This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. Well, I'd like to begin by thanking and acknowledging my teacher, Sojin Mel Weitzman Roshi. And to say that, you know, this talk is hopefully just to encourage you in your practice. I also want to thank Hoja-san, Christina, Abbas Christina, who once again has helped me out by telling me what to talk about.

[01:00]

This is a big help. Maybe you don't realize you told me what to talk about, but we're talking about sangha. Now we're studying sangha. We're studying practicing joyfully together. So I'd like to talk about that in a kind of roundabout complicated way, probably. Well, we'll see. We'll see how it works out. Wish me luck. In the spirit of Sangha, Linda Galleon and I just recently, with your permission, with the support of the Avis and the Chusso, we went to visit avid Steve on his deathbed.

[02:06]

I'm sorry to use that language but that's reality. He's at home in his house in Rohnert Park and they moved the hospital bed into a room there and it's set up as pretty much a hospital room, although with all comforts. I saw on his bedside table, he had the sports page and the record of Hongzhi. And Linda and I were Very much, we felt that our visit was bringing the practice period to Steve.

[03:08]

We came as emissaries of the Sangha, which we told him that several times. We expressed our love to him. As he said, in the talk that he gave in Green Gulch that we listened to in the dining room, he's found that people are saying I love you to him a lot more readily and he's saying I love you back to people a lot more readily and I bring Abbott Steve's love to you. I want to express on his behalf his love for you, his connection. I don't know what more I can say about it.

[04:15]

He's in a lot of pain. As you've heard from the reports, And he talked about some with us, his learning curve with managing pain and how that's been working out. He says, you know, he said he learned a lot. He's learned a lot. He said, I never had a terminal illness before. And... I think he's doing better with that. And he actually, when we visited, he had just had chemo, so we had to wear masks and put hand sanitizer on, you know, be very careful. We couldn't hug him as much as we wanted to.

[05:17]

As much as he wanted to hug us, that was out. You could tell that he was on a fair amount of pain management, some artificial help, but not easily. You couldn't tell that so easily, because he was really present. In many ways, he was really just good old avid Steve. But he was a little bit drifty sometimes. He gestured up to the top from where he was sitting across from him was a chest of drawers, and the top of it was pretty much covered with medications. He's like, look at that. And also up there was a blue Medicine Buddha. And he said Medicine Buddha came, and then along with the Medicine Buddha, it was Jizo Bodhisattva,

[06:23]

and Ganesh. And Abba Steve said, you know, Ganesh, the Hindu elephant god? Abba Steve said, well, the medicine Buddha invited Ganesh to come. Ganesh was invited to come and be there on his chest of drawers. And he said, he was describing his pain, you know, which is like, basically, he's got pancreatic cancer, but it's met everywhere. All this... insides and the pain is everywhere. He said Ganesha takes his trunk and massages his internal organs. Very sweet image. That's his practice. He talked a lot about doing Dharma transmission with his student, his disciple, Christine Palmer, which he's been working on for some time.

[07:31]

And he showed us pictures on his smartphone. Actually, he had pictures of the ceremony of Menjuhai, which is the beginning of Dharma transmission, but actually the most important part, face-to-face transmission. When Mel did that with Linda and me, it was the beginning of our Dharma Transmission ceremony. Well, with me, you know, this is two separate Menjuhais, but with me, he said, well, actually, we're done. We can stop now, and your Dharma Transmission would be good. But actually, he's continuing with Christine as long as he's alive, and I think Christine is going to keep working on the ceremony there at his house in Roanoke Park, which is kind of great. Lane and his wife and his student and assistant, Mary Stairs, are just living there.

[08:37]

It's kind of a different world than just taking care of Abbot Steve. So, talking about Dharma Transmission, talking about student and teacher, talking about Sangha. My talk is actually inspired by something from this novel, A Tale for the Time Being, which is written by Ruth Ozeki. who is a priest in our lineage. She was ordained by Zoketsu Norman Fisher. That makes her my Dharma niece. And Allison has set she in with Ruth.

[09:38]

Not all of Ruth's books are so informed by Zen practice, but this one really is. The title, Time Being, refers to Shobha Ganso Fastical Uji, Being Time. I can recommend it. I read this mostly a month ago when I was sick. Quite enjoyed it. But she's got some really interesting appendices in the back of the book. I think five or so different appendices that relate to things that she talks about in the book. And appendix B is about quantum mechanics because she mentions quantum mechanics several places. You know, it's just modern physics, several places in the book. And so she says... At the smallest scales in atomic increments, energy and matter start to play by different rules, which classical physics can't account for.

[10:47]

So quantum mechanics attempts to explain these quirks by positing a new set of principles that apply to atomic and subatomic particles, among which are superposition, entanglement, the measurement problem, and entanglement, she says, entanglement by which two particles can coordinate their properties across space and time and behave like a single system i.e a zen master and his disciple a character and her narrator etc so i want to talk about entanglement i want to talk about entanglement as it relates to uh zen master and student student and teacher and Sangha. So entanglement is actually another Shubha Genzo fascicle called Kato.

[11:50]

Kato is translated in the translation by Kaz Tanahashi and Mel Weitzman. The translation is Twining Vines. And in the Nishijima Cross translation, the translation is the complicated. The complicated. Or you could also say the entangled. It's two kanji, kato, and the kat is katsu, or kudzu. Same word, right? Katsu, kudzu. or arrowroot. So if you've ever lived in the south, you know about kudzu. That's a vine and it grows everywhere. It grows like crazy. And the toe is wisteria, which we have growing in front of the stone office.

[12:56]

So I guess in Japan, these two plants can grow together without any other means of support and just get so totally entangled, you don't know what's what. So, yeah, kudzu and wisteria, twining vines, completely entangled. And usually this has a negative connotation in Zen, any Zen except Dogen. And in modern Japanese, you know, kato, complications, You know, that doesn't sound so good. Entanglement, you know? Are we supposed to get rid of entanglement? Are we supposed to, like, cut off the root of entanglement? In modern Japanese, kato is translated as troubles, discord, dissension, complications.

[14:06]

Doesn't sound so good. But Dogen, being Dogen, he turns it upside down. And he says, entanglement is how we practice. Entanglement is how dharma is transmitted. The fascicle itself is a lot of fun. I remember It's one of the ones we studied for Dharma Transmission with Mel. I remember really enjoying studying it. Dogen goes on and on about Bodhidharma and his four disciples, the story of how Bodhidharma says, you have my skin, you have my flesh, you have my bones, you have my marrow, and just runs with that particular ball and has...

[15:08]

A lot of fun turning it upside down, saying that if you have the skin, you have the whole thing, calling the four disciples the four little bodhidharmas. Yeah, it's kind of fun. I can recommend it. But I don't want to really spend too much time talking about the fascicle itself. I want to read you a little bit of it, though. Although there are a number of sages, who try to study by cutting off the root of twining vines. They do not regard the cutting of twining vines with twining vines as cutting. Also, they do not know twining vines entangled with twining vines. Furthermore, how can they understand inheriting twining vines through twining vines? Those who notice that inheriting Dharma is twining vines, are rare. What the heck?

[16:19]

I would think, my simple-minded view is if I want to cut some twining vines, I would probably want a machete, something like maybe Manjushri's sword there, that might help me cut some twining vines. How the heck am I going to cut twining vines with twining vines? How am I going to get free from entanglement with entanglement? How do I practice being free in entanglement? Here's Suzuki Roshi. Suzuki Roshi says vine and ivy. The transcribers said, vain? It's vine. Apparently when he said it, it sounded more like vain. Vine and ivy is, if you take it in a bad sense, it is, you know, entanglement of your life.

[17:23]

But if you understand it, it will encourage your creativity. It will encourage your freedom, even. It means you have various ways to go. It does not mean because you have idea of self, you know it is entanglement. But if you have no idea of self and follow around entanglement, accept the entanglement just as relationship between many things, and you are one of the many. If you have this kind of understanding, you have innumerable way of life on this moment. Okay, here's Dogen again. Ready? Ru Jing, my late master, old Buddha, said, Gord vines entangle with gourd vines. This teaching has never been seen or heard in the various directions of the past and present.

[18:31]

Ru Jing alone spoke it. Gourd vines entangle with gourd vines means that Buddha ancestors thoroughly experience Buddha ancestors. Buddha ancestors merge with Buddha ancestors in realization. This is transmitting mind by mind. So the transmission goes both ways. The understanding flows both ways. The Dharma flows equally in all directions. There's actually no problem. Suzuki Roshi said many times, sometimes the teacher is the teacher and the student is the student. Sometimes the student is the teacher and the teacher is the student. Both are good. Both are really good.

[19:32]

Who is the teacher? In the self-receiving and employing samadhi that we chant every noon service. It says, grass, trees, and walls bring forth the teaching for all beings, common people as well as sages. I think it would be really good to understand this as not just words. I'm very inspired by Abbas Cristina's teaching of body practice. How do we embody grass, trees, and walls bringing forth the teaching? I think we should really study very carefully how water oak and willow practice together.

[20:39]

How we practice with the person sitting next to you on the Tan, how Water Oak and Willow practice together, how we practice with Water Oak and Willow. When I first lived in Tassajara, a lot of people would ask me, isn't it difficult for you being at Tassajara and your teacher is in Berkeley? and you hardly ever see him? People ask me that lots of times, actually, and I'd always say the same thing. I see Mel everywhere I go in Tassajara. I did not feel separate from Mel, and I don't now. So Sangha includes practicing with all beings.

[21:54]

All beings are your dear friends. And speaking of dear friends, isn't it amazing how this practice period, the deer have just come in. They've just walked in I never seen anything quite like it before I I hope they don't become tame actually but the way we and they are just kind of permeable you know their world in our world has become kind of permeable just like oh there's another deer And I don't know what deer think, but maybe they think, oh, there's another monk. Or there's another fairly calm black moving object. You know? Or black stationary object.

[23:00]

I don't know. I don't know what deer think. But I think it's kind of amazing that our worlds have become sort of permeable. And I cherish that. I cherish the connection. During Tangario, at the beginning of the practice period, it's right after work period. During work period, there's a lot of hustle and bustle and people talking all the time and machinery, power tools and stuff moving around and lots of vehicles and stuff. And then Boom. It just gets so quiet during Tangariyo. And one morning during Tangariyo, during a break in the mid-morning, I was stretching my legs and I walked out towards Grasshopper Flats and I saw some deer and I sort of

[24:07]

walked towards them and they walked down towards the creek and I was by the massage gazebo and there's this fence going around the massage gazebo and then I came out through the other side of the fence towards the road and evidently the fence had been kind of a blind for me I wasn't making very much noise as I came out through the opening onto the road there was a bobcat right there in the middle of the road and I was like oh hi There you are. Bobcat sees me. I see the bobcat. Bobcat sort of turns and saunters, like, I'm cool. I'm cool. It's all right. Up towards the compost shed. As it's doing so, it goes around the corner of the compost shed. And then I kind of quickly, using my training of walking in the zendo to minimize my footfall, I kind of quickly Walk ran to the other side of the compost shed.

[25:13]

And just as I went around the corner of the compost shed, there's a bobcat, like three feet away. And it looks up at me like, okay, you fooled me. But we were just playing, you know. And bobcat wasn't bothered. It just did the same thing. It turned around like, okay, dude. It sort of sauntered away the other direction. So I enjoyed my little joke. I hope the bobcat enjoyed it too. So we share. We share space. How wonderful is that? A while ago, I don't know, you know, probably a lot of you know, I enjoy bird watching. I was in the lower garden, and I looked up towards the, I looked up alongside the mountainside, and I saw a peregrine falcon way up there.

[26:26]

And I had this really strong sense, it just hit me all of a sudden, you know. It's her world. We just get to share it with her. for which I'm very, very grateful. Otherwise, what we get is, I remember, it's funny the things that make an impression on you. When I was a kid, reading this underground comic book, and I can't remember what it was about, but I remember the artist had one big panel that was a picture of these two worlds. And on one side was the human-made world, and it was all skyscrapers and freeways and airplanes and men in uniform with guns.

[27:39]

And there's this deep divide, and on the other side was the wild world, the natural world, with trees and animals and actually a deer, strangely enough, kind of looking across like, what the what? And the caption was, it didn't take long for this sorry mess to happen. It's kind of tragic. It's kind of tragic. And that's kind of the way I see it sometimes when I'm not in Tassajara. Is that how we want to live? And also, in our hearts, we feel this divide. We feel this disconnect. Or anyway. I do. I was reading in the New Yorker.

[28:43]

Strangely, it's just this article about modern life and connectivity of Internet and so forth and modernism. And the author quoted this German essayist. writing about modern city life in the early 20th century. His name was Siegfried Krakauer in 1924. He said, what is being offered is a life that belongs to no one and exhausts everyone. Those words just jumped off the page and hit me in the face. A life that belongs to no one and exhausts everyone. Is that how you want to live? Those who notice that inheriting Dharma is twining vines are rare.

[29:48]

Accept the entanglement just as relationship between many things and you are one of the many. How was I going to try to relate this to Sangha? A few years back in the summer, Sometimes in summer we have this class of classes where students can teach a one-off class and this student named Bodhicandra taught a class on the Heart Sutra and he was something of a Sanskrit scholar and he actually read the Heart Sutra in Sanskrit and kind of expounded it in Sanskrit and he said that the etymology in Sanskrit of the word Sangha is that which is nailed in place. Affixed. Bound together. Nailed down. And that's what we take refuge in.

[30:58]

Right? We take refuge in Sangha. Taking refuge in Sangha, accepting the entanglement, accepting your practice is part one of the many, means complicated is okay. Messy is okay. It's okay that it's not easy. That's okay. There's this often quoted line commentary in the Book of Serenity that you'll hear in Zen Center from time to time. Maybe for a lot of you it's not the first time you've heard this.

[32:01]

It's a commentary on Case 98 in the Book of Serenity. Many Zen teachers have mentioned it. Wansong, in his commentary, he quotes Chan Master Bao Ning Yang, who says, this closeness is heart-rending if you search outside. Why does ultimate familiarity seem like enmity? Why does... I mean, it's not necessarily so, but it can be so, that closeness, intimate practice, can feel like... I don't like it. Or, get away. Or, you know, were you put on this planet just to annoy me? I'm not saying it's supposed to feel like that.

[33:04]

I'm just saying it's okay if it does. And if it feels like that and you view it from outside, well, that's heart-rending. Yeah, that's heart-rending. But if you can accept it, that can really be quite okay. Joyfully together, also okay. I think we should work on joyfully together, yes. But also know that difficult is okay. Complicated is okay. Entangled is okay. I think that Zen Center can be kind of a haven for the conflict averse. But it's not so healthy necessarily. I think if there's conflict, if there's misunderstanding, if there's...

[34:14]

troubles, complications, entanglements, we have to be able to talk about it. We have to find a way to skillfully talk about it, which is mostly what this book is about, this Thich Nhat Hanh book. There's that poem by William Blake called A Poisoned Tree. Do you know it? It begins... I was angry with my friend, I told my wrath, my wrath did end. I was angry with my foe, I told it not, my wrath did grow. Is that how you want to live? Not so good. The next line is, And I watered it in fears. I watered it in fears.

[35:20]

So I think it behooves us to find a way to talk to each other, to be with each other, to practice together. This is how we work towards practicing joyfully together. And it begins with accepting. complicated so yeah I've quite enjoyed this book something that I enjoyed a lot that I wanted to share is there's a chapter called the seven methods of resolving conflicts and the seventh the ultimate method is respected senior members of the community are invited to declare a general amnesty. That's it.

[36:31]

We can't figure this out. We're declaring general amnesty. I thought, that's great. That's great. And then I thought, don't we do that every morning? When Sojan Roshi was leading a practice period here in 2005, he did a shosan ceremony and he's sitting there in the chair and a monk comes up and asking him some question about some difficulty, some interpersonal difficulty. And I can't remember what it was about exactly. And I think that Sojin actually interrupted them. He said, wait a minute. Didn't we just this morning, didn't we put our palms together and say, oh, my ancient twisted karma from beginningless greed.

[37:42]

Say, can we chant it together? Can we chant it three times, please? All my ancient twisted karma From beginningless greed, hate, and delusion Born through body, speech, and mind I now fully avow All my ancient twisted karma From beginningless greed, hate and delusion Born through body, speech and mind I now fully avow All my ancient twisted karma From beginningless greed, hate and delusion Born through body, speech and mind

[39:02]

I now flee a vow. That's it. General amnesty. Entanglement equals connection. and Musteria support each other when two people two or more people have difficulty have misunderstanding and can come back circle around the same as we do in our Zazen practice come back come back to this body, come back to present reality, and meet, truly meet, this is what I mean by Tazahara magic and not any other thing.

[40:15]

It's the magic of practice, it's the magic of Sangha practice. Suzuki Roshi again. So Dogen said, mistake over mistakes. This is right. They ivy and vine over ivy and vine. This is how we help, how we act on each other. It is not so simple. We should be prepared for the hard work we will have. We should not. We should be always prepared for. We should have firm conviction to work it out. But the way should, little by little, step by step, If you want to do it with hasty mind, you cannot do anything. So to find out IV over IV is the right way, the right observation.

[41:20]

I'm hereby declaring general amnesty. You all love each other. I love all of you and I bring you Abbot Steve's love. As he said, it's become easier to say, I love you. And as Catherine said in the last talk I gave, why wait? Why wait? We should be prepared for the hard work we will have. And we should have firm conviction to work it out. That's all I got to say to you this morning. Thank you for your attention. If anyone has any questions or comments or some other story they want to share,

[42:30]

or say something about Abbot Steve, please feel free. The kitchen seems to be leaving. Thank you, kitchen. Rachel. so I feel like you can declare amnesty all you want, but you can't do anything for the conflicts, I feel, in my heart, in any situation. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it sounded really good, and it makes a lot of sense, but I don't see the reality of it.

[43:36]

Like Suzuki Roshi said, we have to be prepared for the hard work we will have. I don't always see the reality of it either. And sometimes I have. And so I'm encouraged by that. even small things, especially small things, small ways. Even people has happened in good old Tazahara so deeply at odds in their hearts that they couldn't say one word to each other.

[44:47]

Yet, passing on the path, stop and bow and gusho. That's huge. So, yeah, right. You're right. I can't just declare general amnesty and fix it. No. I avow. I return to my conviction to work it out. It's not easy. But this is the life we've been given.

[45:50]

This is the chance we've been given. While there's life in this body, while I have the chance, I want to keep trying. And I'm a very deluded sentient being. I'm prone to mistakes. Dogen said mistake over mistakes. That's right. coming back we keep coming back over and over painful it may be difficult it may be but what what's the option you know separation yeah you want to hear the rest of this poem I was angry with my friend I told my wrath

[46:54]

My wrath did end. I was angry with my foe. I told it not. My wrath did grow. And I watered it in fears, night and morning with my tears. And I sunned it with smiles and with soft, deceitful wiles. And it grew both day and night till it bore an apple bright. And my foe beheld it shine, and he knew that it was mine. And into my garden stole when the night had veiled the pole. In the morning glad I see my foe outstretched beneath the tree. Oh. No, I don't want to live that way. You know, so I am encouraged by Suzuki Roshi's words. I'm expressing my intention to have a firm conviction to work it out.

[47:56]

As long as there's breath in this body. And that's the most I can do. That's the most I can offer you. Yes, Edie. Thank you.

[49:12]

That's wisdom and compassion. Wisdom and compassion. The two wings of the jumbo jet of the Mahayana. how they inform each other, wisdom, prajna, you see the story. You see how you're holding on to this view. It's empty. And then from that, compassion. And vice versa. Yes, Reverend Thorne. Yes. Like the skyscraper world? Yes. And the natural world?

[50:14]

Yes. Because I think that's all one fruitful entanglement, that's the skyscraper world, or Fukushima for us. This is what it is. So did I misunderstand you then? No. You understood me. That's one view. And I think you're bringing forward another deeper, more beautiful view that helps to undo what feels like this divide, what feels like this terrible divide. She said, Fukushima is in this book. Yeah, it's a disaster. And it's the world we live in. We can't trade it in for some other world. No, thank you. That's a good point.

[51:16]

Yes, Jana. Thank you for your songs. Your songs. I think this is the first time I've ever heard the word entanglement used in a positive context. I think it's Chris and then Francis. Things like that.

[52:36]

And I find that they wear me down more than a big blow up. For 10 years, we keep the always, I don't stop going for shoes. Things like that. This Chan Master Bao Ning Yang did. Ultimate familiarity seems like enmity. Right. I think I like Edie's words. There's the real pure practice of dhanaparamita, of letting go. practicing generosity. How to do that and still have healthy boundaries, I think, is a great study for all of us.

[53:47]

But it can be done. It can be done. Like I was saying with Rachel, very small ways. are often the most significant. Where we do the work in our hearts. Do the work in our hearts. And good luck. And please have the firm conviction to work it out. In the midst of entanglement. Francis. for example, I find that there were two completely different worlds, you know, we thought we were together .

[55:29]

The finds seem like they . So how do I practice, what does it mean to practice and practice a community when a large part of my practice is eyes downcast? Like trying to practice in a way that I take responsibility for my individual Well, Yeah, it's a great question. The way I see it, anyway, one point of view, I guess.

[56:33]

I'm not even sure this is going to directly address your question, but I'll just share that our formal practice together, the container of practice period, of residential practice in the monastery kind of supports a deeper intimacy, a deeper connection, and can help us to get close to that when we're practicing with eyes downcast, when we're practicing with just following the schedule, following the guidelines, Yes, taking care of your own practice, completely leaving the other one profoundly alone. You might hear someone's footsteps on the ngawa and know exactly who that is.

[57:37]

You might have your eyes downcast and someone comes in the back door and you're like, oh yeah, it's so-and-so. Oh, it's my friend. Or, oh, it's whatever. This, for me, it fosters a deeper intimacy, a deeper connection that, in best case scenario, can help us, I feel, can help us to have a better, kind of more mundane connection. Does that make any sense? Yes, Reen. Hearing all these questions, I just want to say that Laili Gandhi really helped by reading the 17 Reflections in the Thich Nhat Hanh book.

[58:39]

They really addressed this, how the Sangha finally's concept is really healthy enough, and ways to do it at Earth. I think she says it well, and that's per evidence of Christina's recommendation. I read them and I just did it very often. Thank you. So there's an unsolicited endorsement. Thank you. Yes, Brooks? Put my hand up. I don't know if I moved it there myself, or whether it was the Sangha that moved it there. I see the Sangha. Going for separation or not wanting to address conflict or violence on that.

[59:42]

Every time you talk about our relationship with all beings, I see that also talking about our relationship with design. Yeah. Thank you. All kinds of agree. Yes, come on. I also really appreciate hearing the OK-ness of being entangled. The cutting entanglement of entanglement really brings to mind the work I've been doing lately with meeting the Mysterio blind friends that Catherine has led me to play with. You know, I'm faced with this giant tangle and I'm told to trim it back and to keep it from eating the other things around, like the roof where it's too adjacent to it. And it was kind of daunting to figure out how to start.

[60:46]

Probably my intention in knitting is to help trim it back so that it can flower more. And then I find myself, you know, I'm just starting to cut stuff and all of a sudden I'm like carrying and pulling and like you're not supposed to be over here, and you've got to come out. And at some point in the process, I looked down, and I saw this giant cuticle, right where I stepped on it. Big, juicy fella. That big? Just like a fisherman. It was enough where I picked it up, it felt very muscly, and I almost dropped it. But I realized, oh my God, you live in here. And I have to be carrying up this thing. sort of deciding, like, you don't belong here, you don't belong here, and what else could have damaged, and then sort of, like, have an ALG, I'm like, oh my god, I do it, and I'm like, I have all these entanglements inside of me, I have all my ancient twisted karma, and I'm always being like, well, you shouldn't be doing that, like, oh, you did that thing that, like, your dad does, and blah blah blah, and just trying to yank it out, it's just like, you don't belong here, like, cut, yank, well, and after meeting that caterpillar, we sort of, like, that sex of the

[61:59]

Armistice, it's just like, okay, like, each time, like, and I still kept pulling every now and then because they're very entangled. But it was such a nice reminder to be like, do you really need to pull so high? Is this really the way to meet this system here? Is this the way to meet myself? And just really feeling that, like, my entanglement is what's cutting through as a entanglement, like, bringing it to that situation. I really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you. There you have it. That's what Dogen meant. Cutting twining vines with twining vines. Yes, Cecilia. Uh-huh.

[63:05]

Hear no evil. See no evil. Speak no evil. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. She was a very religious person, and so, she was a strong person. But then, when there was conflict and people came to tell her that she was left out, not a mature fit, but she was, people very respect her a lot, and so we came to her, not speak for me, and went, . I mean, it's not worth it, you know. So that's like . Remember, now, a very basic exercise. Somebody, so you talk, you say, even here, you keep going.

[64:15]

It needs to do that, right? That's all. Thank you. Yeah, to you. Well, you know, I think practicing in the midst of entanglement, accepting your situation, can you accept that that can be okay too? This is a problem with Zen Center being a haven for the conflict averse.

[65:25]

You have to be able to accept, what did the man say? Excuse me. If you take Vine and Ivy in a bad sense, it's the entanglement of your life, but if you understand it, it will encourage your creativity. It will encourage your freedom. So, you know, if you understand that, you know, he's, he's, he's, he's a, um, accept the entanglement as relationship between many things. Um, you have innumerable ways to go. You have more options. You have more freedom right there. Except that it's going to be okay to say no sometimes.

[66:29]

The difficulty can't be that part of you is not okay with saying no. Is there some difficulty saying no? Then, okay... You have to accept that there's this difficulty here, there's this stumbling block. And then, you know, okay, that's part of the whole situation. And gently, like Koman working on the Wisteria, you know, gently, gently with kindness, you find your no. It's in there. It's in there. It's part of everything. It's part of the innumerable ways you have to go has to include being able to say no. Does it always just keep arising every time?

[68:09]

It might, but then again, it might not. Please be open to the possibilities. Be open to the possibility that it might not arise all the time. But yes, I agree with you. The definition of courage I totally understand that. If I give and I'm not comfortable with it, there's going to be regret that arises and a lot of fun is filled up. I guess this doesn't just apply to me, it applies to everybody.

[69:12]

Because I see people doing things that they don't really want to do. In ignorance, So I think it behooves us, all of us, to look carefully. And like Thich Nhat Hanh says, deeply touch your own suffering. Thich Nhat Hanh said that like a million times, I think. You have to get in touch with that. You have to get in touch with that fear. So when you said sit with it or just be present with it I'm like, yeah, that's my definition of courage. It doesn't mean you don't have fear or you get rid of fear, make fear go away, which, you know, good luck.

[70:14]

Courage means I acknowledge fear is there. And how do I practice with that right now? Thank you. Okay, one more question, Jeremy. Or comment, or, yeah. Mud, grows in the mud, the messy, messy, sticky mud, stinky. And nourishing.

[71:15]

Yeah. Thank you. Okay. I think that probably ought to be good enough. The Avis agrees. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[71:54]

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