This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. Well, there's so many people that have asked me, what did you do in Japan when you left Tassahara? What was that like? So I thought that I would tell everybody at the same time. So I'm going to tell you that at the end of my talk. The beginning of my talk is going to be about how all this came about. How Zen Center's relationship with Rinsu Nguyen came about.

[01:01]

When you go to, well, you know, just really went to something you already know, that I went to, it was the 500th anniversary of this temple, Suzuki Roshi's temple in Yaizu in Japan, was the occasion. for going to Japan. And so it was a celebration of the 500th anniversary. Although I thought when I went there 35 years ago it was 500th, but anyway. And of course Suzuki Roshi was invited to come to America to be the head priest, or the priest, the resident priest at Sokoji Temple, 1881 Bush Street, San Francisco, 1959.

[02:09]

And he arrived at the end of 59 and started being, that's when he was, came to America. He said, when I came to America, I didn't read any books about San Francisco or look at a map or think about it, I just came so that I could see with my own eyes without any information, so I could see directly without preconceptions. So when he left and came to America, it was only supposed to be temporarily. for some short time, some period of time. And when he came, Americans started sitting with him around 1960. And then Zen Center gradually formed around Suzuki Roshi.

[03:16]

And then Zen Center became such a prominent practice that we decided to buy a building, which we did at 300 Page Street, 1969. And then Suzuki Roshi decided that he would be our teacher rather than... And he had to resign from Sokoji, which was very hard for him. But he decided that he would go our way. So when he went back to Japan, stepped down as... the abbot of Rinsuin. And Hoitsu, his 25-year-old son, took his place. And he didn't like that so much, Hoitsu. So he had problems with his father. So in order to get to Rinsuin, Rinsuin is in a small town called Yaizu.

[04:25]

which is a fishing village on the coast, right in the middle of, on the Pacific, right in the middle of Japan, and sort of, and near Shizuoka, Shizuoka Prefecture. And the temple is at the foot of a mountain, Sakamoto, Sakamoto means the foot of the mountain. small mountain. So in order to get there from San Francisco, you take a plane for 10 hours to Narita Airport, and then you get a train or a bus to Tokyo Station about an hour, and then you transfer and get a train to Shizuoka about an hour. And then you take a train from Shizuoka to Yaizu, the local train, about a half hour.

[05:32]

Then you take a taxi to Sakamoto, 1400 Sakamoto. Of course, it's the only thing there. It's got a fancy address. So it's quite a trip just to get there, actually. But it's a wonderful temple. It's probably more than 500 years old. Kind of good a bit. So it's more than 500 years old. And so it has... cemetery is surrounded by cemeteries which is typical of country temples and even city temples in Japan because temples in Japan since the Meiji era 1850s had become family temples the emperor

[06:53]

released the monks from the monasteries and allowed them to get married. I don't know, either forced or allowed. I hear, I'm not sure whether it's coerced or allowed. But anyway, that's controversial. But they left the monasteries, not completely, but the strength of the monasteries is weakened. And local temples became... family temples and all of the families in Japan had to register with the temple that's how they kept the census and control so Yaizu I mean Rinsuin became one of those temples of course and it's been that way ever since so that's why they have so many cemeteries and

[07:54]

And taking care of people's families and doing the ceremonies, funeral ceremonies, memorial ceremonies, that's what supports the temples in Japan. Each one of them has a zendo, but nobody ever sits in them. So I'll tell you about that. Rinsuin also has this beautiful garden in the back. It's just weeks of years and years of use. When I first came there, this is in 1984, I came to Rinsuin to have Dharma transmission with Hoitsu. Now, Suzuki Roshi came in 1959 and died in 1971.

[09:01]

And in 1971, Richard Baker became Abbot of Zen Center. He was Abbot for 12 years, till 83. And then he had his big falling out. And Katagiri Roshi became Abbot for one year. Katagiri practiced with us for many years before he went to Minnesota. And then after that, Reb became abbot. And then while he was abbot, I became co-abbot. In 1988, I became co-abbot. But in 1944, I went to Rinsoen to have Dharma transmission. So Bill Kwong, myself, and Les K, Kato-san, received Dharma's transmission from Hoitsu.

[10:05]

We were the only three that did that because he was completing Suzuki Roshi's Dharma transmission, which Suzuki Roshi didn't have time before he died. Technically, it's Hoi Tzu's Dharmon Transmission, but actually he's doing it for his father because he didn't really know us. So Bill Kwan went to have Dharmon Transmission much earlier, but Bill fell out with Zen Center and he wasn't practicing as a Zen Center student anymore. I managed to stay with Zen Center. And so when I had Dharma transmission, that created the connection between Rin Soe and Zen Center.

[11:11]

And that's when Huichu started relating to Zen Center and relating to people and coming over and so forth. But that was not easy because he had a lot of resentments against his father. His father left him with the temple to go with his American students in America. And what were they doing anyway? So he didn't feel so good about what we were doing. He didn't know what we were doing. So our relationship with him started then. It was really quite wonderful because we had to get down to the bottom of ourselves in our meeting in order to do the Dharma transmission. It couldn't just be some perfunctory thing. It had to be real. And in that one month, our relationship became real, our understanding with each other.

[12:21]

So when I first got to Rinsuin, it was very, they were actually a kind of primitive place. Every night, you know, they take, Japanese people take baths all the time. And the furu, which is the bathtub, is filled with hot water. The father takes the, they all wash first, of course. The father takes the bath. first in lobster hot water, and then the kids in order of age, and then the mothers last. I wish that I was last, but they always made me be first, because I was the guest. And in order to get the hot water, they did have a tank, a water tank, but you had to build a fire under it, a wood fire under the tank to heat the hot water. So it was our job to do, to make the fire every night.

[13:26]

And the kitchen was this little room with a two-burner stove, a two-burner electric stove, and they made all their meals on this. It was the most fabulous place to eat, because they made this great food. And then they'd sit around this table. So because of our relationship to Japan and the shimucho, this is a big complicated thing which I can't possibly go through with you. So it's all related to our relationship to the Soto School and to Houitsu and to Zen Center and to... Registration with... Someday I'll tell you the story of how we actually registered with Japan. It's pretty amazing.

[14:29]

It's like we had to fake everything. A lot of water under the bridge. Everybody's... There's been a lot of transformations, you know. This, you know, is the beginning of transformations of how the Soto School relates to us and how we relate to the Soto School. It's been escalating ever since. So... people in Yaizu would see foreigners getting off the train and getting a taxi to Minsuen. And they were kind of impressed by that.

[15:33]

What is going on here that all these foreigners are coming to Minsuen? People in town really knew nothing about what Suzuki Roshi was doing or who he was, even. But little by little, they began to kind of see what Huizu was doing. And little by little, he started building up the temple. When we got there, the zendo was a storeroom. So we emptied out the storeroom and restored it to a zendo. Because we wanted to sit there. We thought, we came to Japan. Let's sit sasen here, right? Isn't that what you would want to do? Of course. So we emptied out, and we just said, okay, go ahead and do what you want. So little by little, we had an influence there.

[16:34]

And when I went there the first time, his kids were just babies. And now... Hoitsu's son is actually running the temple. He's in his 30s. He's graduated from Eheiji Monastery, and he's actually running the temple. Hoitsu is now the godo, or the seido, or godo, at Eheiji Monastery. he's the head of the practice, and they love him. Every semester, I guess you call it, they ask the monks which teachers they like the best, and he always comes out way on top.

[17:36]

We thought, well, maybe he's Suzuki Roshi's son, but Who is he? But we found out that he's actually somebody. He's actually a great teacher. And he takes absolutely no nonsense from anybody, but he's a great clown. He's a great clown. When he first came here, his English wasn't very good. So he'd communicate by acting like a frog, jumping around like a frog or like a gorilla. And everybody was just in stitches. And this is how he communicated with us and how he made contact. He can see right through everybody. He knows exactly who everybody is. You can't fool him.

[18:41]

little by little the relationship with us and Rinso and with Shumucho has created a situation where there have many more Danka Danka in Japan are the members of the temple so I heard that they have 800 families which is a lot so Whereas before, when I first went there, it was very few. It's called the fish temple. They have the second biggest small town, but they have the second biggest fish market in Japan. It's really great to walk through the fish market if you like fish. Everybody talks to you and they want to sell you something and talk to you. They just want to talk to you. So during certain times of the year, people contribute fish to the temple.

[19:50]

And then they have all these fish and you have to eat them. It's a good thing. All at once. Sometimes they have festivals. And people bring pottery, local people bring pottery and various things to sell in the courtyard. And it's great, really wonderful. And we made, when I was, every once in a while, Blanche likes to go there and do sashim with us. So I went on a trip like that. A number of us went. And several trips, actually. And so we made pancakes. And their pancakes sound like hotcakes.

[20:57]

So we have some relationship to the people around there. So in this 500th anniversary, they sent us two tickets to Zen Center. two airline tickets to, they didn't say who to invite, but the Abbots invited Blanche and I to go. So we went to Japan. I have to say the family, Hoetsu's son, his two daughters, and his wife, and his son's wife. The two daughters help, but the son and his wife, Chitose, Hoise's wife, and Shungo's wife, they just work all the time. I've never seen them stop. They're just totally busy from morning to night, happily. Happily.

[21:59]

You never see them unhappy. And they're always serving everybody. If somebody comes, oh, hi, it's great to just arrive there and, oh, no, no, no, no. So when we arrived for this ceremony, you know, there are priests all over the place, local priests, because this is an old temple. And this temple has child temples and grandchild temples. And so Rinsoen is kind of like the old temple that is the focal point. So they all come and do various celebrations and ceremonies at Rinsuin. One time I was there, and they had a young boys' retreat.

[23:02]

And the place was just full of these young boys. And the priests took care of them. They were their teachers and their, you know, caretakers. And it was wonderful, absolutely wonderful. And at the end, they lit up all these firecrackers in the courtyard. And the smoke was so thick, you know, you could hardly stand it. But they all have fun. Somehow they all have fun, you know. It's amazing. And they're keeping the boys occupied so they're all having fun. They're not, you know, getting into mischief and stuff. They're all enjoying it. So when we got to Rintsuen, it was, you know, everybody, all the family was totally busy and getting everything prepared and so forth. And of course, we always helped do that. But for us, we just kind of stood out of the way.

[24:05]

The temple has one side is the family side. The other side is the the monk side, so to speak. And of course, when you get there, you set up yourself in the monk side. It's kind of like camping. And you go to the other side for meals. And recently they built a new house, which is the family house. And it's like a modern house. Except everybody's still sitting on the floor. It's kind of strange. No chairs. A few chairs. So we had three days of ceremonies. And the ceremonies, the place was full of the Danka, the members, for all three days.

[25:08]

And they were different members each day. And so they kept repeating it. I don't know what they were saying, but they kept repeating these ceremonies over and over. I mean, like seiza, bowing, chanting, circumambulating while chanting. And pretty soon you got the format, you know. They'd have like three ceremonies in the morning, three ceremonies in the afternoon, and day after day it was like that. And I was thinking, well, aren't they going to have a... kind of a festival or something to celebrate? No. And I was wondering why. They had vegetarian food, which was the first time I've ever experienced that. And I don't know why. Fukushima, where they had the fallout, nobody talked about it, but in the paper I saw a circle.

[26:08]

And in the circle was various cities and towns. And outside of the circle was other towns. I think that in Shizumoka, there was a little bit of fallout. Not much, but a little bit. But nobody, you know, mentioned anything about it. But I just wonder if, you know, they feel that... fish is okay to eat. You don't hear much about it anymore. It's past the high point of the news. And if you want to know anything about it, you have to want to look it up. I think they're a little apprehensive, as you would be. But I find it interesting. I thought, well, is it they're not having fish because of the fallout?

[27:15]

Or because Huizu now is living at the Heiji where they don't eat fish? Maybe he's just turned over into a vegetarian diet, but I don't think so, knowing him. But it was wonderful. The ceremonies, I was invited to lead one of the ceremonies and to give a talk, a little talk, five minutes, which is each ceremony was led by a different priest. So that was kind of nice. That was kind of a first, I think, to have a gaijin do that. I also did that at the heiji some years ago. Reb and I were part of the ceremony at Aegean. But we had a good time.

[28:18]

It was exciting, we had a good time. Do you have any questions? I have no idea. I don't know. But from Dogen, Kone Eijo and Tetsugikai, and from Gikai, there are certain ancestors that are in Suzuki Roshi's lineage. But the lineage has started dividing, you know, after Keisan. The lineages start dividing and you have, but I think there are ancestors that are in Suzuki Roshi's lineage up to Dogen, Keisan.

[29:30]

I can't tell you which ones they are. Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. So as time went by, they started coming here, and they still do, and they enjoy coming here, and they usually come here when we have a mountain seat ceremony, and at other times. transformed a little bit by his experience of coming here. Oh, yeah. And has carried that over into, you know, being Godo Roshi at Aegean.

[30:33]

And I've heard people say that maybe he's actually transformed the culture of Aegean a little bit. It's a little less militaristic and a little more bling, perhaps. Well, that's my feeling. My feeling, it goes, you know, there's a word that they have, which I can't remember. They always have a word for everything. But there's a word that they have, which means it's coming back. You know, something's coming back here. We put something out there and something's coming back. And I really think that's true. And I think that he was very much influenced by us over time. And I can remember when he was very... skeptical and little by little he became converted and I remember going with him to the office in the Shumacho which is the administration of the Soto School and bawling these guys out for not recognizing us and I could hear there was a lot of

[31:47]

anger going back and forth between him and these guys. And he was putting himself out there, you know, defending us. Defending is not the right word, but upholding our side. He helped Reb and I give Dharma transmission. We learned how to do that from Hoitsu. And he taught us how to do this in the most formal way. Very few people in Japan do it as formally as we do, or in America for that, as far as that goes. But he taught us how to do it in the most formal way. And so that's our tradition.

[32:49]

I would have thought, you know, when Shakyamuni ordained people, he just said, follow me. That was the ordination. I always liked that. But I also liked the way we do the formal Dharma transmission. I think it's really, it becomes very meaningful. It's very meaningful when you go through that process. So we owe a lot to him, and he owes a lot to us, and it's a really great relationship. And when you go to the temple, now, there's always a lot of little kids, you know, about the age of our kids, and they live on the floor. I think that's a wonderful way to live, with kids, because they're not looking up at you.

[33:53]

Everybody's down on the same level. It's a different kind of life. There's a different intimacy with the kids. Do you think the Shugo? Shungo. And younger teachers here, I'm thinking, I don't know, at some point, you and Ravel Fasan, do you think their relationship will continue? You think so? Oh, yeah, the relationship will continue. I'm sure the relationship will continue. Well, Shungo, that's interesting. Shungo... I think he's getting there. I think that somebody like Greg should go over there and engage him. I think he should meet the young priest.

[35:01]

You should invite him here to come and you don't have to invite him for a whole practice period or something but just invite him to come and see what happens. There will always be that relationship but I think that that's necessary. That's really necessary. You say, Reb and I will pass on. Well, what makes you think that? Yeah. A few years ago, when Graham and I went to AHA and we met with Huitzu, we invited him to do a practice period here at Tassahara. And he was so tickled. He was just, you know. Which one was tickled? Huitzu. Huitzu. Oh, leading the president, yeah. Yeah, it's not a feasible thing, but yeah.

[36:02]

But he was tickled, yeah. Yeah. So it needs to be engaged. You guys should engage him. When you go to Rinsowin, he doesn't speak English so well. Well, that's typical. If you're Japanese and you can't speak English perfectly, you don't say anything. But I always encourage, you know, I say, oh, that's really great. You know, English is really good. And they're stumbling around. But they have to stumble around, otherwise they can't engage. Stumbling around is good. What are you guys? So this is kind of mysterious to a lot of us. Yes. Yeah. It's kind of part of your question as well is, what do you think our relationship should be like to ?

[37:19]

Yes. That's right. So I've been instrumental in the relationship since the beginning of relating to them. And I can't tell you what a difficult story it is. I always did this because I thought, well, you know, I'm not expecting anything. We just relate. And after about 500 years, we may be on the same page. But I wasn't in a hurry to do that. But the last couple of years, there's been more activity. And so the thing is that we just have a different practice. I remember when Suzuki Roshi was around.

[38:22]

some Shimucho dignitaries would come to Sokoji and bawl out Suzuki Roshi and Katagiri and say, what are you doing? What are you doing here? We don't understand yet. What are you doing? Of course, we're not doing funeral ceremonies. We're not doing all that stuff that they do. We're sitting Zazen. So... You know, the thing is that they have a kind of formality that runs their life. We do too. But they can't get off the wheel. And for us to hook up with their style is impossible. In the first place, you didn't go to... Komozawa University for four years, before you were ordained.

[39:28]

If you do a practice period, an ango in Japan, you can be called a teacher. We spend 20 years practicing before we call somebody a teacher. Our standards are much higher than theirs, even though their standards are more formal than ours. Formality is everything. You think we're formal? In other words, they have a status quo. So in the status quo, you just keep things going and you don't make waves. We're like... Indians in the woods. We're creative. We want to be creative. And so we're in the process of creating our practice in the 21st century.

[40:34]

And they're keeping their practice going from the 16th century. So you want to go back to the 16th century? I mean, it's interesting. Yeah. It sounds like our larger sangha is a sort of dangka. We seem to be a sort of dangka member of Rinzai. I'm wondering if we support Rinzai financially or otherwise. No. No. No. We don't support Rinzai. No, we're not that. We don't have that kind of relationship. Our relationship is a spiritual relationship, not a formal relationship. And if we were to be connected with the Shumucho in that way, we would be supporting, we would be paying dues to them.

[41:40]

And... They, you know, their members are contributors. Our members are Zazen practitioners. We don't have a Dhaka. Zen Center has a kind of Dhaka of people who just come to listen to lecture or, you know, belong to a church. But Zen in America is not like that, basically. Right. Yes, you do. There is a kind of Danka. You could call it that, I suppose. My temple, I don't have Danka. The members support the temple.

[42:47]

I mean, the members who practice support the temple. I never wanted to have a Danka. And I have a little trouble with that with Zen Center. It's all right. But the problem is... Anyway, I don't want to talk about the problem. I like grassroots zen. Anyway, it's getting a little late, right? So someday, you know, This needs to be talked about. This relationship with the shimucho needs to be talked about. I just don't know how to talk about it. What I really need to do is write it out.

[43:48]

I really need to write it out. The history of our relationship to Japan. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[44:21]

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