This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. It is a great pleasure to introduce a longtime friend of San Francisco Zen Center, benefactor of San Francisco Zen Center, Kaz Tanahashi Sensei. Noted. Noted. bibliographer, token scholar, translator, Zen teacher, environmentalist, peace worker. I hope I haven't left anything out. It's a great pleasure to have you join us tonight and share with us something about ours. Thank you very much. Good evening.

[01:02]

Something is... Oh, I see the microphone is touching the clocks. It's wonderful to see you. being in Tassara together with you. Dr. Puderike Boasovam has been kindly assisting me in my workshop. She's also the Tassara Physician of the Week. She was talking about why Tassara is so spiritual for her and she said

[02:06]

the schedule, silence, rituals, they all kind of help. And also, I said, maybe meditation brings us deeper and deeper in our consciousness. And this is expressed in the way of vowing, walking, working, interacting with others, expressing the landscape, and everything about Tashara. That makes Tashara a very spiritual place, so we can all come back and renew and deepen our spirituality. And I'm deeply grateful for Tasara and residents, practitioners, teachers, visitors, all these friends who are helping to maintain Tasara health.

[03:25]

The Heart Sutra is a very short sutra most widely recited scripture in Mahayana Buddhism. In its short form, it expresses selfless experience of meditation and suggests how this experience can transcend our usual way of thinking. and living. And that's why Hatsutra is so important, but also it's so difficult. It's an enigma, a millennium-old enigma, because how we can be fully selfless, it's impossible.

[04:33]

And then how do we act on that? It is impossible. So in a way, it requires a constant practice in facing the teaching. I like to kind of make a public confession about my early times at San Francisco Zen Center, my experience. It was not so good. But I wrote it in my book, so it's already, completion has been made, so I'd like to just leave a poem. In 1977, I moved to the United States. to be a scholar in residence at the San Francisco Zen Center.

[05:36]

I sat regularly, but not as seriously as most of my fellow meditators. Chanting the Hatsutra in Japanese and English was part of the center's daily routine. I would often go astray and think about the meaning of the words in the sutra as well as their alternative translations, and usually I would get lost. At times I could not help being self-conscious. As the only native speaker in the crowd, I was supposed to recite the Japanese version fluently, but instead I was the one who kept stumbling. So you can see that this is sort of my, you know, problem, but also maybe kind of laid my foundation that my kind of questioning of the world.

[06:51]

And then I think maybe about 2002 or so, when I was participating meditation in the Black Forest Monastery, in southern Germany. In one period, all the translation, kind of new translation kind of emerged. And then I went back to my room and then kind of typed in my computer. And then I took this new translation to Interlaken, Switzerland, where I met John Halifert Rossi, And then she and I worked on refining the wording. That time, we didn't have an alternative translation for emptiness.

[07:53]

I felt maybe emptiness is a good translation, but in a way it has a problem. we feel empty or an empty promise, but we have some problem with the word. So I wanted to have something more positive. And then I went to Vienna and saw my wife's cousin Hans. And he said, Hey, Kaz, I can... take you anywhere in Vienna, you just name it. So I said, how about Freud House? And he said, gee, I've never been there. It was funny because he lives in Vienna, he's Jewish, and he's a Freudian psychoanalyst. LAUGHTER So we took a streetcar and then we walked together.

[09:01]

And then I stumbled. And then all of a sudden the kind of translation boundlessness came. So maybe our translation is a result of my Freudian slip. So we should thank Dr. Freud for our boundless boundless, gooder nature. Anyway. So this is a new translation. I'm publishing it. And this intention is not to replace any existing common translation that you've been chanting for many years, but maybe to clarify some of the wordings and also maybe to help maybe think about the the actual intention of the sutra I think that as you know the sutra is full of negation no eyes no ears but it doesn't mean no eyes exist and so forth

[10:28]

So there must be something about this negation. And then I think there are at least four types of negations. One is straight. This is not it. This is not good. Another is affirmative negation. There is no question about it. You use negative form, but you affirm. a fact or a statement. And then transcendental negation, which is not one, not two. So it's going to go beyond that. And finally, negation that indicates freedom. So you don't need to do it. That means you have freedom not to do things. And I think... Most of the negations of the Heart Sutra is this freedom.

[11:36]

Not to be stuck to this. And then I'm not a good reader, so I kind of found a good one, Robin, who practices with Tenshin Roshi. So... Thank you so much. So, reading it. who listens to the teachings of Buddha. Form is not separate from boundlessness. Boundlessness is not separate from form. Form is boundlessness.

[12:36]

Boundlessness is form. Feelings, perceptions, inclinations, and discernment are also like this. O Shariputra, boundlessness is the nature of all things. It neither rises nor perishes, neither stains nor purifies, neither increases nor decreases. Boundlessness is not limited by form, nor by feelings, perceptions, inclinations, or discernment. It is free of the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, and mind, free of sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, and any object of mind, free of sensory realms, including the realm of the mind. It is free of ignorance and the end of ignorance. Boundlessness is free of old age and death, and free of the end of old age and death.

[13:40]

It is free of suffering, arising, cessation, and path, and free of wisdom and attainment. Being free of attainment, those who have all to awaken, abide in the realization of wisdom beyond wisdom, and live with an unhindered mind. Without hindrance, the mind has no fear. Free from confusion, those who lead all to liberation and body who confound to serenity. All of those in the past, present, and future who realize wisdom beyond wisdom manifest unsurpassable and thorough awakening. Know that realizing wisdom beyond wisdom is no other than this wondrous mantra, luminous, unequal, and supreme. It relieves all suffering. It is genuine, not illusory. So set forth this mantra of realizing wisdom beyond wisdom. Set forth this mantra that says, gate, gate, paragate, parasangate, belief.

[14:47]

Any comments or responses or questions? Yes. I really appreciate hearing that. I never actually felt like the words of the Heart Sutra were so clearly describing what it feels like. Thank you. Any questions? I think, you know, it's sort of half and half. Half of the people are sort of annoyed. And it should be fine. And then half of you appreciate, you know, having kind of, instead of empty, and we feel without boundary. Any other comments or questions?

[15:59]

I like the word boundless. The boundless is like both things. Yes. I'm sort of using the word emptiness as being, communicating emptiness and separation, that nothing can be created in and of itself So when there's no nose, no eyes, it means that an eye can't exist simply by itself. It's created from so many layers and infinite number of things. Do you feel, obviously, that boundlessness has some of that same expression? No, I think each word has different energy. I think people like the cutting quality of no, no, no. And, you know, empty, empty, empty. I think, in a way, stronger. Some people like that.

[17:03]

My wife, Linda, says, you know, I like to deny things. When I chant the Heart Sutra and deny everything, I feel so good. And very, very important, having quality, you know. And we are sort of compromising that. Thank you. Yes? Could you speak a little bit more about your reading of the Hara Sutra as your employing negation of freedom? Well, first of all, maybe I'd like to say... The original Sanskrit word for emptiness or boundlessness is shunyata.

[18:04]

Shunyata means zero. Even in Hindi, which is related to Sanskrit, more than Hindi, one minus one equals shunyata. So shunyata is zero-ness. And zero can be nothing or just nothing. But also maybe zero is powerful, as you can see in mathematics, especially in the binary system. Zero, one. Zero and one. creates other numbers and other letters and words and then concepts and then sentences and then writings and then colors and shapes and movement and scenes and sound and everything.

[19:15]

So zero is so important. And in a way, shunya is kind of zero-ness. And so zero-ness of what? Zero-ness of independent, kind of permanent nature of individual and also all things. Things are all related. And we cannot really have permanent boundaries we have boundaries but it changes all the time we need to keep boundaries of course and so that's maybe common wisdom common wisdom is as important as prajna which is wisdom beyond wisdom which is a transcendental wisdom wisdom of oneness

[20:22]

and of experiencing all things as one, one mind, one life, one world. So that's difficult, it's easy to say, but to really experience it and to enact on that, it takes a kind of continuous practice. do that but without having this wisdom beyond wisdom we are just kind of this only self-centered we are born and then kind of live to be self-centered which is very natural nothing wrong about it you know we have our body we have to take care of that we have our position, our family, and the project we have to take care of that.

[21:26]

So, you know, being self-centered is a very natural thing. But if we are only self-centered, maybe we keep fighting. And then we are insensitive to others and other beings and other things. So we need to have both, you know. And we need to have some interaction which is... which makes sense to everybody. Any questions? Yes. In the transaction you both say free from anguish and suffering. And I wonder if you could talk about the relationship here. Yeah, the... I think suffering dukkha I think I know we have sufferings like maybe suffering from social problems like war and then suffering from our physical pain, injury and so forth, right?

[22:49]

and Also maybe suffering is more existential suffering. We are anxious about kind of our life. We are bound to die and so forth. So there's maybe suffering have two faults. And I think maybe to understand that all things are connected release us from kind of maybe existential pain. You know, not just... It doesn't relieve us from the problem of war or problem with our physical injury or things like that. So maybe we try to say that it's an outcast. Yes. Thank you.

[23:50]

So recently, the scholarship on the Hatsutra really developed. 1992, Dr. Jan Nathieh, US Buddhist scholar, published a stunning theory that maybe Hatsutra didn't come from India it was assembled in China and what she did was she compared the kind of early well people believed first of all that the Hatsutra Most part of the Hatsutra came from the big Fajima Paramita Sutra, Realizing Wisdom Beyond Wisdom Sutra, which emerged around the time of Christ, first century before the common era and then first century common era.

[25:15]

So that was the first Mahayana scripture. So that maybe the earliest one was 8,000 line and 100,000 line and 250,000 line so one very small part of the 250,000 line is taken and then they correspond exactly so her theory is that maybe Hatsutra can be divided into three parts. One is the Avalokiteshvara part. The main part is the Sunyata part. And then the last part is Mantra. So she compared the early manuscript of the 250,000 line Federal Parameter Big Sutra

[26:23]

almost like miracles, some fragments were found in Gilgit, in Northern Pakistan, present day Pakistan. And then this fragment contains the section that corresponds to the Hatsutra Sanskrit. So she compared and then she suggested that the Sanskrit Hatsutra didn't come directly from the earlier Rajinopamita literature or by structure. There must be something in between. Because she kind of noticed that there is a very similar content, but the terms and grammar are different. So, you know, there must be somewhere in between.

[27:25]

So her theory was that there was a Chinese virgin. So somebody, maybe in China, put these three things together. A balapetra was very important to China. Goddess for compassion. Very popular. more than in India or Central Asia. And then, of course, I had this Prajna teaching of the Sunyata, which is a central teaching of Vahana Buddhism. The mantra represents Vajrayana Buddhism, which was writing in India and China. So these three kind of important elements maybe a Chinese monk together.

[28:27]

And then I studied her theory carefully, and then I support her theory. And this is the first book actually to officially kind of support her theory. You know, for 20 years, people talked about it, and then there were Two very negative comments by Japanese expert and also by Red Pine. They sort of... They denied her theory. So I'm happy to be the first person to really support her theory. I think her theory is a great theory. So that means... most part of the Hatsutra we are chanting is about 2000 years old so you whether we call it no eyes no ears or it's free from life it's so old so ancient and the

[29:51]

English version and then all the European versions are based on Shanzan's Chinese translation of the Heart Sutra. Transcript into Chinese. Shanzan was a Chinese monk of the 7th century and he wanted to go to india and to get to study sanskrit and then study all the buddhist uh disciplines and then um bring some important scriptures commentaries to china so it was prohibited so much he just alone uh crossed the gobi desert and then uh gave hammer talks in different uh kingdoms on the way, and then primarily went to the Alanda Monastery University, and then studied.

[31:04]

After 18 months outside of China, he brought us a great number of Buddhist scriptures, and then Emperor Tai, the second emperor of Tang Dynasty, forgive him for disobeying his law, but he really supported the national project of translating with his texts into Chinese from Sanskrit. And so that's kind of what we use. and then later this maybe there was an English I mean Sanskrit version and then it was expanded the introductory part of thus have I heard was added and then the last part Buddha would pray in above this chapter

[32:20]

and encourage everyone to practice this longer version was created but the middle version is the same short version and mostly this shorter version Hatsutra was recited and practiced in China, Korea, Japan, and Vietnam, where these Chinese idiogas are used. And then where Tibetan Buddhism is practiced, Tibet, Nepal, Bhutan, and Mongolia has been recited. Any comments or questions?

[33:22]

Yeah, we should end in 10 minutes. I wonder, in your practice, that you able to kind of have some breakthrough, like for mind opening, to understand the Heart Sutra. Is any of your work, like professional or anything, contribute to the component like concentration, energy, tranquility, everything that make you able to kind of like have the opening to understand the wisdom of the Heart Sutra? Well, I'm not sure I understand the Heart Sutra. That's why I wrote my book. But I think, you know, the questioning, you know, It's an enigma. I mean, why we should be free from even Four Noble Truths, which is the most important teaching about suffering and freedom of suffering and doing awesome practice and then become free from

[34:49]

suffering um so um heart sutra is a big challenge in a way so this book is meant to be a kind of comprehensive guide so uh about history and then terms sanskrit and chinese terms and also comparative uh linguistic studies. For example, Maha Prajna Paramita. So Maha is just, you know, there is a big language family, called the Indo-European language family. So Sanskrit is related to many languages, Latin and Greek, all this connected. So the Maha is a relative English word, mega.

[36:00]

Prajna is, pra is like related to proposition pro, like prominent, kind of super. And then junior is related to the English word gnostic. So, J and G are kind of related, and G and K are sisters. So, you know, in English you don't pronounce K, but Gnosis, you know, so, wisdom, knowledge. Paramita is really going beyond. And the heart, Vida, is related to the English word cardia, as in cardiology.

[37:10]

Vida, the H, and the K are sort of related. Sutra is of course related to the English word sutra. So in sutra, it is kind of string together. So it's such a short sutra, but it has over 30 connections you can find between English and Sanskrit languages. Yes? It's the heart of great perfect wisdom sutra. Did you ever wonder why it's being preached by the Bodhisattva of compassion? I think, you know, it's very interesting and it's inspiring that maybe personification of...

[38:18]

Compassion is here about the sutra of wisdom beyond wisdom. So maybe that shows that these are not separate. You know, wisdom beyond wisdom is compassion. Compassion is wisdom beyond wisdom. Yes. Yes. Yes. more on the lines of doctrinal and historical explanation, saying that, you know, because it was argued with earlier Buddhism, it had to be situated in the time. But your own experience, I'm asking, do you think that you are direct experience of being inspired to rewrite the Heart Sutra encourages you as well to embrace Mathieu's presentation of a Chinese rewriting?

[39:42]

I don't really understand your question. When that means describing someone from China who comes from a culture that values Avalokiteshvara and was inspired to rewrite the Heart Sutra. Well, to assemble it. To assemble it and... There was no Heart Sutra before that. someone assembled it. But to write it in Sanskrit as though, wasn't it also rewritten in an earlier language? Well, her theory is back translation. That means Chinese came first and then Sanskrit existed. And she sort of suggested that it was a kind of a forgery or sort of some creation Shanzang kind of was maybe the biggest suspect of the ones who actually created the Sanskrit project and I questioned you know did he have a kind of an intention to deceive everyone say okay you know

[41:17]

Sanskrit Hatsutra, I discovered it. But he actually composed it. And then I found a kind of text that was discovered in Donson by Stein, a British archaeologist. Well, he led the British archaeological team. He was a Hungarian. So this, I'm showing this photograph of this piece. It was written over 100 years after Shanzong's death. But it says, this Sanskrit version, Hatsutra, was given by Abawakiteshwara personally to... Triptaka Dharma Master Shenzhen.

[42:23]

So these people at that time believed that this was Shenzhen's mystic experience. And then this was actually translated four days before the death of Emperor Tai, his lifetime supporter. And when, you know, you meet it as kind of desperately want something, what would they do? You know, they would pray for their guardian deity and then receive it, you know, during meditation. And then, you know, I think all the, at least most of the Mahayana sutras are conceived that way. You know, they are received during the meditation. So that is how, kind of, I feel.

[43:24]

This was Chang Zan's mystic experience, yes. And so then, when you were meditating and were inspired during a practice in the Black Forest to rewrite the heart, to get that direct experience of being so inspired, encourage you to trust that story or that truth of inspiration that you feel this Chinese scholar had also been inspired by? Well, I don't have my personal kind of protecting deity. I don't pray to the deity. I don't ask. inspiration from my deity and in a way towards my kind of it just came from my kind of background stumbling all the time thinking about alternative transitions so I guess maybe I should tell you about the mantra and then we'll conclude this evening

[44:46]

Gathe, Gathe is usually translated well we don't translate the mantra but because we try not to think of the meanings but the Lama and everyone has been interpreted so usually interpreted as gone, gone, gone all the way, gone all the way together body, enlightenment flaha is a joy or a blessing. And then I studied the Sanskrit word gam, which is the source of gāti. Gam is related to the English word, and also go, in different roots. And one form of gam is gāti. And gāti means arriving or coming. So, um, I would interpret it as arriving, arriving all together, arriving all together, all the way, awakening, joy.

[46:06]

And I think, you know, it goes with our teacher Dogen's idea, each moment of practices, not separate from awakening. Each moment is full. So each moment we arrive together. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[46:49]

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