We will now begin today's Dharma Talk offered by Green Gulch Head of Practice, Chiryu Rechman Beiler. Please chant the opening verse along with me. An unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect Dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million kappas, having it to see and listen to To remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. Before we begin today, I just wanted to remind everyone that we do have closed captioning. If you click on the small CC icon at the bottom right of the Zoom screen, you can click Enable Captions. If you find them distracting, you can also click on that icon to disable them.

[14:11]

Thank you. Thank you, Kogetsu, and good morning, everyone. Thank you for being here, taking time out of your day to join us here and turn the Dharma together, reflect on our practice. So many of you know that I've been continuing to read Suzuki Roshi's lectures. I've been kind of diving into Suzuki Roshi's teaching in part because I'm trying little by little to complete this project that my late teacher, Sojin Mel Weitzman, invited me into a couple of years back of editing some of the talks that weren't quite edited yet and making a new collection out of them.

[15:20]

So it's bittersweet to be continuing that work without Mel. And I'm appreciating the intimacy with Suzuki Roshi's teachings and also with the feeling of Mel's presence in that with me. Something that stands out as I look over Suzuki Roshi's teaching, and as I think about Mel and bring his presence in, is just this great simplicity and straightforwardness that shine through the practice, shine through the teachings. It's totally simple and straightforward teachings. So this really simple and straightforward way is feeling just right to me, just what I need, just how I want to practice. So if I had to or wanted to name or put some words on what this simple and straightforward feeling or teaching that I feel expressed in Suzuki Roshi and in Mel, in his teachings and in his life,

[16:41]

It would be how about calling it a warm heart and empty mind. What if it were that simple? What if the practice and the teachings were that simple? Just a warm heart and an empty mind. So Those of you who come often know that this year I've been talking quite a bit about this warm heart, warm heart in our practice. I'm really coming to see that it's an essential element of our zazen posture. So we sit upright, our ears over our shoulders, our nose in line with our navel, and then our heart warm and open. So Suzuki Roshi says, when you take care of your posture and your breathing, there is a warm feeling in it.

[17:51]

When you have a warm feeling in your practice, that is a good example of the great mercy of Buddha. So we put emphasis on warm heart, warm zazen. I love this line. May it be so. So we put emphasis on warm heart, warm zazen. The warm feeling we have in our practice is, in other words, enlightenment or Buddha's mercy, Buddha's mind. The warm feeling we have in our practice is, in other words, enlightenment. So I want to continue as long as I can, deepening. my understanding of this wisdom and compassion in this warm heart, zazen and life. The practice of it, not necessarily the attainment of it on any given day.

[19:02]

So today, though, I wanted to talk about this other side that I'm seeing in Suzuki Roshi's teachings. This teaching or practice of empty mind. A warm heart and an empty mind. How about this empty mind? So just not thinking. Not thinking. Or no concepts. Or quiet mind. Resting mind. Still mind. Or maybe no mind. Empty mind. It's a funny concept. Empty mind. I remember just before I got interested in Zen, I'd heard rumors that Zen was very cold.

[20:09]

and very aloof and all about something called no mind or empty mind. And there was a spiritual teacher I was reading at the time who wrote just scathingly about this idea. Why would you want no mind? What about the fullness of mind? What about the fullness of life? The depths of our imagination and the height of our spiritual ideas. Why would you cut that off with some no mind? And so that was my first encounter with this teaching of no mind. Yeah, what's with that? That sounds pointless. So it might sound, if we hear empty mind or no mind, it might sound like we'd be missing out on something or cutting off some important part of ourselves. Then eventually I started to practice with my body this empty mind teaching.

[21:21]

And the thing about empty mind when we, in actual embodied practice, is that it's not really empty. You know, it's empty of itself. But this so-called empty mind is just an open mind, flexible mind. A mind that... you know, by releasing itself, allows everything else, allows the whole world in. This empty mind is a mind that can finally, truly welcome the whole world and all of life. You can rejoice in things that aren't it. So there's room. There's room in empty mind. And then when the world comes in, You know, if we need to see it this way, the world coming in to fill the space of this empty mind with all of its light and color and shape and sound. There's an intimacy with that.

[22:24]

We feel connected with that. We are not separate from that. And we can move and act with it. So I've come to really trust and appreciate in this practice of empty mind that there is or can be real wisdom there. The world coming in is not separate. It's not anywhere else. It's not out there. A real wisdom in this practice of empty mind. And also real compassion. This world that flows in to the empty mind. We connect with. We can care for. We can respond with and to. So I think this maybe cold sounding practice of empty mind really is worthy of our consideration and perhaps practice. It's a teaching to study and celebrate.

[23:27]

So maybe you understand this. Maybe you also agree that have the thought that empty mind sounds like a good idea. You know, we might intellectually understand this or even fill our minds with thoughts as I was doing, preparing this talk, filling my mind with thoughts of how wonderful it is to have an empty mind. So we can be excited about that practice. We can think good things about that practice. But to really trust it in our body and being, to really trust letting the mind settle down, quiet down, empty out, can be quite difficult. So I feel that this simple practice is something to try out little by little, just in little moments, as we gradually develop our faith in it. So rather than just think that empty mind would be a good idea, we try allowing our thoughts to settle.

[24:39]

And we practice this and see how it goes. And if it goes well, or if it goes poorly, we register, fully register with our whole being that result. By doing this over and over again, just in these little moments, our faith grows. I have really found this, my faith growing in this empty mind. by trying it in little ways now and again. So one of the reasons it may not be easy to take up the practice of emptying the mind is, you know, the first hurdle, the first objection comes from the mind, you know, which you're threatening to empty. So the mind, the thinking mind might not be up for really allowing or supporting this kind of effort. maybe part of why we talk about it.

[25:47]

We try to warm our mind up to this idea of letting go of itself, ease it in. So it's understandable that our mind wants to stay full and is very suspicious of silence, very suspicious of being emptied. So this full mind is thinking mind, busy mind, controlling mind. has thought that it was running things, running the show for a very long time. So it's hesitant, understandably, to give that up. What will happen? What will happen if I empty my mind? You might have that thought. It sounds good, but what will happen? What will happen? Or maybe even worse, you know, what if something happens and my mind is empty? That could be really bad.

[26:50]

You know, it might be one thing to empty my mind for a moment in Zazen, but what if something's happening and I need my mind, but it's empty? That could be really bad. I had the image, you know, this dream that is often reported of, for example, arriving at school, and noticing that you're not wearing pants. That's like the feeling of something I needed, something I really needed to have with me. My pants, you know, my mind won't be there when I need it. I didn't bring anything in my mind and maybe I was supposed to have. So what if I'm supposed to do something or say something, but my mind is empty? So we have this kind of fear. Maybe you are familiar with this kind of fear or anxiety. And to the extent that we've been living centered in our minds, centered in our thinking, and emptying the mind might seem not only impossible, but very risky.

[28:07]

What else could we rely on? What else could we rely on? How could that work? That this thing that's been doing all of it for us could just be let go of. So we can acknowledge what we're up against in taking up the practice of emptying the mind and just keep trying when we can, how we can. Like right now. to test out this practice, to let the mind rest. So as I begin here, and I want to say more about this practice of emptying the mind, but I want to make sure that it's clear and ask you to please understand that none of what I've said or what I will say

[29:24]

is to say that our minds, you know, should not be full or that they're supposed to be empty or that, you know, you're doing something wrong if there's thinking. The point of this practice is not to have us thinking more worried thoughts about how we're thinking and we're not supposed to be thinking and we're supposed to be emptying our mind and I can't open my mind. So the point of this practice is not to think more about how we're thinking is. point of this practice is to just grow this capacity to allow the spaces between and around and beneath the thoughts. It's just to grow this tolerance or appreciation or capacity for this kind of emptiness of mind when the thought subsides. Even if it's just for a moment. This is not another thing to worry about or to think that we're doing wrong.

[30:28]

It's also not to say that thinking is bad or thinking is wrong or thinking is unhelpful. It's not a simplistic teaching in that way. I think to say just never think, you know, thinking is bad, not thinking is good. That sounds to me simplistic in the sense that it's a kind of absolute. This isn't a simplistic teaching. It's just a simple practice. A simple practice that offers great nourishment. Great nourishment. And deep rest. And healing. And wisdom and compassion. So it takes some willingness or some courage to step into this emptying the mind. And the teaching. And our teachers. offer that it's totally worthwhile to do so. That's all. So as I talk about these practices of emptying the mind more, I want to point out maybe two ways of thinking about or seeing this empty mind.

[31:48]

The first is maybe the top layer of this practice. And this is the practice of letting go of thoughts. So you maybe have a thought now. This practice is to just let that thought fall away. It will fall away or change. And we let it. It's a practice of returning our attention that has been diverted by the thought, returning our attention to the breath and to the body. To not keep the thought, just don't keep it. This, I forget where this teaching is, you know, don't serve it tea, Suzuki Roshi, or maybe it's a more common teaching.

[32:52]

You know, the thought can come, but don't, you know, don't pull... Pull out the chair for it. Don't serve it to eat. Just open the front door and open the back door and just let it walk through. Don't go out onto the porch and, you know, holler for any additional guests. So a thought comes and once it's done, you just let it fall away. And then for a moment, maybe a wonderful moment, maybe a terrifying moment, maybe a moment we try to paper over as quickly as we can. For a moment, you know, the mind is empty. The mind is at rest. Our practice is to feel into that emptiness. See if we can extend our tolerance for and appreciation of that silence. One of the things we may notice right away, I notice is this casting around for a next thought. So, like, as soon as there's some quiet, there's this casting around, I think pushed by some anxiety about the silence.

[34:02]

Like, there's something I need. Am I wearing my pants? There's something I needed. Something's missing. And this impulse, just this embodied impulse of, like, what should I think about next? What should I think about next? Starts itself back into motion. So maybe you might feel that impulse, notice that impulse, this kind of casting around for something to think about. What should we think about? Or maybe, you know, maybe there's just such a barrage of thoughts sometimes that we don't notice that casting around. We don't notice that we're going after them. And maybe just find a sliver, you know, here and there of quiet in between. So either way, you know, the practice is the same. When we notice our thinking, we accept its appearance and we just try not to move.

[35:08]

We just let it get swallowed back up, you know, into wherever it came out of, in its body and breath, its stillness. the light and the sound. And so our practice, our effort is just to stay for a little longer in that space between. So this is maybe the first way of looking at emptying the mind. It's maybe what Dogen would call not thinking. It's kind of the top layer. course aspect. And then the second aspect is maybe deeper or more subtle. That's this practice of emptying the mind in the sense of experiencing things, things as it is, as Suzuki Roshi said, things as it is, which is like all of it at once, you know, things as it is.

[36:17]

So this practice of experiencing things as it is without concepts or names or comparisons or calculations, evaluations or judgment. So this aspect is more subtle. This is about emptying our mind, our deep mind. Or emptying our experience, Suzuki Roshi sometimes says, emptying our mind or experience of the deeper, more basic thoughts and concepts that we have. The ones that are barely conscious or maybe even totally unconscious. So it's about pointing to knowing and somehow experiencing in our body and our deep mind and our warm heart. Experiencing that reality of things as it is, is just beyond that conceptualization and naming and measuring, describing.

[37:31]

And that that reality of things as it is can somehow be touched without, at least without quite so much of the distortion that are naming and judging and measuring. Or can we see something without calling it something? Or at least can we see that calling it something is different from what it is? Maybe say more about that. First, I wanted to share a little bit from Suzuki Roshi about what I'm calling this first aspect or this practice of, no, just don't think about stuff. Just have a mind empty of thoughts.

[38:33]

Practice that. Try that out. So I want to share from a piece from Suzuki Roshi that's become my new favorite. And I'm sorry to those of you who hear this over and over. I find it so moving and profound. Hopefully it will be the first chapter of this forthcoming collection. I'll try not to dwell on it too much, but I still appreciate it. So Suzuki Roshi says, sharing the feeling right here, right now, is the fundamental or basic thing for Zen practice. Zen is, in a word, to share our feeling with people, with trees and with mountains, wherever we are. That is Zen practice. And so I've spoken many times now about this sharing the feeling.

[39:39]

And today, maybe I want to say less about that aspect and more about this practice that he's really talking about in this piece, this practice of an empty mind. that he says is really at the heart of this sharing. So Zen practice is to share the feeling right here, right now with people and trees and mountains. But usually our mind is filled with something like ice cream or bananas or how much the soap costs in one store. compared to how much it will cost in another, or looking at the newspaper and seeing an ad where there is a sale. So it is almost impossible to share the actual feeling we have, where we are right now. That is how our life is going on and on, endlessly filled with rubbish. It is not rubbish at that time.

[40:41]

At that time, it is important for you, but it is not necessary to hold on to it. It is the same with our everyday life. Because we have so much useless rubbish in our mind, it is hard to share our feeling with people, with things, with trees, or with mountains. Even though we are right in the middle of the woods, it is still hard to appreciate the feeling of the woods. When we can really appreciate the feeling of the woods, that is zazen. So to me, this this speaks to this top layer of practicing emptying our minds. Our minds are just full of rubbish. And so we can't really let the world in. There's no room, you know, there's no room for the feeling of the woods because there's like soap and ice cream and sales. And so we can't really see or fully experience or participate in, give ourself to what's happening around us.

[41:47]

But this is like, The story of my life, right? So we're talking to one person while thinking about someone else. And then we talk to someone else while thinking about the last person. We think about our vacation during our work. And then we go on vacation and we think about work. So there's no problem with any of these thoughts. It's fine to think about all those things. We need to think about work and vacations and maybe even... So I love how he puts it. The thoughts are not rubbish when you're using them. They're not rubbish at the time. But before and after it's time, they are rubbish. They're not serving anything. They're just getting in the way. Endlessly filled with rubbish. Because we have so much useless rubbish in our mind, it is hard to share our feeling with people, with things, with trees or with mountains.

[42:53]

So he uses these examples, you know, of ice cream and bananas, soap and sails. But his point is also much, much deeper and broader about what our mind might be filled with. So he says... Before attaining enlightenment, Buddha practiced under many teachers, studying many things and becoming occupied with various philosophies or religions. When he realized he was caught by this, he lost interest in such things. He got tired of that kind of effort, so he gave up everything. So as Suzuki Roshi tells this familiar story, Buddha first tried enlightenment. filling up his mind. You know, the Buddha knew he needed to figure something out. So the first approach was fill up his mind with the right stuff, you know. But it didn't satisfy him. So then he decided to take the other approach and practiced emptying his mind instead, giving things up instead of getting new things.

[44:05]

So Suzuki Roshi says, continuing his story, Finally, he sat under the Bodhi tree where he attained enlightenment. We say he attained enlightenment, but it may be better to say he completely forgot everything. He had nothing in his mind at that moment. He had nothing in his mind at that moment. And when he saw the morning star rising up from the east, that was the first thing he saw coming out of his empty mind. That is why he had such joy at the sight of the morning star. So to see something, or later Suzuki Roshi also says, you know, to say something. So to see something or to say something from this empty mind is the source of the turning of the wheel, is the source of the Buddhadharma, is seeing or speaking.

[45:11]

from empty mind. This completely empty mind then is the ground of the arising of all of the true teachings and practices and of this awakening. So can we see something with an empty mind? Can we clear the rubbish? even for a moment. So later on, Suzuki Roshi says, we can sit in Zazen posture with empty mind. But there is some technique or some explanation needed in order to do this. You might be feeling this. They're like, okay, empty mind sounds great. But how do I do it? What do I do? It's not emptying. There is some technique or some explanation needed in order to do this.

[46:18]

The purpose of our practice is to open up our mind. You must open it like you open a tin can. You must cut hard and open the tin so that you can eat what's in it. You must open it like you open a tin can. There's a strong effort. So Suzuki Roshi, you know, often is so gentle. And And in our teachings on Zazen also, we tend to be gentle, maybe too gentle sometimes. There's something strong, Suzuki Roshi is saying, and we might feel ourself, something strong is required to cut through these layers of rubbish, you know, especially if a lot is piled up. Like something, some technique or explanation. So the image you may know, many of you do know, the main altar image in a Zen meditation hall is Manjushri, embodiment of wisdom, who holds traditionally, most traditionally is depicted with a sword, this sword that cuts through delusion.

[47:31]

So you must cut hard and open the tin so that you can eat what's in it, which is like the whole world. So Suzuki Roshi is maybe too gentle to bring up the sword, but the tin can, you know, that feeling of just crunch, you know, crunch and then turn. So we need to break in at some point. We need to break in or disrupt this torrent of habitual thinking and living. So that's one part, but just that disrupting, just that cutting is not at all the whole story. So he says, The purpose of our practice is to open up our mind. You must open it like you open a tin can. You must cut hard and open the tin so that you can eat what's in it. But just to open is not enough. I opened it. The spirit of repetition is also necessary, he says.

[48:34]

If you do not have this kind of spirit or if your everyday life is not based on this kind of spirit, To repeat it forever, you cannot cope with the problems you will have day after day. You know, opening the can yesterday does not feed you today. Day after day, these problems, you know, we won't be able to cope with them if we don't not just know how to open the can, but have this feeling of like again and again, a million, billion, trillion times, spirit of repetition. It says, as long as you live, you must eat something. After you eat, you may have a big rubbish pile of cans and papers. So continuously we should work on it. We should clear our table every day. So this is another maybe the image of the continuity of this practice. You don't just empty the mind. You don't empty the mind. You are emptying the mind.

[49:36]

It's this continuous process. So clearing the table again and again. And then allowing it to be clear for a little while. So this is clearing the thoughts and then allowing the mind to be empty before it refills. So each thing on that table had a purpose. There's no criticism, no judgment. It's no problem that there's cans and papers all over. It's not rubbish while you're using it. It's just that once it's used, it's helpful to clear it. So we clear the table again and again. It's like the old poem says, you know, the old and a much maligned but right on poem, you know. Moment after moment, wiping this great mirror of our mind. keeping the dust, clearing the dust over and over all day long, wiping this mirror so the dust can't stick.

[50:46]

This is our actual everyday practice. So clear the table and see if we can bear or even appreciate that empty table. all that empty space. So this is the first aspect of emptying the mind. And before concluding, I wanted to share some from Suzuki Roshi on this other aspect of emptying, which is this emptying of the deeper thoughts and categories and names and judgments. This is the emptying the mind That's the effort, not just to clear away the conscious thoughts, but to try to experience reality more directly, in a way not so distorted by those, you know, barely conscious or unconscious concepts.

[51:51]

So he says, besides the world, which we can discuss in another talk of his, Besides the world which we can describe, there is another kind of world. All descriptions of reality are limited expressions of the world of emptiness. Yet we attach to the descriptions and think they are reality. That is a mistake because what is described is not the actual reality. And when you think it is reality, your own idea is involved. That is an idea of self. So here the emptying the mind is seeing that the descriptions that we're putting into reality are not touching it, are really just our own idea. And every time we do that, you know, describe and live in our description, we're putting ourself at the center. So our abbess Phu sometimes tells this very simple story of a teacher and a student and a cat.

[53:01]

The monk... pointed at a cat in the corner and said, Master, I call it a cat. What do you call it? The master said, you call it a cat. I call it a cat. What do you call it? You call it a cat. So we don't usually experience, you know, that's a cat. with clarity that that's a thought or a concept. We just usually, you know, that's not a description. That's just, it just is a cat. It's not me thinking it's a cat. It just is a cat. So this story, this just simple little exchange is about two people trying together to point out that it is a cat is a long way off from reality itself. Reality doesn't have any cats in it. Cats are just something that we call it.

[54:04]

So Suzuki Roshi says, to empty water from a cup does not mean to drink it up. To empty means to have direct, pure experience without relying on the form or color of being. So our experience is empty of our preconceived ideas, our idea of being. our idea of being, our idea of big or small, round or square. Round or square, big or small, don't belong in reality, but are simply ideas. That is to empty water. We have no idea of water, even though we see it. reminded me long ago of being on a meditation retreat and on a break outside a break from meditation i was outside and i saw some birds and i i saw my i guess i had slowed down enough it was quiet enough but i saw these birds and then i saw this thought three three you know i don't think i was quite quiet enough to see the thought birds but i was quiet enough

[55:33]

To see how three, you know, was not happening before that thought. Three kind of came a little late to the party. There's something happening and, you know, there's birds. We'll give it that. But there's not three of something. Three comes late, you know. Three wasn't involved until I made it be involved. So I don't know, you know, whether we can really get quiet enough to see... All of these thoughts or concepts to see, you know, birds or maybe to see shapes as a concept. Or, you know, whether and how we can really see around or somehow see entirely without these descriptions. Some of these concepts may be too deep in our consciousness to see around or really to uproot. Or maybe we can. Maybe we can see. really absolutely directly without any concepts at all.

[56:35]

There's good arguments, you know, to be made on either side of that. I'm not really so interested in getting to the bottom of it, you know. Can you really experience with absolutely no concept or not? The point for me is everyday practice of can I look a little bit beyond? Can I notice, you know, oh, I'm calling that a cat. Can I just step a little bit back from that's a cat? To just that awareness, oh, I'm calling that a cat. Just more and more aware that what I'm operating on is a label, the world of description. And that there's another world flowing, you know, this world of emptiness, as Suzuki Roshi says, that's inviting. That's inviting us to connect, to contact it. So he says, when we analyze our experience... We have ideas of time or space, big or small, heavy or light. A scale of some kind is necessary, and with various scales in our mind, we experience things.

[57:39]

Still, the thing itself has no scale. That is something we add to reality. Because we always use a scale and depend on it so much, we think the scale really exists, but it doesn't exist. If it did, it would exist with things. Using a scale, you can analyze one reality into entities, big and small. But as soon as we conceptualize something, it is already dead experience. And so these scales, you know, measuring, calculating, weighing, evaluating. This mode of thinking that, for example, in Fukanza Zengi, many of the meditation instructions is named specifically, this gauging, the gauging of thoughts and views, this calculating, comparing, judging, these scales.

[58:45]

Maybe they'll be present, you know, but knowing that these are not in reality itself, there's nothing as big or small as Nothing is round or square. So even if we can't see without these, you know, big, it's small. Even if we can't see without big and small, see without round and square, we can be fully aware that this is our world of description, used by our minds for convenience and not in reality itself. So when Suzuki Roshi is talking about the Buddha seeing the morning star, this is the kind of emptying really that he's referring to. You know, when the Buddha saw the morning star having forgotten everything, you know, not just about ice cream, but about stars, you know, and Buddhas. He didn't see a star and he definitely didn't see a big star or a small star or round star or square star, bright star or dim star.

[59:51]

He did not see a good or a bad star. And he didn't see it for a short time or a medium time or a long time. So thinking about this Buddha and this star that's neither big or small, I was remembering long ago, so many things now are long ago, anything. So long ago, I was on horseback riding in the mountains. with a friend in the Inyo Mountains, maybe some of you know, near the California-Nevada border, a beautiful, stark landscape. And we're riding along, and the moon was out. It was afternoon, but the moon was visible. And we could see that the moon was pretty close to full and was big and pale in the sky. And so it felt special to me. And I pointed out the moon to my friend. Look at the moon. It's so beautiful. And my friend, Fritz, my friend paused and he looked at it with me.

[61:01]

And then he said something like, you know, to be honest, it's not that great. To be honest, it's not that great. And I really knew what he meant. You know, it made me look again. And I said, yeah, it's not so great. I mean, it's not a great moon. It wasn't that special. It was kind of dim and pale. And, you know, you showed me in a way that I was trying to make something special here. It's supposed to be spectacular, so isn't it spectacular? But at the same time, you know, to be honest, it's not that great. It's just a hilarious thing to say about the moon. To be honest, you know, the moon, the moon's not that great. It just stuck with me. And so what's so ridiculous, you know, what's so obvious and ridiculous about that moment is that the moon is really not waiting.

[62:04]

The moon is really not waiting to hear what we think of it, you know, whether it's daylight or nighttime, you know, if it's bright or dim, the moon is just so profoundly, completely beyond our evaluation, you know, to say, I like the moon. I don't like the moon. The moon is great. The moon's not that great. You know, it's absurd to weigh in with our opinion about the moon. But then, you know, when does it stop becoming absurd as I back off of, okay, maybe you agree. It's absurd to like weigh in on like for or against the moon. But, you know, backing off of that, well, what? What is it ever that's really so different than that? All the time we're weighing in, you know, with what we think about moons and stars, about things as it is. That sunset's not so special.

[63:07]

That person is not so interesting. That flower is unimpressive. None of these things are calling for any kind of evaluation or measuring or comparing or assessment. Their reality is so far beyond any of that. So also, of course, it's ridiculous to say that sunset is so special. The person is so interesting. The flower is so beautiful. And this reminds me of another story that Daigon Luke used to tell a lot. Familiar is an image of the elder and younger practitioner, again, on a mountain. And the younger practitioner. practitioner, having just, you know, opened the tin can of his heart and mind and just absorbing the whole world, just filling this, you know, the rubbish finally clear, the whole world just filling in its vibrancy in life. And he just carried on as they hiked, you know, carried on exclaiming about the beauty.

[64:12]

It's so spectacular. It's just so wonderful. And then the elder saying something like, Well, yeah, of course it is. But what a pity to say so. What a pity to say so. So the elder in the story is saying, you know, please don't put this beautiful scene into good and bad. Good and bad, wonderful and terrible. Either way, it's not really adding anything to the brightness of this moment. So I think Suzuki Roshi is saying the same thing. The thing itself has no scale. That is something we add to reality. When we analyze our experience, we have ideas of time or space, big or small, heavy or light.

[65:15]

That is something we add to reality. As soon as we conceptualize something in that way, it is already dead experience. So the very last thing I wanna say, just if you feel moved to either now or later, A practice emptying the mind in both of these senses. To remember, to know, or to trust, to have faith that that is not the functioning of our life. Our ordinary functioning and also our great bodhisattva functioning will continue to flow. Even without all our concepts, even without all of our ideas, our life will continue to flow. My ordination teacher Lee Taberos would say that sometimes.

[66:19]

Action flows from somewhere deeper than thought. So this emptying the mind is not like a stuckness. It's not a flatness. It is activity. It is the flowing of our life. The way Suzuki Roshi puts this is to say, if we empty things, letting them be as it is, then things will work. Originally, things are related. And things are one. And as one being, it will extend itself. To let it extend itself, we empty things. When we have this kind of attitude, then without any idea of religion, we have religion. So we do this practice of allowing, you know, emptying things as it is, to allow these things as it is, to extend things. themselves in their harmonious basic relatedness. And so this letting be is a religious practice, essentially.

[67:24]

It has to be a religious practice because it's a deep entrusting. There's surrender, surrender into this functioning that is deeper and more trustworthy than our superficial ideas. So this emptying won't hinder our helpfulness or our functioning. The teaching is that it will only support it. And that too is something we can test out in practice. Try it for a day, you know. Do a day of thinking and a day of no thinking and compare on the third day. Just see how it goes. See if it's trustworthy. So I'm sorry for... offering so many concepts today. I mostly just wanted to say that I'm practicing this and extend the invitation, the reminder of this part of our teaching, which is just to let the mind be quiet and deeply at rest between thoughts.

[68:32]

And to notice the names and scales descriptions that I'm filtering my reality through, and seeing if those also can soften or fall away. What would it be to see now, you know, without big or small? I'm practicing noticing that my mind wants to fill itself with something. And I'm noticing that I want to evaluate and weigh and measure, assess what's my assessment. So noticing these impulses, trying to make space around them, letting them go, and enjoying that silence, deep rest, nourishment, and growing in this way, growing our faith.

[69:43]

that this is a good way to live. So homage to Suzuki Roshi and to our many great teachers, those still with us and those departed. May our life reveal their compassion. And may any merit of our being together this morning extend for the benefit and liberation of suffering beings. Thank you again for being on Zoom here at Green Gulch. May our intention equally extend to every being and place. With the true merit of Buddha's way, beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible.

[70:49]

I want to thank everyone for joining us today. If you feel supported by the Dharma offerings of our temples, Please consider supporting San Francisco Zen Center with a donation at this time. Any size is greatly appreciated, and a link will show in the chat window with different ways to donate. We will also be taking a five-minute break before returning for Q&A. If anybody needs to sign off now and would like to say goodbye, you may do so now. And we will return back at about 11.18 or so, 11.19. Thank you, Jiryu.

[71:55]

Thank you, Jiryu. It's wonderful. Thank you for your insight. Thank you. Thank you very much, Jiryu. Thank you, Jiryu. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Not adding frost to snow. Thank you for your talk. Thank you. Thank you very much. Welcome back, everyone.

[78:35]

We'll begin Q&A. If you would like to ask a question, you may do so by raising your virtual blue hand, which is under the reactions button at the bottom of your Zoom toolbar window. There's a raise hand button there. You may also ask me a question in the chat, and I can pose it for you as well. If you happen to be on an older version of Zoom, The raise hand button is under the participants window. And I'll also check the video feeds for people with their hands raised. We have an offering from Richard. Good to see you, Jiru. Likewise.

[79:36]

Thank you. Yeah, I'll take a crack at this. I wonder whose thoughts are they? Because if they were my thoughts that I'm thinking that I should be able to stop. When I try to stop, stopping doesn't happen. It seems that these thoughts are not really mine. They just arise and disappear into the nature of mind itself, which I think is what we're calling empty minds. And that empty mind is not really nothing or empty. It's actually the nature of mind from which thoughts arise and disappear. And that somehow these thoughts arising and disappear is just karma or habit. And by somehow using what I think of as me to ignore what I seem to be thinking, then the emptiness of mind or natural state of the mind has a chance to...

[80:58]

It doesn't really make a lot of sense, but then again, it does. So maybe just presenting that to you, you can help me to be free of confusion and delusion and to rest peacefully in the normal state of the mind. Thank you. Sounds like you are resting peacefully in between and in that who. Who's are they? I appreciate that very much. And maybe it's not so much stopping. You know, I definitely noticed that stopping is kind of tense. And just create, it's kind of like follow the breath a little bit. Stop the thoughts is a little bit like follow the breath. It's like, uh-oh. Now suddenly my breath is more, you know, just breathe naturally. You know, it's like, ah, I don't know, anyway. Or, you know, stop thinking. And then it's like, okay, so I feel this impulse to think, but I'm supposed to stop thinking.

[82:02]

It's like, no, the point is relax, relax, relax the grasping. So that's where you mentioned the karma of the thinking. There's something about maybe it's just bringing some light to that, some kind of light of awareness on that grasping at the next one. And then when that's seen, it can kind of fold into the silence. So it's not that stopping exactly. It's like, noticing the, noticing smaller blossoms of that, of that kind of grasping and letting it subside. Yeah. I, you know, in a way, I think you're also pointing to the absolute aspect of this whole thing is a description. And so whose thoughts are they? What is going on here? You know? And in that, I said, our practice is wiping this mirror clean. And of course, in that poem, the, you know, the punchline or the deeper answer is like, no mirror, you know, no Buddha, no mind, nothing to clean, you know, who would clean and what would there be to clean from what?

[83:20]

So that's maybe the understanding that then as diluted selves, we try to bring as we do this effortful kind of karmic practice and that hopefully subsides, you know, Suzuki Roshi says, continue this effort until the effort falls away. So anyway, thank you. Thank you, Richard, for your offering. Thank you. And see you there in between. Any, I think I'll get suicide questions, but also any comments or anything to share is welcome. And also it's okay to say goodbye for the day. Pamela has her hand up.

[84:22]

Hi, thank you for your talk. I guess I have a question, which is for me, In the example of grasping from the essay, the thoughts that were brought up were like ice cream and what to buy and kind of like these really trivial life issues. And personally, I'm struggling with raising a child with a serious medical condition and some kind of heartbreaking issues. and challenging decisions that I have to make. And so I guess my question would be, you know, if you're not really dealing with ice cream and shopping and you're dealing with like real, real life stuff, that's hard. Like, like how does one apply that or use that, you know, in a, in a more useful way during like a real crisis, that's not ice cream.

[85:27]

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, he does also talk about the, you know, the religious kind of thoughts. So these deeper thoughts too. But I hear what you're saying and appreciate it. To me, what comes up is like all the more reason, you know, like all the more reason to feel into some space in between. All the more reason to take refuge in that. in that space in between. And so it's not a cutting off of something. It's not like, don't think about things that need to be thought about. You know, sitting with, in stillness and silence, sitting with this deep, you know, this deep problem and this deep decision,

[86:30]

I think that even ups the stakes of quieting the thinking and trying to come down into this deeper part. I sometimes feel like such a deep problem. You can't give that deep problem to this shallow trustee, you know? This deep problem you have to give to this deep trustee, you know? So the one who's trying to think it through, you know, this deep trustee, say, this intuitive embodied wisdom that, that might well use, you know, and, and need and be participating in thinking and information and some kind of decision, but that's not the level that it's being met at, you know? So I think thinking that we're going to think our way into the solution or think our way through the, the big problem is like, well, especially with that one, there's no way to, you can't think through this one, you know, or, I mean, it just seems like a tangle.

[87:33]

So finding that stillness, and again, it's not a cutting anything off. It's just seeing, do I feel I have to think about this? And maybe that's a little bit. I have something I actually have to think about because I need to do something, and it's really important. And so just opening that a bit. Do I have to think about it? This pressure to think about it. How else might I take care of it? So that's the invitation. It's not a It's not a harsh thing or a strong thing about cutting off. Definitely honors that process of thinking through. But I think we need help, you know? We need something deeper, something more still and silent and less caught up that can really see more clearly. So, yeah, I don't know if that resonates, but just like thinking more about it is maybe not helpful.

[88:41]

You know, in a way it's like we say sit with it, which is different than like think about it. That's like, okay, here it is. You know, just like whatever else might be here, this pain in my shoulder or the sound and sensation. Sit with it, you know. That's different than like get at it through the thinking, to think it through. I don't know if you want to say something or how that sounds for you. Thank you. Yeah, it's just, it's hard. I mean, I guess the question is, like, how do we do that? You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I guess the answer is probably Sitzazen more. Yeah. Yeah. Or just that when we find ourselves turning to the thinking to try to untangle it and just the anxious thinking, you know, to just be aware of that and question it a little bit or just know, like, I hear, you know, this person, I think of this thinker in myself as, like, this anxious thinker is really trying to help me, you know.

[89:48]

So I don't need to be mad at it. You know, it's really trying. But it's just not what it's called for, you know. So to try to just see that. During Zazen, sure, but also just when that energy comes of like, oh my God, I need to think about this. Just having a little bit of space or a little bit of question. Like, I need to take care of this. But maybe thought is not the only way. Thank you for sharing your situation. Sounds quite heart-rending and impossible. And I just appreciate your turning to the Dharma and the Sangha and Buddha for support in this. Thank you. Thank you. Maggie has her hand raised.

[90:57]

Hi. Hi, Jerry. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. Nice to see you. Yeah, nice to see you and everybody in the sangha. Let me turn my hand down because otherwise I'm looking at it. Sorry, it's on my cell phone, which is not the best, but I had a question. I really thank you so much for your talk. Yeah, I've been thinking and thinking and kind of getting lost in it. So, I had a question about assessment. I need to do assessment for my job, and it's important for me to do that. I am hired to assess. You could tell it's against your religion, you know, to assess. Yes, I'm going to say that. I'm not sure what they'll say. They might say, oh, it sounds like you need a new profession. So, yeah, like, and here's the thing is I make, I make assessments and I'm new at my job.

[92:06]

And so then I make mistakes. Like, oh boy. And then I get corrected or, you know, which is just, I know that's just how it works, but I'm just kind of wanting to. like admit that. And it gives my brain, it gives the mind more fodder for like, see, you should have thought about this more. It would have been better if you had thought about it, but you know, just, I guess that comes to compassion for me of like, okay, I did the best I could. And then, so my sort of question is like, how to like bring, I kind of know the answer already, but like how to, how to bring spaciousness to assessment when you need to, it's a little bit like the last question. And then also how to like, God, just like self-forgiveness, you know, when, you know, I'm really doing the best I can and it's just going to be mistakes is part of how I am going to learn.

[93:12]

It's how everyone learns. So it's not just me. So anyway, I just sort of was curious if you have any thoughts about that. Well, you said you maybe have the answer to how you would do the spaciousness. So I'm curious to hear your answer. Yeah, I guess. I mean, I sit every morning, so that helps. But then, yeah, I mean, similar, just like sitting, talking with the people I need to talk with, just like being with my body. even as it is in this moment, kind of a little bit like, you know, just like this sort of energy. Even thinking about these decisions, I have to make it work. You know, so just like being present with that and like letting it flow through me and then eventually I'm calm again, you know, and use my tools like in the moment, breathing and, you know, getting up.

[94:18]

And moving around and going outside and talking with my, you know, professional supports that are already there. And then sitting again at night and in the morning and coming to Dharma Talks, hearing about the solution, reminding me that I don't have to believe everything, I think. And then compassion, just like... just like trying over and over to remember the like, oh my God, I'm doing the best I can. And so is everybody else. And like, this is how people learn too. And even if I learn a lot and I'm in this career for years and years and years, I still have to be present with every new situation. There isn't a formula and I am going to make mistakes forever. So just like, Just like remembering for me that I'm not the only one, that every single person, this is like the way people learn and the way life is.

[95:21]

And I can just be in community around that and not feel so alone. Those are my ideas. I'm curious if you have anything to add. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Well, on the assessment part, you know, I like how Suzuki Roshi says, We maybe need, I mean, we have these scales. We maybe need them to experience anything. I forget exactly how he puts it, but basically we have these scales in our mind. We are assessing, and it's not like, you know, can we turn that all the way off? I don't know. He says maybe we need them, you know. But there's something still a practice of just, you know, when you're seeing this thing that you're assessing. I mean, in terms of the practice part of staying connected with reality, it's like, my job is to describe this thing, but I, you know, now and then I'm aware that, that I'm like, that the thing is not what I'm, is not how I'm describing it, you know?

[96:28]

And I want to stay connected with that, with the thusness, you know, of this thing as well. And it doesn't mean stop describing it or make a new description like it's thusness, you know? But, to know, to not miss the life of this thing, you know? So in the assessment, probably most of the time, we just think the thing, it really is my assessment, you know? And then maybe that's interesting to get the feedback on that of like your assessment was wrong. Your description was wrong. You know, that's like, thank you. I want to know, you don't even know the half of it. You don't know how deeply wrong. See, my description had like big and small. It had an idea of being, you know, you were wrong to being versus not being. So to just try to notice, you know, oh, I am really experiencing this through my assessment of it, but I know and I trust and I believe that it has a life and a suchness that's beyond that. So to not reduce the thing, to stay connected with its livingness, so that comes up.

[97:28]

And then, yeah, we get it wrong. That's like just the process. I appreciate how you spoke about that. Yeah. And then with compassion and self-forgiveness, I just feel like we need a little bit of quiet, you know, to really find that. It's one thing to have those thoughts of, like, everybody's going through this and those kind of mental or thought exercises in compassion. And those are great. But maybe even better, you know, is just to be silent and still and feel, you know, feel that. Feel how we are and know that that everything is that same way, you know? Everything is in the same way that we are. So including ourself, you know? So that being in that stillness and silence gives us a ground, I feel like, to forgive ourself. If we're just totally in ourself, it's hard to forgive ourself, because where else would we?

[98:32]

We need to stand somewhere else to do that. So it's a great opportunity to plant ourselves in refuge, really, or no self, I am also not, I also am beyond assessment, you know? So you're assessing things and you're doing it wrong, apparently. So now your assessment of yourself and other people's assessment of you, at least with respect to one instance, might be one way. And to say, yeah, that's your assessment. It might be accurate assessment, but that doesn't touch the true reality of my life. My own assessment, I'm great. My own assessment, I'm terrible. Or it's great, it's terrible. Those are not touching. So there's the assessment and then there's the reality. And just knowing that those are separate maybe helps. Thank you for just also tending these basic practices of just sitting zazen helps and talking about the dharma helps. Thank you, Maggie, for coming. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

[99:35]

Maybe I'll tell my workplace that. Yeah, I'm beyond assessment, actually. Yeah. No, I won't do that. Thank you. You can know it. You know, how about know it? Tell yourself, you know, know it. You know it for yourself. In a way, you know, do we know it for ourselves? Yeah. That we are beyond compare, you know? We are the moon. We are like, say, you know, I like it. I don't like it, you know, good or bad. It's like what we are is beyond, totally beyond assessment. Yeah, yeah, you could try that. They might not be as open as they might. Thank you very much. Thank you. it's not necessarily that we'll stop assessing each other you know and all things but just to know this deep respect that knows that this assessment isn't really touching maybe that's all for this morning i want to thank you really for being here and joining this

[101:07]

conversation. I wish you all a wonderful day and may you be supported in your practice. Thank you very much. Thank you, Juryu. If anybody would like to unmute to say goodbye, you can do so now. Thank you very much. Thank you. Wonderful talk. Thank you, Juryu. Thank you very much. Thank you, Juryu. Thank you very much. Beautiful talk, beautiful. Okay, signing off. Thanks very much, everybody. And thank you, Kogetsu.

[101:55]

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