This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. So I wanted to familiarize you all with what we do in SPOT, which is try to get... underneath what looks like good. This was a Suzuki Roshi term, looks like good. Because when you see people sitting in the zazen, sitting in zazen in the zendo, they all look so peaceful. But then as soon as you get in the kitchen or get on your crew or fall in love with someone, things get a little more complex. So this looks like good is... a tendency that Zen people have to use Zazen as a means of covering up versus uncovering and working on the emotions.

[01:12]

And this is a very tricky business, the uncovering. So I'm going to talk about a few principles involved in the uncovering. And I put all this out with just three years worth of work. So you can see what we do in SPOT. I've persuaded myself I can't cover it in an hour, so I'm just going to talk today about working with the emotions, and I'm going to talk about essentially three things, and then I'm going to let you bring up specifics. So the three things I'm going to talk about today are how Zazen affects the emotions and how to develop more stability and in terms of what's the right balance between experiencing emotions in zazen and letting them go, and what to do when they arise in your life, in your life circumstances. So first of all, I'm going to talk about zazen as an associative process as opposed to dissociation.

[02:14]

Sorry. It's okay. What you learn in doing work with people who've been traumatized, which is every one of us, we all have a belly button, so we've all had a trauma. And usually the habits and patterns you develop, you develop by the time you're before you're two. And there were impossible circumstances for each and every one of us. And each and every one of us developed patterns at that time to cope. And they were very good for a two-year-old. And they're not working so well right now. So a lot of times they get covered up, and that's because of disassociation. Disassociation is something the brain knows how to do. Every time there's a trauma that's more than you can handle at any given moment, your brain knows how to wrap it up and stuff it in a drawer, and you can't find it. So this is work that's been done in all trauma, and since we're all humans, we've all been through trauma.

[03:16]

We've all had losses. We've had things that we didn't understand when we were children. And so there are things that are tucked away. And in Zazen, we essentially say, bring it. We sit down and we open up and we say, bring it. So what happens? Sometimes it works. Sometimes what happens is that we are able to cope with feelings that arise and we begin to understand ourselves much better. But sometimes it's a little overwhelming. And sometimes we get so focused on doing the zazen we're actually pushing things away and not letting them up. So some people have ways, can use zazen and have ways of using zazen that actually creates more dissociation and repression. And it's a very fine line actually between pushing things away in zazen and just returning to your breath and having a permeable zazen when there's a stubborn pattern that keeps re-emerging, how it is you find a way to work with it.

[04:22]

So the Buddha said about when someone came to him and said, you know, well, how do I practice? He said, well, you know, it's like when you tune your lute, it shouldn't be too tight and it shouldn't be too loose. And it's the same with Zazen. You shouldn't be so focused. that the whole period goes by, although that is a blessing. The whole period goes by and you didn't notice what happened. There should be some noticing of what's arising and some breathing in and breathing out of it and letting go of it. So that's very important. Let's see if I put any other notes here. So actually, if we think of Zazen as an associative process where we're inviting what's underneath to come up, we're going to become more emotional in certain ways. And we know, actually, that that's not very popular around Zen centers. There's a certain look, you know, I don't have any feelings and so on and so on. So we need to work through something that maybe came from the translation from the Japanese.

[05:31]

You know, I went to the ceremony the Shisō ceremony for Huizu Roshi's son, Shungo Suzuki Roshi, at Eheiji. And afterwards, I saw the video of the ceremony, including myself. And there was everyone sitting there. There wasn't a look on their face, and there was me. And there's a way that, you know, people are different in the way they show emotion regarding their ethnicity and their culture. And we can't try to transpose some of those patterns on ourself. It's not so healthy. So that's very important to understand. There are physical and physiological analogs to disassociation and what happens in the brain when you're flooded or overwhelmed with unpleasant experiences, sensations, or emotions that have started, as I said, from the time you were a child.

[06:32]

When you have been wounded or have a cut or you have a splinter in your body, your body immediately creates an inflammatory process that surrounds and isolates. that physical object in your body, and it seals it off. And it's the same thing that happens in the mind. So part of what we can look at in Zazen as a dissolving process, in fact, when they talk about meditation practices, Soto Zen is one of the dissolving, one of the water practices. So it is a dissolving of layers of defenses. Some of the fire practices are the koan practices. practices and the Tibetan energetic practices, and they're a little more dangerous. They can create more imbalance in the body, but the one we're doing is more of a dissolving and a gentle practice. One of the things about the associative process in Zazen is it is not systematic. That's unfortunate.

[07:35]

It would be great if, you know, we started out at age 40 and we went back to 36 and 32 and so on, but it isn't like that. And Joko Beck talks about this in one of her books, that it is not a systematic process. So sometimes you're going along fine, and you can drop off a cliff into a really frightening place. Of course, that would be a time in our culture when we would go for therapy, and I would certainly recommend that. And I do to people who come in and are stuck in some very intense kind of suffering. It's like they drop down into something, and they don't really have the skills to cope with it. So that can happen with zazen and it's important to recognize. So the other thing is that if we don't have a kind of permeable and dissolving process with our zazen, which I'm going to say more about, then we can actually tighten up more and continue to shut down and repress what ought to be coming up.

[08:39]

So we can use zazen in that way. So it's very important that the process work in a way that you're aware, you're aware of some of these emotions coming up, some of the emotional patterns, and your reactivity to situations. Do you have any questions at this point? Yes. I mean that, I'll repeat it. She asked what I meant by physical and physiological analogs. What I meant is in the dissociation process that happens in the brain and nervous system, there's a physical analog, which is what happens to you if you get a splinter. Your body seals it off. And if you get a trauma, your brain seals it off. And if it's more than you can handle. So part of what's happening in Zazen is that we're working to dissolve that scar tissue. Okay. So I'm going to talk about, I've been working on a piece trying to describe what Zazen does in terms of trauma because there's an issue coming out on depth psychology and Buddhism.

[09:48]

So first of all, you all know interpersonally when you work with a therapist or even with a good friend, they haven't had the same experience. either conditioning or the same temperament that you have. So you can talk about some of your issues usually without them going off the deep end, particularly if it's professional. So they're going to create some space where you can bring forward what hasn't been working for you, and then you're going to be able to turn it around in the space that's created between the two of you. And you're going to be able to turn it and look at it and be curious about it. But the difference between doing that with a therapist is that you're very limited to how aware the therapist is. So if the therapist is a deeply enlightened Buddha, you're in pretty good shape. But if it's a normal human being, your ability to move beyond this trauma is going to be somewhat limited. On the other hand, the way I see... working with Zazen on some of these issues, is that you're actually encountering the absolute, or what I call the transpersonal realm.

[10:56]

You're encountering the... So you have access to unlimited awareness. You and God, or whatever you want to call it, are talking. And that kind of wisdom is something that's available to you through Zazen and through your practice. So when that... happens, that's sometimes a very big view. And Darlene Cohen talked about ways of working with this sort of encounter between the absolute and your absolute awareness and your small self in that you begin to be aware of some of the places you're really stuck. It's like every time somebody corrects me, I want to smack them. And you're aware of that. But that doesn't mean That feeling of anger doesn't arise in you still. So she said there are 300,000 opportunities before you change. In the first 100,000, you become aware of what's going on in your body and in your mind regarding the tension that's arising.

[12:04]

You're aware that something's happening, but you're not yet entirely clear. By the end of the 100,000 times that it's happened, you start to see the patterns. And you see it more clearly. You become aware of it in your body. And you sometimes make connections. You know, when my face gets hot, I'm really angry. I start shaking. I really would like to throttle somebody. You become aware of those things. And yet, it's still happening. By the end of the second hundred thousand times... You're coming to a place where you're so aware of the process in your body and you welcome it. You don't turn away from it. This is a very important part of this, that you have a choice. But that takes a lot of work. And the most important thing, this was Maureen Stewart's teaching, don't avert. Don't avert. We should become curious about these very, what we think are unpleasant things

[13:06]

emotional arisings in our body. As Uchiyama Roshi says, everything you encounter is your life. We would like to say, well, actually that belongs in somebody else's life, that unpleasantness, but actually it belongs to us and that's why we're encountering it. Everything you encounter is your life. So, and this is, this first stage, I think I would call this a first stage of Zazen is that you encounter the absolute, And there is a refining and a heightening of your noticing. Your ability to notice becomes more acute. You don't become thicker and duller with a little luck when you're doing sasen. You become more sensitive. Well, that's a little bit of a problem, too, especially when you're in community. You become really sensitive. I remember when I was here at Tassajara doing the practice period, sometimes people would get so tense and say, don't clap. clackers! You know, just the wrong noise with the clappers.

[14:09]

You know, we're driving them a little nuts. So, you know, we get very sensitive. Dogen said, to study the Buddha way is to study the self. So we have to start where we are. This is not new. I'm not teaching New Age Zen. I'm teaching Soto Zen. We have to start with ourselves. We can't go somewhere else to study where this awareness is. And as Uchiyama Roshi said, it's settling the self on the self. And we could capitalize the second self. It's really encountering the absolute and seeing ourselves in perspective. But this is a period of enhanced sensitivity. Then these second two, I have intimacy with unstructured awareness, and then I'm going to talk about laser mind because that's a little... mysterious. But those two kind of happen together. So one of the things that begins to happen in Zazen is that we recognize the difference between the contents of our awareness and the essence of our awareness.

[15:21]

There are contents of your mind and there is essence of mind. So which one is the real you? And After a while with sitting, one begins to have more intimacy with that which is the essence of mind. When we start out, we're all about the contents of our mind. This is who I am. This is what I've been through. This is what I know, and so on. This is all contents. It all is our personal self that we cling to. But there is... This un-self, the non-self, or the impersonal, or the big self, or whatever we want to call it. I'll call it unstructured awareness or essence of mind, which we encounter in sasen. And as we continue to encounter that experience of just being bathed in awareness itself, we recognize the difference between what we're thinking and what's observing the thinking.

[16:28]

And that's very stabilizing. So our own narrative and story is seen in perspective. Oh, that's just one of those stories I tell. And I'll get to you in a second. So the self that we identify with now becomes the observing self, the one that's watching. Boy, that's kind of fun that I do that. Every time you say that, I jump. That's kind of interesting, isn't it? I was having this experience when I was studying as a psychologist, and I had to pick an internship, and I was looking through a book. I mean, I was practicing Zazen at the time, so I thought my bodily sensations were pretty interesting. And when I was reading them, I would read through the whole list of internships, and I came to one, which was Battered Women's Alternatives in Concord, California. my stomach dropped like it was on an elevator.

[17:31]

I said, well, that's weird. I don't have that in my marriage. My mother didn't have it in her marriage. That's kind of interesting. What if I read the list from the other direction? Which I did. Stomach dropped. I said, well, that must be the one then. I'm going to go to that internship. I'm going to go there. I didn't have any other information but that, and I had learned to trust it. So I went there, and then... A few months later, my mom was up for a visit, and I told her what I was doing. I said, well, I think about maybe having this place be a safe house, you know, for women. She said, I don't know why you'd want to help these women. Nobody ever helped me. Well, I was three when all of this stopped, so I didn't remember, but something did. Something did. So it becomes very interesting, and it's there taking care of you. If you have developed... your ability to be in touch. I had a question. I was just curious about when you're saying you're noticing the thoughts and what's the observing self, noticing the content.

[18:37]

But it seems to me like there would be at least a place where that could be destabilizing before you actually get to that type of thing where you're constantly in the road of the content. So the question is that it can be a little destabilizing, destabilizing when you're watching your thoughts. I've heard a lot of people say, I wasn't this bad before I started practice. When you actually take a look at what your mind is doing. Yeah, yeah, it can be upsetting. And it's just, we don't tell that to brand new people. We don't tell them what they're getting into. But it is a journey, and it is a stage that you go through. It's like, God, what a low life. And again, this is part of why we have support from a teacher in a community to say, yeah, that's just the way it is. That's been going on. That voice has been hidden from you. You've been acting it out on other people. Other people could tell you about it. You just didn't know you were doing that. So we become more aware of it.

[19:38]

And it is uncomfortable. But it is a stage, I think, that we have to pass through and that we can be reassured or we may need some help to get through it again with counseling or therapy. So there is a gradual erosion or letting go of the narrative as we realize, oh, that's just a story. And we keep realizing, oh, that's just a story. And it sticks around for a long time, but gradually we're wearing it away. And the self-referencing is a gradual erosion. So let's see if there are any other notes I have here. Oh, it's... Back to Dongshan, where he said, it is me, but I am not it. You know, the awareness. I am not it entirely, right? It is me, but I'm made out of it. But I am not it. So we recognize that we're existing within this context of energy and awareness.

[20:44]

So let me talk a little bit about laser mind. If you ever wondered why humans existed, this is my explanation for why humans exist. I just thought I'd answer that deep philosophical point. Everything has a function, and human beings have a function, which is the ability to transform suffering into joy. But... It doesn't happen unless you develop it. So it's kind of like having a Maserati in your driveway. You might only get it into third gear, but it has many more gears, and you have many more gears, which are developed through practice, through Buddhist practice. It's a very fine process. And it doesn't happen automatically that you become capable of transforming suffering. But you do become capable of that as you refine your awareness.

[21:47]

You're less and less focused on the small self and more present in the moment, and your mind actually becomes a suffering, transforming device. Versus you being, what does Uchiha Maroshi call it? A... Manure-producing device. Yeah, you can change that. You might still be manure-producing device, but that's not all you have to be. So this awareness actually is probably what is referred to in the literature when they're talking about Kensho, the kind of breakthrough to an awareness that sees to the bottom of your suffering at the same time it transforms. It becomes transformative. And this can happen lots and lots of times. So it's kind of like developing a muscle. You know, you may have some capacity, but unless you actually do the exercise, that muscle won't develop.

[22:48]

So this is something that happens, and it happens along with this intimacy with the essence of mind. And I think most of you have some of this little experience or some little experience of it by doing seshing or... long practices, that there's something that becomes, the light in your mind becomes amplified. You know, the Tibetans refer to this, the qualities of mind as luminous, no essential self, and all pervading. So there's something that arises when the mind is worked with in this way and the awareness is refined that makes it possible. for you to take not only your suffering but that of others and transform it. And it becomes a purpose for your life. It becomes a purpose for your life. So this is, I think, the meaning of the Buddha saying, be a lamp unto yourself. You have to start there and transform your own suffering with this light.

[23:53]

It's not about doing things in a particular way, doing them in the right way. It's not about following a particular doctrine. But it's really about your... refining your awareness to a point where it has a different quality of usefulness to you as a human being. It goes beyond thinking and just feeling your own personal story. Do you have any questions? I mean, you've read many, many accounts of this in the literature of these qualities of mind. Yes? Yes, I can. Having done both, I will tell you what I see as essential differences. First of all, I mentioned that you have certain limitations in working with a therapist because they have only reached a certain level of development.

[24:56]

And no matter how long a therapist works with you, you will not become a therapist. You will not learn the techniques that they have. But if you're working with a skillful teacher, you will become able to use the techniques with someone else. You will understand. They will be able to be transparent with you and tell you what they're doing. And you'll eventually come to understand what happened, more or less. Another thing that's different between therapy and working with a teacher, particularly in practice discussion that I'm talking about now, is that when you're working in therapy, the personal narrative, the individual story, is all important. It's essential. And that the therapist hear it and relive it to a certain extent, contain it for you, and that you get to get it all out there is very important. Because it's almost like you're being reparented in a more wholesome environment. But this is not the case in practice discussion. In practice discussion, a teacher...

[25:58]

ought to be able to reach you in some way if you're reasonably mature and say, yeah, that's suffering. Remember what the Buddha said? This is the first noble truth. What you're describing is suffering. What you're describing is suffering. So now, if you need to go into therapy and explore exactly what that suffering is, that's fine. But the point is, how will you use your practice to contain that suffering? And you don't need to know every little last detail of it. You need to know how to practice with it. So that's a big difference. Another thing that I found very cheering when I retired from being a therapist is I am not responsible for someone getting well. That's their responsibility. And when you take a patient on in therapy, you have to see that they get better or else. You know, you're in a medical profession, and if your patient doesn't get better, you're in trouble.

[26:59]

So as a teacher, when you offer all of the techniques, you know that people are free to use them or not, to get better or not get better. It's not your responsibility. So this is very important. And also you might be able to sleep at night as a teacher if you understand this. But it's still aggravating. It's still aggravating. Yes. Wait, was that enough, Judith? Yes. So my question is, in Zazen, the thought arises with a bunch of emotional content. And sometimes I'm like, there's a path of investigating certain things. And then there's a path of going into the body and just abiding with what it is and just letting go of the content.

[28:01]

Yes. So it's very important that you do both because, you know, there's a story of Joshu, throw it away, where his head monk comes to it and says, I've let go of everything. What do you say to the one who's let go of everything? And he says, I say, throw it away. He says, what do you mean throw it away? I just told you I'd thrown it all away. And the students and Joshu says, very well then, keep on carrying it. Keep on carrying it. So sometimes you throw it away. And you throw it away and you throw it away and you throw it away. This is an activity in Zazen where you let it go and you let it go. But if that sucker keeps coming back, you better stay with it. So it depends on what it is. And that's something to work on specifically with a teacher and practice discussion. Particularly if you notice that it's linked to difficult relationships or emotions that arise for you when you're not on the cushion.

[29:07]

Because as Jokel Beck said, if you don't take your practice off the cushion and watch your mind when you're in your life, you're better off not sitting. Because you need to have that work of integrating. You can't just sit there and throw it away and throw it away. You need to take it back out and say, what happens when I work with it? Something else? Yes? How would you define the joy that suffering is? How would I define it? Gosh, we don't talk about joy much, do we? Well, when you get up in the morning and the temperature is perfect and you hear a bird sing and you had a good night's sleep, probably not when you're here, but some other time, there's a sense that all is well. And most of the time we don't have it. you know, that sense that all is well, but that's the joy that I'm talking about, all is well.

[30:09]

So we can, we're still here, and it's working for us. And it's funny, it's a little precarious. My husband and I used to ride our bikes around Bass Lake, and we were joking one time about you know, this would be perfect except the temperature's like two degrees too high. And then we went to a cold spot, it's like two degrees too low, you know. We're always complaining about something. But every now and then we have a moment when we just, we're present completely. And being alive is a great joy. Yes? I would, if that works for you. Part of it is equanimity, but there also can be a rush of good sensation in the body. I think the Buddha referred to it as sukha. And some people, when they sit down to do meditation, probably many of us who are still here with it, had sukha, had really pleasant sensation. And some people have dukkha and probably don't come back.

[31:11]

But it's hard to say, you know, which one you get more of. You eventually get both in your zazen. You know, you have the just pleasurable sensations in the body and miserable ones. So both happened. Anything else? Yes. Why did you retire from therapy? Well, this is personal, but my first grandchild was born, so I had patients to see. I was doing koan practice with a koan master in Japan, and now I had a grandchild. And I didn't think it was fair to my patients for me to be gone that much. And also, I was about 55 at the time. Truth be told, I was 53 and a half. But anyway, I told my husband I would work till 55. So I'm feeling a little. But in any case, I didn't think I was going to live very long at that time. I've actually gotten healthier since then. But I said, I better do what I want to do. And I better give that time. And I financially was in a position I didn't have to work.

[32:15]

Thank you, Peter. So I did retire a little early. But that was why. And I enjoy the work, but I think this is more of what I was meant to do. I met Suzuki Roshi when I was about 20, and it had a profound effect on my life. It's like my whole life went in the river of Suzuki Roshi. The whole river moved. So it's been part of me for a long time, and I was glad that I had the opportunity to devote myself to it, and I felt that it would be shortchanging other people. Because they wanted to see me every week. And that was my commitment, to treat them. Anything else? It's a good profession, though. I don't mind it. One question. I think when strong emotions arise, it's really easy to get into a narrative about what those mean.

[33:17]

And you don't want to get locked into a narrative, but also if you're then trying to take that to a practice discussion, at some point you have to have some sort of words to make sense of it for yourself and also to get some help with it? Mm-hmm. Yeah, you have to have words. You have to say something. I think one of the teachers said that. So there's no prohibition on describing something that you're stuck with. When you're stuck somewhere, you have to say, I'm stuck and I need help. But how do you attach words to it without attaching... Without making it worse? Yeah, well, you're making it worse, but you're making it worse in the way to getting it better, so campy health. And I don't mean to be glib about it, but yeah, sometimes you need to keep a journal of it and really be able to, and now I'm going to get to talk a little bit more about what you do with those strong feelings on this page. Did you have another question? Yeah, maybe you're going to talk about it already, but just what you actually do in the moment.

[34:18]

All right, here's what we do in the moment. Yay! We're very interested. You know, having strong emotions is a little bit like burping. You know, it's embarrassing, particularly in the Zen community, you know, having strong emotions. We'd rather not. But, you know, we are what we are. So how do we cultivate interest and curiosity about, wow, like I did about that thing in my stomach. Wow, where did that come from? You know, what was that? So how do we cultivate that curiosity? We should be encouraged to be curious about our feelings, not to make them go away. So it isn't a goal to make them go away. That's not our goal. We're not trying to make them go away. They won't go away, actually. I'm sorry. You guys are advanced enough, I can tell you. They won't go away. They're not going to go away, and you're not going to become perfectly free of them. I know they say that in Buddhism. I just haven't met anybody. I've met very fine teachers. I've worked with very fine teachers, but haven't met anybody who didn't have any shtick.

[35:20]

So the point is, it's not going to be driving you like a tail wagging a dog. It's going to find a position. You're going to feel the pangs of it sometimes, but it's not going to drive you nuts. That's the goal. So be curious about it. And if possible, be curious with your practice leader about it and share it and journal it. And if you're stuck there, then get some therapy for it. But you can't you know, turn your back on it, not name it, not describe it, and expect that it's going to go anywhere. It's going to stick there like a splinter that's got scar tissue around it. You've got to turn towards it. You've got to use your awareness to soften it, to dissolve all that defensiveness. And it's not going to feel that great. But you need to develop the curiosity and courage to turn towards it. So that's the first thing. So you have to pay attention. Actually, just don't avert was Maureen Stewart's teaching, which she taught to Maley Scott, who taught it to me.

[36:26]

Just don't avert. Whatever arises, stay with it. Be with it. Open yourself to it. And if it's too much, then sometimes you'll have to avert. But try. Try to stretch yourself to be with it. You'll develop more capacity to be with difficult emotions. as you practice with them, just like any muscle you use. And I want to say something about what I'm using as a muscular analogy, because these difficult feelings can overwhelm us when we're not paying attention. It's like getting an injury in sports when we're not holding ourselves properly. So there's a way that if you're paying attention and it starts to come up, you can work with it. If you're not paying attention and a fantasy starts up or memory starts up and it gets the better of you, it's like it's too late. You know, you're having a Klesha attack and you're going to have to wait it out.

[37:28]

But if you can catch it as it's coming up and you can see, you know, how do I work with it in the body? So the curiosity is very important. So you want to create some space or a gap where you can study it a little bit. Now, the Tibetans have a description of this They talk about a contemplative space that's between meditation and daily activity. We don't talk about that so much. So let's say you've just had a really unpleasant encounter with someone. And it seemed harmless enough. You said, pass me a spoon. And they said, shut up or whatever happened after that. And you had a really unpleasant experience of it. You got more and more upset by it. If you go off and review, what happened? What did I think? Did I think I was with my mother? Did I think I was with my sister? Did I feel like that person didn't care about me and I want them to care about me?

[38:29]

What happened there? What were the feelings as they came up in the body during that experience? We need to review it. So this stage of contemplation where we just had a Klesha attack, now we're going to replay. We're going to replay, say, what set it off? If we follow it, if our mind is open and we're in a safe space, we can often follow it down to a deeper root and really understand a little bit, okay, that's not my mother. I keep thinking she's my mother, but it's not. So let's start again. Let me keep that in mind next time I'm around that person. So that stage of contemplation is really important in working with emotions. Also, when we're working with it, how does it feel? If we replay it, this is a good thing to do, actually. After you got out of a horrible situation, you usually want to go do something pleasant.

[39:30]

See if you can bring it back up and identify in the body where it is, how it feels. Is it hot? Is it cold? Is it tense? Where is it? Really, really explore it. Give it your awareness. Anything like dreams that you give attention to really opens up for you. That's just the kind of creatures we are. We're capable of incredible sensitivity and development if we use our own mind to go there. If we shut it off, nothing happens. So, you know, you ask those questions. Did it tingle? Did it throb? Did it ache? Did it tighten? What part of the body? Where did you feel it? How long did it last? How long did it actually last? It felt like it went on forever. But actually, how long did it last? And how long did it take us to recover? We really want to pay attention to that. I remember when I was doing a practice period here, I'd be going along.

[40:33]

It's kind of like I ride horses. It's kind of like you're doing great. And then all of a sudden, you're down in the dirt. What? What happened? And you explore, what happened in my mind? You sort of go to a playback. You say, when did I fall off the horse? Why was I groveling in the mud? What happened? And what I learned in doing the practice period in that way was that, yeah, you're going to fall off. You're going to be going along, and you're going to be taking things in and working with them and being a reasonable human being, and then you're going to fall off of that. So it's a question of how long you stay off. You want to have a hissy fit and stay there for a while, or you want to work with it and come back? So that's up to you. Where does it happen? When does it happen? With whom does it happen? All the associations have to be there. And as I said, you need to recreate that experience through contemplation.

[41:37]

So if you have some more questions now, we can talk some more about specific questions. Yes? I'm wondering, is it possible to have some emotional turmoil that's not associated with Sure it is. Yeah, sure it is. Yeah, we're infinitely capable of trouble. So just, you know, if I have a problem with someone that doesn't necessarily... No, no, well, no. With a bully from your past, not necessarily. Someone could actually be wanting to harm you. You should know that. You know, when someone spits on you, you shouldn't think it's rain. You should know that that's actually happening.

[42:41]

But the difference is, usually when that happens, it doesn't last and you can see through it. You're kind of like, what was that? Why were you putting me down with that remark or something like this? But if it isn't tied to something that's hidden from you, it won't stick. You'll say, I guess he's having a bad hair day, so let's move on. Not for very long, and it's like, okay, I got it. For whatever reason, that person doesn't care for me. I'm not everyone's cup of tea. Let's move on. But if we have issues with it, then it's going to become something that sticks, and we're caught in a cycle with it. We want it to be otherwise. This is my witbo, wishing it to be otherwise. We wish it to be other than what it is, and that causes us no end of suffering. We want that person to like us because we have some unmet needs or something.

[43:42]

But if we see that it's just what it is and we're not stuck in some reliving some past loss, then we're okay with it. But if we are, it'll stick. It becomes more a pattern. Yes? Can you talk about the difference between learning and actually creating healthy boundaries? Mm-hmm. Okay, so an aversion is a charged reaction to block something out. It's like, I'm not looking there. Healthy boundaries, I'm laughing because I'm remembering something, which is an example. Healthy boundaries is when we look at a situation and rationally say, this is how I'm going to take care of myself. Aversion is an automatic response. I don't like that. I was thinking about, remember when George's pants fell off at Berkeley Zen Center? Were you in the room? We had a situation at Berkeley Zen Center where the head server came, I guess it was the head server came in and did his Bowser.

[44:50]

Who does the Bowser? Tenzo? Tenzo comes in. Well, he had on stretch sweatpants and... he knew they were loose so he took a big breath before he did his bows and then when he bowed all the way down to the floor he let the breath out and when he stood up his pants were at his ankles so I don't think I had an aversion when I decided to look away I was deciding If I look at this, I am going to start laughing. I think I was a head server, and I'm never going to be able to complete my task. That was a healthy boundary. But anyway, I looked up at Sojin, and he couldn't control himself, so that was the end of that plan. But situations will come up where you will make healthy decisions, and then they're automatically, I can't stand that. I remember that experience I had once they were showing... some technology at a psychological training I was at.

[45:51]

And part of it was showing a child with a bloated belly. And I immediately, you know, physically reacted and turned away and said, no. And when I caught myself doing that, because I was practicing, I said, that was aversion. Turn back. Look at that. Let it in. But you have to be the one to decide. You have to examine it and decide. If it's automatic, it's a version. It's just... And it will be charged. Sometimes you have to make a difficult decision about a boundary. And it's not comfortable. But it's actually you're thinking something through. So it takes some time. So that's the difference. And it's necessary for taking care of yourself. Because we're not... Even though we would like to be infinitely capable of handling all the suffering that presents itself to us, we are not. We are humans. So we do set boundaries.

[46:54]

And we hopefully share them with other people who respect them. It's very important in the community. Yes? When we do seek therapy for something that we're struggling with, how would you recommend... not getting more attached to our narrative. Yes, I do know. How do we not get attached to our narrative? Well, first of all, I would recommend, pragmatically, that you tell the therapist you can't pay full fee. You won't be in for as long. That's a pragmatic approach. But you can tell some people really want to sell therapy. In fact, I did a workshop that was in Buddhism and psychotherapy, which was Zen zombies and counseling Klingons, you know, avoiding feelings entirely or taking the narratives and really going to town with it.

[47:58]

So you have to examine yourself, too. in the therapeutic. And you can ask, okay, what's the treatment plan? How long is this going to take? And check in, you know, how is this going? But you should know that something is changing in your life. When you're doing therapy, if it's not changing, then it's not working. And nowadays, if you have health insurance at all, they recommend short-term therapy. Anyway, I mean, I usually only pay for short term. So mostly people are only very wealthy people are in these long term, you know, multiple times a week analyses. But you need to check in with yourself. What does it feel like? Do you feel like your relationship with your therapist is becoming more important than that with your friends and in your other relationships? That's wrong. I think some therapists like that, but I think that's wrong. You should be feeling some strength, some strengthening, some bigger view of your life when you're doing therapy, that things are changing, you're understanding yourself better, and you're becoming more confident when you're doing therapy rather than more dependent on the therapist.

[49:14]

Yes? So you mentioned two prominent primary approaches to... mental conditions through the practice and through teachers, and then also through kind of the nutritional psychotherapy approach. What do you think about community responses to mental conditions? I think they're very important. It's one of the things that we really teach a lot about in SPOT. And I don't think sufficient attention is paid to it at traditional Zen centers. It's a very important thing to bring the tradition across and to learn to do things. But I think what needs to happen and what is beginning to happen is more attention to group process. We actually understand quite a lot about group process now in the West.

[50:18]

And when the Buddha named the Sangha a treasure, we should pay attention to it with our Western minds. This is something we know something about. People are scapegoated. People have roles in group. And I think Zen teachers need more education on these subjects and that there needs to be more process in Zen centers to work with the Sangha to make it a healthy Sangha. Because, as I said, when we try to transplant a very hierarchical samurai tradition to the West, it's not comfortable. And, for example, just to talk about the differences, which is slightly off your topic, but I think I addressed it. It is girl babies who want to make eye contact. Boy babies don't really care. And for us not to make eye contact as part of Zen practice is punitive to us as females, is taking something away that would give us comfort and safety and stability.

[51:23]

And we have to examine all of these things, understanding that all of the teachers who brought Zen to the West were men who were trained in monasteries. They had very little experience at all in training women. We have to keep looking at this, that we're going to make it our own and not be doing an imitation of of practice and imitation of Japanese practice. Because, you know, one size doesn't fiddle, and that's not the way we're made. So there are lots of things that are coming up now, and it's one of the things we're really working on, is developing this interpersonal realm and group dynamics as a teaching, so that teachers, when conflict comes up in sanghas, the people that we're training in spa know what that feels like. We turn it up. We give them secret roles. Nobody knows who the other guy is. Somebody's out to jettison the teacher, and somebody's the teacher's favorite, and nobody knows who's got what role. And then we put them all together and tell them to play out these roles and to notice what happens when they can't get their agenda met in the meeting, which is real.

[52:30]

That's what happens in meetings. Everybody has an agenda. And sometimes it's known and sometimes it's secret. And what you do when that conflict arises, you know, do you do like this or do you want to get in there and fight it out? You need to know those things about yourself and you need to be in conflicted situations to get the training you need as a teacher because you're going to have conflict in your sangha if you're teaching human beings. Yes. I think you have to look at that, the rate, what's your expectation. And what I refined it to say was that if your confidence isn't growing, if you're not seeing more about what got you into trouble or what undermines you, if you don't see more about that, then you're not really getting what you need to get. So then you should say, I don't really understand what's happening with me. You may be answering my other question, which is, it feels like there's

[53:34]

you're not getting better, Zazen, what about gaining mind and balance between those things? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, most people come to Zazen thinking that it's going to make their suffering go away. I'm really sorry about that. You know, it doesn't make the suffering go away. So, not exactly. It develops your capacity to work with it. And that takes a long time, a really long time. And so this is why we work with the teacher. It gives us some realistic feedback. And we should be able to see, even in doing zazen, that something is changing. I think this was a discussion. between Aiken Roshi and Sojin Roshi about their way of practice. And Aiken Roshi, who worked with Koan, said, you know, when a student comes to me with a certain look in his eye, I know something has happened.

[54:45]

And Sojin Roshi said, when they change their life, then I know something has happened. And so even though you still feel a little miserable, if you see more about how you get yourself into trouble, and you have a bigger view of what's going on, that's good. And you should have someone who can work with you realistically on that. But we can't help but having a gaining mind. You know, most people who come to Zazen are not enlightened Buddhists. So of course we come with a gaining mind. Most of us who come have problems. That's why we're here. So we have a gaining mind, and somebody needs to help us with that too. Yes. It's worse. Yeah, so it's been some, whatever, 40-plus years for me. And there are times, oh, I really got it.

[55:46]

And then, of course, there are other times. So it is more, I think, of a cycle, that there are things that we work through, and then there are more things that we work through. And, you know, as... In the beginning of your practice, yeah, there's a lot of difficulty, and that's to be expected. But there ought to be also, as I said, some change in your life, some way that you're seeing, oh, I see how I get myself into this trouble. I see my unrealistic expectations. I see my weak boundaries. I see how I'm needing something from people who don't want to give it to me. Oh, I see that. That ought to be happening, even though it may not yet be perfectly aligned Buddha. Yes? My question, or maybe just more of a question observation, is sometimes it seems the answer is no matter what's going on for somebody, oh, just sit more rather than, and it seems like there are certain types of personalities or people who lack a basic ego strength who seem to get worse or don't seem to, like it doesn't seem to sink in.

[56:53]

And it seems like sometimes instead of addressing this person, Or maybe the teachers don't know how to address this person's particular neurosis. It makes them highly dysfunctional, if you will, and causes them to suffer and make do of harm to others. It seems like, at least my experience in being around Zen Center for a few years, is often that's just, well, you know, they've got naivete around it, that somehow this person can just stop. Yes. Or whatever their addiction is, if they just sat one's on it, it would go away or something. Sometimes it gets annoying. Well, everything is annoying. It is the human realm we're in. Also depression. Yeah, also depression, yeah. Well, I'm trying to work to find a way to not use... something that isn't right speech to talk about this. It's obviously a big problem in the community and it annoys me.

[57:57]

So it's the reason that we created the Shogaku Zen Institute as a way of giving priests more skills other than go do zazen or go do a ceremony. You need to know more about how to help people. First of all, you need to know where your blind spots are. And you need to not sing a song, the company's song, that if you just did more Zaza and if your practice was better, you would be okay. I mean, I've heard this about my gluten intolerance. You know, somehow... This is obstinacy. Now, I noticed that the teacher pointed this out. He had surgeries for various heart ailments and prostate and this, that, and the other. It wasn't his practice that was causing that problem. So, you know, somebody else's problem, if only you practice more. Yeah, I would like to use a certain word that has to do with horses, but I'm not going to because I'm being recorded. It's really important to examine what norms and what sort of construction of culture we have.

[59:02]

I've had the same things with a number of people with interpersonal situations. I've tried to address it directly. And someone who's been meditating a long time, and other people as well, with a lot of practice under their belt, still don't know their blind spots, how they're acting them out interpersonally. And the person basically said, this is your problem. You need to sit more. Oh, really? That's very interesting. Yes. Well, it's why I think it's very important that we bring this practice into our culture with our vocabulary. Even though I use the word klesha, I much prefer the word defensiveness. We have defenses. We all understand what that means. We don't have to study the Abhidharma to come up with some far-fetched... We can talk about defensiveness and work with defensiveness. A typical form of defensiveness is using the spiritual practice.

[60:02]

That's right. I have a special term for that, which I can say, which is called weaponizing the Dharma. And that is a frequent occurrence. Yes, right. Yeah, weaponizing the Dharma. There's something wrong with your posture, with your practice. That's your problem. And that is a creation of defensiveness. And I'm all about that we should explore that. It makes absolutely no sense to me that you go to Buddhist communities, you have people who won't speak to each other. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. But it's the fact. And if they were in my community, I would say get it together. or get out. It's not acceptable to be a Buddhist and not work on this stuff. And so, so far, it's, you know, I don't have that where people aren't speaking to each other. If it starts to come up, right away put them together very early on.

[61:04]

It's like, let's talk about it. You take your part. You don't like to step up into conflict. You take your part. You like to. Let's get it out there. Each of you take responsibility. And I think this is a very important teaching. It's very interesting. Transpersonal therapies have plenty of studied and information about dysfunctions of spiritual practice, which should be part of study and practice for everybody. You're preaching to the choir here. So I feel the same way. There's a lot of ways... that we won't wreck Zen by examining it through the lens and technologies that are working and helping us in our culture. This thing has survived 2,500 years. We're not going to wreck it. Even selfish and ego-centered as we are, materialistic as we are as Westerners, we're not going to wreck Buddhism.

[62:05]

It survives every culture. So it will survive this too. And I believe we need to make changes. But there's always going to be schisms for the traditionalists and the others. So I'm in the others. And I love this practice with all my heart. I did the training that I needed to do in Japan and also post-Dharma transmission, the Dendo Kyoshi and all of that. Because I want to be able to stand here and say, I do understand what we're getting at. But we need to do it differently. understand what we're trying to do. I've seen it. I've been in zendos in Japan. I understand what they're aiming for. What is it we're trying to get at? How it is we enter the Buddha's body. It's a very important technology, but we have to find different ways to do it. I'm with you. That's my belief. Do you have any advice for someone who finds a kind of

[63:06]

Yes, have a gentle teacher. Have a teacher who says, all right, let's take a tiny bite, a tiny bite of it. Enough already. Yeah. Well, different issues arise at different ages. And if you don't want to engage in it, no one's going to force you. On the other hand, if you're having difficulties in the relationships, in the community, there may be something more to see that it might have to offer you. But I can't say, and I don't want to give you a glib answer. So I'd have to know the specific reasons why it seems terrifying at this particular point. There are many different modalities of therapy.

[64:08]

You don't have to go to conventional psychology or psychotherapy. There's wonderful transpersonal schools of therapy which include practice or perspective where you dismantle the construction of self. You've got to make your choice and research where you go to for therapy. Yes, but I think what I heard you say, and I don't know your name. Well, not necessarily. Yeah, there are lots of ways. And there are ways even that your teacher can help you to take things apart. But if you're uncomfortable, here's what I teach people. You're uncomfortable. You're not going over that edge there. Then go right up to it and hang out there. Go right up to the edge of your fear and stay there. Don't go over because you have to establish your own boundaries. But stay there and see what happens. So I kind of wasn't expecting that to be part of that.

[65:11]

Well, is everything working out well? You got no complaints? Nobody complains about you, then all's going well, right? But if there are conflicts, then it's good to figure out what's happening underneath. That's all. Very pragmatic. Is there anything else before we end? It's been really great to be with you all, and I hope that some of you join me on my retreats. We have one in September, and then if you're here for practice period, you won't make that. We also have one between Christmas and New Year's, and we will be doing more spot training, helping priests learn how to work with people in a personal way using techniques of group dynamics and so on. So thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma.

[66:13]

For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[66:19]

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