This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. My Chico asked me if I had come up with anything to say tonight, and I said to her that it feels sort of like I'm about to weave something, a blanket, let's say, or a rug, and that I have all these threads and colors of threads, and I could just lay them out in front of you and say, okay, does it look like a blanket? But I'll try to do a little more of the weaving. than just, my goodness, there's some interesting people here tonight.

[01:04]

I've been gone for a few days, and I'm surprised. Okay, welcome to many of you. So to set the scene, I've just been up in San Francisco for a couple of days, and when I go there, I usually meet with people who I've been practicing with for 30 and 40 years. And there's a certain kind of feeling to that, not just one feeling, but this time, especially coming back, there was a feeling. And then I got to Tassajara, and I realized, oh, there was this same feeling, and I realized there's a kind of poignancy or something that is partly the end of the summer. and coming to the end of something, and although I don't think that my relationship with those people in the city is coming to the end, there's a sense of the length of it and the difference in it, and especially knowing people so intimately and therefore having

[02:23]

habitual responses, like disagreeing. Some people just like disagreeing with, almost no matter what they say. And yet loving them, but still disagreeing with them. Or others, if I disagree with them, it's really hard for me. I expect to agree with these people. And if they have a different experience than I do, it's hard to stay. really open and kind of centered in what my feeling, not to not be affected by them, but not to be affected by them so much that I lose track of what I think about something. So, you know, poignancy of this long trip we've been on together, but also these little catches in it. And the same thing here at Tassajara of... You know, sometimes in practice there's a surprising liberation that comes suddenly where there's something that we feel like we're stuck in, some problem, some situation, some state of mind, and we go along that way for a while, and then sometimes it's just like gone.

[03:44]

And sometimes we do that with ourself, but often here at... in this narrow valley, maybe, and often maybe in our lives. We do that with somebody else. We feel that stuckness with somebody, and it feels like this is not okay, this doesn't work, this is a very uncomfortable situation. And sometimes, and I've seen it many, many times here at Tassajara, something happens. Sometimes communication happens. Sometimes, who knows, you know? something happens and it's like it's gone. You can see where it was, how it was there and how you felt the way you did about this person, but then it's just not the same anymore. Sometimes I call that Tassajara magic, but sometimes, like now, there are places where Tassajara magic hasn't worked yet, where there still are

[04:49]

ways that or situations or people who are feeling that disagreement, that difficulty. So I came back to Tassajara tonight knowing that I had to lecture, that I got to lecture, that I get to share my thoughts with you. And I opened Moon and a Dew Drop, as I often do. This note fell out, which it often does. This is a note that was given to me years ago by my dear friend, who hopefully won't mind if I tell you her name, Tia Strozer. Tia and I have been friends of this complicated variety for a long time, and especially back when we were here at Tassajara, there are ways that we just drove each other nuts, I think. I've talked about this before.

[05:52]

I think it's partly because we're so alike, but, you know, how sometimes if you're a lot like a person, you want to differentiate. And, you know, silly things would happen, like we would sometimes drive to the city for meetings. And, you know, I love to sing in the car along to music or something. I love to do that. But when Tia did it, I didn't like it. It's like she was too exuberant or something. She offended my reserve. So I would pout, essentially. That was what was happening. I'd get cold and distant and very embarrassing. Anyway, so one time, I don't remember which, we were having some kind of difficulty. And either during the difficulty or after the difficulty, she gave me this poem, which is from a Zen master she wrote down at the bottom named Genro. I don't know who that is, but here's the poem.

[06:53]

True friendship is beyond intimacy and alienation. Between meeting and not meeting, no difference. On the fully blossomed plum tree, South Branch owns the whole spring. North Branch owns the whole spring. I actually kind of like to switch a word in the first line and say it's the same thing, but true intimacy is beyond friendship and alienation. True intimacy is beyond friendship and alienation. Between meeting and not meeting, no difference. On the fully blossomed plum tree, South Branch owns the whole spring. North Branch owns the whole spring. I think this is really advanced practice. You know, we're between meeting and not meeting, no difference. That's not how we usually feel about our relationships, you know. Meeting or not meeting, one or the other, is definitely our preference usually.

[08:00]

There's some people we'd rather not meet, there are other people we really do want to meet. So... I'll come back to this in a minute. This is a quote from Dogen. It's from Only a Buddha and a Buddha, which is one of Dogen's. This is probably my favorite, what are they called, of his, Dogen's. Anyway, this one is surprising in many ways. It's right at the beginning of only a Buddha and a Buddha, and I've edited it a little bit. Buddha Dharma cannot be known by a person. Because it is realized by Buddhas only, it is said, only a Buddha and a Buddha can thoroughly master it.

[09:03]

That's a quote from the Lotus Sutra, and there it says, only a Buddha and a Buddha can thoroughly master the true suchness of all things. Only a Buddha and a Buddha can thoroughly master it. When you realize Buddha Dharma, you do not think, this is realization, just as I expected. Even if you do think that, realization invariably differs from your expectation. Realization is not like your conception of it. Although realization is not like any of the thoughts preceding it, this is not because such thoughts were bad and could not be realization. Past thoughts in themselves were already realization, but since you were seeking elsewhere, you thought that these thoughts cannot be realization. Still, realization does not depend on thoughts, but is helped only by the power of the manifestation of reality itself.

[10:08]

It is like not wishing for more color or brightness when viewing flowers or the moon. So, when you realize Buddha Dharma, you should not think, this is realization just as I expected. Because even if you do think that, actually realization is always different than our expectation. And one reason that it's different than our expectation is it can only be, as it says in the first paragraph, because it can't be realized by a person, by themselves. It has to be realized by a Buddha. And really, Buddhas only come with other Buddhas. Buddhas don't come... just by themselves. Buddhas actually are people who see that there are other Buddhas around them, that they're surrounded by Buddhas.

[11:12]

That's what a Buddha is. So somebody who sees that they're surrounded by Buddhas, then when they look at a situation and realize what the situation is going on, it's partly because they see there's more than their own perception of it happening there. There's more than their own experience of it happening. That the other's experience is also valid. The other's experience is also part of that situation. Realization does not depend on thoughts. It's helped by the power of the manifestation of reality itself. So the manifestation of reality itself includes... more than just our own experience of it. This may be a surprise to us at certain times. I mean, it makes sense that reality is more than just our experience of it, that there are other beings that are also having an experience, but that's not how it feels when we're in the middle of it.

[12:17]

We think, the way I am experiencing this is the truth. But Dogen is saying, even if that's what you think, when you finally see this reality when you finally have the experience the power of the manifestation of reality itself experience the manifestation of reality itself then we will be free then we will see how this situation is free it's like not wishing for more color or brightness when viewing flowers or the moon it's that simple It often doesn't seem that simple when we are in the middle of a difficult situation. Since Tia seems to be on my mind tonight, although I'm not sure it started with Tia, this thought, this memory, in my mind, but years ago when Tia was the director in the building and I was something

[13:28]

in the Page Street building in San Francisco, the Zen Center there. I think I was the president. Some of you have heard this story before. But there was a young man, practitioner, who was going through a really hard time, and he was working in the kitchen. And he seemed to... Tia and I were both sort of his practice leader, friend. And he seemed to be... burning his bridges. He seemed to be really kind of making things difficult for himself in every situation, really pushing it. And he was working in the kitchen, and the Tenzo fired him. And she told Tia, who was the director, and Tia came to me what to do. And because, you know, at Zensyn, we can't really fire people. I mean, it's not exactly like we hired them, so we can't really fire them. You know, we do once in a while ask somebody to leave, but it's a long process.

[14:33]

It's not just like you're out of here, you know. It doesn't usually happen that way. It's happened something like that once in a while, but not very often. So she came and asked me, and we were thinking about this and wondering what to do because, you know, we knew he was difficult and having some difficulties, but still, you know, it's always a two-sided thing. Yeah. So Katigiri Roshi was the abbot at Zen Center right then, and he happened to be in the city center. So we thought, wonderful, this is a great opportunity to go talk to Katigiri Roshi about something. It was always a wonderful experience. So we went and asked if we could talk to him, and we told him the story of what had happened. And we said, you know, what should we do? And he said, you have to try to understand them. And we said, yes, but what should we do? We have this situation. What should we do with it?

[15:34]

Should we tell her she has to take him back? Should we tell him he has to leave? We don't have another job for him. He said, you have to try to understand them. So I think this is very much the same attitude. It's every person being is expressing part of the truth. And they may be expressing it in a somewhat crazy way from your point of view. Nonetheless, we have to try to understand them. And we have to start with ourself. We have to try to understand ourself. We have to be open to the truth that's being expressed here. And there are several things that can make that difficult. It can be difficult because it's too intense, because the truth that is being expressed here in response to what's out there or in response to what's here or in response to some mixture of it is too intense, and we don't know how to stay with it.

[16:45]

It really feels like... It shouldn't be happening. Or we, without even thinking about how it feels, we just go down our habitual path to get away from it. Not have this experience. Close down or shout or run away. Whatever we do to get away from the intensity of our experience. Another reason that it can be hard to stay with and, you know, even express in one way or another, either verbally or just by being with it, this part of the truth is sometimes it can be its diffuseness or its complexity or we could call it its confusion. Sometimes we call it it's like I don't know what I think about that or if there's a decision to be made and Other people have strong feelings about it. Some of us, you know, are like, oh, I don't know.

[17:48]

What do I think about that? It's not available to me. Partly because we aren't willing to just be with the complexity of what we're feeling that maybe doesn't come down to a simple yes or no. It maybe comes down to I don't know. Or to, well, you know, 60% of this and 40% of this. Whatever it is, this teaching is encouraging us to try to be open to, stay with, embody, manifest this portion of reality in order to be part of the full manifestation of reality. And to view those who... are involved in this manifestation of reality with us as also manifesting reality which does not always look simple does not always look like oh yeah good we're all on the same team let's go that's a nice pleasant experience and it's not always what's happening and it's sort of like what this poem is saying true intimacy is beyond friendship and alienation

[19:11]

true intimacy. Sometimes when I think about true intimacy, I think about Tassajara in the old days. Is this okay to divert with this story? You know, in the old bathhouse, it was on the shady side of the creek, for one thing. So in the winter, it was much colder over there than it is now on the sunny side of the creek. And also, we didn't This is like those stories where the snow was this high and we had to walk miles to get to the Zendo. It was like that. It really was like that. The Zendo didn't have heat. The dining room only had a very smoky wood stove and kerosene lamps. And we had 35 minutes for bath time, all of us. because we didn't have any bath exercise time. Work ended at 5, and the dental started at 5.35, so you could have maybe 40 minutes. But basically, 40, 50 people, 55 people would head to the bathhouse at the same time, and they'd pretty much divide into two groups, men and women, somewhat equal, go to opposite sides of the bathhouse.

[20:31]

In the old bathhouse, there were no warm showers, There was one cold shower. I think the men's side was the same as the women's side. There was one cold shower, which I never went anywhere near. It was cold in the winter. The plunge, you were just ready to be in the plunge by 5 o'clock in the afternoon on a winter day. But, of course, you had to wash off first. So there were two of those sunken tubs, like we have one on each side now. There were two on each side. And on the women's side... I don't know what happened on the men's side, but it was probably the same because there wasn't a whole lot of time. On the women's side, we'd just fill up the tubs, both the tubs, and then three people would get in the tub, soap up, rinse off, get out. One would get out, another one would get in. There'd be people waiting there to get in the tub, soap up, rinse off, get into the plunge. That's true intimacy.

[21:32]

And it's beyond. Friendship and alienation. It's very important. Then you could go to the plunge, where there was more true intimacy, but in a little bigger space. Between meeting and not meeting, no difference. On the fully blossomed plum tree, south branch owns the whole spring, north branch owns the whole spring. So, you know, on this... This fully blossomed plum tree, which is realization. It's one way of seeing the world. It's one way of seeing our life. We are living on a fully blossomed plum tree. That's where we live. And each branch actually has the whole spring. North branch has the whole spring. South branch has the whole spring. My branch has the whole spring.

[22:36]

Your branch has the whole spring. Whether we agree or disagree, it's because the spring isn't really in our idea about what's going on. No, it's in what's really going on. It's in the tree, the fully blossoming plum tree. It's in this manifestation of reality that we're part of that's bigger than whatever our idea of it is. It's bigger than our idea of what would be good or bad. It's big enough to include what the thoughts, which we might be calling bad because we haven't seen them this completely yet. It's big enough to include the thoughts that we might be calling good, which are not necessarily either one, good or bad, but they are part of this fully blossoming world. It doesn't mean, I think, that there is no wholesome or unwholesome, or certainly that there is no pain or pleasure or even harm.

[23:48]

It is possible for us to intend harm and to do harm, but still, in the context of this fully blossoming plum tree, Harm is not necessarily what we intend. Or if we intend harm, that isn't exactly what happens. Something happens. Our intention goes out there and it has an impact. It's not like it doesn't mean anything, but it's not... We're not in charge of the world, actually. We're... We're adding, we're contributing ourself to it. And we aren't making up our contribution. We're embodying our contribution. So can we, is it possible for us to view the world that way? And when we don't, when we're living our life and we notice that

[24:56]

I do not think I'm surrounded by Buddhas here. I think I'm surrounded by people who are really confused and have the wrong idea and are doing painful things, and I wish they'd stop. When we notice that, which might not be at the first second that we have that thought, it might be after a while when we notice, oh, this is a painful thought, and then sometimes we think, there's something I could do about that then I would suggest trying to come back to oh is my experience of reality as it's happening now is it am I fully open to it you know can I be open to this branch of the plum tree because that's our gate I believe this that's our gate to being able to be open to what's going on with those other people if I can be there for my experience of it I can actually stay here for my experience of what is it like to live with these people including what's it like to live with this person and that's one way of describing I think what Zazen is about like how to

[26:26]

have the, not how to exactly, but it helps create the stability where we can be there for what gets manifested here, what gets manifested in this branch of the plum tree, how it responds to the wind. And that somehow this sitting down and sitting still helps us be there and be open for the full, the full manifestation of reality at this moment. So I want to see what time it is. Yes, do you have any questions or comments I want to bring up? Anybody? Yes.

[27:29]

Yes. Yeah. Well, I think there are times when and for a couple of different reasons why we might say I need some space from this situation. You know, one of them would be that I really I don't feel like I can be in this in a way that's beneficial. You know, like it is too much for what's coming up for me is too much. And we might we might see that or we might just say, like, you're too much for me. I think what that really means, and you can check this out for yourself, is the way I'm responding to this is too much for me. You know, I mean, in a dangerous situation, that might be another one where, okay, I'm not ready to die yet. I'm going to leave this situation. And that's legitimate. Another reason why we might say, know, to draw some boundaries, you know, to say, this is my boundary.

[28:53]

Even if we feel like we can handle it, like I can be there and I can be stable with this and respond, if we tried that and we found that the response, where the response goes, which might feel like it's mainly coming from one or the other person, but is still in some way or another being made by both people, doesn't feel like it's a useful response. And, you know, really we only have our own sense of that. And sometimes it seems important enough to say, you know, this is a boundary. I can't be around you right now. Did you want to say anything more? No?

[29:54]

Thanks. Yes? I was trying to remember that tonight, and actually I don't remember what happened. I don't remember what happened. I remember what Kategori Roshi said. I know that eventually he actually did burn his bridges and ended up out on the street. And he may have been that... you know, that he said, I don't want to go back right then, I don't remember. But eventually, and actually there were numerous late-night telephone calls and meetings and whatnot, and suicide thoughts and threats and things, and eventually he pulled himself out of it, and he is right now, I think, doing very well somewhere in Georgia. That's good that there's a happy ending to that story. It's not always the case, but yeah. Thanks for tying that in together.

[30:54]

Anything else? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. You know, if we can, I think this poem is really good. You know, between meeting and not meeting, in a way, there isn't any difference. You know, it's just, can I be open to... So if someone says... no, I can't stand to be around you, that's hard for us, right? Usually we don't. We would like everyone to love us.

[31:56]

We would like to be an encouragement and a joy to everyone. So if someone says no, we take that very personally. It's very hard to remember that it's mainly their experience that they're responding to, and it's not quite accurate. Just say, this is just them. There is some information there for us, which we may or may not be able to interpret. But it is, I think, very useful to, if we can, to try to be open to what that information might be without deciding that that means I'm a bad person. but this poem about meeting and not between meeting and not meeting is no difference. Really, we continue to have our experience. This is where our main world is.

[33:00]

In some ways, it's very accurate to say I am the center of the universe. Each one of us is really the center of the universe, and this is where I experience the universe from. And if I experience... a joyful feeling. Of course, we prefer that, but rarely is life totally joyful. There's some pain in life, and in fact, to be able to fully settle with and be open to that pain is sometimes joyful in a strange kind of way. So it takes letting go of a lot of ideas to really be open to that experience. The idea that, no, I didn't, I'm a good person. I mean well to you. I'm just trying to help in some way.

[34:01]

To really just let it be that for now, I'm playing some other role in your life. Does that make sense? Yeah. Anything else? I think I'll close by reading this poem one more time. True intimacy is beyond friendship and alienation. Between meeting and not meeting, no difference. On the fully blossomed plum tree, South Branch owns the whole spring, North Branch owns the whole spring. Thank you. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[35:10]

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