This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening, everyone. I had mentioned at work meeting that we might go a little bit longer, but we won't go a little bit longer. We're going to end at 8.30. our regular work day time. What I wanted to do tonight was talk with you and have you think about and talk about the fourth of the parts of bright speech. So there's abandoning false speech, divisive speech, abusive and harsh speech, and the fourth is... frivolous talk and idle chatter. And so I wanted to talk about that.

[01:03]

And also the last part of our evening, I wanted us to do some listening exercises, listening and speaking with one another, the way we did it in an earlier class. When we talked, we each told a story about, I think we were talking about false speech and lying. So this time, if you could think now or even jot down some possible things that you might talk about that have to do with, actually it could be divisive speech and abusive or harsh speech, or in particular idle chatter, frivolous talk and idle chatter, a time when you were spoken to in that way or talked about in that way, gossiped about, or when you talked idly frivolously and, you know, how that felt or what you remember about that, what the consequences were, what the object, what was the purpose kind of behind how you were talking in that way.

[02:11]

So either that, imagine telling somebody about some instance or the other speech things that we've talked about. Okay, so just at the beginning, just to be thinking about that a little bit. And I'll talk more about the listening exercise. So, abandoning frivolous talk and idle chatter, I wanted to pass this around and show this to you, which is a sculpture, a wooden sculpture of a monk whose name was Kuya, and he practiced... chanting Amida Buddha's name. And this sculpture was done by, the sculptor was Kosho, who lived in the 11th century, no, 1185 to 1333 is the Kamakura period, and he was a sculptor during this time.

[03:13]

So this was a famous 10th century monk. And if you can see, coming from his mouth are these six teeny little Buddhas that are flowing from his mouth. So I'll pass this around. His practice was chanting the Nembutsu, which is Namu Amida Butsu, that gets slurred almost or made into one word like Nembutsu. Namu Amida Butsu, Namu Amida Butsu, which was praying. He was like praying and walking around sending out this homage to Amina Buddha for the sake of the people. in the villages, praying for their salvation, you could say, or their, to be liberated. It was very famous. And this sculpture, it's a full-size, or maybe even bigger than full-size standing sculpture, and there's something about these Buddhists coming out of the mouth, which, whether we're chanting Amita Buddha's name, or whether the words that come out of our mouth,

[04:23]

are for the sake of the many, for the well-being of all, for our own and others' well-being and enlightenment and liberation. So it was said that, this always feels like it's going to fall, that Shariputra, you know, who is one of the Buddha's disciples, Shravaka Hurt, was alive and heard the Buddha. It's in the Heart Sutra, right? Oh, Shariputra. One of what they said about Shariputra is he is the Blessed One's son, his offspring, born of his mouth, born of the Dharma, created by the Dharma, an heir of the Dharma. So this Shariputra was born of the Buddha's mouth. The words of the Buddha as Dharma. gave birth to Shariputra as a practitioner and teacher and monk.

[05:26]

So being born of the Buddha's mouth, and then this particular sculpture really, really struck me. It's in a temple somewhere in Japan, which I'll love to see someday. So frivolous talk and idle chatter may seem to us as being lesser, or what's the big deal? So you chat a little bit. But the Buddha also mentioned the same thing on his deathbed, actually, and also Dogen did. In Dogen's fascicle, it's the last... 84th in the particular collection of dated ones, dated fascicles, the eight awakenings of great beings. Some of you may know that fascicle. And the last of the eight awakenings is not to be engaged in hollow discussions.

[06:30]

So this was Shakyamuni Buddha on his deathbed. mentions various things, not seeking things, being content, and not being involved in hollow discussions. And Dogen also, this fascicle was written in 1253, which is when he died that year. He brought up the Eighth Grade Awakenings, just like the Buddha did on his deathbed, and included, which includes this no hollow speech. And what Dogen says is... The Eighth Awakening is not to be engaged in hollow discussions. It is to experience realization and be free from discriminatory thinking with a thorough understanding of the reality of all things. It is called not to be engaged in hollow discussions. And then he quotes the Buddha, which is in the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. The Buddha said, If you get into hollow discussions, your mind will be scattered.

[07:33]

I think this is the basic thrust of this, is what happens to our minds when we're involved in frivolous talk and idle discussions, hollow discussions. Your mind will be scattered. Then you will be unable to realize liberation, even if you have left the household life. So you should immediately leave behind a scattered mind and hollow discussions. If you wish to attain the joy of serenity, you need to cure the sickness of hollow discussions. This is called not to be engaged in hollow discussions. So this is Buddha's last words and Dogen's last words to us. So I take it seriously, and at the same time, I don't want to go too far. too rigid and not be able to speak in an informal way or casually or make small talk.

[08:35]

And there's a purpose for small talk as well. So when is the purpose of small talk, not hollow discussions, but dharmic discussions, taking the form of small talk, not big talk? So... I think in your packet, and we've been going over what Chunda, the silversmith, kept, you know, was asking the Buddha about verbal purification. And under, you know, the Buddha said, we purify ourselves with verbal, skillful verbal actions, skillful bodily action, skillful action of the mind. So for starting with unskillful verbal action around idle chatter, The Buddha says to Chunda the silversmith, a person who engages in this, speaks out of season, speaks what isn't factual, what isn't accord with the goal, the dharma and the vinya, words that are not worth treasuring.

[09:46]

That is how one is made impure in four ways by verbal action. So this unskillful action says, of idle chatter is your words are not treasured. They're not of benefit. They may also be, you know, false. They're not in season. They're not in accord with conditions. It's just words coming out and not in accordance with Dharma or precepts or... So then under verbal action, that's skillful. I've been reading these all along to you in the different, you know, abandoning these different things. So skillful action, abandoning idle chatter. They abstain from idle chatter. They speak in season, speak what is factual. What is in accordance with the goal, the dharma, and the vinya?

[10:49]

They speak words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal. That is how one is made pure, in four ways, by verbal action. I think this particular Chunda the Silversmith, this sutta, Anguttara Nikaya sutta, is very core, you know, about... skillful and unskillful, and purifying through verbal action. I feel like I'm talking really fast, because I want to have our full listening exercise, and so I'll just keep going here. So what are the effects of idle chatter? One might think, well, it's not such a big deal. So the object of idle chatter is anything that's kind of meaningless.

[11:52]

And it's often influenced by delusion, by being in a kind of deluded state of mind. This is Kel Tsang. The Tibetan teacher who I know from his commentary on Bodhi on Shantideva's Bodhisattva Charyavatara, the guide to a Bodhisattva's way of life that he commented on line by line. So here's his comments on idle chatter. For example, we can just utter everything that comes into our head. We can talk without purpose or without any sense of responsibility. Any talking that is mindless or of no real benefit is idle chatter. It can also be nonverbal. And he mentions spending a lot of time reading frivolous books, or I think also frittering away our noontime, suppertime, chore time, too, on the Internet, you know, just idly, meaninglessly, just... And then the action in and of itself is not severely causing harm, you know, in terms of karma.

[13:09]

But if we indulge in it frequently, what happens is our whole life begins is really filled with trivialities, distractibilities, and just, it's like, it just goes through like a flower in a sieve. Where did that day go? Gee. So this is the, it's not in and of itself that it's so big consequences, but the effect on us over time, and if we get in the habit, really, or indulge in it, and it fills our life. And the completion of the action is when other people, in terms of verbal, have heard our chatter, all those discussions. So in terms of karma, it depends on our state of mind, the degree of harm or negativity. So if we chatter meaninglessly in order to, for example, stop somebody from doing something that's wholesome, to distract them or stop them from doing something that may be beneficial, that has more karmic weight than if we're just casually at the coffee tea area and chatting weight.

[14:32]

That has less weight karmically. So what is the purpose of it? If the purpose is to prevent something beneficial from happening, that has more karmic fruit consequences. And the effects of idle chatter, this is often the case where the effect is similar to the cause. So the effect of idle chatter is that people will not... take you very seriously or they end up not listening or taking with a lot of weight what you have to say. They think of us as foolish or maybe not worthy of spending time with or paying attention to our comments and what we have to say. because so much of it is idle chatter. So even when we're kind of like crying wolf, that story, you cry wolf too many times and people don't believe you when the real wolf comes, similar with idle chatter karmically.

[15:40]

So that's Kelt Sam Gyatso. So the Buddha, there's a number of places in the Pali... Sutras where the Buddha comes upon a group of monks, in this case it's mostly monks, but it could be monks or nuns, who have gathered after their alms round, they've gathered in a meeting hall, and they're talking, and then the Buddha, after waking up, after his alms round and resting, he comes upon them and says, good monks, you know, what have you gathered here to talk about? I'll tell you what happens in this one. There's a couple of these that I find them interesting and so the Buddha the Blessed One was staying at

[16:52]

in the Jedha Grove. And he, after his meal, a large number of monks after the meal returned from their alms around us and gathered. And then they began many kinds of, and it's translated as bestial topics of conversation. So I don't know exactly what the word is. This is Thani Saurabiku who did so much of the Pali canon or maybe all of it. He says, he translates some word. in Polly into bestial conversations, topics. And the topics were conversations about kings, robbers, and ministers of state, armies, alarms, and battles, food and drink, clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents, you know, like perfumes, relatives, vehicles, villages, towns, cities, the countryside, heroes, men and women, the gossip of the street and the well, tales of the dead, tales of diversity, the creation of the world and of the sea.

[18:00]

Talk of whether things exist or not. So they were very busy talking about vehicles. I don't know what kind of vehicles. Oh, did you see that cart that went by? Oh, it's really a neat one. Oh, I like those wheels. Very busy talking this way. So then the blessed one, emerging from his seclusion in the late afternoon, went to the meeting hall and on arrival, sat down on a seat made ready. I think this is so interesting because he says, excuse me for interrupting you, monks, you know, for what topic of conversation are you gathered together here? In the midst of what topic of conversation have you been interrupted? You know, he's very respectful. I have interrupted your Dharma discussion maybe. And one of the monks says, just now, Lord, after the meal. This is all repetition, so you can memorize it. From our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation about kings, robbers, ministers of state, battles, food and drink, etc.

[19:06]

And we could say, you know, movies and elections. And these aren't bestial topics exactly, but in this context, and that's what I think is important. What the Buddha says to them is, it isn't right, monks, that sons, these are the monks, but I would say monks and nuns, sons and daughters of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life should get engaged in such topics of conversation. That is, conversations about... kings, robbers, et cetera, et cetera. It goes over it again, so you really get it. And then the Buddha says there are ten topics of proper conversations for monks and nuns, people who have left the home life. And then he names them. And the ten topics are modesty, contentment, seclusion.

[20:11]

non-entanglement, arousing persistence, virtue, concentration, discernment, release, and the knowledge and vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage, now this is interesting from the Buddha, if you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun and moon so mighty, so powerful. to say nothing of the wonders of other sects. I mean, you would shine like the sun and moon with power if you were to just engage only in these ten conversations, these ten topics. Modesty. I don't even know how you would talk about modesty. Contentment. Seclusion. It was really nice to be secluded. Anyway, I don't want to make a joke about this because this is... Not only in this sutta, but in the other sutta, the Buddha brings it up again.

[21:15]

And in this, the ten, modesty, contentment, seclusion, non-entanglement, arousing persistence, virtue, concentration, discernment, release, and the knowledge and vision of release. I think release might be nirvana, but release. So in another sutta, he says, this is the S.N. is Samuta Nikaya Sutta, whereas some Brahmins and contemplatives living off food given in faith are addicted, to talking about this as lowly topics, such as, and then they name them again, this is a whole other sutta, kings, robbers, ministers, state, armies, did I say all these?

[22:22]

Philosophical discussions, the creation of the world and the sea, yeah. And here's some other things that they do, that they're addicted to, and this is also frivolous talk and idle chatter, contemplative say things like you understand the doctrine and discipline I'm the one who understands the doctrine and discipline how could you understand the doctrine and discipline you're practicing wrongly I'm practicing rightly I'm being consistent you're not etc. where you kind of call out that a person is not understanding of Dharma correctly and did it wrong did I lose it? whoa I wonder if it, does it squeeze? Squeeze it. Okay. And then the Buddha says, monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying you don't understand, I understand the Dharma.

[23:32]

How could you understand, et cetera? This is, or you fall into a wrong practice. I'm the right practice. So this is wordy warfare. Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal. It is not fundamental to the holy life. It does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquility, higher knowledge, enlightenment, or nirvana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss And then he says the Four Noble Truths. Why? Because such talk is related to the goal. It's related to the task you must accomplish. So I think this is really reminding us of what is worthy of bringing up and what scatters the mind and does not serve us, serve our practice, serve our what's the most important thing, what's our central thing that we care about the most.

[24:37]

and our idle chatter, and we'll dissipate that, we'll diffuse it, we'll... So these are for contemplatives, you know, these particular... This is not for our, you know, these ten things I mentioned. I am not recommending that we try to keep to those ten things. This is... You know, not for our ordinary conversation. However, I think we can still notice if we're just meaninglessly talking away, bringing things up, and falling into gossip, really, which I brought this, which I'll leave here for you to read. This is a short essay by Darlene Cohn on gossip. No Harm in a Little Gossip, right? It's the title of it.

[25:38]

Is this in your packets? Did I put it in your packets? I guess I didn't. Anyway, Darlene, in her inimical fashion, talks about herself and being, since she was 12 years old, since she was, she has died in January 2012. She said she was an avid gossiper since the age of 12. and she thought it was innocuous and kind of fun and showed her wit, talking about another person who wasn't there, about who they were, and her way of capturing, just getting, just nailing them, you know. And then something happens with a good friend. I don't know, have you read this, Fiatra? Yeah, yeah. But she also, Darlene says things like, I love reality shows. There are many on the subjects of sex and power, which are my favorites and your favorites.

[26:42]

Just call me a student of human suffering. Anyway, I think you'll enjoy this, how she understood the harm done in talking about someone and exercising one's wit for that purpose, really, not for their benefit or to help them or... to further her practice. So I'll leave this here for you, maybe. I'll give this to you, Goyo, if you're here. Just leave it for people. So idle chatter and frivolous talk and hollow discussion means the words are not treasured. They may not be trustworthy. They may not be seen as gifts. And as we know, our words can be healing, can meet someone's pain and suffering, can bring joy.

[27:51]

This isn't just, can bring lighthearted encouragement, all sorts of things. They're like gifts, and this thing of, are they worthy of taking to heart and treasuring? I think in the Chunda the Silversmith, the unskillful words are not worth treasuring, unskillful words, and wanting our words to be like these Buddhists that come out of the mouth of that figure. What might we notice about the way that we use our speech? And the place of small talk as a Dharma event is making someone feel comfortable, calming someone down perhaps, welcoming someone, friendliness, basic friendliness, speaking first, bodhisattva practice of friendliness.

[28:53]

And that can be done in talking about the weather, talking about current events, talking about a wonderful book you read. That's all, to me, under the umbrella, really, of our Dharma activity. That's not to be somehow cut out of our speech. But that means there's some intention there. So I'm looking at the clock, and it's almost 8 o'clock. Yes, yes, please do. I don't mean to. There's more material. Yeah. What do you think is the basis or the cause that words, why less or otherwise, can have such alarming effect on our emotions?

[29:55]

The basis for that? Yeah, I mean, where is it found? Is it what they call intelligence? What is it that makes world so hurt or encourage? Yeah. However you want to put it. Yeah. Why shouldn't we just ignore it? Yeah. I think we are made for speech, you know, human beings. language. And we, from the moment of conception, we can hear the outside world, we can hear our parents speaking. So words and speech are some of, is like deep, deep, deep, hardwired, maybe you could say, to matter, to matter and have meaning of love and, you know, so I think When you say unconscious, I think it's we're built to respond to language in the deepest of ways.

[31:05]

Both loving language and hurtful language, we respond. So what is, you might say, in our genetic makeup? In our genetic makeup? Yeah, I'm saying that. You know, I can't... scientifically sort of say that, but that's kind of my understanding. And as humans, our speech, I mean, I think other animals have other kinds of speech, you know, other kinds of communication maybe, but speech is so uniquely human. Any other thoughts about frivolous talk and idle chatter? Hollow discussions. I really don't want this to sound like a criticism of any of us because I think we all... I mean, I was just talking at lunch today about reading Anna Karenina and Tolstoy.

[32:18]

Is that frivolous talk and idle chatter? Does it support our... Life together, is it encouraging? Yes. My formal life, I was an art critic. And I was trained for a kind of discernment that would decide whether something was hollow or something was... referring to sort of responding to the political context in an overmuch way or was merely quoting. And in doing those things, was participating in a kind of idle chatter. But there was also this, I guess I, what is it to be the one who's always saying something that counts is also fraught.

[33:28]

And I think that idle chatter is a comfortable way to invite people to the table so that people can have something to say. So there's if someone's in campaign, for example, idle chatter can be helpful. But there's something about idle chatter where you're going to have someone to have something to say too, you know? And so people are talking and you've got your own sort of office ready to go. So I'd like to make the distinction between idle chatter as meaningless and scatters the mind and what I'm calling small talk, which is can welcome, be friendly, is a way to make people feel warmth and included and that they're wanted there at the table, you know.

[34:29]

And that has, that's a different quality and it includes our practice life, you know. So, but the subject matter may be, you know, a number of things. It doesn't have to be, you know, contentment and modesty, and, you know, it can be Anna Karenina, you know, but it's in the service of building community, building Sangha, warmth and inclusivity. So I think that's the distinction, I think, between why one would, why the Buddha on his deathbed in Dogen and also in Samyak Vak would say abandon idol chatter. So, but it doesn't say abandon you know, conversation, you know, real conversation, converse. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So much of what you're talking about comes up alarming for me, you know, like guilt, guilt, feel guilty. And I'm sitting here thinking like, how could I be, how could I be the same person who really doesn't want anyone to believe some story about who I am

[35:41]

You know, but at the same time, I'm hungry for stories about other people. You know, like, if you're like, oh, the hubs on the lumber truck were locked in two-wheel drive, then you're like, who did it? Who did it? I want to know the story of who's the hub, you know, just messing up the truck. Might be me. But anyway, it's like simultaneous. Like, I feel the pain of, like, you know, if someone believes a story about me, it's how I am. But at the same time, like, you know, hungry for these other stories, you know, like you want. And it's sort of like protective is sort of like you want to know who you can trust or who you can't trust or, you know. What can you say about that? And it just seems like the work is is more than just keeping my mouth shut. Yeah. And how do I get to the basis of that? Yeah. Well, I think that hunger, you know, that. there's an energy rise sometimes when we're talking about somebody else and what they did or didn't do.

[36:49]

And it's very infectious, contagious, maybe. And when Darlene says, I was addicted since I was 12 to gossip, it's like, it's fun. We have fun. The energy is, you know, it's really... we associate it with fun, I think, in some way, this kind of energy. And it piques our interest and we go for it. So, you know, how do we recognize that quality of wanting to get involved in that way as, see it as, be careful here, red flag-ish, you know, or is it our unwholesome states of mind arising also, you know, along with that interest and energy, can we catch that and then let it go? When you said you're feeling, did you say guilty?

[37:51]

Well, yeah, it's a little bit of guilt and a little bit of like, I've got a lot of work to do. Yeah, I think I really didn't want just to say anyone to feel like singled out or pointed out or criticized around this. I think it's something, it's like raising the consciousness. of this particular thing, which is hard to, it's so ubiquitous, is that the word? It's so every day that we don't pay attention to it so much unless there's some problem, like we really hurt somebody. I guess what's really coming up for me is I feel like here we are at Zen Center, like trying to do this practice, and I hear stories about people all the time, you know, like on an administrative level, and even like, oh, that person's great. for driving trucks, that person's not. And actually, this happened to me. When I first got here, they were like, oh, you'll be great at driving trucks. I don't know where that story came from. And one of the ways I tried to counteract it was I sent Linda a picture of a truck I sumped in mud up to the headlights in Texas.

[39:01]

And I was like, yeah, I know how to drive in mud. Look what I did here. So like, anyway, I just, having this reaction here where that's coming up, you know, this story, you know, the ones that I benefit from and the ones that other people don't benefit from. And, uh, yeah. Yeah. I, um, there's, as I say, there's a lot, that's why I wanted the class to go a little longer and actually, cause I, um, it's, it's a very, uh, ripe topic and it touches us and, uh, You know, silence is not the answer, and idle chatter is not the answer. You know, what's our practice around this? We do have to pass information on. We do have to know who can drive a truck. We don't just let anybody drive the truck. You know, so how do we do that with the mind of benefit, goodwill, affection, and, you know, coming from there rather than interest in judging who's better than somebody else or doesn't know how or whatever.

[40:09]

So it's not that we can't get out of it. We have to live our lives together and do all sorts of things, not just sit together. I see a hand over there. Was that Dylan? And there's Diego and Sam. Let me just... And Kim. Okay. Do you all want to do this listening thing? I really wanted you to practice listening to one another, which seems really important, and we won't have a chance to do it. We could talk about this more during Sashim. Oh, we have the last. That's true. We have one more kind of Dharma event. The people who raised your hands, Dylan and Kim and Diego and Sam, and people can talk about this tomorrow. This might be an interesting topic at the breakfast table. What do you think?

[41:10]

Can we let it go, do you think? And do this listening exercise? Do you feel okay about it? Yes? Am I seeing yeses? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Thank you. Thank you all very much for letting go. And maybe tomorrow at breakfast we can continue. Okay? Small talk and conversation. Yeah. So let's shift gears and think about our practice of listening to one another. The last time we did this, I think the kitchen might have left. Do you remember kitchen? You did leave. Yes. Okay. So you're not going to leave this time. And I'll just go over what we were asking everyone to do, going to twos. And one person is the one to start. And they speak about, this was lying, but it will be something to do with speech today, either around this topic right now. idle chatter, abandoning, or divisive or harsh, something around your speech practice and something that you remember and that you remember because there was consequences or you were affected by it some way or another.

[42:22]

And you tell that story and the other person completely listens. They don't make any comment. They don't interrupt and ask questions. They don't say, me too. Same thing happened to me. It's no crosstalk. You just listen completely. in an upright position, like loving that person, loving hearing what they have to say, meaning full-hearted attention. And then what we're going to add this time is you're going to have a chance to say what you heard, not verbatim, meaning not every single word, but kind of the gist of what they told you, pulling out maybe what was important, what was hard, what was... something about the story. Okay? That's one person speak, one person listens, and then says back what they heard. And then there'll be a chance for the speaker to say, you missed something. You missed a big part here.

[43:23]

You forgot that this happened. And that really made... Okay, so you can correct a little bit after what got left out. Okay? And this... What this is called is looping, where one person speaks, the other person listens, and loops it back, finishes the circle. Okay, does everyone understand the exercise? Yeah, so I was thinking we'd do about five to tell the story, three to tell it back. and five and three, what does that make? 16 and we've got 16, right? Let's do four minutes of speaking and three minutes of saying it back, okay? And then, oh, we need a minute to correct if there's need to be correction. Two minutes back? Okay.

[44:25]

Three, two, one. No, excuse me, four, two, one. Four to speak, we're losing time, I know. three to say it back and one minute to either say you missed this part and to correct or to just thank your partner. Okay? So please get into twos, twos these dyads and you can go out here too if it's not too cold maybe. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[45:10]

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