This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. wanted to take a moment just to thank everyone for practicing and supporting the Sashim everyone doing their part to make it harmonious and smooth and helping each other all of Tessa are working together each person in their

[01:02]

which is unassailable. It's unique. I had mentioned one of the lectures about the kind of natural purification of the sense organs during a session and in reviewing the chapter of the Lotus Sutra where it brings this up chapter 19 the blessings of the Dharma teachers I think is the name of it one translation and it it talks about when This is in terms of the Lotus Sutra when you take it up, read it, recite it, study it, share it, expound it with others.

[02:09]

This teaching of basically one Buddha nature. Your, and then it lists in each section, eyes, ears, your sense of your eyes, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, and your mind. Those organs, it says, are given you by your mother and father. So it's not saying these are sort of the Dharma eye and the Buddha eye or the Buddha ears. It's your very sex organs become purified and then they list what you're able to see and hear and smell and taste And the way lotus, you know, lotus, you know, in reading, I'd say, oh, I can't, I'm not hearing that, or smelling that, because it really expands it.

[03:19]

But I think we do find in a long sitting, or even a one-day sitting, coming out of greenhouse and seeing all the little grasses waving, hi, how you doing? There's some green. And they're always like that, but I don't pay much attention. Maybe you should. So maybe you've noticed a lightness, a cuteness of smell and hearing and visual things that just, it's not why we sit in order to be cascaded into a more vibrant sensory realm. But it comes along. And I remember this occurred to me during seshing. There was a person in a practice period who I, you know, had a judgment about their looks.

[04:25]

I thought that they were kind of a homely person, not very attractive or quite unattractive, you know. way one has these views that come and go. Anyway, during Sashin, or right after Sashin, I looked at this person and they were, they just looked so beautiful to me. This person that I had always had this judgment about. And part of it was, what I recall was they were very relaxed, their face And their eyes were kind of bright and shiny. And I remember talking with this person, and their breath smelled like a field of wildflowers. It was like the purifying of the body, really. And I was kind of amazed that there was this transformation, you know, of this person who I had a little love.

[05:30]

not so much affinity for and here they had transformed into this sort of bigger body kind of person and you know it was that was they were expressing their position who they were at that moment and I too was seeing and hearing and spelling and I just felt the miraculous copy of that rather than holding to fixed views you know this person is thus and so and they always will be and it was it isn't so not always so so just acknowledging how you might be feeling in the body not everyone of course one's energy, one's just our regular sense organs, which are inconceivable, actually, our regular old sense organs.

[06:45]

In talking about the pentacle rising earlier, one of those lectures earlier on, you know, when this arises, this comes to be, and our sense organs, Our five skandhas, the sense organs being in the first skanda, rupa skanda, except for mind, are arising dependently, interdependently. So our regular old five skandhas are beyond ability to name even what it is. And always changing. And another way to talk about this is Buddha nature or justice.

[07:48]

I also wanted to mention again that we're having a ceremony tonight, Shosan ceremony. And Sho San. The San of Shosan is the same San as Doksan, Chosan, and there's other San's. There's Ban San, which Chosan is morning meeting. The San means San is the character used for getting together with the leaders of the practice spirit or the abbess for teachings. And they can either be heard teachings like in a Dharma talk or question and answer kind of meeting. And they could be getting together for tea. Cho San, which hopefully by the end of the practice period everyone will have had Cho San in the Sabbath's cabin. And the San part is prefaced by where it is and what kind of ceremony it is.

[08:57]

So Ban San would be an evening gathering Shosan, a morning gathering, and Shosan, S-H-O Shosan, is gathering, actually the definition is gathering in the abbot's room, but we're doing this question and answer in the Buddha Dharma Hall, Zendo, which is our hall. And that's sometimes called daisan when it's in the Dharma hall. So this is an opportunity to bring forth a question that is real for you and from your heart. And we'll have a chance to have an exchange. And I realize that this may be easier for some people than others.

[10:00]

But I think everyone feels some intensity maybe around ceremonies like this. There was one person in a practice period who did not want to do it and hid in the pine rooms under the bed and wasn't found until she emerged after the ceremony. So I hope nobody... as that. So that will be tonight and as I said the eno will talk more about the particulars. So I also wanted to acknowledge that as well as being purified in some ways we are also after sitting together very open very sensitive sensitive to one another in small ways and very sensitive to things that are maybe coming up for us that maybe have come up before but we've been successful in turning away from it or keeping it kind of keeping a lid on it in some way or not paying attention

[11:26]

actively suppressing it maybe in various ways by being very busy or just keeping active and not allowing. But it's kind of hard to do that after this many days. And things I know for many of you have come up surprisingly strongly. And I really want to acknowledge that and have everyone know that. we're all perhaps very open and not delicate because I feel like, or maybe some people are delicate too, but I feel like people are very grounded and kind of firm and yet feeling things stronger perhaps. And the next thing that I'm going to be bringing up that I wanted to talk about with you may bring up things for you.

[12:36]

Each of us has a different consciousness from one another and have had different experiences, have lived and been brought up in different ways and had experiences, full range in this room of experiences. and current formations. And when I say the full range, I mean agony and ecstasy, you know, the full range in this room. So I wanted to continue with our upright and complete practice of right speech discussion and move into the next the third of these kinds of speech to abandon, and that is one abandons abusive or harsh speech.

[13:43]

And yesterday we talked about harmony of verbal action in the community, and I think we touched on some of the things about harsh or abusive speech that can happen in a community, a family, in work, in society, certainly in public realms and written things. So I did want to say that there's a very strong connection between harsh speech and abusive speech. And another one of the harmonies, the six harmonies, which is the harmony of physicality or bodily harmony. And I think we come to a Zen center or a monastery and don't expect, even though we read in the stories about being, you know, students being hit by the teacher and 30 blows and slapping and all these different things,

[14:58]

My sense is people don't really come to Tassara thinking that that's the practice. They probably haven't heard that that's what's going on there. However, this is our context here, and what Suzuki Roshi's practice was, and I think there are other Zen centers where that may not be so. And I know in some temples or training monasteries, It definitely is not so. The stick is used in various ways that kisaku, as well as a lot of physicality in that, meaning shoving, pushing someone here and there, these kinds of things, which may come from that context, that culture, that temple's tradition, and may be very shocking if you were to. go there and experience that without knowing what you were stepping into.

[16:05]

And I just had a little tiny taste of that at a ceremony at A.H.E. where I was the genius chef for Tenchi Doshi, who was being a Doshi for Dogen's 700th, let's see, what was it? It was in 2000. So it was his 700th. or 2000, anyway, I think it was the memorial service 700th. Anyway, I was a jisha and one of the nuns who was kind of in charge of a group of us, I guess, like bodily, like took a hold of me and shoved me where I was supposed to be standing. And this reaction came up and the words that came up were something like, get your hands off me, lady. Which was very surprising, because I'm sort of more of a mild man. Not always something, but it was like this thing came up in me.

[17:13]

I'm not used to being handled in that way. And I thought, this is great. This is a great practice, you know, to let it go and work with the physical thing that was coming up. And not reacted like, you know, like, I don't know what I would have done. But it was, you know, definitely karmic life meeting a new context. And I think the nun was... I really don't think it was disrespect. It's just that's what you do. If somebody's in the wrong place, you just... Put him over there. Why? And I couldn't understand if she had tried to tell me in a nice way, because there was language barrier. So I didn't think it was coming out of rudeness or disrespect. It was a cultural clash. But even so, there was reaction.

[18:16]

So we don't expect here to encounter that. And I think talking about abusive speech, And harsh speech, we don't expect to encounter that either, I don't think, really. And when we do, when it happens, it strongly affects us. And what may come up from our karmic life is, you can't talk to me like that, or some other wanting to express that physically. you know, it can escalate into something else. And I think this has happened at Zen Center where there's been teasing or begging, kind of begging that has gone on where someone over time, like, keeps at someone in a

[19:24]

We're using maybe harsh or abusive speech over time until someone, you know, has a reaction, even if they remember somebody agreeing out to hit someone in the kitchen. You know, we have intense situations together in our work areas, but we don't expect it, and I think our practice If we confuse the old teaching stories, which people have, I've told this story many times of a small group I led in the Coal Valley, the Tasthar Bakery, and I wasn't there for one of the evenings. They were just going to have us sit and then read Suzuki Rosh or something. And a new person came to the group who was writing a paper about Zen and saw there was a small Zen group in their neighborhood decided to come and see what it was about.

[20:27]

She was going to write this paper. She was in college. And one of the members of the group, when she described this in like a little sharing before, grabbed her by the shirt and shook her around and said, you can't come to her center. Use it for your class. And, you know, that's not respectful or something like that. She thought she was being assaulted, which she was, I think. And he, in the whole big thing afterwards, thought he was being sent. And, you know, just like the stories, you kind of grab somebody. So this can happen where you read those stories. Somebody else did the same thing. They were talking about Chinese medieval breakfast, you know, 800s. In China, they were doing a thing that was like that in China and the 800s of the last earth.

[21:30]

So there could be some mix-up when you read these stories. So the word around, you know, I've been reading from Chinda the Silversmith about verbal purification, unskillful and unskillful. So in terms of right speech, unskillful verbal action, around the abandoning, abusive, or harsh speech, in that Pali Sutta says, those who are unskillful, they speak words that are harsh, cutting, bitter to others, abusive of others, provoking anger, and destroying concentration. So that's the unskillful verbal action around this abusive or harsh speech. the skillful verbal action, they abandon abusive speech.

[22:33]

They abstain from abusive speech. They speak words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing, and pleasing to people at large. And so these words about affectionate and polite and so forth You know, as I say it, the other side, like, well, sometimes it's not going to be pleasing, which I think we've talked about, and we can talk about it more. But under the five keys, you know, am I practicing right speech? You know, is it true? Is it the right type of place? Is it affectionate and gentle as part of that? Is it beneficial? And is it coming from the mind of goodwill? So the speech itself cannot be gentle or not be pleasing and can be sound, harsh, or whatever, if it's coming from the mind of goodwill and compassion.

[23:48]

And that was the skillful means that it was spoken like that. help wake someone up, point something out in a stronger way. So maybe it wasn't pleasing or affectionate, so that depends on time and space, but it has to be coming from the mind of goodwill, or else it's not beneficial, as well as being rude and harsh and abusive. So that's the operative. Where's our mind here? As best as we can. word abuse abuse by deed or word means to use use to use wrongly or inappropriately to hurt injured by maltreatment to assail with contemptuous coarse insulting words to revile and maltreatment so these are

[24:54]

this definition of abuse I wanted to in thinking about this myself and thinking about our karmic life you know as I said each of us is unique in terms of our karmic formations and our backgrounds and all I came from a family where I never ever heard my mother swear you know or use a curse word or my dad I don't think I don't think I heard either of them I was trying to think you know I don't even think my mother said anything like damn right so that that's my karmic and I'm sure there are people who almost only heard you know swear words or this kind of speech and yelling and I also didn't hear much yelling. Nobody raised their voice much.

[25:56]

I think when someone got mad, they didn't talk. I remember some pretty silent dinners. And I remember once my mom leaving the house and taking a walk by the city river. I was like, where'd she go? But I think that was her way of working with anger. So I looked Consequently, I don't think, I think my kids heard me say something once, and it was like, what did she say? So when it comes out, it has a huge effect if you're somebody who doesn't curse and swear and use strong these kinds of speech. But there is a place for it. There's a place for every word and speech. You know, is it the right time and place? That's the question. So we can look at our speech at the purposes of abusive speech or a certain kind of speech.

[27:09]

Is it abusive or not? Maybe it's what makes people trust you in that situation. Because the Buddha, you know, spoke all languages, meaning he... could attune to the people he was speaking with and meet them there. Second, with Guan Yin, Avalokiteshkar, takes any form, speaks any language to bring compassion to a situation. So I don't want to be misunderstood. What is being proscribed is the, you know, hurting, harming, mistreatment, rooting, you know, putting people down, these kinds of things that is not coming from a particular kind of compassion that, you know, chooses those words, but it's from a minor goodwill. I'm talking about true abuse.

[28:16]

So even so, is their habit mind, you know, just, this is how I talk, without much consideration with the effect it has or is it the right time and place. And especially, I think, violent speech. You know, that also, like, what is violent? or in one situation may be acceptable in another. You know, I think this is very fluid. Like when I called Sally Putnam in fifth grade after she missed the softball that I threw her, and that person was safe on base, and I said, you does. This came up, and so she won't be heard.

[29:18]

Sally Putnam's face after I called her a dunce. And that, you know, that went in deeply, you know, to be yelled at by a friend, publicly, and she was just doing her best and missed the ball. And I saw her face. And the tears welling up. And the word dunce You don't hear the word dance down. What does it mean, stupid? It means, oh, you stupid dance. Oh, look it up. But that was like cutting, you know. Me wasn't meant to help her. It was to get something off my chest and blame somebody else that, you know,

[30:21]

So there it is. I think a lot of this kind of speech can be habitual and not thought about so much. So this abandoning it and finding how to, what else might you, you know, this is like a formal constraint. Okay, if I abandon that, maybe what do I say when I'm feeling strongly about something? I can't find any words. That would be interesting. What other words are there that are unused in our vocabulary? So, Suzuki Roshi has this wonderful part of, and not always so. And I think it's in your packet, but I just wanted to bring it out. And he is bringing up five different points of how you bring something up with somebody, maybe when they're angry when they've done a mistake, that is neither abusive nor harsh.

[31:38]

It's the right speech of how we point out mistakes to others. And I feel like Suzuki Roshi's pulling from Dōgen, because if you look in Zuiko-ki, Dōgen says some similar things. So these are five points. that I think we all could pick up. And this is how a teacher points out a student's mistakes. But I feel like we're all each other's teachers and mentors and crew heads and whatever Dharma position we've got, someone we're working with. So how do you point out a mistake, which includes how we might be feeling and also how they're feeling? first of all he starts out if a teacher thinks that what the student is doing is a mistake that's not a true teacher so already by calling it a mistake you've already sealed the bargain that they may have a mistake and what Suzuki Roshi is bringing up is this is an expression of the student's true nature that they

[32:59]

did such a thing that's a bigger and broader way of looking at someone's effort what just happened and then he says when we understand it this way we have respect for our students true nature and we will be careful how we point out the mistake because we can't damage one another really to speak in a coarse, biting, cutting way in trying to point out something that can have a lasting effect on harmony, on our relationship with that person for a long, long time, and also for us when we see the result of our words. So he says in the scriptures there's five points.

[34:01]

So this may be Shakyamuni, I don't know where that is, but it could be in scriptures. The first point is that the teacher has to choose the opportunity and not point out the student's mistake in front of many people. So that, I think that's really important to wait. This is time and place to not point out and embarrass someone in front of others to draw them aside to wait for a time of the two of you can look at together. If possible, the teacher points out the mistake personally in an appropriate time and place. This is Suzuki Roshi. And that might be a kind of touchstone for all of us. You want to... Maybe it's not possible. Maybe you have to do it right then and there or something will happen at the meal or something, but maybe later you go into it more carefully, one-on-one.

[35:07]

Secondly, the teacher is reminded to be truthful, which means the teacher does not point out the disciples' mistakes just because they think it's a mistake. When the teacher understands why the disciple did it, then the teacher can be more truthful. So it's a bigger, broader understanding of what just happened. Not just that's wrong, but kind of what are the causes and conditions. Then you can get closer to what happened, not just wrong right from the get-go. Yeah, that means we work on it rather than react. The third reminder is for the teacher to be gentle and calm and speak in a low voice rather than shouting. And then he says, this is something very delicate like truthfulness.

[36:14]

But here the scripture puts emphasis on having a calm, gentle attitude. when talking about someone's mistakes. So, when he says delegate, you know, to bring something up to someone, this is getting very, very close, you know, and intimate with one another. And to do it without yelling and shouting, or commanding, or yelling across the room at somebody, you know, do this, do that, or don't do this. That You know, we're such sensitive beings, and to use calm, gentle speech, affectionate, you know. I mean, don't we have a machine to not shop, not run in the central area and not shop, you know, so this, I do remember a story about Suzuki Roshi.

[37:16]

Well, I'll tell that one later. So, yeah. calm voice rather than shouting. The fourth one is that the teacher gives advice or points out the disciples' mistakes solely for the sake of helping the person. And he does not do this just to get something off your chest. So that kind of irritation, annoyance, you know, and then going right away to the person, that's not wide enough. That's just all about me and my lack of patience even, and venting and wanting to just say it. Here the teacher is very careful, noticing when the student is making some excuse for what he or she did, or when the student is not serious enough. Then the teacher should ignore the student

[38:23]

until they become more serious. If the person is, like, just brushing it off or so what, it doesn't matter so much, who cares? Suzuki Roshi said, because of the treatment services, ignore them until they become serious. How would I do that? I don't know exactly, but I can think about that. Even though we give advice only for the sake of helping the student, Still, this does not mean to always be easy with the student. Sometimes we should be very tough with the student or we can't help in the true sense. So yes, not shouting, be careful, this is intimate, use a calm voice, but that doesn't mean overlook and let each other just go ordinary way. That's not taking us out respectfully either. That's not caring for each other either.

[39:27]

And, you know, it's like this one student who finally left Green Gulch and had never gotten any feedback and said, when he finally left, didn't you think I noticed that nobody ever engaged with me about anything or nobody told me why they weren't inviting me to do more? take more responsibility or don't you think I'd notice? That was a really sad situation. So sometimes we need to be firm and clear and tough, Suzuki Roshi says, but not abusive and harsh. What is firm and clear and respectful without abuse? The last point is to point out the student's mistake with compassion, which means that the teacher is not just the teacher, but also the disciple's friend.

[40:38]

As a friend, the teacher points out some problem or gives some advice. So we're each other's spiritual friends, whether a crew had or on the crew or... senior staff were Dharma brothers and sisters, really. And so to have that feeling as out of friendship, we point out some problems. There's a problem here, friend. And I care enough about you to say it. Can you hear me? And if you can't hear me, maybe I have to raise my voice here. It's because I'm your friend and there's a problem here. So we don't skip over that. And at the same time, this can be shaky ground there if in speaking in a certain way we get activated, we get more than just there's a problem here, let's look at it.

[41:52]

Something else happens where we can act out our anger in a way that we didn't intend. This is our karmic formations. But starting out as I am your friend here, that's why I'm bringing it up. Out of compassion. And of course we get angry for all sorts of reasons. One is, what is proscribed is the anger that's really hatred, just spewing venom. And that happens, you know. Some people have more tendency towards, you know, the three poisons, greed and delusion. The animals in the middle of the wheel are a snake, a pig, and a rooster. And the snake is for hate.

[42:54]

the rooster's greed and the pegas' delusion, greed and delusion. So the snake just spews venom. They just, it's kind of the way they operate, you know, just, and that, and we all have all three, but some may tend more towards that. Others tend more towards greed or delusion, but we all have them all. So we could be angry in that way, just venomous, And seeing the world that way that is worthy of spewing them. Everything. And then there's angry at our boundaries being crossed. You know, some are getting... People have different senses of physical, personal boundaries. Different cultures have different... You probably know those. I don't know if they were, like, psychologically. experience where people from different cultures are talking and the one keeps getting closer and the other keeps backing up until you know you embrace the wall you know because in some cultures closer is what feels right and in other cultures further away feel so we have different senses of personal space but we do have boundaries and there are boundaries and not fixed and we can be angry when

[44:24]

Our personal boundaries, physical, emotional, mental, you know, like the eyes I was talking about, we can feel like our personal space is being invaded here, even though the person's across the room. But somehow every time I raise my eyes, they seem to be staring at me. They're 20 feet away, but it's like a boundary thing. So we're extremely sensitive to boundaries. No anger can come up when our boundaries are... cross and we have anger of injustice you know that is energy that can be as intense as it gets and then the plain old frustrated Greek I'm not getting what we want that's another kind of anger so you know boundary crossing can turn into venom you know or It's fluid there.

[45:26]

And when we are angry and use an abusive speech, I think it can trigger all sorts of things. And the angry being often loses our, we lose our, the Dalai Nama, we become crazy, is what the Dalai Nama says. in talking about anger, and he describes the demons of anger in Tibetan, like an agnography, you know, red face, eyes, nostrils flaring, eyes dilated, the hairs, the bodies stand up on end, you know, you can picture that as a tanka of fierce deep and protecting the Dharma, although that's not true anger, but taking that form to protect, But when it comes up in us, we kind of lose touch with reality even.

[46:29]

We can't even remember what happened. How did I say that? Did I do that? I think this comes up in people working with anal management, domestic violence, all sorts of things that people can lose their consciousness, actually. So what are the causes and conditions of that boundary violation, even using certain words or in a certain volume? What happened? And what happened with me and my friend? And what happened with harmony? So this abandoning abusive and harsh speech is, you know, the possibility of breaking or not observing the precepts that we care about so much around this particular speech habit, you know, is something to take seriously, look at seriously.

[47:54]

The last part of this. It is not easy to be a teacher or to be a student. And we cannot rely on anything, even the precepts. We have to make our utmost effort to help each other. And we do not observe our precepts just for the sake of precepts or practice rituals for the perfection of rituals. We are studying how to express our true nature And so to go one step further than precepts or ceremony or shingi or anything, it's what is our true nature? How do we truly express it? And pointing out this area of possible difficulty for us. So the opposite maybe of abusive and harsh speech is kind speech, which is one of the four methods of the bodhisattva.

[49:20]

And this is also in your handout. I think I mentioned it the other day. It would be a wonderful thing to memorize. just read a couple things from it. Kind speech means when you see such in beings, you arouse the heart of compassion and offer words of loving care. This is bodhisattva practice and karma, you know, of speech. And it's contrary to cruel or violent speech, which I think is abusive and harsh. It is, this is one of the sentences I love, it is kind speech to speak to sentient beings as you would to a baby.

[50:27]

And that doesn't mean kind of lowering the level. It means with that much loving care Kind speech is offered little by little. Kind speech expands. Kind speech is the basis for reconciling rulers and subduing enemies. Those who hear kind speech from you have a delighted expression and a joyful mind. Those who hear of your kind speech will be deeply touched.

[51:32]

They will always remember it. So, if you speak directly to someone kindly, their countenance, you know, reflects that. And they'll have a delighted expression, joyful mind. And also, When somebody else hears about it, they weren't even in the room. They weren't directly involved, but they hear of it. They will be deeply touched. They will always remember it. And I think this is when we tell teaching stories and tell them over or tell what, you know, someone told me something Blanche had said. God, you know what we tell and retell? Things we've heard that each one of us is delighted. We weren't even there. It was ten years ago. We weren't born. And we hear about it and we're deeply touched and we'll always remember it.

[52:37]

And maybe we'll tell that story. So kind speech is powerful. Subdue by enemies. Reconcile. rulers. You know, for these nine days we subduing enemies and reconciling rulers, you know, this is, there is a major kind of upheaval that's going on that we are not taking part in, you know, taking part in some way in our interconnectedness but not actively involving ourselves. But in How are we going to reconcile rulers? How are we going to subdue so-called enemies, people who are speaking in such a way that directly goes against everything we care about and stand for, you know, and that matters to us?

[53:50]

How are we gonna subdue? How are we gonna reconcile? More harsh and abuse of speech? What are the countermeasures? How are we gonna talk? What are we gonna do? Know that kind speech arises from kind heart and kind heart from the seed of compassionate heart, ponder the fact that kind speech is not just praising the merits of others, it has the power to turn the destiny of the nation. Kind speech has the power to turn the destiny of the nation. And, you know, I immediately think of Martin Luther King Gandhi Buddha you know speech that was not kind of Pollyanna-ish you know Pollyanna you know just nice that's not kind speech that turns the destiny of a nation and subdues enemies and reconciles rumor being nice rulers being nice

[55:21]

or acquiescent, or going along with, but is kind of the deepest sense from compassionate heart-mind, and that compassion is the heart of wisdom. Really turn the nations, you know, non-violent speech, and actions and truly turn the nation, turn the world, you know, thinking of Dr. Martin Luther King. So we find ourselves at a time in our lives and in the history of this world system. How are we going to meet it in a way that's true? true countermeasure to what we feel is non-beneficial, unwholesome.

[56:28]

Can we find true speech and kind speech that turns the destiny of the nation You know, when we meet section beings, can we arouse the heart of compassion? And speak from there, no matter who. Oh, boy, what a, what a, what a challenge. And he can't escape, and he can't hide from this. So we need to help one another and to find our way. Okay, I think I'll stop there.

[57:50]

Let's see where I... Are there any questions or anything anyone would like to say? Jay? I have a question about speech and upbringing you mentioned. Yes. This was really close to me for this whole year I was working and living with someone who was... My experience seemed to be disagreeing. Like, I felt like everything... Every time I'd say something different, disagree. And this went on for months. And for me, it felt like it was abusive, like I was being bullied. But then the reaction was, well, that's just the person's upbringing. That's how they are. You're too sensitive kind of thing. So it's like this clash of, I think it was just how the person was, how they're brought up, and then how I am. And it just hurt my feelings constantly. And it got to the point where it really disrupted the harmony of the group as a four-person crew. And I would have to leave and go work on myself. And the other crew members said that I was being irrational.

[58:56]

That you were being irrational. Yeah. That I was oversensitive. And by removing myself, it was affecting the family group a lot. And this person's still in my life, and I tried to bring it up to them. It didn't really change it. They tried to say I'm very sensitive. I tried to be honest. So I'm just wondering when there's that clash where... It really is just how a person is. They don't have their will, but it's really hurtful when there's a point of, you know, the person. Maybe sometimes people are a little worse, taking it personally, you know. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that phrase, this is how a person is, is fundamentally delusion, you know. I mean, we can say this is... These are my karmic formations. But is there any holding to fixed views? Like, this is how it is, like it or lump it, is the kind of thing that people say.

[60:00]

Like, well, this is how it is, which to me always means there's some holding to and not being willing to. Well, how's that for you or what's going on with you? It seems to be holding, clinging. And especially if you've been bringing it up, it looks like it's turned to as if you're too sensitive, like that's the problem. And there's a problem here together with our chemistry. And with any problem, there's contributions from both sides. No one person has the problem. when there's a problem or a conflict. It may not be straight 50-50, but everybody has a part that they're bringing to it. So that coming up against, that's just the way it is, that's just how I am.

[61:04]

When the relationship, your relationship with this person, where does that fit in? Isn't that important to look at this together? rather, what's more important, this is how it is, this is how I am, and I'm not budging, or our relationship, and looking at that together. So, I, that's one comment, anyway, I, also, this thing about you are too sensitive to hear that, People will say that you are too sensitive, you are too... What do people say? You are too sensitive as one. And I... What is that, too sensitive? I guess my feeling is we are sensitive to certain things and willing to look at that.

[62:06]

Are you willing to look at it that this has affected me really strongly? Or am I just, is there now a label? Oh, she's the one who's too sensitive. So to me, there's a lot of holding to labels and fixed views. And often that's... I don't know these people, they're probably your friends. I'm sorry if I'm kind of getting into it with them. An excuse often to just doing what I want, you know, to just... You know, just holding to what I want to do, the way I want to do it. Like it or lump it is kind of, yeah. I'm sure other people have things they want to add to this baby, but anyway, Piatta. I just think it's a statement that I can't change, but also there's something wrong with you.

[63:07]

So I think that happens constantly in the world when people try to bring up difficult things, like this person at Greenwald. Maybe there was a reason that he wasn't being or she wasn't being advanced or given more responsibility, but apparently that was not clearly stated. And as a management coach, I run into this constantly where nobody wants to say it because it will get turned, or their fear is that it will get turned in some way, or that they're stuck in this relationship. They didn't choose it. The person showed up and moved in. did whatever they did, and you learned, you know, and then at what point is something said, or who says it, or it's really, because sometimes in the workplace, the relationship isn't, I mean, I would always argue from my side that it's the most important thing, but, the relationship, yeah, but from the manager's perspective, the task is the most important thing, and that is what they're held accountable for, that's what they hear about, they're, you know,

[64:12]

So it gets very, gets into people's priorities. It's very, very complex in terms of the different kinds of relationships we find ourselves in in our lives. It varies so much. Just one thing, Jay, that I didn't speak to, which is that it began to feel, or does feel like bullying, you know, like this constant similar tone around that, not giving you a kind of space to... Anyway, I just want to express the... that I feel thinking about the situation where it's a daily thing of feeling bullied, you know, feeling and having to continue work, or living and working, I don't know, with these people, and not being seen.

[65:28]

And I think bullying is a hell realm, you know, is suffering, terrible suffering. Yeah, so I just want to say that. one thing about speech that I wanted to mention is around bullying and teasing and harsh and abusive speech that doesn't sound harsh or abusive, but is, is, and that's like teasing. And, uh, may not sound harsh, it may even be, uh, joking and stuff, but it's, it is, um, abusive and harsh, even though it's not yelling, it's not that kind of harsh. It's, uh, And there's the word prosody, you know, that's the word for tone of voice and emphasis, and how, you know, poetry, prosody, and for people with Asperger's on the spectrum, autistic spectrum, they can't hear prosody, or they can't pick out sarcasm or different, like, emphasis, like, oh, that's a cute,

[66:44]

I'll think you've got on. And they might hear that as, thank you, thank you very much. Then everybody laughs, right? So this, anyway, people with learning disabilities and things, there could be bullying and teasing and abusive speech going on. That's hard to catch, you know. I just said chat and I stress, you know. But using, you know, the power of our, what we can do with our speech in all different ways and syntax and grammar and, you know, choice, that can be hurtful. You know, it's quite... There's a lot of complexity there. Yeah.

[67:47]

Let's see. Yes? C. I just wanted to share that for me, the practice of forgiveness has been very healing. And I think in working with speech, when we acknowledge something that's out of alignment with yourself or another person, when we come back to work out of how we want to live, Practicing also with forgiveness to oneself. Any other person can be extremely helpful because it sort of lets go of its rickering, you don't know, or whatever it's there. Thank you. Thank you. There's a beautiful meditation on forgiveness that I have actually. I brought it. It's Jack Gorkfield's, you know, similar to loving kindness where, you know, you imagine people who you have hurt, and ask them for forgiveness, and those who have hurt you, and you forget them.

[68:50]

It's quite beautiful. And I think part of the guided meditation is if you are ready, that's included, because before you're ready, you're not ready to forgive. So one has to be ready. or to the degree that I am ready to forgive. So it's, you don't want to force yourself to forgive, but the power of it is. Maybe we'll do that sometime during the practice period. Got it. Thank you. Yes, Tim? In the universe of race speech, you mentioned Myriad things. Some of them have only courage and almost feel discouraged, but there's so much to be alert to. What is, uh... What is one... One thing to pay attention to?

[69:58]

Or to hold sensual? Well, what came up right away, so first off I stopped, is... includes, you know, the fierce compassion, includes the opportunity or the possibility of all kinds of speech, you know, coming and flowing from something desperately. When the speech comes from that, are those words that say the whole thing, what I've heard you say many times are the words can't ever say it all are words from this place saying it all I think it's not saying it all because we can't say it all it's saying plenty I feel the words most of the time don't say it all but there are times when they are saying it

[71:17]

And when they are saying it, the word is the thing. It's like timeless. It's like what? It's timeless. Like in certain poems or certain speakers. It's the thing. I wanted to say this before I've had this little battle with you in my mental atmosphere. About, you know, word, sound, and power. When words, a turning word, will open us to what can't be said but is realized. You're having battle to be said. I understand, like, good words, or what's the point? or there's something behind, and then there's something beneath, or to the side, but then there are those other words that just are it.

[72:25]

Yes, and each word actually is it, as each appearance is actually it, but we don't. We keep thinking it's pointing to something else. If we really understood what you just said, You mentioned the wider context where we're having upheavals. Are there any things that you can remind us of as you look at it as sources of hope? Possibly where we cannot be We feel discouraged, but we pursue despair.

[73:35]

Our topic goes about the wider... Yes, yes. Well, I think in times of despair, when we allow ourselves to completely feel what we feel with and with others, doing with others, There's also something beautiful that is born together, working with others, sharing with others, helping one another. So that I know is, it is there, will be there. And you know, people, those difficult times are, in times of despair, we sometimes stretch way further for others and for something we care about, then when things are going along, kind of jaundi jolly, you know, things going along pretty even.

[74:36]

So I don't know about hope. I don't have much stock in hope. I think it pulls us out of right now into, well, maybe Sunday or later. So right now what's going to be how each of us is engaging with one another is there's positive energy there. It's just inconceivability of guest and host. Yes. Or give or receive a gift about listener and speaker and cause the conditions that come up within a certain situation. there's beauty and sometimes we don't see beauty. So I was responding to Sam. Thank you.

[75:38]

Yeah. Yeah. You know, that inconceivability is not, it's not a negative, you know? It's like, ah, dustness or something, you know? We say thus-ness, thus-ness is like an adjective, it's how things are, which is a positive, feels positive. I think with emptiness, it's about negating, you know, this stuff is no eyes, no ears, no words, because there's no, by himself we can't, but thus-ness is talked about in Buddha-nature as kind of a positive, being conceivable. Busta says, more of a positive than just getting everything, which... Anyway, thank you, Kevin. I just want to say, as a person who grew up with a lot of harsh speech, how hard it's been to change.

[76:45]

And actually, I didn't actually really get the message until I went to Green Gulch. I think this is almost three years ago. Actually, it's probably four years ago. A group of students, we sat a one-day sitting. It was our first one-day sitting. And we went out afterward. And I had an interaction with somebody. Someone had threatened someone in our group, our green ultra group, and I kind of exploded on this person. And it sort of just like returned. And I didn't think anything of it. Like, I really didn't think anything of it. We walked back to Greenwald. I was like, yeah, that's what you do, right? And the next day, a person in the group came up to me and told me that they were really afraid of me, that they didn't want to be around me anymore. And I was crushed.

[77:46]

I just felt like a demon. I just felt like I... And so... Yeah, so years have passed, and it seems like most of it is settled, but sometimes it comes out. When that capacity emerges, just how remorseful I feel about it. Anyway, I guess this is turning into a confession. Yeah, I'm just... The feedback hurts, but it's very good. It's actually his face, kind of like you were describing, softball player you know his face is with me and he still doesn't really talk to me he's still connected and like I'm waiting for the day I think you know in a particular context where a big out person and everybody goes and nobody mentions it it's just quite a route it's just how he is so and then in a different

[78:51]

And that might still be so if you were in that context. If you should have an outburst of some sort. And then in a different context, you know. So that also attuning to where are we? Who are we talking about? And what's going on rather than our condition, you know, going to our condition of ritual. And when you set it settled, what I hear is not that it's suppressed or something, but the causes and conditions have changed enough that it doesn't arise very frequently. Is that true? Well, it's almost like, I almost feel like I've grown up again. Learned a new language. Ah, uh-huh, yeah. Please take a comfortable position.

[80:03]

So there are a couple of sayings in Spanish regarding speech. One is flies don't get into a closed mouth. How do you say it in Spanish? And the other one is... Bites mouth, the fish dies. So it looks like that. So that's it, the fish bites the hook. Yeah, yeah. It's literally the speech, but it's just talking. Yeah. It sounds like that before, you just don't speak. Just in case. You could get kind of comfortable. Is it balanced or how do you not walk there, right?

[81:06]

Well, I don't think we should hold to anything, silence or speech. However, you know, in worldly affairs, there's not much silence going on out there. For most, there's a lot of talking. So we create... spaces to have and practice and observe, silence. But if we hold to that, you know, granting and grasping, if your hand is held in any particular way, it's paralyzed, right? You can't do anything. So it's, what is, is it time to speak or to be silent? Let's just go around here, yes. be coming up as a job as we are often like putting out each other's mistakes and I guess sometimes it feels like things are a little things are said harshly or I feel like

[82:30]

or someone isn't allowed, someone's asked to not do a job because maybe they're not doing it well enough right now. And I guess I sometimes feel like I want to speak up and say that's not fair. And I guess I just wonder about when it's our response. Yeah, about speaking at the time. That practice of right speech of speaking up for some time when we see something that we feel touches the painful part in us that we imagine might also be resonating similarly from that. That's the important point, I think, that last part. If it's registering a painful point inside us and then we maybe project it like, oh, that must... feel bad for them I will speak up it's hard to know maybe it was fine maybe they appreciated that firm decision I mean I had a Dawn who I think maybe the last couple weeks they finally were Kokyo because they couldn't we did it all Japanese they couldn't get the right they couldn't and nobody could follow we used a pitch pipe we did everything and finally he launched you know as Kokyo but

[84:03]

whether that was unfair who's it unfair to is it unfair to the Sangha to you know it's yes it's a training position but let's do further training so there's a lot of but whether so to check it out you know with the person you know how was was that okay how are you feeling might be one thing rather than assuming because it resonated painfully for you or that it didn't work for them. But I think standing up for someone, I mean, this has been a problem, or I should, that's a generalization. I know a number of people who something happened in the meeting and there was total silence. Nobody said that's, this, that didn't feel right, or I feel sick to my stomach, or nobody said anything. maybe because they didn't know what to say, but it was awkward for whatever reason, but silence can't be just as damaging as harsh speech, right?

[85:15]

So we have to speak up on behalf of one another, but to also not, what's the word, kind of over... I was going to say overdo it, but that's not correct. It's, I guess it's assuming, presuming and assuming. I mean, if you don't know, you can also say, I'm feeling such and such. What about everybody else? You know, rather than that was unfair to so-and-so. You know what I mean? So I'm going to just name who I see, Nate, Julia, and Tofa, and then we're done. Okay? Nate.

[86:24]

I'm going to write by myself on the perpetrating side of being harsh or doing something that later I realized was mean or manipulative or something about alignment in some way. In the past, I think a lot of the time, especially if it was about something I felt kind of powerless about, or I felt like I was trying to shirk the responsibility of it in some way because I didn't feel strong enough to actually change or something like that, some sort of insecurity or weakness, I would apologize. And that would sort of take the place of actually changing. And so that's just sort of more manipulation.

[87:29]

That is such a subtle point to, or insights, into what can happen, yeah? And so I think I've noticed a few times where I've done that more recently. And that's got me thinking about, yeah, that balance between using words and sort of communicating with somebody or receiving feedback and saying, something and simply changing and not saying anything if I was able to sort of feel like something was off and just not apologize because I don't know, I'll be allowing some kind of behavior to continue with me. Yeah. Yeah. And simply fixing the thing I thought was off.

[88:32]

Yeah. Well. So I tried that. I tried that. And now I'm back to wondering, oh, actually, when is it actually appropriate to say something? Because otherwise that doesn't allow some sort of meaning or feeling to happen. What a beautiful little arc circle that you just did. Well, it seems like the two together, you know. So, oh, this is an action that's not wholesome or not beneficial, and I'm not going to do that anymore. And I would tell that person, you know, I see that was really very skillful. I'm sorry about that. I'm working on it. And the two together seems the best, you know. Using the sorry for an excuse to, oh, sorry about that, and just continue on doing it doesn't work, even though it's sort of, maybe the person sort of feels, well, At least they're sorry about it, but they seem to be continuing on.

[89:35]

So that doesn't work, which you had an insight about. But the two together, and sometimes maybe you don't need the sari, and other times, yeah, you need them both. But I think the changing, making the change, like this is, you know, in Tibet, and there's no word for guilt. They have a word that means I see that the action that I did was not beneficial and I won't do that again. That's the meaning of the word. And guilt is another way of spinning your wheels. It goes nowhere. It doesn't change. But it can be like an excuse for, oh, I'm taking care of it because I'm so guilty. But it's a waste of time. So I think those two things you mentioned, changing or working on changing and acknowledging it when appropriate. Thank you.

[90:35]

Julia? Yeah, just thinking about kind of speech and also speaking directly. That sometimes actually nothing gets said or seems like nothing actually gets said if you don't speak directly. So there can be this kind of talking around things that actually seems to, at least in me, my mind, creates more problems. Because what does that mean? And I think there's also the flip side of directness is that maybe it's just a little too blunt. that somebody may not be able to handle that very well. And I would say I can be pretty blunt sometimes.

[91:39]

But it also comes from the place of like, meaning what comes out of my mouth. I'm not always comfortable, but it's like, this is what I need. This is what I'm asking. This is my question. This is what I need to know. when there's a circuitous response to things, I don't know how to process any circuitous responses. And so then there's this internal conversation that would happen, right? Because nothing's actually directly been said. And maybe the circuitous response is very gentle and kind and not accusing. you know, all that other stuff, but it's also not saying anything, and sometimes I feel like that's actually also important. Yes. Well, in terms of skill, you know, to be able to say straightforwardly, unapologetically, but clearly, just like you said, this is how I say it, this is what I need, this is

[92:57]

You know, just, that's going to be so refreshing, just so refreshing without a whole bunch of energy around it. Just, um, and then there's also a place for, uh, not, well, you said sometimes you might be sometimes too blunt, but I think there's a place for blunt, frank, honest lingo, you know, language. And there's also a place for, uh, You know, like in the myth of Psyche, one of her tasks was to gather the golden fleece, and she heads out to do it. This is to be reunited with arrows, which I won't get into, but anyway. And it's noon, it's midday, and the golden rams are crashing into each other and running through the field, and she heads into this high noon situation to gather their golden fleece. You know, and the reeds growing near there speak to her, and they say, Saki, don't go in there now.

[94:06]

You're going to get smashed. Go at twilight and go around where the hedges are, where they've rubbed up against it, and gather the golden fleece from the hedges, and you'll be, you know, that's the way to accomplish your task. So there's a place for going around, the edges sometimes, if that might be more skillful. So to have the tools of both, I think, when someone speaks to you and you don't get it, they seem to be beating around the bush rather than gathering their food. That to say, I do not, I don't understand what you're trying to tell me, you know, to actually you can meet that. But there is, sometimes there's like Zen center ease, you know. My understanding is that when you da-da-da have Zen work, and it's like, could you just tell me?

[95:10]

You know, there is a tendency sometimes, I think it's maybe less people are the flat-out frank blunt, and it's refreshing. I find it very refreshing. I think I tend to it the other way, so I really do. So anyway, that's... Thank you. Tova. Okay, I'll try to be brief. Okay. After Kogan was talking about how he feels he's given a fresh start and how he's communicating. Yes. and thinking about limbic restructuring and how when we're used to grow up in a situation where we've been responded to in a certain way, so we expect that as we continue on in life.

[96:11]

And sometimes that's not very helpful. What we expect, I would say to myself, when I was growing up, if I did something wrong, I was punished. So I became very wary of doing things that might be punishment. And I think being in a community which doesn't respond that way, and I think with you, your being here, I'm not being so brief, but I remember things I learned when I was your aunt. many years ago, and the way you taught me was not through shading, blending, or punishing, but through helping me see how I could do things differently and take responsibility for my mistakes.

[97:15]

But it was a very appealing experience, and I think that what Suzuki Roshi was saying about the importance of the teacher-student relationship and speech is something that I couldn't take to heart because how we talk to one another when we're I don't want to use the word correctly I don't think it's that but when there's something we want to comment on that how we do it makes such a difference, and we can perhaps, through that, create the kind of atmosphere in which we can all change and thrive. Thank you, thank you very much. Yeah, all change and thrive. All change and thrive. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[98:36]

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