a nice day in Hillsburg. I hope it's a nice day where you are. We have amazing weather here. I'm still not quite used to it. I've spent most of the last several decades in a very, very foggy climate on the coast. And it's kind of amazing to be someplace that's warm. So I'm appreciating that. So This evening, our conversation is about a lecture in Zen My Beginner's Mind. It's on page 86, for those of you who have your books, and it's called Communication. So the sentence that follows the lecture's title says, Without any intentional or fancy way of adjusting yourself, to express yourself as you are is the most important thing. Without any intentional or fancy way of adjusting yourself, To express yourself as you are is the most important thing. This is Suzuki Roshi.

[01:12]

So this teaching is a lot like the one that we talked about last week, in which Suzuki Roshi is also encouraging us not to look for some fancy trick or some practice formula, some technique that will end our suffering. But rather we need to understand on the very deepest level that we are never separate, from what is happening right now, and that our wishing for things to be different than they are is the cause of our suffering. This is kind of a hard thing for us. You know, it's not so obvious. And I think it does take some study and it takes some practice, some actual experience of not being separate from everything that's happening to realize that there's nothing outside and that whatever's going on is something that we can actually meet and work with. And so that's what he's been talking about both last week and this week, too. So that there is no cause of suffering from the outside, from the outside of ourselves, that there is only connection or what in Buddhism is called dependent core rising, that everything arises dependent on everything else.

[02:26]

You know, if you look around where you are right now, everything you are is a result of everything around you and everything that came before this moment in time and all of the objects around you. dependent on everything that happened before this moment in time. So then all together now, here we are in the present moment, but the present moment is basically the outcome of all of those present moments that have gone before, right? Starting way back as far as we can imagine, something I think they're still calling the Big Bang, right? So the Big Bang, and here we are. So in Buddhism, this teaching is also called emptiness. The pentacle arising and emptiness are pretty much the same thing. Our practice can bring about a profound realization of the emptiness of separation. Emptiness means empty of any separation, of any separate own being. In fact, the phrase usually is used, not just the word emptiness, which we tend to think of as there's nothing, like the cup is empty, means there's nothing.

[03:32]

But the cup... is empty of any own being. So empty of own being, O-W-N, of own being, means that it doesn't exist by itself. It comes into existence by all of these factors that go into making a cup. So I think you could all name them. If you took a minute, you know, there's clay and water and fire and potter and there's a shopkeeper and then there's somebody who bought the cup and so on and so on and so on. So this is true of every object in our lives, and it's true of ourselves. We are dependently co-arisen, meaning we are empty of any own being, of any separateness. So it's our practice that can bring about a profound realization of that emptiness of separation, because the connection is already happening. That's all there is. So one reason it's easy to have an experience of that is because that's all we experience. We always experience connection, whether we think of it or not.

[04:34]

Our experience of the world is connection. Our eyes are connected to the light, our ears to the sounds of the world, our tongues to the tastes of the world, our noses to the smells of the world, our skin to the textures of the world, and so on. And our minds to whatever it is we think about the world. Never separate. So because we're already connected, we already have... this deep well of experience of joy and suffering of the world. And we also contribute to the joy and suffering of the world. And we're not just standing outside as experiencers. We are also contributing to the experience of others. So that's why Suzuki Roshi says it's so important to express ourselves just like we are. And by doing so, not only can we see... But our teachers and our companions, our friends, can also see whether or not our understanding of reality is correct. You know, it's about non-separation and non-blaming.

[05:39]

Or is it about blaming? And is it about, you know, why me? That kind of thinking, which we all do at times. But that's a good sign. And when we express ourselves, why me? Then our friends can tell, like, oh, you're feeling separate. You're feeling... You're feeling like you don't have a piece of this. You're not part of this. So we're kind of like physicians, all of us. And you're reading the symptoms for each other. And a sincere wish to be of support or to be of help in any way we can. So, you know, we can gently and kindly offer to help toward an ever better understanding than the one we already have. And that's what the teachings are. They're trying to help us to a better understanding than the ones we already have. You know, to me, it reminds me of sort of like an experience of open water sailing or open water. I used to do open water rowing in a skull, which is kind of a wonderful thing to be out on the water. And to know that I was completely dependent on the conditions of the water, of the wind, of what weather system was coming in, of the tides.

[06:54]

I used to go out every day at the same time. And then one day I went out into the bay and I looked down where I usually would row and there was all of this grass. And I thought, where did this grass come from? And then I realized I'd gotten into very shallow water because the tide was out. Who knew? So then I kind of backed up really quickly and I went back to the boathouse. They explained to me, you know, you need to know about the tide. You need to understand that sometimes the water is deeper, sometimes it's more shallow. And I said, well, what do I do if I get stuck out there in the mud? And they said, well, you wait. You wait until the tide comes back in again. I said, oh. He said, whatever you do, don't get out of the boat. Don't get into the mud. You know, it's pretty bottomless there. So this is the way we're taught. This is how we learn. by these kinds of mistakes we make of not knowing the way that things change and being in alignment with conditions as they change. You know, being in alignment with the sail and the wind and with the land and the water, these relationships to one thing, of one thing to another, and of the sailors and their relationship to each other and to the ship and so on.

[08:05]

So there are lots of metaphors for how this all works together. So in the correct vision of reality, Everything is connected. Everything is changing. And the boat ride that we are taking will never happen again. As one of my teachers said long ago, it's a non-repeating universe. You know, just this one time. Something we also say in the tea ceremony, for those of you who have joined Mayor Wender here or Green Gulch and having a cup of tea, there's a very classic Zen and tea saying that, you know, just this one. time just this one time it will never come back again so enjoy it to the fullest you know enjoy that sip of green tea and the smell of the incense and the company of these friends we will never be together in this way again which is true of us right now you know this will never happen again so to savor each moment is is maybe the secret to uh human human success if there's

[09:10]

possibility of success. It might be that. So, thinking about the universe, the non-repeating universe, I wanted to share with you that I'm reading a second book by one of my favorite science writers. I want to thank Lisa for suggesting that I read this first one. The man who wrote it is an Italian theoretical physicist by the name of Carlo Rovelli, R-O-V-E-L-I. L-L-I, R-O-V-E-L-I. So the first book that I devoured of his was on quantum physics, which, of course, I had no idea. I couldn't understand. But he is a wonderful writer, and he was so accessible. You know, these very deeply mathematical and physics, quantum physics, I mean, really. But he really could help put it into language that I was able to follow for the most part. And the book was called Helgoland. H-E-L-G-O-L-A-N-D. Wonderful, wonderful book.

[10:10]

In which, toward the end of the book, he praises our Zen ancestor, Nagarjuna, for his insights into reality, the ever-changing universe. And that's just one reason Lisa thought to share it with me. He said, you know, he talks about Nagarjuna. And I went, oh my God. So sure enough, there it is about... a third of the way or half the way in, he says that while he's talking about all these theoretical quantum physics understandings, his students, many of them over time, came up to him and said, have you read Nagarjuna? He said, finally, he thought, I think I should read Nagarjuna. And so he did. He was very impressed and he wrote some wonderful insights about his reading of Nagarjuna that I appreciated very much. So the book I'm reading now, that I'm just beginning to slowly digest, is called The Order of Time. And again, this is about the universe and our perception of things, things as they is or things as they are.

[11:10]

So in this latest expose about reality, as is currently understood by our modern physicist, there is no time. There is no time. It's a construct. It's a human construct. There's no past or future. If you look into a glass of water and watch the molecules all spinning around, there's no past and future. There's just swirl. There's just change, continual change. And so, basically, he said that not only is there no time, but then he also makes a case very well and disturbingly that there's also no place. There's no time or place the way we think of it. And there are no permanent substances like oceans and mountains and persons. There's only... change. Everything is changing. This is the very Buddhist part of this. And there are only relationships. What we see appearing is a relationship of one element, one set of elements to other elements. When they meet each other, things appear temporarily.

[12:14]

Never to be repeated. This particular thing will not come again. There are only relationships. There is only change. And he goes on to say that the flow of time and the appearance of substances are better understood from the structure of our brain and our emotions than from the study of the physical universe. So this is physicists, you know, who's saying, learn how you think. Learn how you see the world. Study your own feelings. If you want to know the world, you need to start here. which is very much in keeping with the very famous statement by our Zen ancestor, Dogen Zenji, who said, to study the Buddha way is to study the self. To study the self. So this is the same point that Ravelli is making. In order to study what we call the universe, what we call cats, what we call mountains, what we call humans, we need to study how the mind works. And how it is we come to call things anything at all.

[13:17]

You know, where does language come from? And so on. So we don't want to get, I think part of the idea is we get unstuck by our conceptualizations about our truths. You know, that we think we know, that truthiness. We think we know what's happening. We know this is this and that's that. And I call that whatever you call it that. And we argue and so on and so forth. To back away from that, those assurances. And be much more deeply curious. about what's going on here. I think curiosity is one of the primary tools of Buddhist practices. The Buddha was very curious about himself and about suffering and about how to bring an end to suffering, which he found. And that's why we have these teachings. He found something quite wonderful. So the whole thing is pretty wild. You know, Zen is wild. Quantum physics is wild. And once we start expressing ourselves fully, we too become kind of wild. And hopefully it's in the best possible way.

[14:18]

So Ravelli's language is the kind of language that Suzuki Roshi is talking about in this lecture on communication, in which he says, to understand your teacher's words or your teacher's language is to understand your teacher themself. And when you understand them, you find that their language is not just ordinary language, but language in its wider sense. You understand more than what their words are actually saying. It's underneath the words. There's some deep understanding that isn't the words themselves. He then talks about how this understanding is connected to our own subjective intention or situation. Again, study the Buddha way, study the soul. subjective means me, I'm the subject. What's my intention when I look at the world or when I look at another human? What am I up to? And what kind of situation am I in? What's being called on? You know, everything is connected. And yet, as we come to understand what our teacher is saying and who they are, we discover who we are as well.

[15:27]

And we understand, Suzuki Roshi says, the ultimate fact. And the ultimate fact which he says does not mean that there's something eternal or something that's constant, but rather the ultimate fact is that things as they are in each moment. That's the ultimate fact. Things as they are in each moment. So the ultimate fact is the fact that's happening right now. And right now. And right now. And I could keep saying that. The ultimate fact is things as they are in each moment. So each timeless moment is complete. Each moment is complete. Did it start? Did it end? It's hard to say. Suzuki Roshi says we can call this our being or our reality. So coming to understand reality as a direct experience is the reason that we practice Zen and the reason that we study Zen.

[16:32]

Buddhism. Studying Buddhism helps us to understand that we don't understand. We're supposed to understand, right? I think all of us went to school for a while anyway, and part of what school taught us to think is that you're supposed to understand. You're going to have a test at the end of this class, and you should understand, or you're going to get a bad grade. Right? So, I think a lot of us tried to get very good grades and tried to understand what they were telling us, whether we understood it or not. But to continue the inquiry past that point where, do you really understand? Is this really clear to you? Do you really know what happened during the Civil War or the War of Independence or any war whatsoever that's going on now? Do you understand? Do I understand? Can we understand? So, What we really don't understand is reality. And we also don't understand our human intellect and the truth that is present in each moment's activity.

[17:34]

We don't understand, and there's no shame in that. I think there's a story you probably have all heard, some of you are new, maybe not, that when Bodhidharma, who's a Zen ancestor, a Buddhist ancestor, who came from India, bringing the Buddhist teaching to China, he met with the Emperor of China. And the emperor was a devout Buddhist. And so he said to Bodhidharma, he's very happy to meet an authentic Indian teacher, Buddhist teacher. And so he said to the Buddhist teacher, what is the highest meaning of the holy truths, the four noble truths, you know, kind of foundational Buddhist teaching. And Bodhidharma said, vast emptiness, nothing holy. Vast emptiness, everything's connected. You can't pull out holy from everything, right? Vast emptiness, nothing holy. The emperor was surprised, to say the least, and didn't understand what Bodhidharma meant. So then he said to him, who are you facing me? And Bodhidharma said, don't know.

[18:36]

He wasn't fooling around. He really didn't know. And if someone were to ask you, who are you facing me? That's kind of a good answer. Don't know. What could I tell you? I could tell you where I went to school and what name my parents gave me and something about how many years I'm assigned by spinning around on the earth and all of that. I could say things like that, but is that who I am? Who are you facing me? Don't know. We don't know. It's an honorable response. It's not a failure. To not know. It's actually a good thing. Because then we can continue to be curious, you know, continue to study the self that we don't know. So the good news is that when we practice what we call Zen activity, through the timeless activity of silent sitting, of meditation, we can experience reality directly. And we can understand the true meaning in our teacher's words.

[19:38]

Suzuki Roshi then talks about the behavior of our teachers as another way that they are expressing themselves. He says that Zen emphasizes our demeanor or our behavior, which should always be a kind of natural expression of ourself, of our true self. When we express ourselves naturally, we communicate in such a way that the listener can understand us more easily. He goes on to say that the listener also should be natural in the way that they listen. Natural means to give up our subjective opinions and our preconceived ideas and just listen. Not so easy, to just listen. And while we listen, we look closely at how the person behaves, and they look closely at us. And yet there's very little emphasis in our practice of speaking and listening that has to do with ideas of right and wrong. Again, this is Suzuki Rashi Say. There's very little emphasis in our practice of speaking and listening that has to do with ideas of right and wrong or good and bad, which is very challenging for us, as we all know, especially right now as our nation is about to hold a presidential election that I think all of us have very big feelings about, feelings of right and wrong.

[21:01]

And as nations, we also are in the process of watching as those we allies are engaging in rather violent warfare with one another. How can we listen? How can we listen with openness? How can we hear? How can we not just bring our own opinions to whatever it is that people are saying? Very hard, very hard to do that. But when we're able to listen without judgment, we are no longer simply hearing some echo of ourselves and our own opinions. And in this way, we hear the spirit that's underlying what the person has to say. One time I was looking up the word meaning, like, what do you mean? What do you mean by that? And I looked up the word meaning, and one of the words that meaning derives from is the word to moan, to moan. I thought, oh, that goes way back, you know, to our suffering. What are you moaning? What's your pain? What's hurting you, you know? That's what most matters to us, not what you mean.

[22:02]

What did you mean by what you said? You know, blah, blah, blah. But what are you moaning? What's hurting you? We care about that. So whether it's our partner or our neighbors, our colleagues, our teachers, our friends, we're challenged to listen. And then, like that sailor on the open sea, to determine how best to manage the ever-changing connection between the sails and the wind, between ourselves and our friends. Roshi goes on to use the examples of parents with their children and teachers with their students who, although having good intentions, often express themselves in a one-sided way that is not free or realistic. And all of you who've been parents can resonate with that, I'm sure. I can remember reading as a new parent this sentence in a parenting book that helped me a great deal with my own daughter and also over the years with the students, various times when I was having some difficulty understanding them. The sentence was, you always love the child, but you may not like the behavior.

[23:06]

You always love the child, but you may not like the behavior. So when our minds are filled with preconceived distortions or ideas and preferences, we are not open to seeing things as they are. We are not open to the multiplicity of reality. Roshi says that this is why we practice zazen, to clear our mind of what is related to something else. You're always connecting to something else's triggers, right? And then pretty soon we're off and running. Oh, that reminds me of that. And I'm reminding that, you know, it's very hard to just sit quiet and still that for all of you who sat together and many of you have, it's very hard to do that without just starting to free associate. Okay. You would just come back to simple, simple action of your breath or the simple presence in the room. It's not so easy. So. That's something that our mind is trying to relate to is usually something we think is outside of our experience in the present moment.

[24:11]

It's not. It is our experience of the present moment to be thinking about the past or planning for the future. What are you doing right now? I'm planning for the future. Well, that's the present. If you're dreaming of the past, you're doing that in the present. But we actually think, oh, somehow I'm in the past, or I'm in the past, or I'm about the future. But no, you're always in the present. No way out. You're always in the present. What are you doing there? What are you doing? So these teachings are quite difficult to practice. And even though they are wise and compassionate, in this point in the talk that Suzuki Roshi says, without any intentional intention, or fancy way of adjusting yourself, to express yourself freely as you are, is the most important thing to make yourself happy and to make others happy. Without any intentional or fancy way of adjusting yourself, just to express yourself freely as you are, is the most important thing to make yourself happy and to make others happy.

[25:14]

So the easiest way to express ourselves as we are is by being faithful, to ourselves, being faithful to our feelings and to our behavior that's based on those feelings. For example, he says, you can say, I'm not feeling too well, but then you don't add, and it's your fault. Or he says, it's enough to say, I'm sorry that I'm angry with you. You don't have to say you're not angry when you are, but saying that you're angry is enough. I can really remember vividly a time when my daughter was in the bathtub and I was late for work. And so I said to her, Sabrina, sweetie, you need to get out of the tub. And she just looked at me and she splashed the water and then she kind of gave me that look like, I dare you. I dare you. So I said, honey, you've got to get out of the tub. Well, a couple of weeks before that, my therapist said to me, I talked about my daughter quite a lot with him.

[26:16]

You have to tell her how you feel. You have to show her how you're feeling. You can't just keep going, sweetie. That's not going to be a very healthy outcome for you or the child. So I thought, hmm, okay, I got to show her how I feel. So I said, Sabrina, I'm starting to get angry with you. She got a little more interesting in what I was saying. And so I grabbed a towel and I threw it on the ground. And she said, you can't do that. And I said, oh, yes, I can. And I took another towel and I threw it on the ground. And then she got up out of the tub, took a towel and threw it on the ground. And at that point, we were both laughing. And I thought, yeah, I got to tell her how I feel. You know, it didn't always go quite that well. And it didn't always end up in laughter. But I did learn over time to tell her how I felt. And I felt as a result of that, like I was much realer. as a parent and as a person for her and to her than I was being by just trying to be nice, you know, nice mommy.

[27:22]

Nice mommy is not nice mommy, right? It's dishonest. So, true communication, as Roshi said in this talk, depends upon our being straightforward with one another. He says that Zen teachers are straightforward, and that's why when their students don't understand what they're saying, they resort... to hitting them with a whisk. We talked about that earlier on, the whisk in the face when we were studying the transmission of light. It was very usual in many of the chapters of enlightenment experiences of a student with a teacher that the student would be going on and on about some abstract idea, about the answer to some koan or whatever, and the teacher would just reach over with his whisk and tap the student. in the face with this horsetail whisk. You know, some of you have seen the Zen whisk. I have one on the wall over here. It's just a horsetail on a stick. And so the teacher would tap the student. And quite often after that, the student would wake up. You know, it's like, whoa. Oh, hello. Who are you?

[28:23]

And who am I? And what are we doing? You know, what are we doing here? And then they would often have a good laugh too. When you wake up, it's often quite funny. And also they would chase them around the room with the staff. That was another common practice of these old Zen masters, to chase the students around the room. You dreg slurping bums, get out of here. And they'd chase them all around. And then he says, Roshi says, but this is not really Zen. That behavior is not really Zen. He says, Zen is best communicated by sitting without saying anything at all. And then you will have the full meaning of Zen. He said, if I use my staff on you until I lost myself or until you die, still it will not be enough. The best way is just to sit. So that's what I wanted to offer about this talk of Suzuki Roshi. And now I'm going to come on to Gallery View with you and ask you if you would like to share some of your own thoughts, if you have some.

[29:28]

We would love to hear them about this chapter or anything else that's on your mind. And, oh, I wanted to welcome some folks that I haven't yet met. So let's see who's new. Oh, I think a lot of you are the old timers. Wonderful. Musha's back. Thank you. Nice to see you. Hi, Carol. Carol Shannon's here. Welcome. Cynthia's returned. Hello, Cynthia. Nice to see you. Adrian's come back. Welcome. Genshin. I'm not sure I know your attention, but welcome. Maria Stockton, welcome. And Carolyn Val, welcome. Welcome. Right down the hall here. And hi, Tom. Good to see you as well. So there's a hand from the Vermont Inside Meditation Center. Please. Where'd you go?

[30:30]

Okay? It's me, Drew. Hi, Drew. There you are. You moved down. Hi, Drew. How are you doing? Pretty good. How about you? All right. I missed some of the other classes. I kept looking, and I didn't see any notice that this was starting. Well, I'm sorry for that. We tried to communicate, and I know there were some glitches, but welcome back. It's only been a couple times we've been together again. All right. Well, this is a timely topic, and the image I have is... You know, if you're using a chainsaw cutting wood and the both sides go in. Oh, yeah. Re and G. It's stuck. With Rovelli's book on time, you know, there is no time. But then he says time passes slower in the higher altitudes and you can measure it. Right. How can there be no time? Right. You know, the thing, if you're going really fast, you age slower because time passes slower.

[31:37]

Well, if there's no time, what are we talking about here? Yeah, yeah. I just came from a study group. We're reading about the Buddhist discourses on nirvana from the Pali Canon. Same thing. And the question is, you talk about oneness. And not two. And then you use the term connected. To be connected, you got to be two. Exactly. And that just, it's just stuff we read in the Pali Canon and it was just, it's like I feel pinched. Yeah. I don't know where to go with that because except to, well, that's the two truths. And somehow that doesn't, It's not satisfying. I'm still in a quandary of when you say, you know, I don't know.

[32:38]

It's a puzzler that I just can't come to resolution with. Yeah. I think you're not alone. I think that's the whole of the Buddhist... practice sangha. I said, huh? What is going on here? Another thing I remember hearing was Mr. Einstein saying, the universe doesn't really exist. It's just very persistent. Yeah. So it's the same kind of idea. It's like there's something here, but what is the something? As soon as you start looking into it, as Ravelli's doing in his book... Like the glass of water looks solid. It looks like water pours, but then if you heat it up, it disappears, and if you freeze it, it turns solid, and if you look at it at the subatomic distance, it's nothing there. The water isn't one of those things that we, from our perspective, point of view...

[33:41]

It appears to be at various different distances and so on. So it's like it depends on the situation. It's kind of situational truth. It's not like one universe and one truth. It's like how is it for you right now where you are? And I think that's where we can actually work with things like the two truths because we have no choice but to deal with the relative truth or common sense. We have to do that. Others, you walk into walls, you know. Well, there's just atoms there. There's nothing really, you know, stopping me. And then you can smash into the wall. But like your chainsaw, it's going to get stuck. You're going to get hurt, right? So we have to obey the laws of relative reality, relativity, you know. And at the same time... These physicists are blowing their own laws up. They're going like, well, that was nice, but it's really, you know, only partially. So you look a little bit more, and those laws don't hold. So it's kind of like allowing things to be temporarily so.

[34:43]

You know, temporarily. You're here temporarily. I'm here temporarily. Am I real? because I'm temporary and because I'm made up of atoms and because these are just neurons that have somehow learned how to talk. I mean, the whole thing is so beyond belief. As soon as you begin to study deeply anything, you're left with vacancies where understanding used to be. So I don't think you're wrong. I just think you have to work with both of those things. You know, as a human being, you're just going to have to deal with having a body and hands and a mind and words and then kind of studying the fact that those are illusions. This is illusory. The Buddha's great understanding was, this is an illusion. I'm dreaming. And it's kind of a, sometimes it's a sad illusion and sometimes it's a joyful illusion. But when we make a big deal out of it, like of ourselves or of our illusory thoughts, like what's that?

[35:51]

I don't like that or I do like that. We create all kinds of discourse and disturbance and vision, you know. So I don't think anyone is going to be able to comfort you with some other, you know, something that doesn't put your two pieces of wood into a tight space. I think you're going to have to stay there. while you work out, you know, what do I do now? You're not going to stay there for the rest of your life, right? I hope not. I'm going to get another chainsaw from the bottom or something. I assume the answer to my query is not an intellectual figuring out. I think that's good. That's good. There's an experience that it's like you move from... When you believe in Santa Claus, wholeheartedly, a whole lot of questions can come out. Where does he get all the materials? Is there Mrs. Claus? I mean, you can go on and on.

[36:52]

But then when you don't believe in Santa Claus anymore, those questions aren't relevant. But you can still participate in everything dispassionately. Yeah. You can put up a tree and get some gifts for your parents and for your children. You know, which we do. Right? We kind of meet people where they are. With kindness and with, you know, love. The Dalai Lama said, my religion is kindness. You know, not intellectual understanding. Even though that's important, I think we should have intellectual understanding and not just swallow things because someone told us so. But I think really, like you said, it's about feelings. It's about emotions. It's about caring. And our intellect shouldn't block that. That shouldn't be where the chainsaw is stuck, is around your heart, you know? Thanks.

[37:57]

Yeah, you're welcome. Musho. Hello. Welcome. You're muted, Mushu. Okay, how's that? Really enjoying this group, and I, you know, I belong to the village of Zendo, and I have my own group here in Catskill, but we come from my Zumi Roshi's line, so we never really study Suzuki Roshi's stuff, and I'm really glad to be able to. I was thinking about this chapter and what you were saying and I was thinking about the idea of being straightforward and being yourself and it's not that easy and I think he admits that in the book that it's a practice actually to be yourself and I belong to this I'm a musician and I belong to this group we get together and it's a listening club we listen to each other's music projects

[39:08]

as recordings, and we talk about them. But we also have this, what's the ritual that has appeared as we talk about our pieces before we play them. And some people talk a really long time about what we're about to hear. And I was thinking last night, it's tedious, like I was listening to someone talk and I was thinking, you know, just get to it, let's hear the music. But actually, it's about listening. And the time that those people were taking to express themselves to the group was important to them. But the fun thing about the whole group is when they actually play their music, it's the true self. It's their real love. It's their compassion. It's their passion. It's how they want to express themselves. And it's really beautiful, like no matter what they said. Do you know what I mean? Like we come up with things about ourselves that we want people to know. That's just natural, I feel.

[40:11]

And when it comes down to making your art or doing your job, it comes out more fully. More fully than the words, I guess I'm saying. Do you know what I'm talking about? I do. What came to mind, what you were saying is when I was at Tassajara, I knew people by how they walked. Uh-huh. I didn't have to look at their head. I didn't have to look up to see who it was. I knew their feet. Yeah. They walked. And I thought, I know you. And I didn't have to know where you went to school or what you like, you know, what you ate. I don't need to know anything about how you think, but I know you. And it's a sweet feeling to, you know, and 40 years later, I still know them. Yeah. On retreat, that happens. I mean, the swish of the robe that walks behind you. You recognize the cadence of the people. And I think retreat is amazing because you really do get to know people without all the words. Exactly. Yeah.

[41:12]

Nice. Very nice. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Marianne. Oh, Carmina. Hi, Carmina. Nice to see you. Hi. Hello, Sangha. Long time. No talk at you. Well, at some point we had an opportunity to introduce ourselves to the group. And I didn't. I was embarrassed. I... Didn't want to call attention to myself. Well, because I'm really self-centered. Real, really. And the only thing, I don't know whether they're meant to go together, but ultimately I'm an artist and my art is poetry. And I'm an over-educated professor.

[42:20]

of theology and literature. And so I have been indoctrinated as a Catholic since I was in kindergarten. I went from kindergarten through my BA, educated by the same order of nuts. And then... I went to Cal for a doctoral program in comparative literature. And then I went and worked in the world for some years. And then I had this kind of awakening when I went to Spain. I'm Mexican. My ancestor came to Texas in 1750. Anyway, all of this is just to give you some big idea. idea of who I might be perceived as being.

[43:25]

Anyway, about 30 years ago, a very close friend took me to Green Gulch, and I remember being out on the lawn. It seemed like a lawn, and the teacher was kind of up high on a chair, and I remember the talk was quite extraordinary. My friend was a Tibetan Buddhist, and she really wanted to introduce me, probably because she thought that I was involved in a trash religion, extremely conservative, none of which I've ever been. But anyway, and I think back, and I remember kind of the figure of the person, and now I think it was Norman Fisher, okay? And he, of course, was the main event and far, far, far overreaching in interest and pleasure that our barbecue at your beach thereafter.

[44:35]

So anyway, so this thing has been percolating in my mind since that experience. And so... About five years ago, I started, Marianne and I started, you know, listening to the 10-19 morning talk and then you in the afternoon. And I realized unequivocally that while, you know, I can't, you know, the past is the past and I don't, what's the word? I don't deny, denounce Christianity or Catholicism, but that's, that will always, like they say, you can't take the girl out, you know, you can't take the Catholic girl out of Catholicism when she wants to become a Buddhist, okay?

[45:44]

So, That's where I am in these five years. I mean, what a revelation it's been to listen to Yu Fu and Linda Cutts and all the other wonderful teachers. So, as an aside, I'm looking for a teacher, and, you know, maybe Yu Fu and I can talk about how to go about that. Anyway, getting back to Suzuki Roshi, the whole business that we've been talking about, I learned two things that stuck with me always in my mind in my education was the word was authenticity, which is where I think you started, Drew. You know, that business of being who you are. You know, Here I am, whoever I am, whoever you perceive me to be.

[46:47]

Well, and the other, strangely enough, was that I always had a big problem with the triune God. Yeah, I don't understand that. But the only thing that kind of took me to do doctoral theological work was someone once said to me, Well, you know, who is Jesus? And someone else answered, Jesus is reality. Well, there it was. And that was the only way that my studies went into Renaissance. The Reformation, I had to know and understand why there had been a Reformation. And then the Catholics trying to deal with the Reformation.

[47:49]

So anyway, that tells you a little bit, a lot actually about me. I am 82 years old. I would like a teacher. I have the greatest respect and love for Buddhists and all my sangha that I watch every Sunday. Thank you, Carmina. So thank you for talking and coming forward. What a gift to all of us. I have a dear friend, Sister Marion Irving. You may know her. I don't know. You Catholic folks, I think, hang around in some smaller circles. But anyway, Sister Marion is 92, I think. And she's a Dominican sister at San Rafael. And she was, for a while, we were talking about it.

[48:51]

She likes it too. She likes the Dharma. And then she said, Fu, I want to take the precepts. And I said, Marion, what did you take the precepts for? And she said, I think I should hedge my bet. Yeah, but she's still around. I think I'm going to go catch up with her one of these days and see if she still wants to hedge her bet. Anyway, my, you know, some of my best friends are Catholics. Nothing to worry about. One is one of them. Yeah. And I'm a historian and, you know, spiritual. It's all love. It's all love, right? Absolutely. That's what Jesus said. That's a Buddhist. Well, a lot of people kept saying, you know, you know, it's love that's permeating the universe, you know, keeps us going and, you know, yeah, well, there's evil, but love. And I mean, you know, I, hey, I was a hippie, but that sounds so hippie dipping now, right?

[49:59]

And really, it's reality. Reality's good, too. Yeah, you've got to love reality. You do. And thank you so much. And I love this song. I'm glad to welcome these new people. Oh, my God, these great new faces. And all the faces I'm used to. Thank you very much. And welcome to talk anytime you like. You let me know. Okay, will do. Okay. Let's see. Melissa, where are you? Also known as Amr. Amr. Oh, you borrowed somebody's computer, huh? Hi, Amr. Hi, thank you, Fu. Good to see you online. Good to see you. Safely home, I trust. Safely home. Yeah, safe and sound. Also enjoying some good weather here. which I wasn't getting so much at the Presidio.

[51:00]

So that's a bonus. Yeah, I think the last class I attended was also one way you're going around having people introduce themselves. And I think I was like, ooh, I don't know if I'm ready for that. But the question I had for you, which is something that I've always had a hard time, a little struggle with when, you know, you're talking about, you know, the lack of the absence of a separate self, right? And, but then if there's no separate self, then who is it that's kind of going around and cooking my dinner and, you know, thinking about, you know, which precepts am I going to follow? And just, you know, we have this volitional self, but if it's not a separate self, What is it? I don't know, maybe you can weigh in on that.

[52:02]

Well, maybe you could say a little bit about separate from what? I mean, what would that self be separate from? Well, I guess separate in the sense of an independent self, maybe? Yeah, I guess if I think about it that way. It is going to be connected to... That's the way to think about it. Right. Yeah. Like, is sound separate from hearing? Or is smell separate from odor? Is taste separate from... You know, so nothing about us is separate. We would have... There would be no experience. There would be life. No life if we were truly separate. If I were cut off... My senses were cut off from the sensory field. there would be no life. There'd be just this blank space. But because we're connected, everything that happens is happening together.

[53:03]

Everyone's vibrating together. We're just one massive influence. But you can think you're separate. That's what we can do. We can think ourselves as separate and alone and whatever else you believe. You can think it. You know, can't be stopped thinking what you think. But it's good for us to think about what we think. You know, that's healthy. Is that true? Is that true? So you're a scientist, right? So you just look deeper, look more deeply into your beliefs. Okay, I'll work with that. While you're cooking. Yes, thank you. Good to see you. Hello, Kakawan. Can I go sit?

[54:05]

Of course. Hello, Fu. Hello. How's the baby? Oh, he's great. He's loud. He's getting louder and louder. He's getting more expressive. but smiling too. So it's wonderful. Having a great time. I wanted to thank you. I just feel so much gratitude. I wanted to overall just thank you for such a wonderful talk, Suzuki Roshi, for inspiring it and for all of the great questions I just heard and the wonderful answers as well. I must say I'm... I'm overjoyed here. So thank you all so much for the part that you play in all of this, right? I also wanted to say to Musho that how much what you said resonated with me.

[55:10]

If I were to call myself something, I'd say I'm an artist as well. One who's... I would say recently, but it's been years now, transitioned out of working in arts to the complete opposite of it. And I think I will always grieve that. I'm still grieving it, will always grieve that, but it's wonderful to hear you speak of it in that way that really made me feel very connected. And I wanted to share a quote that I once heard when I was... I went to college for music, music technology at CalArts. And I think I remember hearing, or at that time, they would ask us to write about our music, which to me, you know, at that time, it's to be listened to, right? And I would always remember a quote. I'm not sure if it's accurate, but I was told this by a Thelonious monk who once said that talking about music is like dancing about architecture.

[56:18]

So it was a wonderful, it reminded me of that a lot. So again, I just wanted to thank you for sharing that. It really, like I said, overjoyed. I also wanted to point out something, Fu, that you said in your talk that really resonated with me because in practice, I feel like we do act. nice sometimes when we have the wonderful opportunity to not react to the emotions we can respond uh and when you said well we're not gonna act nice because that's dishonest there's the precept being broken in being what we think is acting nice right of course we don't want to be mean right but to say no i i am angry instead of just sitting in silence or acting as though right?

[57:19]

The anger doesn't happen here, which is so far from my truth, I would say. So I thought that really sort of sparked up. It happened quickly. But when you said that, I was like, wow, how have I been living my life and working with my own honesty to others, even if I feel as though I'm protecting them, right? But we know that honesty itself can be hurtful in a way. Perhaps not cause harm, but there is some pain sometimes that happens in that, right? So thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you all for all of these words and questions and answers. It's been truly wonderful. And I saw that Jerry is not here. On the last note, I wanted to say that I have been facing some technical difficulties with processing the videos.

[58:23]

The technical difficulty being that I dropped my computer on the ground and destroyed the screen. So also grieving that loss and having to repair it. But I wanted to share with the group. And if anyone asks who, I'm scheduled to get it returned next week. So by the following week, I'm going to catch up on on editing the videos and they should start showing up online soon. So my apologies and confession for that. So thank you. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you so much. Let's see. Any more hands? Anyone else would like to share? Tim, you were up there for a while and I think you've now gone away, which is... I could say the thing briefly. I was trying to say, on that concept of uh if there's no self and we're doing a thing who's doing the thing and uh i was in a quandary this is particularly relating to sitting meditation practice where if the mind's being observed what's is there something underneath the mind that's observing the mind and so i asked my

[59:44]

monastic friends cast about for an intellectual answer and i got the answer that actually i think is correct that the thing that is doing the observing is consciousness consciousness is observing the mind and the sensations and the feelings and the thoughts and all those things so i was satisfied with that yeah I think that's the teaching. And consciousness of the five skandhas, the five heaps or aggregates that make up the self, consciousness is like the sky. If the others were like a little boat full of passengers, the form of the body and the feelings we have and our perceptions and our impulses to act, if those are all of the person in the little boat on the open ocean, then the open ocean and the sky are consciousness. But you couldn't really say, is that my consciousness? is that consciousness kind of has a vastness to it, you know?

[60:47]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so it's sort of like, something's aware. Well, it takes away the separation. Yes, yes, it does. Yeah, it takes away the separation. On all of us. Yeah, I was grateful for that. Yeah, that's great. That idea, that concept. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Yeah, thank you. Cynthia. Hello. Where'd you go? Okay. Nice to see you. Hi, Phu. Hi, Cynthia. So I just have a couple questions. You've been back and doing the song of, how many did I miss? Two or one? Two. Two? Okay. Two, three. Okay, so I'm going to look for last Sundays and then the Sunday before, once the computer gets repaired.

[61:53]

So thanks. It's funny because, you know, school is so consuming. And I feel like I'm doing, I feel centered and grounded. And I think, you know, I don't think I need Zen anymore. I'm doing so well. And then I'm in the yard. And he says, aren't you supposed to go see Fu? I'm admittedly torturing him. And I thought, okay, I'm going to go see Fu and the sangha. And the minute you started to speak and I heard all the voices, I thought, oh, this is where I belong. So I just wanted to thank you. Welcome back. Welcome back. Say hi to Zach. Thank him for reminding you. And good luck with your kids. You're just starting up again, huh? Oh, you've started. How long have you been back? A month?

[62:54]

More? Two. Two months? The middle of August. What? Yes, I've been in school. And I thought I would go to the sangha over, you know, all this time. But then school is just consuming. And it's consuming in a way that's wonderful. I mean, it is great. good work yeah the you know trying to um create um connection and health and and love with these with teenagers who are you know too many are hard to like but anyway um you get out into the world and i have a hard time sometimes um integrating what we learn here. I mean, I, I can, I, I do, but then at the same time, the world can push everything else out.

[63:57]

Yeah. I don't know how to say it. Yeah. I think push everything else out. And it's like, no time for this, no time for that. And then I am reminded, you know, started with Zach. I think food's waiting for you. And I, and I, I, It was just seeing all the screen and hearing your voice and doing the meditation, and I thought, I don't know everything. I really do need more of this. Yeah, that's good. I can remember when I first started doing this, knowing how important it was to my well-being, my mental health, among many other things, my social health, that I started working with Mala because then I'd see it, and it would help me to remember my intention. Oh, yeah, that's right. I'm working on something called practice. I don't know exactly what that means, but I really know I care about this. And so I still have that, Mala. I still wear it, and I still know I need to look at it to help.

[65:00]

Well, that might be very helpful for me because I realize that if I do anything good in the room with the 100 kids I see every day, I really think it comes from my practice. So I'll contact you. Maybe we can have some chats as we were before you went on your trip. Because I think I could use it. Great. Let's do it. Okay. Nice to meet you again. Welcome back. Senko. Hi, Phu. I'll just be three, but I'm just... No, I really, this is such a timely talk for me because my kids are on break for a week now. So I feel like they're disoriented. And so this is really helpful. And just about the topic of this consciousness, what Tim was talking about, right?

[66:02]

Like you said, we're like a bunch of neurons. Like they're probably like 100 billion neurons. Like why suddenly there's consciousness? And who is doing this? So I find like one book I read was really helpful. It's about basically complexities in the emergency. So the book talked about ant intelligence. And so because those ants, like there's no central control, but they each just does a little bit like neurons, the connection, they left their body liquid for another one to find it. But eventually they build complex systems. And somehow you feel like they have a purpose of doing each of those. But there's no central control. There's no purpose. There's nobody set. Like no president end saying you do this or that. It's just like each one of them, like a neuron, they build certain connection and there's some chemical left. And eventually this complexity emerges. And I feel like it's really helpful for me to think about neurons, biology, and how we... I don't think that solved my problem.

[67:09]

It kind of like makes me humble and I feel like... Yeah, when those little things somehow accumulate, there's, you know, a trillion of connections built based on feelings of neurons and somehow complexity emerges, maybe consciousness, maybe awareness. But being a nerd. Yeah, totally. I think what you would really enjoy and have an opportunity to enjoy, I hope so for all of each of us, is as you get older, those neurons start to unravel. Yeah. And some things that are really familiar, like names of people, where you come from, and so on, are gone. It's just like some of the ants have left the colony. And it's a fascinating process. If you're not afraid of it, so far I'm not, I'm just like, wow, wow, this is really happening. I've heard about it. I watched it happen in my elders, and now it's happening to me. And I'm like, this is fascinating because I'm having the lived experience of what you're talking about.

[68:10]

My neurons used to assume they would just behave in a certain way, you know. Yeah. Even now it's happening. I just cannot remember someone's name. It's just like, oh, I know this name, right? It happens to me now. Well, welcome. Welcome. Thank you. It's a big club. Yeah. All right. Well, good to see all of you. And many blessings to you. And I look forward to seeing you again next week, same time. Please take care. If you'd like to unmute and say goodbye, you're very welcome to do that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye. I'll see you all next week. Yeah. Yes. Have a great week. Have a good week. Bye. [...]

[69:11]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_93.86