This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. I thought I'd introduce myself. My name is Shinshu Roberts. I lived at San Francisco Zen Center for, I don't know, maybe 17 years. Lived down here for four years. When I was here, let's see, 1986, 87 through 1970. I was 10 so long I was here. That's the big job. Yeah. I am currently a teacher at Ocean Gate Zen Center and co-founder, co-teacher with my partner, Dajaku Kinst, who is a professor at the Institute of Buddha Studies, which is part of the Graduate Theological Seminary in Berkeley.

[01:13]

This book came out of a class that Linda, yay, Linda, kind of made happen. I had been down at Santa Cruz Zen Center and moved back to Zen Center, and Linda said, oh, you know, we'd like to do, how about doing a class on a guide at the Bodhisattva Way, right? And so we started meeting once a week, and then that's morphed into a group that meets once a month for three hours, usually in the art lounge at San Francisco Zen Center at City Center, and we've been studying Dogen for a bunch of years, and Uchi was one of the techs that we study. And out of that came this book. Right now we're studying two days, flowers of emptiness. So thank you, Linda. Thank you. Let's see, what else? I think that's enough about me. You know, when I was thinking of doing this class, what I did the last time I was watching this, I have copies of a chapter, a short report chapter, and I thought maybe we could read it out loud.

[02:27]

And then I could talk about it. So... Maybe just... I'm sure there's more puppies than people, so it won't be an issue. You know, I wrote this book for you guys. I wrote this book because what I wanted to do, it was write a commentary, a paragraph by paragraph commentary of 2G, Being Time, and first explain what the paragraph was about. Because I don't know about you, but I think Dogen's kind of hard to understand. So just, you know, what it was that he was saying and then try to say something about the practice of it. kind of contemporary practice of that particular point that he's trying to make.

[03:30]

So, yeah, so that's why I wrote the book. And so I hope that you have a chance to read it. Has everybody got a copy yet of this text? So here's what I thought we could do, is we could just... If you don't mind, we'll just read it out loud to each other so we can just, everybody reads like a paragraph. And I'll start out by reading the paragraph from Uji, of which this is a commentary. So the name of the chapter is, Am I a Buddha or a Demon? In spite of this, a person holds various views. At the time, he is unenlightened and has yet to learn the Buddhist Dharma. Hearing the words the time being, he thinks that at one time the old Buddha became a creature with three heads and eight arms, which is like a demon or we were in delusion. And that at another time he became a 16-foot Buddha, so that's just a Buddha. He imagines it as like crossing a river or a mountain.

[04:36]

The river and the mountain may still exist, but I have now left them behind. And at the present time I reside in a splendid vermilion palace. To him, the mountain or river and I are as distant from one another as heaven from earth. Greg, do you want to start? In this passage, Dogen explains that we think of spiritual awakening as happening in sequential time. Past is delusion. Present is working on getting rid of delusion. And future is attaining realization. He writes that we imagine our spiritual development to be like crossing a river or climbing a mountain. Once we've gotten over the stream and climbed the mountain, we will have arrived somewhere that no longer includes where we have been. This is a spiritual journey, right? We're crossing rivers, we're climbing mountains, and we're doing all these kinds of activities that we imagine to be a journey from delusion to realization. Dogen says, we didn't think, but I have now left them behind. We make up an imaginary progress.

[05:39]

We believe that in the past we were in delusion, but right now... we are somewhere along a continuum of practice leading to enlightenment. This erroneous model is based upon our initial misunderstanding of how one addresses the spiritual journey as a continuous sequence. We think that we cannot get to realization from our present delusion because realization resides in a different time than our current being time. For example, your criteria for spiritual progress might be that You can sit a seven-day machine, but maybe you can sit Zazen for 25 days straight. You think, I must be three-quarters of the way to enlightenment. Maybe you can dry towels with your body heat. It must be 90% along the way. You have an idea about the nature of this continuum from delusion to enlightenment. Concurrent with this kind of thinking,

[06:40]

is a notion that once we are enlightened, we can't go back to delusion. Mistakes are behind us, and perfection is in front of us. When you view your practice in this way, you think, oh, well, I left behind all those mistakes because I'm here on the path to enlightenment. You have arrived at the Vermillion Palace, the place of imagined enlightenment. When we view practice as a means to attain realization, We tend to view our previous stage as behind us and our attainment as not yet arrived. In this view, the mountain or the river is completely different from the place you are right now. Your struggles, difficulties you had, are something in the past, and they are not currently in your present situation. This is Dogen's description of how we get caught when we frame our spiritual path as steps and stages. But don't just apply this teaching to spiritual practice. Clinging to this way of thinking is always a problem, regardless of the situation.

[07:47]

Stephen Hyde likened his belief in sequential time to creating a gulf between oneself and one's experience. Being caught in thinking of time as three sequential time periods, past, present, and future, we, quote, obliterate the immediacy of comprehensive totality of the here and now, end quote. We are cutting ourselves off from our own life as well as the life of all beings. Ultimately, this is deeply disturbing and destructive. We adhere to this notion of time out of a kind of anxiety to touch the self. The desire to define realization as something outside of ourselves, only attainable at some future date and better than our current ordinary life, will only take us further from our true experiences. Yet we persist in this kind of fantasy about enlightenment. Our practice must continuously bring us closer to who we are in accordance with all of reality, not who we are as an idea about reality.

[08:49]

Jogan may be making a little play on words when he writes, To him, the mountain, the river, and I are as distant from one another as heaven from earth. Usually this expression is used to indicate a cross with our understanding, the gases of greater as heaven is from earth. To understand that delusion is something to be discarded and enlightenment is something to be picked up is really missing the point. We think delusion and enlightenment are as distant as heaven and earth, but actually it is our understanding that it is as distant as heaven is from earth. There truly is no distance at all. As we strive to close this imaginary gap between our situation and a seemingly distant place of enlightenment, we project upon the teachings our ideas of how to practice in order to attain this desired skill. Our striving may have the opposite effect of what we most desire. For example, in practice we sometimes misunderstand how to best use our energy. We think our effort must be harsh and we push ourselves to part. The result is that we end up creating an aversion to practice.

[09:53]

Our attempt to do our best actually backfires and we end up creating a chasm in our practice instead of a bridge. We do not trust our body-mind to find the way by relaxing into the practice without leaning into the gale-force wind of our expectations. It is this kind of misunderstanding that causes people to avoid meditation. They physically burn themselves out, or they constantly tell themselves that they think too much, and their effort is therefore futile, resulting in the feeling that practice activity and enlightenment are as distant as home from Earth. We think that the time of the river and the time of the mountain are separate from each other. We view them as stages along our path. Yet heaven and earth are not separate, and the way back is only a matter of hearing and understanding. The time of the river and the time of the mountain are not disconnected. We all hear in us and of us all the time. We must come back to what is unfolding right now. We are afraid to plant ourselves firmly in the present moment, perhaps because we sense

[10:58]

And to live fully in this moment is to experience the profound impermanence and changing nature of our life. We want to fix and control our understanding. We want to see a clear beginning, middle, and end to our spiritual path. We don't like surprises. Contrary to our intention, this kind of logic often traps us and leads us further and further from the freedom we seek. As we try to fix and quantify our experience, we find ourselves walled off from our life as it is unfolding. Perhaps we are afraid that if we face up on this situation, we will discover that we have a delusional 2.8 demon we fear. When we perceive our practice as off the mind, we think that we are far away from the Udo. Yet this is not so. Dogan addresses this big issue in his classical kato twarming minds. Wendy writes that practitioners think the way to advance in practice is to cut off their problems rather than working through their problems.

[12:03]

He calls working through, quote, cutting the complicated with the complicated. In this way, we use our problems as teaching tools to transform selfish and delusional practice into realized, skillful response. It is only when we address our current situation without trying to cut off or repress our difficulties that we will be able to fully address and transform our practice. This can only happen where we are, not where we wish we were. A way to explore our delicacies to define our practice is just as good or bad delusion is as Where is the Buddha, good person, when we are a three-headed creature, unskilled person? Where is the three-headed creature when we are a 16-foot Buddha? When we begin our studies, we may think, oh, I'm in delusion, and I'm deluded about the nature of reality, and if I do go like a kind of training, I'm going to become a Buddha.

[13:16]

Then we are in delusion. We think we are in delusion. particularly as an ace of knowledge, we are closer to being a Buddha. The good Buddha and the bad relational person are not keeping. When we are skillful, we are skillful. When we are off the mark, we are off the mark. Yet in our unskilledness, our essential nature is still the same. This foundational business of things is just as they are. It means we do not have to cut off or run away from our problems. Our problems are the soil in which we are within. This is today. You don't have to worry about finding the familiar palace. Heaven and Earth are united. Great. So, you know, I want to ask you all this question. Is there anyone here who doesn't know who Dogen Zenji is? Yay, all right. Good for you. So, Dogen Zenji lived from 1200 to 1253.

[14:18]

and he was the founder of Sobho Zen in Japan. And he wrote a lot, but what we're studying Uti being timed is from a text called Shobogenza, which means true dharma-ai, and the version of it that we most see is the 95-chapter version or fastball version. So this is the 11th fascicle. They're usually in chronological order. So he wrote this early on in his writing career. But Dogen is known for this kind of poetic, very difficult style of writing that takes a lot of unpacking to understand. So thank you for being honest about not knowing who Dogen is. So because he founded Soto Zen in our school, Soto Zen, that we read Dogen. You know, especially Westerners, modern Westerners who are very much into reading Dogen and trying to understand Dogen.

[15:21]

So one of the things that is most important to understand about Dogen that I think is a key teaching of his is what's called a Dharma position. So a Dharma position would be like a moment, a thing. So, for example, this cup is a Dharma position. You are a dharma physician. A moment is a dharma physician. So in Genja Koan, firewood is a dharma physician. Ash is a dharma physician. So the important thing about a dharma physician is that dharma physicians, they are singularly in and of themselves, as Shohaku Okamura likes to say, 100% whatever they are. So this is a very important concept. Dharma physicians have a before and after. So dharma physicians have something that would be like the past and the future of the Dharma position. So as Dogen says in Genjo Koan, he says, once firewood turns to ash, the ash cannot revert to being firewood.

[16:26]

So that's something that we all, sequential times, right? We have firewood that's being burned, it turns into ash, and this ash can't become firewood again. But he says you should not take the view that it is ashes afterwards and firewood before. So don't get caught in this notion of sequential practice. That's what this chapter is here. He's saying don't think about your practice as being sequential. Only thinking of it as sequential. That the only reason you're practicing is so that you won't be delusion, in delusion. And the only reason you're practicing is somehow you're going to become a better person. Or the only reason you're practicing is because... your idea of what enlightenment is. And usually our idea of enlightenment isn't life. It's really easy because people don't give us problems. Like if we were really enlightened, everybody would love us, right? So we'd never have any problems. So there's this way that we think about our practice in this kind of sequential way where we're trying to get to this idea we have about some goal that, of course, the more you practice, you realize that that goal

[17:36]

It's not really what you're up to. And if you continue to carry on that goal, it will just get further and further and further away as you run towards it. So this idea about, okay, so going back to the Dharma position, he says in Dinja Gohan, you should realize that all the firewood is at the Dharma stage of firewood. So that means firewood is 100% being firewood at that time. and that this is possessed of before and after, so he's not denying sequential time, the firewood is at the same time independent, completely cut off from before, completely cut off from after. So this is a super, super important concept in Dogen. The Dharma position has all of reality within the context of that Dharma position. So if you take, for example, this cup, which is made out of ceramics, This cup contains the whole world. The whole world had to come together to make this cup.

[18:39]

This Dharma position contains everything in it. If you think about Tassahara, you think about the stones and the walls, right? And all of the eons and eons that those stones come from. Or think about all the people who've practiced here. All the people who sat in the Zendo. All the animals that are here. Everything that you can think of comes together. in this particularity of this Dharma position. So in the context of this cup or the context of yourself or the context of this book or the context of anything that we're calling a Dharma position, everything is completely presencing at that moment within the context of that present moment of that being time of that Dharma position. And yet, simultaneously, it is completely 100% uniquely, particularly itself. And that's where we practice. We practice in the present moment. We don't practice with our ideas about something that's going to happen in the future.

[19:42]

We don't practice with some no caring, ideally, of course we do this all the time, but ideally we're not practicing by bringing all the baggage of the past into this. We are in this particular moment 100% responding to the moment which includes myriad things. In Gencha Poan, he says, to carry the self forward is delusion, to allow myriad things to come forth is realization. So these myriad things coming forth are coming forth within the context of this particular Dharma position, which includes everything else that's presencing simultaneously, while at the same time is just 100% that Dharma position. Make sense? Right? That's where we have free will. That's where our practice happens. That's where we get to decide how we're going to respond, unfettered by, ideally, unfettered by the things that we bring into that moment.

[20:45]

So if you think about a Dharma position as like a circle, you remember this, Linda? You think of this Dharma position as a circle? So you come into the circle, And if you come in with a lot of preconceived ideas, your angle of exit of that circle is going to be really narrow, right? You're going to have all, maybe you're angry or you're going to have a lot of negative feelings towards somebody and you're like, you're interacting with them and all the time you're interacting with them, you're like harboring your will and you're thinking, you know, what an idiot they are and all this kind of thing. So you don't actually hear. You're not actually relating to this person. You're relating to an idea about them. So your response could be only very narrow at that point. But if your response, if you can just be in that moment completely, your response is a 360 degree response. At that point, you can respond with what's the most appropriate response for all the myriad factors that are rising in that moment.

[21:51]

That's where our practice happens, right there. When we're sitting zazen, we are sitting... 100% this moment, presencing ourselves for reality as it is arising within the context of that experience that we're having at that moment. And that's happening within that Dharma position. It's not happening in the future. It's not happening in the past. Plus, of course, the past doesn't exist anymore and the future doesn't exist. The only past and future that you can have is the past and future that you're experiencing in the present moment. because there's no way for you to experience anything else other than the present moment. Isn't that true? It's not to say that the past didn't happen. Doggett's not saying the past didn't happen. He says, Firewood has a before and after. So sequential time, he's not denying sequential time, but he's saying the time right now, as he says in the show, the time right now, the time to arrive is the time right now.

[22:55]

So this moment that we are engaging in our life right now. So in this text here, that's what he's talking about here when he talks about this. He says, first of all, he says, you know, one of the problems with this idea about having a sequential practice model in our minds, and I kind of made a joke, right? I mean, this whole thing about... If you can dry, you know, your robes out. The Tibetan practice is where it's like, I don't know, I read about this when I first started practicing. People go out in the snow and they, you know, they dry towels and things, and that's, like, pretty cool. So we don't do that in Soto Zen. You just have to use the dryer or hang it out in the wash line. You know, it's like you don't get to do that fancy stuff. So there's this way in which, though, but I did have this idea. I remember when I sat Tongaro here, I thought, I was going to sit like, I wasn't going to leave the Zendo.

[23:59]

I was just going to stay in the Zendo. And Linda Ruth said to me, Linda Ruth Coutts said, well, maybe you should just follow the schedule. And I thought to myself, that was at City Center before I came to Newtown Valley. I thought to myself, well, you know, it's like, yeah, that sounds nice, but I'm just going to go do this thing. Well, when I got here, following the schedule was like super hard, as you all know. So my preconceived ideas about what I was going to do and how it was going to be didn't work out the way I thought they were going to work out. I also had a five-year enlightenment plan. Guess what? It didn't work out that way. So all these kind of models that we have about who we should be, so I mean I'm kind of like giving you examples that were true of me, but we also do more subtle things. where we have these expectations of ourselves that somehow we're just not going to get caught. Somehow we're not going to have problems. Somehow we're not going to do things that are unskillful.

[25:00]

And so we beat ourselves up because we have these preconceived ideas about how we should be or what a spiritual practitioner is, what it is to be a Buddha. So we have these notions about what a Buddha is or notions about what a demon is. So we make up this imaginary progress So these are making up standards on our own, right? We have merging of difference in unity, which you probably read occasionally during service. Don't make up standards on your own if you don't understand the path as it meets your eyes. How can you know the ways you walk? And we don't understand the path often as it meets our eyes. And so it's hard to walk that path. Progress is not a matter of near or far, far or near, But if you were confused, mountains and rivers blocked the way. Probably Dogen, when he was talking about mountains and rivers blocking the way, was actually referring to this first.

[26:03]

So when we make up these standards, when we think about our practice in a sequential way, it's really problematic for us. Has anybody had that experience? So when we talk about practice realization, this is another key concept in Dogen. Practice realization, and we say practice-realization. So we don't practice to become realized. Practice itself is an expression of realization. So what is it? Why do we practice? What is it that motivates us to practice? So we might think that we're motivated to practice because we want to be better, and I'd say there's nothing wrong with that. But what is our deepest, deepest part that's motivating us to practice?

[27:09]

It's our Buddha nature that motivates us to practice. It's the part of us that already knows that that everything is in an interconnected, interpenetrating relationship with everything else. It's the part of us that already knows that when we deeply understand that, we are able to be skillful and compassionate. And so I think that's the part of us that most wants to drive us or asks us to practice. And so when we practice, that's what we're expressing. And as soon as we practice, because Dogen's model is non-sequential, because It has this non-dual aspect. Dogen says, as soon as you sit down, as soon as you practice, you are Buddha. So it's not steps and stages practice. We say, you know, as soon as you sit down on the cushion, you are Buddha. We say that, but as soon as you anything, you are never not Buddha because we are the essence of Buddha nature. And yet simultaneously, of course, maybe we're not expressing our true nature.

[28:13]

Maybe we're caught in delusion and not being skillful. In Busceau, Dogen says that Buddhahood and Buddhanature, in order for Buddhahood and Buddhanature to be expressed, it has to be expressed as Buddhahood. And there's that simultaneity of the two arising together in the expression. Buddhahood is never not there because Buddhanature is the true nature of all of reality. It is just how things are, and yet simultaneously that can't be expressed unless we actually express it. So practice realization is this expression of our Buddha nature. Does anybody have any thoughts or comments about this? Yes. When you said a little while ago that when we deeply understand that, we... we are able to act skinfully.

[29:16]

Right. It seems that there's, I always sort of feel that I can only, that I practice for a deeper understanding and that when I, when I recognize, like I've heard people say they've had moments where they just feel totally connected with the universe and one with all beings, and that, like, then... compassionate, patient, skillfully. I don't think so. You know, those kinds of experiences are very nice. And I think those kinds of experiences give us some sense of our kind of faith or foundation in a way of having a visceral response. But where we actually respond with compassion is in our everyday lives. And you probably do it all the time. This skillful response is the response of Buddha. This skillful response, the response of Buddha is not something that's woo-woo and, you know, kind of out of the ordinary.

[30:22]

So when you're driving your car, I know you guys aren't driving a whole lot down here right now, but when you're driving your car and you let somebody in, that's the response of a Buddha. That is this way in which we skillfully respond to the totality of the experience that we're having. And yet we just think of that as everyday activity. It's not important to us. We don't think of that as being enlightened. But that's enlightened response. Enlightened response is just a response that is a response that's inclusive of the totality of what's arising in that moment. And it's a skillful response and a compassionate response. So enlightenment is not about having some kind of satori experience about non-duality. Enlightenment is this way in which we actually respond to what's happening within the context of the Dharma position that we're in. It's really simple. And when we bring the self forward, that's when we bring our selfishness.

[31:25]

That's when we try to control a situation. That's when we try to put it in a box. That's when we do things that are unskillful is because we only have our own agenda. We don't have anything, an agenda that includes the totality of the situation. So what we want to do is, and that's what fully occupying a Dharma position is, is it must include everything. And you can't see everything, like everything, but you can see everything that is within the sphere of your experience that you're having in that moment and respond to that the best that you can. Because that's all we can do, right? That's all we can do, and so we do our best to make our best response. Thank you. One of my favorite things. Hang on a second. Does that make sense to you, what I just said? It does, but I am still left with this mode of operating that I'm not fully aware of

[32:36]

my situation in the universe. You can't be fully aware of your situation in the universe. It's like we can't hold all that at the same time. So what we do is just do our best to be present within the best that we are capable of doing in that moment. That's what we're being asked to do. We can't have these big, giant, you know, like cosmic experiences all the time, or even some of the time, you know? What we're doing is paying attention to our life as it is right now. So if your job this summer is to clean cabins, then you go and you clean cabins. That's the activity of the Buddha. The activity of you as a Buddha in that moment is to clean cabins. Or the activity of you in this moment is to join the line out there and move the stuff into the truck. That's it. That's it. That's the activity that you're engaged in. Pay attention to that. Don't worry about the other stuff. Yeah. One of the simplest phrases in Uji that I really enjoyed is that one thing doesn't hinder another, or you use a different translation.

[33:46]

It'll come to me in a minute. So thinking of what Roberta is expressing, there's also language about missing the time, or in your translation, not reaching. And so I'm thinking of, gee, I'm really disappointed. I didn't meet those 10,000 myriad things just now. And what Dogen says is that half the time, missing the time, not reaching, is also being time. So in my unskillful moments, I am occupying the Dharma position. I am being time in that unskillfulness. Yes. You cannot be anything but being time. It is not possible to be outside the context of being time. Now the question is, are you expressing being time?

[34:47]

So here's the thing. This was a joke. I'm going to read this passage. This was a joke when we were studying Uji. Just because it's so... So quintessentially, Dogen. Let's see. Just make sure I get the right one. One does nothing but penetrate exhaustively entire time as being time. There is nothing remaining left over. Because any dharma left over is as such a leftover dharma, even the being time of a partial, exhaustive, Penetration is an exhaustive penetration of a partial being time. Okay? So, gee, what would that be about? But then the next line is, even a form of understanding that appears to be blundering is being. Okay? So this, what in the world is a partial being time? A partial being time is something you're defining as a partial being time.

[35:50]

You're defining your blunders, as his translation puts it, as not good enough, as somehow not in the context of this process or this life or something. Because being time, all this being time is, is just things as they are. That's all. So that includes you, whether you're being skillful or unskillful. So from that perspective, there can't be a partial being time. In that perspective, blundering is not outside the context. Mistakes are not outside the context. Delusion is not outside the context of being time. I think you were first. When you're saying that, it's helpful because my first start practicing, I always hear everything's perfect. And I think that's what you're saying. It's not that. There isn't suffering, it's not that there's not poverty, it's not that there's not justice, it's just perfection in this moment.

[36:53]

Because there's nothing outside of this movement, nor could that environment is a rising wave to rise, and therefore it's perfect. But I don't necessarily think that teachers always clarify or define that work perfect in a way that they just didn't know you didn't say this is a definition of perfection. Well, perfect is a tough word, because we have all this baggage that goes with perfect. Perfect is a perfect example of all the things that we do to persuade or to tell ourselves about what's perfect. All the criteria we make up. If we just drop all that stuff, then we can drop perfect too, at least in the context that we think of it. Because reality itself is perfect, even though there is suffering and violence and all these things, which I have to tell you that this is not about Dover. It's just about my own thing. It's like, what, you know, what is it? that we live in this crazy world where people are doing all these outrageously vital things to each other. And when I think about that, I think, well, that's because we live in the Saha world and we do Bodhisattva practice.

[37:58]

So the Bodhisattva practice is to wake up. The Bodhisattva practice is to find out what it is to practice a myriad things, to find out about compassion and interconnectedness and to actually respond in the best way that we can. In each moment, we don't have to go to some other country to save people. All we need to do is pay attention to what we're doing right now. But we like to make up all these stories about what it is that we ought to be doing that's going to, like, save the world. But in reality, what saves the world? Because if you think of this model that Dogen has, because everything is completely interconnected with everything else, which is not Dogen, that's just Buddhist teaching, But in this non-sequential net way, what you do makes a difference to the totality of the world, to the totality of the universe, what you do in this moment right now. What we're doing right now makes a difference, even though we can't see what that is. So there's this kind of faith that we have in the essential altruistic nature of reality.

[39:05]

Yes, sir. So I think the answer to my question is that it's paradox, and we just have to live with the paradox of everything is perfect, but there's lots of room for improvement. But the best way we can or moving into the circle and not being narrow, but having 360 degrees sounds like a standard. it sounds like a better and a worse, and not everything is perfect, and not a partial time being. And so is it just a matter of everything is perfect, but there's lots of room for improvement, we have to live within the paradox, or is there another way that we can understand how these seemingly opposed ideas work together? Well, I think it's very helpful to have an intellectual model. Okay, I'm a person who You know, it's fairly intellectual. And so I have this notion in my head, like I give you this model of the 360 degrees. So I think it's helpful to have some notion about what it is you're up to.

[40:09]

Right? That's why we have teachers. That's why we have sutras. That's why we have all these books about Buddhism. So that we can have some model. That's why we're reading Dogen. So that we can have some notion about what the territory is. So that we have a map. Right? And then we have to walk the map. We can't just, getting there is not just looking at the map. We actually have to do the map. And so we do the map and we discover that, wow, there's a big chasm here that wasn't on the map. Or gosh, there are all these nails on the road that aren't supposed to be on the road. And all of these things that we actually discover. But because we have this notion about being maybe more inclusive is our notion. Maybe not holding on to some fixed idea that we have as our notion. So then we include this nails on the road. We say, okay, nails on the road is okay. Nails on the road is things just as they are. My model says to me, you know, maybe you should just chill about nails on the road.

[41:12]

Not worry about nails on the road. Or if there's a nail on the road, maybe you pick the nail up. Or if somebody's tired, they get it, then you stop them and help them change their tire. I don't know, but it's... It's this way in which the situation itself is going to define the danger of the experience. So, in a way, you don't have to hold the paradox. All you have to do is be willing to let go of the preconceived idea within the context of, is it helpful? Right? Is it helpful? If it's not helpful, get another paradigm. Right? Because that's the thing. When you say to carry... To carry this all forward as illusion is not helpful. To allow Mary things to come and meet you is to say, what can I do to help this situation? How can I be present for what this is? So that was going to be my question. You said, is it helpful or not? But why helpful? How do we pick our values and how do we determine

[42:16]

what's helpful or what's not. Different people in the world seem to be having different ideas right now about what's helpful. Well, that's a problem. I mean, it's hard to know. Always know what's helpful. But one criteria we can use is to say to ourselves, does this help or can I be present for the dialogue that's going on between all the different factors in this situation? Can I be present for that dialogue in a way in which I'm not trying to force my own viewpoint? Can I be open to the totality of the dialogue that's happening? Most of the time, that is enough. If you go to a meeting, and you go to the meeting and you have this idea like it has to be a certain way, and then you start listening to everybody else and actually being open to what they're saying, you might find that there's a compromise, or there's a different way of doing it, or something else is going to happen in your preconceived idea.

[43:19]

That's skillful means. If you go into the meeting and you actually have the power in the meeting, and you push your own agenda without being open at all to anything else anyone else says, I would say that that's unskillful. That's not very good leadership. Right? It's hard to answer your question in a real do this, do this, do this kind of way because it really is predicated upon the situation. But we also have precepts, right? Precepts are very good. Precepts are koans. We can't live without killing. So the question becomes, what does it mean to say do not kill? What does it mean to say in the mind of the Bodhisattva, there is no killing? In the mind of the Bodhisattva, there is no stealing. So then we say to ourselves, am I stealing? Am I taking something that is not given? It's not just about whether or not I go and steal pencils or whether or not I go somewhere and take something, physical object.

[44:22]

Maybe it's an emotion. Maybe it's an idea. Maybe it's many things. So I think that's in one way that we do that is that we bring in the precepts. I think part of my question was... Sort of, what's the compass point? Or how do you understand the compass point that we orient toward? Because obviously we're responding to what's arising in the moment. It's not... We have to orient towards... Personally, I think we have to orient towards all the myriad things that are coming forth in that moment that were within the context of our decision-making. Does that make sense? So... So there's a lot of things going on and we're not aware of everything. We cannot be aware of everything that's going on in the whole universe. But we can try to be aware of what's going on in this particular moment within the sphere of what we're doing. And to try to be inclusive and open and realize that we are in an interconnected relationship with all the elements in that situation.

[45:26]

What's the most respectful... that we can bring towards each individual aspect of this moment and realizing that it has intrinsic value. Does that make sense to you? So that's kind of my criteria for how I think about doing that. Can you do it all the time? No. You know? And we can't always remember, but I think that's the goal. And we do have lots of we do have lots of of guidelines for how to do this in Buddhism. You agree? No? I'm thinking. One of the things that's, I mean, that is its own set of values. That is a value proposition, part of which is that greater inclusivity is something to strive for.

[46:27]

That there's, I mean, You know, I don't think I ever thought of it as being like a worldview before, but given the world today, it's becoming pretty clear that this is one worldview among others. And then how do we... I mean, this feels very natural to me. This is how I run in. Okay. But it's like, how do we relate to others? Well, you know, I don't. I think about... So I don't know if this is what you're saying, but... You know, World War II, it was a situation where there were a lot of people who had different ideas about what was going on, and there were people who were using force to bring across their ideas, and that force was destroying the spirit, the life of so much, oppressing so much,

[47:29]

And so at that point, there was a decision that could push back on that. And that pushing back is setting limits and boundaries. So that was, you know, so people went and they started fighting each other and killing each other, right? That's an extreme example of setting those boundaries. Is that always wrong? I don't think we can say that. You know, we can't say that. Do we know when it's right to do it? But we can't make up a hard and fast rule about when it's right. We can't make up a modern fast rule, maybe even when it's wrong. So that's the thing. It's like we have to do our best that we can do in that situation. I will say, though, about setting boundaries, there's nothing wrong with setting boundaries. What's important is to do it in a way that's not punitive, right? Because sometimes we need to set boundaries. Sometimes we need to say to people, no, you can't do that. You know, that's not okay for you to do that.

[48:29]

But how do we do it in a way that's not punitive? How do we do it in a way that's compassionate? How do we do it in a way that's realistic for the situation? So these are like, you know, our life co-ons. So is that kind of what you're talking about? Yeah, it's not that I'm in any opposition. It's just that it's opened up a myriad... ideas, memories, realms of thought. It seems kind of developmental to me, that we kind of start as children and, you know, that we're very self-centered, and then we start relating to others, and then it's like mine, and then it's sharing, and then we can do things together, and then we can form, you know, then they become adults. And then it's, you know, but there's also a way that the sum is greater than the individual parts, And that seems to be more life-giving than death-dealing, to be able to see wider and have a larger, more spacious field in which to operate.

[49:40]

Absolutely. Less reactive. Absolutely. Less reactive. And that's it. Where do these reactions come from? They come from our preconceived ideas about things. So we'll become letting go of that and become more flexible, less reactive. That's right. And we're less defensive. You know, the clashes, the things that we do that are unskillful, generally, I would say the base emotion of that is fear, right? And it's a fear of some kind of annihilation of the self, some kind of physical annihilation or some kind of annihilation of our ideas. which is how we define ourselves. I'm right, I'm wrong, I'm good, I'm bad, all those kind of words. And so can we find a way in which we are fine, just the way they are, just the way we are, and we don't have to be frightened about that. And so in some ways, I think it's easier to reach that state around ideas, much less hard to reach that state around bodily protection.

[50:48]

You know? Yes? That's part of my ongoing curiosity. I mean, you've just spoken truth basically again and again and again and again to an audience that I don't know what you're imagining, if we're getting it or not, but it seems like very compassionate speech. And so I live in this monastery, and these ideas are always the truth in words. And yes, as you say in the body, for I think most, not everyone here, there is some fear or some, I think fear is probably, you touched on that in your talk. So I have this feeling like, where's the skillful means for transforming that and letting go so this understanding is as natural as, you know. Well, you know,

[51:49]

When you come to Tassajara, you bring all your baggage with you that you had when you were outside of Tassajara. So maybe you think you came to Tassajara to leave it all behind, but you brought it all with you, you know. And so that means that, you know, some people you like and some people you don't like. And it means, you know, all those things. And the other thing about, you know, they're making noise in the Zendo and they're doing this and they're doing that and you can't stand it. Or it's like, but the other thing is when you're at Tashara, you know, especially during the winter, it's like you hear somebody walking on the agawa and you know exactly who that is just by the sound of their feet. You know it when you hear them coming up the steps or walking down the path, you know who that person is. It's like you get so intimately interconnected with each other that you immediately know who that other person is. You feel their pain. You know what frightens them. Even though you may not articulate it to yourself, you know so much about each other.

[52:50]

And you are one organism. You are one thing here doing this thing together. You are completely interconnected with each other in your fear and in your joy and in your practice and in the times that you feel like you're not practicing the time that you think you are. And so at those times when you hate that person, remember the sound of them walking across the Gala. At the times that you most want to kill somebody, remember the early morning walking to the Zendo. It's like, open your heart, you know, to the struggles that you're all sharing down here together. Even though they maybe have a different form, they're all the same. We're all human beings. Everybody down here, everybody in the whole world, but in particular, you guys. You know, this summer, It's going to get hot. You know, it's going to be like 115 degrees, and you're going to be toting around those bags of laundry or in the kitchen, you know, and you're going to be like tired, and all those things are going to be happening, and you're going to be like, gosh, I wish this were the winter.

[53:56]

I wish those guests would drop dead. I'm so tired of putting them in the baths talking when I want to be in there. All the things that go on for you, right? And then at the same time, you remember people come down here to Tassajara, and they are like, This is the most amazing experience. I am so transformed. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You know, so it's like all this stuff is going on all the time. And it's true, all of it's true. And again, you incorporate it all together into one big thing called just this. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I hope you guys have a good summer. I'm just telling you my bad mind, right? My critical mind when I was down here in the summer. My poor summer was down here. Yes. I just was thinking about some of the issues that we talked about here as far as like values and talking again about inclusivity and fear.

[55:10]

Various things along those lines have kind of been percolating, I think many of us, now that Zen Center is really looking at inclusivity. And I think that peace, I think that finding peace Each individual or as a community to be able to experience peace kind of has to be a priority over engaging. But sometimes inclusivity isn't always the best. Like I keep thinking of this, the deaf community. people would feel sorry for the deaf people and really wouldn't let them use sign language, destructed them to learn to, you know, be part of the world.

[56:12]

So that's not inclusivity, that's carrying the self forward. That's a way in which we have preconceived ideas about how old people should be, and we carry that and force it upon them in a way that's unhealthy. But the deaf people will really find a lot of value in their life when they are, when they have a group of people similar to them. They're using sign language that are, there's a lot of value for a deaf person in their identity as a member of the deaf culture. Yeah, okay. Well, I guess I just feel like there's, like people I get Larry Yang's book now is talking about the need for a time where you have specific groups together. I don't think this teaching says you can't do that.

[57:14]

That's not what it's about. Well, I don't know if I expressed myself well. Well, I think that there are times when we need to get together in groups that are groups of like-minded people sharing things together. There are times that we need to get into bigger groups, and it just depends on the circumstances and what's the right thing for that situation. They're Dharma physicians. They're a way of gathering the moment appropriately. Yeah. So sometimes it's skillful to get together in a smaller group, and sometimes it's skillful to be more inclusive. So it depends on the situation. It's very situational. It's not, there are no rules per se, although I guess there are paradigms, but not rules. How's that? This sounds really kind of odd. Yeah. I think we're close to the end, right? Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center.

[58:18]

Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[58:34]

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