the evening again. A little brief moment there where I thought I had fallen asleep. I thought, well, that's not good. Kind of woke me up. I was like, oops. Anyway, something can be extremely comforting at times, you know, like the first few minutes when you get in bed at night, cozy with your pillow, you know, something very familiar and restful. So as some of you know, I'm preparing to leave. California and traveled for a few months in Europe with my partner and seeing her old friends and family and new places and adventures and so on. So it's unusual. I haven't done such a thing for a very long time. Actually, never. So I'm both excited and like, wow, you know, it's going to be very different. But I will miss being here. And I... I hope you all, we'll talk about it at the end, but I hope you all, if you decide to get together, that that would be something you would do and enjoy doing.

[01:16]

I'll be back on the first week of October. So, this evening, I've been continuing reading on in Suzuki Roshi's wonderful, wonderful book, Send My Beginner's Mind. And this talk that we're doing, looking at this week, is one I remember. from decades ago when I first picked up this book a long time ago. I was living at that time in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. I found it in a bookstore. And as I read through it, I thought, I don't know what's going on here. But I remember a couple of things, the picture of a fly on one of the pages that I turned to. I thought, well, that's unusual. And then later on, this particular chapter, which is about frogs. And I think, well, these two go together somehow, the fly and the frog. So I've really enjoyed this particular chapter because it kind of hooks me back in to those first time I read it. And also because, you know, he begins this talk with a lot of admiration for frogs.

[02:18]

But then he mentions that whenever he says the word frog, all of the students laugh. So at the same time, he goes on to say that we should really understand how the frog is not so different from us sitting here. And at that time, he was sitting in a room full of Zen students who were all most likely sitting on zapus, and were quite a bit younger than him. And he said, frog's not so different from us sitting here in our Dharma positions. You know, the problem that we make for ourselves is thinking that what we're doing, you know, is really something special, something much more noble than that lowly amphibian, you know, the one that we clever monkeys like laughing at, right? So basically, what he's saying is that we do the same simple things throughout our lives that they do. We eat when we're hungry, we sleep when we're tired, and we frown when we're annoyed, just like the frogs. And then he said that along with frogs, we also tend to think of ourselves...

[03:26]

And what we're doing sitting in zazen is much more important than whatever our friends and our lazy family members might be doing at the same time, you know, when they're not there sitting next to us. You know, whether they're still up in bed or whether they're at home reading some romantic novel, we think what we're doing is quite a bit more important than that, right? Of course we do. But the point he's making about our sitting practice, about zazen, is that it's really nothing special. And I always thought that was kind of a trick, you know, nothing special. Oh, yeah, right, something special. And another trick he would play is that, you know, you don't have to be ordained. You don't have to take on the robes and do all of this sitting and so on to be Buddha, you know, and then he's sitting up there in his robes with his shaved head doing lots of sitting. So, you know, there's always this little funny thing. Oh, you don't have to do what I'm doing. And at the same time, we admired him so greatly that it seemed like, well, whether we have to or not, there's something about you that we'd really like to understand and to be like.

[04:33]

We'd like to be like you. So then Suzuki Roshi tells the story of this famous Tang dynasty Zen master by the name of Basho. Basho is Japanese name. In Chinese, his name is Matsu. So I'm going to use the word Matsu, the name Matsu. Matsudao Yi. Matsu was called the horse master, and he was... quite a remarkable figure apparently because his appearance has passed on down through the ages. This is 8th century China and word of his exceptional size and his very loud voice and the fact that he could stick his tongue out and wrap it all the way around to the top of his nose. That kind of made it along with his teachings down through the centuries. So... I think some of you may have heard Grace Damman's talk this morning. She gave the talk at Green Gotcha, which is quite lovely. And she talked about this very story, which I thought was nice that we're talking about the story that she talked about and taught on this morning.

[05:36]

So this story is a very famous one about Matsu, who as a sincere young monk would spend many, many hours sitting in meditation. And being a large man, his teacher described him as sitting like a mountain. or like a giant frog, Suzuki Roshi says. So when Matsu's teacher asked him what he was doing sitting there, Matsu replied, I am practicing to become a Buddha. So then his teacher, whose name was Nanyue, picked up a tile and began polishing the tile. So it's like a roof tile. In China they have these ceramic, these clay tiles. So he picks up one of those tiles and starts polishing it. And Masu says to him, what are you doing? And Nanyue says, I'm going to make this tile into a jewel or into a mirror. Some stories say a mirror or a jewel, something really valuable. And Masu then asks, well, how is it possible to make a jewel, make a tile into a jewel?

[06:40]

And the teacher replies, well, how is it possible to make a Buddha by sitting zazen? If you want to, he says then, then he says to Matsu, if you want to attain Buddhahood, there is no Buddhahood beside your ordinary mind. Nothing special. Adding, when a cart does not go, which do you whip? Do you whip the cart or do you whip the horse? So I want to confess that this last question, which do you whip, the cart or the horse, has always been a little confusing to me. And I always think, wait a minute, that seems kind of obvious. You whip the horse. I mean, don't whip anybody, but, you know, poke the horse, not the cart. And I thought, well, because it's obvious, that can't be the right answer. You know, this is Zen. Zen, you know, nothing should be that easy in Zen. So it always ended up confusing me because I thought, why would he say something that's so obvious? Of course, you poke the horse, not the cart.

[07:44]

So in this story, I actually had forgotten that Suzuki Roshi basically addresses that question, saying that it's when we're confused about which makes the most sense, hitting the cart or the horse, that we are pretty much overthinking the problem. And I thought, oh, that's really good. That was really good. And I thought to myself, I'm overthinking the problem. Just poke the horse, you know. Don't try to figure out which one, you know. Just because he asked it as a question, you don't have to be confused by it. So by overthinking the problem, our minds get very foggy, and it's very hard for us to decide what to do. So in such a case, we've already wandered away from ourself and from any hope of a good answer. Is it the cart? Is it the horse? Should I hit the horse? Should I hit the cart? You know, and so on. And basically, nothing moves. And then Roshi says, in truth, well, the cart and the horse are not different when you are being you.

[08:46]

The cart and the horse are not different when you are being you. And then I thought, if the cart is a metaphor for the problems that we carry around with us, you know, our load, our baggage, then the horse is each of us making the decision or not to go forward in order to find our way, you know, in order to bring... along with us, all of our problems, which we have no choice but to do. So it really doesn't matter which one you hit. They're together. You and your problems, the cart and the horse, will move forward together. So the Nemroshi says that this is the same with Zazen. Your Zazen and your problems are always going forward together. When you practice Zazen, then everything practices with you. Your sleeping partner, the guy down the street, your lazy cousins are all practicing zazen together with you. Everything is together with you, with whatever you're doing.

[09:49]

So it's when we think that they aren't practicing or they are doing things wrong that our practice effort becomes like nanyue, polishing a tile to make a jewel. This has got to be better. We've got to make this better. We have to do something to improve the situation here. And so then Nanyue is pointing out to his student, Matsu, that working harder on ourselves, you know, the tile, as if someone much better will result from that, you know, jewel, is not true practice. That is not our practice. Matsu is thinking that right now he is not so good, not such a good student, but he'll be really good after he practices for a long time and makes himself into a better student, much better student, a better Matsu. It's just like that for us. We imagine, and in both cases, that me right now and the better me later, or me right now here doing Zazen and separate from all those people who are not doing Zazen, in both cases we have separated ourselves.

[10:55]

you know, either in time, as if there's me later and me now, you know, or over there, those people over there. So in both cases, we're basically doing this very, you know, the very thing that practice is the opposite from doing, which is creating dualities, creating two things, this one and that one, me and them, and so on. So... You know, we're separating ourselves from other people. We're separating ourselves from some idea we have of ourselves as being better than we are. So either way, we are not practicing in the true spirit of zazen. So what Nanyue was teaching Matsu is that whatever we do with the right spirit is zazen. You know, true zazen. Suzuki Roshi says... A true zazen is beyond being in bed or sitting in the zendo. True zazen is always to be like a frog, just sitting, just eating, just joining our friends in an evening chorus.

[11:58]

He also mentioned something about Dogen's comment on this koan. Dogen says, when the horse master becomes the horse master, zen becomes zen. So when matsu becomes matsu, Zen becomes Zen. When I become me, I become... Zen becomes Zen. When you become you, Zen becomes Zen, and so on. So it's this not trying to be something other than we are, not separating ourselves into some idea of someone else that we could possibly be. So no matter what we do, that is us, inseparable. Roshi then tells another very famous koan about a Zen master named... Zuikan, who every morning when he gets up, he dresses himself. He said, Zuikan? And he responds, yes. He said, Zuikan? Yes. So even though Zuikan lived alone in a small temple, he still every morning says, Zuikan?

[13:02]

And he answers, yes. So he tells us that we too should be addressing ourselves in just that way. And even though we know who we are, sort of, at least we know our name, we often lose ourselves. You know, we forget. We forget ourselves. We get lost, not in a good way, in a lost way. And even when we're sitting there with an intention to be present, you know, we get sleepy. Or our mind starts wandering off. We daydream. Or when we are uncomfortable, we wish that we could end... It's the sitting there. Go do something else for a while, and so on. That's losing ourself. And that when we lose ourselves, that our problems become actual problems for us. It's when we're part of the problem that we're having, when the problem is a part of us, then it's not a problem. It's just the cart being pulled by the horse. There's a team. There's me, and there's the problems, and that's all me.

[14:04]

All of that is me. So he gives an example of checking up on ourselves the way a doctor does by this continual tapping, you know, tap, tap. You know how a doctor taps on your knee, checks your reflexes and so on. He says, you know, it's like that. It's just like Zuikon. Zuikon? Yes. Hey, you? Yes. Hey, foo? Yes. Are you awake? Yes. So on. So then he proposes that polishing the tile... It's just this. That's what that is. Checking up on ourselves is polishing the tile. And it's not for the purpose of making a jewel or a mirror. It's not why we sit. It's not why we practice. But it's for the purpose of polishing. Just polishing the activity itself, the sitting itself. Just sitting, as we often say. And that's how we live in this world, how we work in this world, and how we are going to take care of this world. It's not a matter of making a Buddha or making a jewel.

[15:06]

It's a matter of polishing, continuously polishing. So as long as we eat and we work and we take our seat in the zendo, and then now and then we hang out with our friends, then we are polishing the tile. And this is the true practice. And it's the practice of a frog. And when you understand the frog through and through, Suzuki Rishi says, you're enlightened. You are Buddha. And you are good. For others, too, you're good, whether as a partner or as a parent or as a friend. Whatever you do will be good, you being you. Okay. So that's what I wanted to say about this talk. But mostly I wanted to offer time to all of you, first of all, to offer your own thoughts about you being you and about frogs or whatever else you'd like to bring up. But I also thought it would be good for us to spend a little extra time today just... deciding what's going to happen next week and the next weeks after that and what you'd like to do, how to connect.

[16:08]

I couldn't figure out a way to turn over my Zoom account to someone, but I think maybe one of you has one that you might be willing to offer and one of you might be willing to help, you know, work things out for everybody. I know there have been some names were collected. I think Kakuan. gathered some names of people, and there you are. Kakuan, it would be wonderful to have you maybe talk to us about that, how that's going to go. Hello. Hi, Fu. Hello, Sangha. Thank you so much for your talk. I apologize for my tardiness. I was sitting Zazen right before, and I forgot to change the usual timer in time, so my apologies. was going to mention uh i think you you made a good point my only concern would be the zoom account that i have i think limits to 30 minutes so that is the i think that's the only question is uh what zoom account can we use to to host so and maybe we can look into this um can you hear me i'm so sorry to interject this is

[17:27]

I have a Zoom Pro account and I am more than happy. It's unlimited. I'm more than happy to host. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Can you put us on gallery, please? We'll go on gallery so we can all share this. Because what I was also going to say, since we have that, resolved which is wonderful um next week for me one way or another baby's coming but uh so oh that next week will be a big a big week for me so um thanks for us that's our baby for everyone right exactly yeah with all of us um yeah but what that would mean is that i most likely won't be able to um attend next weekend next sundays i think this these next two weeks from what I've heard, I'll probably be even more lost than the baby and they don't even know what, you know, what's, what's going on.

[18:31]

But, um, from then on what we could try as one of the options is to play back some of the videos that, um, that I have even on, on my own end, I could play it back. My only concern with that, which we'll have to try, um, maybe not next weekend, but the weekend after is if, um the Wi-Fi and the internet is going to play it back so I'll need some of your feedback if we do want to go that route um if I play it here I want to make sure that we can all see it well and hear it and it's not freezing up for anyone but that may be a one of the options for when we do meet um if we there's uh no nothing else we'd like to do we could always play back some of the the recordings we have for I think three years worth now. So a lot of topics. You know, I think, I think that's an idea, but I'd like to hear from other people.

[19:33]

I hope you might want to, no, no, thank you. I hope you would want to talk to each other and maybe share a particular teaching that would be of interest to you. A set mind beginner's mind is kind of wonderful and we've already gone through a lot of chapters, but it's not, it's not in such a systematic approach. It's not so systematic like the precepts, for example, that might be something you could consider doing because there are 16 precepts. There's a rep's book. If you wanted to start looking at precepts together, that's another option. Or anything else somebody wants to name, that would be something you could discuss. You could also just open up the floor. I know some of you have been in other groups that meet online. And it might be nice to hear how you go about coming up with your topic for that period of time. I noticed Dean has her hand up, Dean. What did you want to offer for us? I wanted to say that chances are we'll need to go with Melissa's offering because the only way to have more than half an hour is a free account.

[20:38]

And so she's got a business account, so that would be the best way to do it. And if we did want to listen to one of your talks, it would also be an option. She'd be able to show it on her screen and we could watch it. But it would also be kind of nice to take that last half hour or hour and everybody in the group discuss it amongst ourselves and bring different ideas up. But I would also, I mean, I don't want to go off on the topic, but I also had something to say about what you read from Suzuki Roshi's thing tonight. So I can wait so other people can go ahead and talk about our plan and maybe you can get back to me. Okay, great. So my question still is, how are people going to get on your Zoom, Melissa? She'll send a link.

[21:41]

But how does she know who to send it to? Yeah, I will send a link to Kakouan. And then Kakouan can distribute it amongst the group. I think I have everyone's email addresses, but just in case I don't, I'll start with Kakouan. Okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. Good. And what I've done is I've put that... I think I sent an email with everyone that I've originally received, everyone's contact information. And as I've received more, I've added them to sort of a mailing list that I have. So whenever we do get that link, Kosan, I'll make sure to send it out. And I won't blind copy anyone. if everybody's okay with it, we'll all be able to see everyone's email. So even if I'm have to be offline for the next couple of weeks, hopefully you'll already have all of those contact points and, and everything. So I think that might be wonderful.

[22:42]

I will do that after I get home from walking the dog. Perfect. And then I will send that tomorrow. I'll, I'll, I'll see if I can get that out and everybody already has that ready to go for next week. So if some of you who are right now here haven't yet sent your email contact to Kakuan, you can do that right now, right? Can't they just put that into the chat? Kakuan, could you put your email address in the chat, please? That's what I was... Yes, exactly. Thank you. I can't send it directly, so I sent it to Zendo Events and I'll send it to you as well, Fu. Great. There it is. And I think that's a wonderful, all of these are wonderful ideas. What's great about the precepts is that there's always something to talk about.

[23:44]

At least I know for me, there's always something related to the precepts to discuss for sure. So, Coco, and you've got Steve. Hi, Steve. Welcome. Steve just mentioned he's new, so he's... Steve, you'll send your email to Kakuan then? Oh, you're sending it to him? I think we need to copy and paste it into the chat for everyone. I sent it... Yes, perfect. Thank you so much. There it is now. Okay, great. That's Guy's email. Kakuan. Thank you. Just send your contact to him, and then he and... The former Melissa will be together and able to do this for all of us. That's wonderful. Thank you both. Thank you both. So maybe, is that enough on that? So that will happen as it happens. And whatever you all do, I would love to hear when I come back how it all went. And Cynthia, have your hand up.

[24:48]

Yes. Oh, all I wanted to say was I didn't have Kakuan's email, but now that you put it up there, I will email him, say add me to the list, and then I will hear. Exactly. Things. Yes. John might be new as well. John, welcome. And Marvin, I think, all of you are welcome to just join in if you like. There was one more thing I wanted to suggest is this morning I went to Grace's talk. Yeah. I think I saw hope there. But I didn't know it was hope until I saw her face just now. And anyway, but I thought maybe one thing we can do is maybe discuss who's going to go to Green Gulch or City Center for Dharma Talks. And if we know who those people are ahead of time, it would have to be Sunday night for the following Saturday or Sunday.

[25:56]

Maybe we can. It's so different. I just saw this woman. I said, I just know that face. And now it's like, oh. And it would have been really nice to check in and say, I'm getting to know you through Sangha. Anyway, I thought maybe we could work on anybody who wants to go to any of the Dharma talks, share that. Great. Excellent idea. That's it. Not too many people are local, but those who are, that would be really nice. Or passing through, going to be stopping by Green Gulch. Okay. Well, it'll be just me and Hope. Well, Hope isn't local either, but there may be some other folks around Green Gulch. It'd be wonderful if you could get together there. I'd like that myself. Hey, Jerry. Welcome, welcome. Now, Dean, you said you had a question about the talk, and you want to bring that up, and then Hope, I saw your hand. Well, I didn't really have a question, so Hope, why don't you go first?

[27:00]

Mine is not so relevant. I was just going to say that when we meet online, I like the ideas that you all came up with. So I took my hand down. Oh, okay. I have a question. When will you be back? First week of October. So actually October 1st. So whatever Sunday follows that, I think it's the third or sixth, October 6th. Jerry. Jerry, you're muted. That's the story of my life. Well, now you're free. It doesn't take much. No. I just wanted to reiterate your good suggestion that we, in my words, create some kind of a structure going forward.

[28:13]

I'm not new to Green Gulch. But I'm new to this group. And I'm delighted you're taking time off and going to Europe. How wonderful. Thank you. And maybe those of you who are regular attendees have a good grasp on how to move forward, which I'm happy to follow. But in the event that there's uncertainty or questions, I think those should be attended to. Did you have some particular thing in mind when you, that you're. Not really. You know, the format seems to be, you know, your format is to give a brief time and talk and then open it up for reflections on either what you've said or the person speaking has said or bringing in something that's concerning us. That's part of our practice. Right. So I think it's all fine.

[29:15]

Great. Okay. Good. Thank you. Thank you. Mellicent. And then Lisa. Soren. I've just tried to send an email to Kakuan with that address, dspina.me.com, and I've got a little message that says it's invalid. So... At the moment, excuse me, I can see I received an email from Cynthia, John, and Jerry. So maybe I would double-check. Was the spelling exact? You have to polish the tile more. When it comes to a digital tile, I must admit, I... Throw it out of the window very often.

[30:17]

Melissa, did you read what you have there for an address? I'm just going back to my contacts to make sure that I've got it spelled properly. Well, let me see here. I could probably. I've got G-U-I-S-P-I-N-A at M-E dot com. which is exactly what you've got there. Okay. So I just sent you an email because I do have yours, so that should make it easy. Then you can just respond to that one if it does come across. Okay. It hasn't come up yet. I'll let you know how that goes. Let me know because we were – we did – trade at least a couple. It was working. Yes. We'll hopefully make it go back.

[31:19]

Sorry to interrupt, but I notice if in the chat you click on where it says Gispina, that's an active link. I think it's just one of those funny glitches, don't you reckon? It might be just an internet or some sort of... I can't tell you how many issues are resolved. And I think, Paul, you mentioned this by just turning it off and turning it back on. That's the secret. Resolution is the step one. That's what they'll teach you on day one. It's a bit like doing sassy, isn't it? Exactly. What do you mean just turn it on and off? It can't be just this. How did it work? What did it fix? I don't know. Just unplug it and plug it back. We'll trust it.

[32:22]

We know we're all connected. It's in faith with our Buddha. It's all working. Lisa, Soren. There we go. Hello, all, Fu and Sangha. So, first of all, I know what it is with a computer. It's the capacitance gremlin. You know? And it's just holding the charge, and you just have to turn it off and starve it. Anyhow, so I had experience recently, in fact, ongoing experience with our precepts group, at Brattleboro Zen Center. And one of the things that has worked well for us is reading in advance, knowing what we're going to be reading and having thought about it some, you know, a little time to pre-digest, if you will, seems to keep the conversation going better for us.

[33:38]

There are about six of us in the group, six to seven. And that number, along with a little advanced work, really does keep the conversation flowing for us. These are just observations on what's worked for us and for what size group it's worked. Well, I like that idea of reading ahead. And I think, you know, since we've been looking at Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, that's a possibility. You just take the next talk in Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, and all of you read it, and then you can discuss that together because they're very rich. There's so much content to each of these talks. So that would be one way to go that's just continuing with what we're doing already. It's just I won't happen to be there. But that's one way to go rather than starting a new book. And then also, that'll get you further ahead in the book so we get closer to finishing, in which case we can go on to something new, like some suggestion we had of the 10 oxalating pictures, which I think would be really enjoyable, as a different kind of exploration, a little bit like the five ranks.

[34:53]

It has this kind of sense of looking at what does it mean to the path? What is the path of practice? And practice is going where? What's going to be the outcome of all of that? I think that's a particularly good storyline. So that's one idea. I would say either the precepts or continuous MIM beginner's mind are two possibilities, unless one of you has another suggestion. Hope. Well, we're back on it, so I will bring up my suggestion. And I'm trusting, it seems like, Kakuan to make the... executive decisions here um but one idea that i think would be really interesting and cool to kind of get to know each other and each other's practice practices a little bit more intimately might be that like one person chooses some sort of passage and brings it and reads it and then we could discuss it um and then like choose you know

[36:03]

the next person to pick something for the next week and maybe they could decide and send a link along that we could read ahead or something like that. So that's just one possibility. I think I'd be interested to see what all of you are studying and learn from each of your own practice and wisdom. But no, I'd be happy with anything. Get a thumb up on that. So I do like the idea also of Kokwon, you being the many thumbs up. That's kind of cheating. I like the idea of you being sort of the concert master and helping to filter the ideas and then maybe go forward with one of them and see how it goes.

[37:05]

But it seems like there was some positive regard for what Hope just said. People, maybe if we had a volunteer, that would be a way to start. If Hope, for example, you were to be volunteering to begin the selection and offer something, that would really simplify the whole thing. What do you think? I would be happy to. If that's what folks want to do, I'd be happy to. to start that next week. So is that okay if you all want to put a thumb up or say, well, this talks a little more, but there's some more thumbs. So if there are plenty of thumbs, there's a hand with a thumb. Dean, yeah, go ahead. I think since we're probably going to end up using Melissa's Zoom, I think she needs to be involved as one of the people who are... sorting this out and making decisions also because we've got someone who's going to be a full-time daddy, you know, babies aren't predictable.

[38:12]

So we can't assume that, you know, he can lead everything. So I think it would be, you know, maybe the three people hope and, and we and, um, gee and, um, Melissa. Good idea. Yes. Yep. Hi, all. Sorry to not be on camera, but I'm preserving bandwidth. This is Melissa again. I just sent to Zendo Events a link for my Zoom room that you could just post into the chat for everybody. And I set it to start on August 4th. That gives us two weeks to the next one. Is that all okay with everyone? I think from my understanding... Next week. We're starting next year. I can start it back one week. It'll be the same link, but I'll just change the date. Perfect. Yeah, I think if we keep that cadence, and what I really enjoyed about Hope's idea is, personally, for me, I'd really like to hear what you would have to say on some of the remaining talks.

[39:26]

So I would... want to continue with that opportunity i like you said i think there's so much so much there and and either way we will continue the discussion afterwards and i think it's very interesting to um to see what comes up from the sangha as well i i i thought that was very interesting what what what is challenging us or maybe not so much i I feel like that's a great way forward, and I appreciate the support. Hopefully an hour and a half on Sundays, I have some support over here as well, so hopefully it will behave enough, but it's true. I think it's great to share the responsibilities, and Kosan as well, since you will be hosting it, let us know how we can support that as well. So Kosan, how does that sound to you, that you and Kakuan together, will be holding the space and that hope will be your first chooser of a topic and presenter of something. And that you all will be there next week to do that together.

[40:30]

And in case Kaka'an can't be there because of we know what, then Melissa, you would be holding that with hope. How does that sound to you? That sounds wonderful. I am happy to be here for the Sangha in whatever way. Great. Wonderful. So I hear... Uh, I see Cynthia's hand. And Millicent, did you have your hand up? No, she's good. You're good. You got it. You got connected. Okay. Fabulous. Okay. Then Cynthia. Okay. Just a quick question. So in the chat, we have an invite. It looks like to the, um, new zoom spot. However, what I'm wondering is, do we need to copy that or will Coco, Coco, send that out in an email? I'll send it out. I'm copying it right now and I'll send it out as well. Okay. So I can ignore that. I don't have to paste it and save it someplace where it'll get lost anyway. No, I am doing that right now for you.

[41:32]

And as long as I don't lose it. Okay. So, okay. I'm not letting me copy and paste off of the, um, off of the chat. I forget that it does that, but, um, but Kosan, if you wouldn't mind sending me that same link, I'll make sure that it gets sent out as well in case. we aren't able to get it. I'm taking a quick screenshot as well. There we go. So I should have it either way, so I'll send that out tomorrow. Thank you. As long as my wife doesn't go into labor tonight, right? It's all with the discretion, but I feel very confident. And I believe, Kosan, you've already, you're in the chain with mostly everyone, so I think... But but it seems like. Yeah, I'm happy to. His time. So I'm happy to be your vice. I'm happy to be your vice president. No, if you don't send it. No, no, no, no. I already have too much of that, I think, in my life.

[42:36]

Thank you. Fabulous. Thank you so much, both of you, all of you. This is really, really wonderful to see you in action. You know, like forming a new Zen center or something. It's like all of a sudden we have a committee and we have a chair and a president, a vice president. That's fabulous. So if that's good, if everyone feels connected and so on, we have some more time if you'd like to spend it with some little bit of Dharma conversation. Anything that came up in our reading today or anything's going on in your lives that you'd like to bring up and... Oh, by the way, Kakuan, you better send us a message when the baby comes, please. I will, I will. I'll introduce him to everyone. Maybe what I'll do is we'll have a little, I'm sure Vanessa will want to do a little birth announcement, so I'll send that out to the group, whoever wants to see the new human on this. Wow.

[43:38]

And then also hope if you'd like to, I think you're also in the chain, but if you want to share with me whenever or whatever you pick or with myself and Kosan, we'll make sure to try to get that out to everyone so we can do some pre-reading ahead of time, I think would be great as well. So thank you. So Steve and Marvin, did you both get connected with all that? And John, did you all get the information that you need if you'd like to join that? You're very welcome, by the way, if you'd like to join in this wild group. So one thing we didn't discuss was...

[44:39]

Are you going to send each of us a postcard from Europe? Well, that's a very good question. I think what I'll do is I will connect with our co-chairs and have, when I get the baby picture, that'll stimulate me to send a picture of where I am to all of you. So I'll do that. Our first stop will be London, England. Well, I wanted to wish you and Karina a wonderful time. I am so excited for the both of you. I'm sure it's going to be wonderful. I know you've taken some time out there. So it's great that you're taking this opportunity after so much that you've committed and almost hunkered down in a way, right, for us and for the Dharma. So it brings me a lot of happiness to see.

[45:43]

that you get that opportunity as well right because i i'm sure it's it's wonderful i i've uh i've traveled to london and traveling in general you don't really have to go very far right to already open your eyes and and see how the way other humans are living and interacting the differences the similarities it's there's something wonderful about these experiences You know, we're really getting very excited once we get done packing. I think that's the part that's a little bit like moving, you know, because you're going to take your whole little life in a suitcase. So that part is, you know, almost done. We're almost there. We just got one more day and then off into the rocket ship. Jerry. I moved to share this. Oh, I love it. Yeah. This is a, I must have received this 20 years ago or more, but I want to read the four lines from the Book of Surrendity, Case 20, for you, Fu.

[46:51]

Thank you. Dizong asked Fayan, if I'm saying these names correctly, where are you going? Fayan said, around on pilgrimage. Dizong said, what is the purpose of pilgrimage? And Fayan said, I don't know. And Dizang said, not knowing is most intimate. Thank you. Wonderful story. Wonderful story. I actually have that very same picture right next to me, sitting here right now. Thank you, Jerry. I feel like there's a sea change just happened today that I just want to name. I was in the dining room and everyone was gathering around going, did you hear the news? Did you hear the news?

[47:52]

So as you all probably have heard, the news that Joe Biden has stepped down as a nominee and has directed his support to Kamala Harris. So we're all going like, wow. Wow. So we don't know what's going to happen. We don't know where this is headed. But I could feel my body really reacted, and I'm sure everyone else was feeling that in our conversation here. So I would imagine you all are having some reactions in your bodies as well. So we don't know where these things go or what they mean or how far, not knowing is nearest, clearly. But I feel some, I don't want to exactly call it hopeful, but there's something like, at least I feel some sense of, know like coming together maybe and you know whether it goes one way or the other and doesn't really matter because coming together is what what has been the joy of my life so i hope as with all of you coming together this community and our community and sin center and all of our friends that that's going to be the part that's really wonderful that we feel that that coming together again and um and we need it you know this this world really needs that

[49:10]

What you said reminded me of something that I think, if I'm saying the name correctly, Shugenrochi at Zen Mountain Monastery said the last day that I was there for a retreat. It was a beginner's um sort of the first introduction to zen type of retreat um and right at the end he said that if to to the assembly all of the newcomers he said that if this is not your path then keep searching because the world needs people who know what's going on i thought that was that was wonderful both in the way of that it's okay if you don't want to come back or if this is not for you or if this is not um your path per se but there is there is a path right for our own it reminds me of what suzuki roshi um had said and we had talked about where when we said um when we adopt so uh strongly or clinging to things even to teachings right um that

[50:38]

at some point we feel as though we'll need to abandon it right so it's i really what i've really appreciated about um zen and zen practices is this uh what you had first told me right the buddha didn't say listen to me it's not about listening to me it's about try try the teachings for yourself right try it on and it's perfectly okay if you know this might not fit right but there's there's that underlying right the all-pervading mind, Buddha nature, we couldn't escape it regardless of what path you think we're taking, right? It's just helpful. Thank you. Thank you, Keith. Thank you. It's interesting here with the folks from all different traditions, a very eclectic group of folks here have done a lot of practice for a lot of years, some of them 40, 50 years of different traditions than the one I've been doing. So it's really been... Very interesting to talk together about now what?

[51:40]

You know, now what? Since we've had all the support of the tradition and the communities and the ritual and the clothing and I've got all this equipment. Yeah, and it's sort of, it really is. I think I told you last week, I don't know if I told you, but about the Tour de France, the guy who won I think I mentioned it last week. Did I? Yeah. Some of you weren't here. Anyway, he won this stage. The stage means one of the days, and they just finished the 21st day of this grueling 2,000-mile race that these incredible athletes are doing. And one of them, who's been doing this for years, he's almost 40, won the stage that gave him this really high number of successes over his lifetime. And it was amazing. Everyone's like, yay. And he was asked, you know, well, how do you feel? And I think they were expecting something different than what he said. He was very quiet. And he said, well, it reminds me of when I was a kid and I had all these Nintendo games.

[52:46]

And I managed every one of those stages. I did them all. I passed them all. And I got to the last one. And I completed that quest. And at the end of it, I remember thinking, now what? So I think he said the same thing about winning this major race. Now what? So I feel that's always a good question for us, not to send us down, but to send us maybe open in a wider way, kind of like the pilgrimage idea. Now what? What's the next stage or step of our pilgrimage? And let's not pre-decide. Really try to be open to what's next because we don't know. Millicent said, Melissa had her hand up first for you. Thank you, Melissa. Hi. Hi. Sorry again for not appearing on screen. I actually just have a book recommendation in case you wanted some pleasure reading on your vacation.

[53:52]

Have you heard of Matrix by Lauren Groff? No. I'll write that down. It's a lovely book about an abbess in, I think, 11th century England. I just had been meaning to recommend it to you in case you hadn't heard of it for some time. But then you mentioned in going to England, I thought, oh, this is exactly the moment. So that was all Matrix by Lauren Groff. Thank you. G-R-O-F-F? Correct. Great. Thank you. In fact, book recommendations are really welcome among us. Some excellent book recommendations from some of you. So any of you have something you think is a must read or even a fun read, please feel free to share those with all of us. Millicent? Just a couple of things, Fu.

[54:53]

I've been – someone told me the names of the – senior women who have gone to where you are, Enso Village, and I'm just aware of this, just from Zen Centre's tradition, the people who have gone to Enso Village, of this fantastic, probably unique, cache of very, very seasoned, wise old women. And as an old woman myself, I'm very keen to hear about the birth of this new movement because, as you say, it's not just Soto Zen wisdom but much wider wisdom too, but I do think that there's an untapped exploration of...

[55:55]

being an old Zen person. Of course, I'm personally involved in this. Yeah, you're a charter member. Indeed. I hope this, I'm confident that, I mean, I do have some anxiety that this cream of wisdom has been creamed off from Zen Centre. But, yeah, I'm sure. instinctively I think this is the birth of a new movement, of a new wisdom coming out of this, gosh, what a pool of experience. You know, it's really, what you're touching on, just today at lunch I was sitting with, you know, three women friends, and then we were kind of swarmed by a couple more came in. So we moved to a bigger table, and then we moved to a bigger table. And pretty soon there were like about 10 people around, all women. I mean, men are more than welcome. They tend to sit back a little bit.

[56:57]

Anyway, I'd love to meet all the men and have them included. But the women seemed to naturally kind of get together and start to buzz. So we were buzzing together. And there was a... you know, a physician and a financial planner and there's, you know, and these, you know, rabid bicycle riders who just went on these hundred mile tours, you know, and it was everything you could think of, a winemaker. She was the head of the Simi Wine. She was a winemaker for Simi Winery. She's sitting there with her partner and, and we were just all kind of enjoying. what we could offer. It was just not only from a Dharma perspective, but from medicine and from a one's another homeopath. She's got a book coming out. And I just thought, holy cow, you couldn't put this together. You know, you couldn't actually call it out, but here it is just organically coming and offering. Everyone's offering their, what they know and what they love. And we're all, I must say, I feel like there's a lot of love toward each other.

[57:59]

That's, that's, growing organically and i think the the thing that we'll learn from sadly uh probably most of all is as we each die there's going to be tremendous feeling in the community of that both the connection and what it means when that connection is being you know taken from us as it is in our own lives anyway but but this preciousness of this jewel net that is forming here and and the um the fact that we're here at the end of our lives has got so much poignancy to it and richness to it. Mostly you should come on over. It's really a nice opportunity at this stage of life to have what you're pointing at. I think it's true. And you can't make it. It's just there. We'll go on the road, but... But, you know, maybe people can come in and join us and feel that feeling that they have when they come to Zen Center, too.

[59:05]

They go, oh, something special going on here. You know, like Suzuki Rishi said, you know, I'm just going to the Zendo. I'm just eating my lunch. I'm just doing this, the stuff that monks do. But when he left and came back, he could feel the extraordinary, you know, gift that he'd received by living in that way. with these other people. So I think that's happening here. When I heard the list of names that had gone just from Zen Centre that were all familiar to me, and I thought, goodness gracious, what richness of experience and teaching is gathering in that place where you are. And I think Kate will pull from what you've said too. And them. Yeah, but I have a tile polishing question. Now, my example of trying to send an email to Takuan and it didn't work and it didn't work and then there was a conversation and it still didn't work and I've no idea why it didn't work and I felt very frustrated.

[60:22]

And someone commented that this was polishing the tile. You know, I get the nothing special because it is so tempting to think that our practice is pretty special with all the costumes and names and rituals and stuff. But I don't know that my frustration about trying to send an email that didn't go is which is so trivial, I don't know that I had an experience that was any different than if I hadn't ever, ever sat Zazen. I don't think my frustration has been modified, so, you know. Yeah, I don't think Zazen is going to do that for us, you know. I think frustration is frustration and it's pure.

[61:22]

It's very pure. It doesn't need fixing. My anger doesn't need fixing. My adoration doesn't need fixing. They're very pure. And as long as I'm fully in it, it's like the cart and the horse. We're not separate from one another. It's not somebody else's frustration. My life is made up of that. And I'd miss it. I would miss all of those crazinesses if they all of a sudden disappeared. I was just, you know, I don't know why I can't even imagine what I would be without all of my, you know, all of the arisings. But, you know, I would imagine, I don't know, I don't want to guess, but I would imagine you're pretty used to yourself by now. I mean, has it been too different from when you were a young girl or, you know, the frustration was just like that?

[62:24]

Oh, that's me. That's me. Yes. Yes, and I get it that. Gee, I get it that frustration is frustration or anger or affection or whatever. It just is what it is. That's the cart that comes along with the horse. But I can't help but think that I hope to become a, you know, through the precepts and all the practices and all the rest of it, that I hope that I'm on a journey from point A back decades ago to now, that the practice has made a difference, and I don't know that it has. Well, you might consider that that was just an idea you had about it making a difference, and then how would you measure them anyway?

[63:33]

Because, you know, you don't have that one that happened 20 years ago to put up against this one now. This is fresh. These are fresh grass greens that are popping up here. To be curious about what it is that just popped up. I think the delusional part is when you just get blocked. You don't look. You're not seeing. You can't look at it. You're just so frustrated that you can't see through it to see what frustration is. What's the nature of it? That is an old friend. That is an old familiar feeling. Part of studying the self is studying, well, what is it that thus comes? What is that? Mara, the evil one. Yeah. Yeah. No, you I've seen you over and over and over again. I know who you are. You are myself. That's my I'm producing. This is coming this way. It's not coming this way. Yeah. And so something about putting them together, not trying to separate the parts you don't like.

[64:36]

That was kind of the old style. Yeah. of practice that you could get rid of the impurities, wipe the mirror clean, no more dusts. You know, you have this perfect, shiny, luminous jewel after you polish it. That was, that was the, you know, that's that story. And, and, and Hway Nong's biography of the, the monk who says, just keep polishing the mirror and everything will be great. And I mean, there's no mirror, there's no dust. Where's the dust going to land? There's nothing. There's just a, it's just an illusion. Yeah. So seeing the illusion doesn't mean the illusion stops happening, but you see that it's an illusion. Oh, silly me. Silly me, you know. Yes. But you may not still fall for it. It doesn't mean you don't fall for it, but that's just another moment of, oh, silly me. Yes. Yes. a slowly growing realisation through the years of practice that, yes, I don't have to take it that seriously.

[65:46]

I don't have to believe the stories. They're just stories. But when I'm in the midst of it, when I'm trying to send a flipping email to Kakuan and I can't. Well, it's his fault. Of course. I suspect a bit of debris flies across the universe and blocks their little emails and stuff. But I'm not telling myself at that point that it's, don't worry, it's just a story. Don't take it too seriously. You'd be unusual if you could do that. You've got a few more, maybe another decade or so, and that'll just be easy. Oh, okay. I'll go for that. I'll report it. Sorry, I've taken a lot of time. Thank you. No, that's wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for your very, very good question. Okay, I see Kate and Paul.

[66:47]

Oh, who? Oh, Jerry, Jerry, please. And then Kate. Let's let Kate and Paul go first. Okay. I just, in that discussion that just went by a few minutes ago, it reminded me of the Dharma talk from City Center that, Peter Coyote did a few weeks ago, and I was wondering if the group that were forming the interim group might be interested in listening to that because it is incredible how his practice influenced his life through multiple phases and multiple adversities and how he drew back on the meditation practice. And he's so eloquent in terms of using words to describe what he's feeling and what went on in his life. So it's just a thought that it's when it's unusual, what, 40 minutes or what the usual Dharma talk was.

[67:55]

We can find it on the SFZC website and we can run it online. through Zoom, I think, and share it with the group if that might be interesting. It's just moving, I think, to hear his direct experience and the way he described it. Great. Well, that would be a good thing for you all to decide when you start meeting. Let's put that one up as one of the possibilities. Yes, that's why I was just raising that possibility. That could be yours. I can try to figure out how to do that. And we'll see whether people will want to spend 40 minutes listening to Peter Coyote. So that's the. He's pretty easy to listen to. He's a professional narrator of national parks and all kinds of things. So he's got that voice. It's like whatever he says is pretty nice. So I think it might be pleasant. I didn't realize he did hundreds of movies. He was actually an actor before he became the narrator.

[69:00]

Part of his story. Yeah. Kate seems to want to. Yes, I wanted to add a comment on a completely different subject, what you were talking about, what you mentioned about Biden resigning from being a candidate for president. The thing that impresses me is that we're witnessing democracy at work. It's holding so far, and hopefully it will. And while I'm concerned about it, I go back to something Reb said about a crisis also being an opportunity. Yeah. That's very much where we are right now, just watching all this unfold. That was my thought, too, is that the Democrats now have the opportunity to put forth candidates that really can defeat Trump. Yes, that kind of would happen in Europe. It was going one way and all of a sudden went the other way.

[70:04]

It's like, oh, things can go different ways. We're not kind of locked down to military occupation yet. We still seem to have some flexibility in who gets to sign bills and do all that sort of stuff. That's the Zen story, maybe. Maybe. If you remember, in the last election, it was supposed to be a red wave or whatever it was. Just... you know, demolishing the Democrats. And it completely wound up being the opposite. Well, that's the way the pendulum goes. You know, so since we go like that, we're going, oh, how can I go? Oh, no, no, no. It's not like it's going to stay like anywhere. It's going to keep going. We still have some months to the election, and it isn't just, okay, it's done. This is how it's going to turn out. Everything is possible. Everything's possible. And either way, the bodhisattva path goes straight ahead.

[71:07]

No matter which way this goes, the bodhisattva practices do not change course. Whether the sun comes up in the west or the east, when does it come up? It comes up in the east. Even if it comes up in the west, the bodhisattva practices are... Right, straightforward. Even if the sun rises in the west, the bodhisattva has one path. Has one path. Has one way. We can feel good in that. I mean, I feel so grateful for that. I've been through a lot of these things in my lifetime. We were just talking at lunch that, you know, I was in junior high when John Kennedy was shot. You know, that was a sea change that changed the world. And, you know, I went home as a kid and my mom's standing at the ironing board, ironing, which she never did. So it was like something big must be happening here, you know. And so that was comforting for her to stand there crying and ironing. And we were like, okay.

[72:08]

So, you know, we've all been through a lot. Whenever you were born, you've been through a whole lot of these things. And we have to keep our strokes, our forward motion as individuals and together. as a sangha, big sangha, meaning big sanghas. Oh, Jerry, did you want to add your comment? And then I think maybe we'll say goodbye. Yes, Millicent, I wanted to say to you that I'm really delighted at what you're asking and reflecting on. I'm reminded of Ram Dass, who... Late in his life, someone asked him, Ram Dass, you've done all this practice. You've been to India all these years. Have you changed? Are you less neurotic? He says, oh, no, no, no. My neuroses are still there. But he says, the difference is now I schmooze with them.

[73:09]

In case you don't know, it's a Yiddish phrase. That means what we're doing today, just hanging out and talking. So what Ram Dass was saying, And in the last several years, I've experienced this with my, some work I'm doing with Tarzan Toku through the Ningema Institute in Berkeley. The anger, the frustration, all the so-called clashes, they don't go away because your heart is open and you're here. And Kaku wants to send you an email and it doesn't work. And so... We're human beings and we get angry and frustrated. And that's really not the point. Because it doesn't go away. The point is, what's your relationship to it? And that's what I think Fu was speaking to. How do we relate to these moods, emotions that arise? And I used to get very aggressive toward myself because I get angry about something.

[74:14]

Because I grew up in a household where there was a lot of anger. And I used to say to myself, well, I'm an angry man. It's not surprising. And about 40 years down the road, I realized, no, I'm not an angry man. I'm a man who gets angry. And I get angry at certain things, and that's okay. And now I've learned through recent years... The anger is still there. The anger rises. But I don't have to get so reactive to it. I don't feel so reactive. And that's changed. And I know that's changed. And friends have noticed that it's changed. So, yeah, I think the practice helps because it puts a pause. You sit on your cushion and you realize how temporary and Yeah, how temporary these things are.

[75:18]

They come and go. Are they really that important? Thank you, Millicent. Thank you, Jerry. Okay, Hope, you're going to have the last word? Please. Hope is the third last word, I must say. Oh, geez. So I discovered something recently. with the practice or a new practice and a new manifestation of the practice for me, which is like that I, you know, feel, I like feel terrible. And then I'm like, what would it be like in my body if I just experienced something different? If I just experienced joy or like if I got rid of the fear in my body and surprisingly, I've been able to like kind of do it. For like a second. I'll be like feeling bad.

[76:20]

And like ruminating. And like. Rolling along in my story. And then be like okay just embody. Joy. And then I'll do it for a second. And can't really. Hold on to it. For very long. And that made me start wondering. Like is that the thing that. I should have been doing. All along. And. all this pain or things that I've been thinking of as growing pains or as grieving or as healing, is that more of kind of the wheel turning? So there's some context, but I guess my question for you is like, how much... Pain. Is. How much suffering.

[77:22]

Is necessary. A high of 99 degrees Fahrenheit. And a low of 51 degrees. Also. Alexa. How much suffering. Is necessary. In healing. And like. Am I getting it wrong. When I feel like, oh, I'm feeling all these feelings and it hurts, but that's like what I'm supposed to do. Does this make sense? Steve. I'm new to using Zoom, if you can believe that. It is hard to believe. I know. I'm definitely... A big bit of a hermit. Or a recluse, perhaps. So my practice, I think practice is expanding compassion, understanding.

[78:29]

It has depth to it. But if you're going to go deep, if you're going to expand, if you're going to open, you're staying on the edge. And that edge... for me, always has periods of joy and fun and laughing at life. It always has that edge of challenge. And that challenge, which I'm going through a bit now, can be scary, can be painful. You know, the old tapes want to come up at judges. And I watch all of that and I say, you know, it's all okay. I don't like it necessarily. It's not, the picture that I wanted. But it's not always this way. It passes. And I am so lucky to be able to be open to this experience.

[79:30]

That's good. That's nice. Thank you. Thank you for speaking and welcome. Thank you. So Hope, I think that was for you. And I heard that and for me too. And I think that we all have probably our own version of a response to that because we're all there with you. I mean, I don't know if any of us have not known in our lives or now or this week pain or frustration or anger or any of those things. You know, that's the set that we're born with. Unless we're really odd, something's wrong with us. So there's nothing wrong with you. And that's also like the keys on the piano that you're learning to play. And how do you play? I haven't gotten a new set of keys since I was very young. Pretty much the same ones. So they're just there. And I feel like learning how to hold them. And one thing I want to end with is a thing that Grace said. Grace knows a lot about pain. She knows a lot about, I don't want this.

[80:35]

She had this terrible accident. She's very disabled. And she lives with pain all the time, physical pain, and there's been a lot of emotional pain at losing her body, her best friend, as she said. But she said, you know, it's like no matter what it is, it doesn't last. And she's learned that it doesn't last. It does pass away. And so reminding yourself of that as well is like, this isn't going to last. In fact, we can hardly remember long enough. It's already gone because we forgot, you know, and already something else is there. So part of it is just seeing that there's a duration to all of that. And, you know, and that we're just basically, you know, finding that pathway that runs through the forest, the forest of swords for a while. You know, and that's, it's a skill set. And little by little, you get a little better at moving through it and not running into all of it. So I don't know, but we can talk about this some more because this is a forever topic.

[81:37]

of how to work with our discomfort, how to work with suffering. It's one of the basic truths about life. The facts of life include suffering. It doesn't include getting rid of suffering. It includes that there is suffering. Impermanence, right? No self. So that's our assignment. And it seems like we've all agreed to sign up for the course, you know, not to run away. I appreciate that about all of you, and I appreciate that about a choice I made in my own life. I say, I'm going to do this, you know, hell or high water. I'm just going to do this. And it's, I think, was a good choice. So I wish you all the best and the time up ahead, and it will fly. I know it will, but right now it doesn't feel like it. It feels very slow and very gradual and full of lots of steps. But I hope you all do well, and I look forward to seeing you again in the fall.

[82:40]

And I send you my best wishes, and I will communicate some little photographs and so on through the trip so you can see where we're pilgrimaging out there in the beautiful world. Okay, you all take care. Many blessings. If you would like to unmute and say goodnight, you're very welcome to do that. Thank you, Phil. Happy travels and all. Thank you. you. Thank you. Thank you, everyone. See you next week. Thank you. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'll miss it. Party goes on. Safe travels. Good luck. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for helping. Good times. Yeah. Thanks.

[83:34]

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