Comprehensive Manual of Abhidharma. Is that what you said yesterday? Yeah. That's it. Tomorrow is another going to be a light day. Wasn't that quick? Isn't it funny how the first one was so far away and the second one is all of a sudden upon us? So I just wanted to remind everybody that it is coming up and... You know what you did last day off, so if that was good for you, then do the same thing. And if that moved you too far away, then do something different. I, again, would suggest staying close. If you leave the building, then do it for some kind of exercise, but don't meander about. Come right back. And take care of your gathering of of mindfulness and the continuity that you're trying to develop.

[01:06]

Don't, at this time, leak. Don't, don't, don't leak. And having to do with that is silence. So for those of you who are staying around the building, see if you can maintain some kind of contained It doesn't mean, you know, be with each other and so on, but don't do idle talk. Don't do too much idle talk. And also try during today, the day, that when you're around the kitchen and in the small kitchen and so on, especially for the rest of the morning, don't leak. And if you're trying to really do that practice of staying silent, and maintaining that, and people come up and try to engage with you, it's perfectly okay to say, I'm trying my best to practice silence, and I love you very much, but go away.

[02:08]

Don't bother me. I'm working. You know, there was somebody at Tassajara, David, It was a Tassajara, and he took on that practice. How long did he do that? I don't even remember. Yeah, that's right. The idea is not to make contact, not just to remain silent, but don't make contact. Don't brush against someone, I'm being silent. How about you? Yeah, the idea is not... Yeah? The time frame? Yeah, that's it.

[03:25]

And you really do have a chance in the morning. This is from a book, Mudra. They're poems by Trungpa, early poems by Trungpa. I was thinking of reading you about Maha'ati, which there's a... piece in here that I really like and maybe when we get a little bit farther into the text I'll read it but the one I want to read this morning is called oops where is it Wild Duck no it's called The Silent Song of Loneliness some people when they have peaks of emptiness peaks where's the duck Oh yeah, okay.

[04:33]

People have this experience in two ways. Sometimes people have an experience of emptiness and it's full, because it is that. It's everything also, you can interpret it that way, as a kind of a fullness. And some people have an experience of dry, alone desolateness. And that's scary. sometimes for people. So I thought I'd read you a little bit of... This isn't scary. Won't be scary. But this is a very, I think, rich feeling of Trungpa's way, his mind. This was written in 65, June of 65. So he had already walked out of Tibet. You know, what's happening in Tibet is beyond sadness.

[05:36]

It's just one of these horrific things that are happening. The odd thing about it is, in a way, because that's happened already in Tibet, we get the benefit of their wondrous way. It enormously has enriched the West, but at a horrible expense. horrible expense. When I was in Tibet, when I was there, I think now they've built up the monasteries a little bit, but the devastation was just really impressive. The thangkas were all chipped away from off the walls and written over, and monasteries were in ruins and, you know, of hundreds of buildings, there would just be like one building left and so on. And that's to say nothing of the people who've been so hurt by it.

[06:38]

And how they can maintain the, you know, quality of still loving, you know, understanding of what's happening from a compassionate point of view is just almost beyond me. Amazingly impressive, it seemed to me. So anyway, he walked out. The Dalai Lama left in, what, 59, I think, and many people walked out with him. It's not easy to walk over those mountains. I'll tell you a story. Yeah, I'll tell you a story. When you get really high up, the oxygen doesn't come into your body, so you can hardly walk. I'm not going to tell you the story now. I'll tell you in private.

[07:38]

This is too much. All right. Okay. This is The Silent Song of Loneliness. The one to whom peace and solitude are known forever, perfectly. You, Milarepa Longchenpa, the guru to whom all things are known, the one who shows the single truth, you I remember, I, your son, crying from an alien island. He was in Scotland. The wild duck, companionless, cries out in desolate loneliness and flies alone, wings outspread, soaring in the boundless sky. In the womb beyond the one and many, yours is the inner loneliness, and yours alone the emptiness within and everywhere around. The mountainside alone creates the clouds that change the rain, the two that never go beyond the one, so soar away, wild duck, alone.

[08:54]

Thunder resounding everywhere is only the elements at play, the four expressing the sound of silence. The hailstones triangular, the black clouds and the storms blast, are earthbound only, wild duck. So do not fall a prey to doubt, but get you gone upon your flight. The waters of the sunset lie saffron-painted, beautiful, and yet unchanging is the light and dignity of the sun. So cut the cord that joins the day and night and stretch your wings and fly, wild duck. The moon's rays spread over the ocean and heaven and earth smile. The cool and gentle breeze moves over them, but you are young and far from home, wild duck. So stretch your wings alone and travel on the path to nowhere. A sharpness is on the summer's tail. The healing breeze of summer yields to the bitter wind of wintertime.

[09:59]

If this was a signal to you, bird, then you would know the seasons not themselves, but as a turning wheel. The young deer, wandering among the summer green and pleasant ways, remembering his mother caught and killed in a trap, can yet enjoy the freedom of the empty valley and find relief and rest of mind. The lonely child who travels through the fearful waste and desolate fields and listens to their barren tune greets as an unknown and best friend the terror within her, and she sings in darkness all the sweetest songs. The lonely bird lived all his days in a place apart, yet did not know peace or the dwelling place of peace. But when the face of loneliness is known to you, then you will find the Himalayan hermitage. The jungle child sings his song, sad and alone, yet weeps for nothing, and joy is in him as he hears the flute, the peaceful wind is blowing.

[11:11]

And even so am I in the sky, dancing, riding the wild duck. And I have enough to thought about it.

[12:53]

Well, I think traditionally there are three, I think, levels of understanding. I don't remember them exactly, but the first one is listening, I think. Listening to the Dharma. You know, I don't know if I have this right at all, but anyway, the sense of it is that we need to use all the ways to actually understand. Listening is one way. Studying is another way. So we're studying intellectually. So at that level we have maybe intellectual understanding, which is useful because it's encouraging, it's clarifying. And, but then the most important thing is to have some direct experience yourself of that.

[14:01]

And, you know, it's a difference maybe, well, it directly addresses suffering. You know, until we really can let go of a sense of me, a sense of solidity and everything, we really don't, you know, and are suffering, and can't really be with anybody else. We have to pass through a real experience of not-self and not-other. One follow-up. Yeah. Well, it seems like there are these three facets of reality that we need very clearly in the process. One is around us, the other is... . [...]

[15:25]

What happened to us, it's basically connected to survival, what we need, [...] to take it out. Other ways in which . It seems like, from my own personal experience, where I've gotten to work with my own . For some people, that's right.

[16:50]

The intellect is an entranceway. Some people don't need it. but for some people it's an important... So what I put on the board is kind of in a way relevant to what we're talking about because for a couple of reasons. One is sometimes in a certain kind of way, direct experience of emptiness is a gift. It's just kind of a grace thing. If we grab after it, it seems to go further away. But they say the way some people talk about it is that you can kind of

[17:54]

Oh, it's an accident, they say it's an accident. But you can make yourself accident prone. And one of the ways of making yourself accident prone is to really thoroughly understand intellectually what we mean by emptiness and then to put it into your life and practice with that. Not thinking that anything's going to happen, but just because... Just because why? The reason why I'm stopped is because it's really a fine line between practicing and grasping after something, which is we have to be careful about. And some people have to be more careful than others about that. It's also true that there are these methods and tools and so-called practices and so on and so forth that do help in some ways.

[19:02]

So some people say that it's enough to just go and sit. Suzuki Roshi says it all the time. But what does that mean, just sit? It doesn't mean just sit there and just let everything... Well, in a certain kind of way, that is what it means. But we have to be present and being sitting. We can't be not present, being sitting, thinking that that's sitting. It's not. So in the beginning, we have to make an enormous effort to be present if we're not. So there are practices to do. So like the Vipassana people, have very, very, very clear practices. They just deeply, deeply, minutely train themselves to slow everything down massively.

[20:05]

Everything is really slowed down. And you can see all of the little minutia that make up the smallest experience. Like their walking meditation is three-quarters, half, a quarter. I don't know the fractions, but of ours, they go really slow. It took me, when I was at IMS, it took me to go from here to, you know, the Buddha Hall would take 20 minutes at least, you know, if not longer. You go really, really slowly, and then what happens is you see everything just kind of falls apart because you can see how all of the impulses and the smallest little tendencies and elements and so on and so forth, you can see how the whole thing is totally changed. There's nothing substantial there. That's one way, you know, one way. And the Tibetans have lots of ways, and in a certain kind of way through intellect, not intellectual, but analyzing.

[21:10]

They analyze a lot. They use that method. And what we do is kind of We just sit, but we also take our just sitting into our daily life. So this is what I put on the board today. So one way to do it is to, you know, and we also have koan practices, which I've done in my life a little bit. And for people like me, I don't recommend them. But what you do is you just hold, you don't intellectualize it, but you just hold an awareness, a question, or your particular koan. And in the same way, you can do that with other things, like for example, grasping. You can just hold in your mind or keep that foremost in your mind, grasping, and then every time that happens for you, every time you lean out of the present moment, every time you lean toward something,

[22:17]

up comes an awareness that that's what you're doing. And that's the neat thing about Vipassana practice, because way before you even get to the lean, you're already knowing that you're leaking. It's really minute. But anyway, you can hold grasping in mind, and then you can, by the awareness itself, which is what creates the space around the grasping, you don't, I say you don't go there. What I mean is you don't hold on. You just don't do that grasping. You watch. You settle there. And by settling there, you can see change. You can see that nothing can be held as you watch what it was that you were trying to grasp, like a relationship, like somebody. When we get into relationships, we often think that that person is going to stay just the way they were when you met them, and that's... them, that is who they are.

[23:18]

And then when they change, you know, you're surprised. You have to kind of re-relate to the person. And the same thing is true on this side. If you just stand there and wait and not buy into whatever it is that you're watching or studying or holding in the mind, you can see clearly that everything changes, this side and the other side. And you can see then that it, so-called, is not there to grasp. And you can't grasp on this side either. So just holding some idea, some concept, or something you're working with in that way is a very effective way to work deeper and deeper. And this is another way which I... think is really good. Somebody was talking to me actually once and they said they aren't blah blah blah. And they stopped themselves before they got to this word.

[24:20]

They were going to say they aren't friendly. But they didn't. They didn't say that. They were present enough to be aware that they were just about to conceptualize somebody. They acknowledged that that's what they were going to do. The precepts popped right into their mind. Well, this is actually one of the Eightfold Paths, but speech, don't do wrong speech, popped into their mind. They stopped. They didn't impute that concept, a truth. They stopped. As soon as that idea came into the mind, they stopped. They just noted that they had that concept in mind and didn't do anything with it. They didn't deny it. No, no, no, no, no. They really probably are friendly. And they didn't grab onto it. Yes, they really are not friendly. They just had the thought and stopped. Did not.

[25:22]

Did not. No. No, no, no, no. No. Right, and we're going to understand that today. I want this to be really clear. Yeah. Okay, here we go. All right. Let's say belief for starts, okay? Like I said yesterday, we are trained in the United States and probably all over the world now, you know, to... think about people who are different than we are, that they have certain inherent characteristics. So when we say, if you're living in the Balkans and you talk about a Muslim, let's say, that they are blah, blah, blah, violent or whatever it is, okay?

[26:24]

We're taught that. Now, because we're taught such a thing, those thoughts are going to come up in mind. That is not imputing substance to them. When you reify that thought and say, yeah, that's right, they are violent, and you believe what you just thought, then you're imputing substance. You see the difference? No. No. I think, if I may be so...

[27:26]

Yeah, I disagree. I actually disagree. And I think if we read... But I do want us to understand the text, and that's not what the text is saying, in my opinion. That's the difference between having a concept, which is not a problem. We have an idea of self. It's not a problem. that we believe that there is a self with inherent existence separate from everything else. That is a problem, and that's imputing existence or substantiality or reality or substance to an idea that is only a label on a bunch of characteristics that's totally fluid and empty in its essence. Well, the idea of the accomplished, okay, is that you stop at the arising of the concept and you don't impute.

[28:43]

Do not put, this is ahead of the class, okay? This is ahead, but you're going to get this tomorrow. You do not impute. The accomplished is the dependently arisen concept. without imputation. That's number twenty-something or another. Okay? That's what we're going to study. The accomplished is this. The accomplished is this without this. Without imputing. We have concepts. That's how we are in the world. Concepts arise. There's nothing wrong with concepts. Okay, go ahead. First, having the false impression of a thing is suitable,

[29:57]

That's the imputation. Yes, inherent existence, that the idea represents something that inherently exists. That is the mistake. No, no, I'm not. We label by concepts. Let's just do this for a minute, but then I want to bring the class along, otherwise it's not fair. I'm not saying the label. We label all the time. That's how we think. That's how we know something. We can't not do that. That's how we are in the world. Reifying it, imputing some inherent existence to that concept is a mistake.

[31:06]

Grasping that concept as real is a mistake. Only if you impute the truth there. I don't want to go too much with this because we're only on 17 and we'll get there tomorrow. Yes. That's how I'm talking about it. Would you say that the thought of a riot is a natural part of it? Right. Yeah. I don't know if I would use karma quite in that way, but the gist of what you're saying, I agree with. Can't hear you.

[32:18]

If it isn't coming from self, yeah, of course. Were they what? What? I don't understand your question. Yes. Yeah. Yes.

[33:25]

Yeah. I think that's true. I think that our developed, you know, it's infinitely developed. I think there, I don't know, there might be maybe three or four people who maybe really have completely no, you know, the self is really completely, the rest of us are, you know, in the, yeah. Are you happy? Are we getting to karma enough? I brought, I brought, I even brought the fox just to, just to read you the story.

[34:28]

All right, so let's, let's try to bring the whole class together, but let's be warned that tomorrow we're going to be at Parakalpita, Paratantra, and Paranaspana, and there, the day after tomorrow? Night day. Oh, okay, day after tomorrow. So could you guys go over that, both in the definitions and also in the Klubahana in your studying? So at least we have the same vocabulary to deal with. Those are in the 20s, starting with 20, I think. Yeah, 20, 21, and 22. And we'll just talk about it. We'll just have a discussion. But, you know, the bottom line is, how are you going to use it in your practice? For me, that's the bottom line. If this helps for our freedom from conceptual clinging, then I don't care how you think about it.

[35:30]

From my point of view, this is a tool. This text is a tool for our awakening. So I'm just basically interested in presenting something to you that you can use. Yeah. Although, you know, I do want to go, I want to do 17, 18, and 19. So we'll just go quickly. So from my point of view, she didn't impute anything to the idea that came up. She did go to the body. and noticed the contraction of separation, which is painful. She withdrew her involvement from the idea. She was studying the process of mind rather than the content. That turn is really important. She noted how she was creating a self by really about to believe that how she thought of the situation was right. She was used to being a person who was right.

[36:32]

And she turned her awareness toward that idea of self-image that she had and didn't cling to that idea of me. She saw there was a watcher there watching that she was not grasping a me. And then she was noticing, well, who is that? Who is the watcher? And didn't... impute substance to that, didn't grab on, let's forget imputing substance, didn't grab on to that as a me. And in doing that, you can see the whole thing is a process and keeps changing and you can, the change of, changing of the whole thing helps us to see the emptiness of the whole thing. You can say the change, or you can say the dependent co-rising of the whole thing. Dependent co-rising is a great way to study all of this stuff.

[37:33]

So that's what happened there. So let's look at 17. Thus, thought involves this transformation of consciousness. For that reason, what has thus been thought of does not exist. In other words, the way we think of things, the way human beings see things, in that way, things don't exist. It's not saying that nothing exists. They're not saying that nothing is out there. What it's saying is the way that we think it's there... is not the way things actually are, that we see apparent things. We give apparent things inherent existence. We impute inherent existence onto a process that's happening that we glom onto, we put in a box, we label characteristics, we impute separation on them.

[38:46]

In that way, things do not exist. Therefore, all that we know conceptually is basically a representation. It represents something, but it's a complete mental event. It is not the way things actually are. We see things as separate. We see things as... And ourselves, we feel ourselves to be separate, inherently existent, solid, even unchanging. And none of that is true. Yeah.

[39:59]

Although it's not wetness, it's just sensing. Just the sensing. No, I think, remember in the beginning, we did say that there can be just sensation. Physical body consciousness is a direct experience. As soon as you make it yours or label it something, or tea or whatever it is, or wetness even, Right, right. And again, that's not a problem. The problem is to think that that actually is the case. It's like the weather, you know, to say that there's a weather or even storm. You know, you keep deconstructing it to the whole thing disappears. The whole thing is just this one life, empty of parts, you know, empty of separation. It's just this one process. Life, death, same thing, no difference, you know.

[41:00]

Me, you, no difference. We come up together as one. Consciousness is not separate from its object. It doesn't exist without an object. There's no such thing. It's one event. It's kind of reassuring. Eighteen. Consciousness indeed possesses all seeds. It's transformation. He's just kind of summarizing this now. Its transformation occurs in a variety of ways, three in particular. It proceeds on the basis of mutual dependence. It's all dependently co-arisen. There is no ultimate. As a result of which, such and such thoughts are born. He just summarized what he's been trying to explain to us. Number 19 is karmic dispositions, together with the two dispositions of grasping, karmic dispositions being the habit patterns, habit energy, together with the two dispositions of grasping, which is grasping itself or grasping at other, produces another event, produces another event when the previous resultant has waned.

[42:19]

So each one of these things... is a dependent co-arising, influencing aliyah again, and aliyah influences the arising of the concepts in the way that they come up because of all of the scenes. Remember I drew you this thing in the beginning that went like this and it went back up and down, up and down? So aliyah is influencing the way we perceive things, the way we perceive things and create a self, goes back into our... consciousness, and so on and so forth, back and forth and back and forth, when we have, what? Okay. Well, I'm done. What? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[43:20]

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Grasping, you know, remember that thing that we studied that we didn't know, this volition thing that we didn't quite understand because it wasn't really conscious there, it's just a tendency of mind? This tendency of mind... is what grasping is coming from. Our mind has a tendency to grasp because it wants to, it's reaching, we are reaching for ground all the time. The mind is trying, it's our survival mechanism, it's trying to help us understand what is basically threatening. And interestingly enough, what happens is it creates, as it creates self and other, in order to know whether this other thing is threatening or not, it feels threatened anyway by what's separate from it. It's kind of ironic. You know, it's kind of ironic.

[44:22]

We need that separation to know what is happening out there, apparently, our best guess of what's happening out there. I'm running it through all of our, you know, past experiences with the closest thing that we know of whatever that was. And yet that very process, which... separates us from life itself, you know, we feel basically inside we're really threatened and nervous by the very fact of separation. I find it really interesting. Anyway, that tendency of mind to grasp is just a tendency of consciousness. It's inherent in every... consciousness that arises is this tendency to grasp and that is the beginning. That is the beginning of the reification of self and other. The grasping of the separation really makes it really solid.

[45:24]

I think it's the nature because it comes up. It's one of the mental factors that comes up with every consciousness event. This is the air. Yeah. No, it isn't. A karmic event traditionally is volitional. It's volitional activity. You're using karma in the kind of pop Buddhist way. You know, that karma is just everything that happens to you is karma. The word karma just means activity. And karma, in the sense of Buddhist, our understanding is it's volitional activity. Like in the 12-fold chain, it's based on ignorance, which is the ignoring of the true way that we exist, which is not separate.

[46:35]

So the karmic event is based on separation. It's based on self. That influences consciousness. What? I think we have to remember this stuff is not exactly linear. You know, these things are happening all the time with billions of events are happening to us all the time. So it's not like, you know, it's... Well, because I think that it's pointing to dependent co-rising. You know, it's all dependently co-risen. So it does, everything depends on something that happened just before it.

[47:40]

So we do have this event. We do have seeds. We do have this transformation. We do have this whole process, which is mutually dependent means dependently co-risen. And as a result of that process, thoughts, these kinds of thoughts are born. Thoughts of separation and solidification of self and other are born. Okay. It happens in the way the previous verses explain it. It happens in that way. It transforms in the way he's been talking about. Do you understand? Okay.

[48:42]

When it wanes, the way I'm saying it more is that all of the seeds that are there are actually water. It's not necessary for that seed to arise, but the wanes are like some seed. And when that goes away, depending on how it's at, you either water it again. or don't you want something else? I think that explains this, I think, really well, for those of you who have that book. So if you have these things, like habit energy, and at some point, the fact that you're self-watering,

[49:54]

No, it's there, even in delusion. How can you tell when you're active? You can tell. You can tell. You pay real close attention. You can tell. First of all, see, now this is what I want you guys to do. On your day off. On your light date. You take this, the business about really notice when a concept comes up. Really notice when you're feeling contracted and the difference between how you respond that way and what kind of awareness that is than when you don't and you're just being.

[51:03]

You won't even notice because you won't feel that separation. You're just being in life. It's a completely different, and we all know, just now notice. Notice the difference and then come and we'll talk about it. What? Ask me anything. When you walk around the world, you learn not to touch fire and what you learn. And they are habits. How do you tell which formation you have? I mean, other than, you said, the feeling of separation. I mean, the first thing you've accomplished, you've accomplished one.

[52:04]

It's still going to work fire. You know, this is interesting. Mel, yeah, I asked Mel specifically about that, and he said exactly, not based on a sense of self, it won't be karma, but he also said that that's, you know, kind of theoretical in a certain kind of way, because he didn't even want to, in a certain kind of way, in a way, talk about that level of being, I think. But am I not... Understanding what you're saying. Again. I hate my narrative. I just want to say one thing. The interesting thing about this is that it seems to me like when we had, I think it was last class or two classes ago, when I felt like there was a sense of not believing that you can actually be and act in the world without

[53:14]

a sense of self, let's say, without a sense of self. I don't know how to... I don't know exactly how to address that except to say, just keep going. I mean... It's easier to be in the world without a sense of self, without self-reflecting all the time. It's way easier to be in the world without all the time having to think about how you're affecting somebody, whether they like you, is it going to be okay? To come from a place of not self does not mean that you are a vegetable. It doesn't mean that you don't have discrimination. It's just that discrimination is not based on self, on preferences in a certain kind of way.

[54:19]

It's based on awareness, but it's not based on self. So it's clearer. The world is clearer that way. It's not so clear. Remember... The sixth consciousness is discrimination. It's discrimination without manas. What? Well, just that I think that where I might get caught, I don't want to be a vegetable, right? Yeah. And I have the idea of, like, the enlightened one comes only from a place that, like, those don't. And then there's me caught in the loop, completely caught in the loop. I don't think there's, oh, maybe I'm asking, is it really that distinct or as we practice? There, I just read the other day, I think I read, it was by the Dalai Lama, that for some people, awakening in a way does happen that way, but for most of us, it's a gradual releasing of self.

[55:30]

Maybe that's what people get caught on when they think about, oh, how can I go through the world? Well, look at what Dogen says. Dogen says to study the self is to forget the self. The more you study, the more as you study, we study the superficial things first, the gross things. And as you study and are clear about those, those are forgotten. And then you go to a deeper level of identification of self. And as you do that, those are forgotten and so on. To be awake is to be awake about delusion. We study delusion. We study delusion. Yeah. Yeah, include, include, include. Awareness is, like Dalai Lama says all the time, awareness can be endlessly expanding.

[56:37]

And that's what happens. Our awareness is like this, when we're selfing, when we're selfing is a good way to think about it, selfing, okay, as a verb. When we're selfing, our awareness is like this constricted, tight, painful experience. And as we release the selfing part, you know, the selfing business, the more we release, the wider and wider and wider awareness, the awareness is, you know, big anyway, but we release more and more into that awareness. It's a question of releasing, relaxing, releasing. Well, for some people, they have sudden awakenings and those are Kensho experiences, but they have those things have to be put into and embodied. in their day-to-day life, otherwise they're meaningless.

[57:38]

So, for example, if a person who has a Kensho experience and knows the self, let's say, is completely not there, then when their self comes up, that's what they renounce. They renounce the barrier. They renounce grabbing onto the, acting from and believing in his self. It has to be digested and lived, otherwise it doesn't mean anything. That's why it takes so long. You have to do that work. Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait.

[58:49]

Okay, just a second. Let Blanche and then you can come. Okay. Conventional designation, we have to remember that. The relativity. That there's a kind of universality. Wait, wait, [...] wait. Take it easy. Wait, wait, wait. Andy, would you like to respond to Barnaby? Oh, I'm sorry. I don't mean in a sense, but yes, the measurement itself, but the measurement itself, if one person weighs something, describes it as a pound, another person directly weighs another object, describes it as a pound, and put them both in hand.

[60:12]

Andy. Wait, wait, wait. Go ahead. I want to say colors. They're not see red. Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[61:12]

Let's not have a cross. Let's not do that. Let's just get everybody's points of view out there. Okay, we're going to have lots of talks over the light day, I can tell. Wait, who was first? You were first. Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, Barnaby, Barnaby, just a second, hold on, hold on. Monica?

[62:19]

But the idea of there being this vibration is not a lot of weight, but still has defined it. Right, or something being, you know, you're able to Okay, that's a point. Go ahead, Kathleen. Could everybody please speak louder so everybody can be included?

[63:41]

Excellent point. Kofi? Do you speak louder? Mm-hmm. [...] Josh?

[64:56]

Josh? Josh? Were you done, Kofi? Thank you. You look great in glasses. I like that. I like that look. Hold on a second, Barnaby, are you listening or are you writing your... Okay. Okay, okay, go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry, what?

[66:00]

I don't think, it seems to me, we don't always have super concerned about whether any of the scholars have to learn it. And that's what I learned. Science is you've got to let go of everything. What's really the most important process of learning process is what you discover and not worry so much. This is so interesting. I think we should have a debate the day after tomorrow. Craig? For me personally, language is an incredibly useful tool to describe an experience that I've had, and you have another person who has had a similar or same experience to understand what I have experienced, or how.

[67:10]

The color of red is never red. It's frequency or whatever it happens to me. And when I say red, it's just a finger pointing to me. It's just describing an experience that I've had with somebody else who has had the same experience. Now, I can never describe an experience I've had with somebody who has not had that experience. Have them understand the experience that I've had, or never have it. Paul? Yeah? Anybody else? Yes? Okay. Uh-huh. Another point of view.

[68:18]

Blanche. There's something different about... I don't even know how to describe it. Well, delusion.

[69:22]

You know, we're trying to wake up about delusion. Victor? I don't really understand what you're saying. on their own side, or on their own power without the right from some sort of mental action. It may have to perception on the power of a foot that there is somehow or desiccated phenomena with a sense of additional solidity that they don't possess from their own side and on the basis of relating to objects with that distortion that generates I don't think that I understand it.

[70:30]

But I understand it. Yeah, that's true. I think that clearly can show that means any description that we have done. My point really was that the fundamental is the appearance of solidity that So I'd like to stop there, because that's what we'll mean by substance imputing, substance, solidity.

[71:39]

But I want to stop, and what I'd like to say is this, okay? Every, I would hope, in this room is feeling in some degree or other a self. We're feeling it because of we are either interested in what we're talking about or not interested in what we're talking about. We're saying it's just a good thing or it's not a good thing. I feel such and such and such and such about my participation or such and such and such and such about not participation. And so on and so on and so on. So for our study, the important thing is to turn the light toward that. If we don't do that, all the talk is flowers in the sky. Okay?

[72:42]

So when you have your light day, which you're not beginning until later. In the meantime, you're going back to the Zendo, in which I hope that you feel what has actually arisen in you from this discussion, and that's what you study. Where are you grasping there? Are you grasping some idea of self, or are you grasping some idea of other? And if so, what does that feel like? And can you have some space, which is awareness, around that? And can you see that you can let it go? And what does that feel like? And so on and so on and so forth. That's our study. Through all of whatever arises. That's what we're concerned about. So the day after tomorrow, we're going to do that.

[73:44]

The fox? Yes. All right. OK. Ready?

[74:02]

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