Good afternoon. Welcome. So sit for a few minutes. I'll ring the bell and then I'll talk some more about the Sandokai. So my plan is to this Sunday and next Sunday to finish the Sandokai lectures.

[05:48]

So I have been enjoying them so much. And I hope some of you have been as well reading through the book. It really seems to have been quite a different experience to spend time with them, you know, taking notes and going over the stories. And I feel like that. really helps me to understand, how do we get inside of these teachings? How do we bring our understanding and Suzuki Roshi's understanding into a connection, into some feeling of, oh, I get it. So anyway, I've been feeling that way quite a bit, like, oh, wow, what a wonderful teacher this Suzuki Roshi was and how lucky we are that he came here. I wanted to also mention that the other day I was walking home from the Zendo with Linda Ruth Cutts, who lives a few houses down on our path here at Green Gulch. And she said to me, I just wanted to mention that you've been pronouncing Shito's name incorrectly.

[06:51]

And I thought, oh, dear. So it's actually Jirto. So with that in mind, and with an apology for my bad Chinese, Jirto is the author, Chinese name of the author of the Sandokai. In talk number eight, Suzuki Roshi reflects on the next lines of Jirto's poem. In the light, there is darkness, but don't take it as darkness. And in the darkness, there is light, but don't see it as light. This is one of the talks that I spent quite a bit of time with and thinking about. What I particularly valued in this talk is the example he gave to help to explain this working of light and darkness in a very practical way like how does that show up in our actual experience of life you know the one that we all have going around you know today's the day i had lunch a little while ago and later on we'll have dinner and what is with this light and dark in terms of my my actual my actual living of it

[07:58]

So he gives the example of preparing food for a celebration down at Tassajara, which is about to take place. It's the wedding of Ed Brown and his wife, soon to be wife, Meg. And so everyone's busy. We used to do these big weddings when all of us were young and there were a lot of marriages going on and babies were being created. So it was quite a celebration that the whole community would get together and make the meal. And then we put all the food out on a big banquet table. So Roshi says that when we dish out all these various foods and put them there on the table separately, you know, there's the salad, there's the cheese, there's the bread and the soup and so on, that this assortment is the light that's in the light. And if you can remember from an earlier chapter when he talks about Ji and Ri, so Ji is a phenomenal world. The world of things that we see, that we have names for, you know, the multitude of things. As in the title, Sandokai, it's the San, San meaning three, the many things which are all separated from one another.

[09:05]

And that's how we put them on the table. And that's how they look. And that's how we think about them. But when we eat the food, you know, when we put it all on our plate and start to eat it, then everything gets all mixed up. You know, what happened to the salad? Where'd the bread go? Where'd the soup go? And pretty soon, it's just this kind of invisible or dark. It's in the dark, this event of our digestion, you know, in our stomachs. There's no more soup. There's no more salad, no bread, no cheese. You know, it's in the dark. And there's no dessert either. That's kind of sad. And yet, at the same time that these different things are coming together, that's when they work. That's when they start to do the work. So the food is really just the same as it was on the table. But until it changes form and starts to do the work of feeding us, it has no value. It has no true value for us. So in utter darkness, he says, this is how things happen. In the light, we can kind of feel good looking at all that food and looking forward to eating all of our preferences.

[10:08]

However, that food will not serve any purpose for us. It's just a concept. It's just something we see in our visual field. But it does not feed our hunger. So light is the light of difference and of preferences. Like, oh, donuts, right? So donuts will not help us until they vanish into our stomach. So zazen is like this too. When we think about sitting or we complain about sitting or the early hour or we say how much we enjoy it or how much we hate it, But actually, it's only when we're doing zazen that the work begins, the work happens. When we're both the light and the dark side are there together, you can't really tell which is which. Is this the work or is this the idea I have about the work? Is this zazen or is this just me thinking about zazen? These two are turning on each other and you can't take hold of either one. So that's the example of food and zazen helping us to understand.

[11:11]

how important these two terms are for us. He also uses the example of the skin on our body. And we say things like my skin or my hand. And he says, well, the skin and the hand don't feel so good when we say things like that. But aren't I the body? Isn't the skin the body? Isn't this you? Is it really there's a person here that has a hand? Or isn't the hand the person? So we have this way of thinking about ourselves, of thinking about the world, that's very separating, like my hand is very separating. So it's not so much that we don't want to talk like that anymore, because that wouldn't be possible. You know, we really are going to go on talking like this. But we need to understand that it's just talk. It's just what we say. It doesn't actually, it isn't actually true that this is my skin or my hand. You know, there's no way, there is no, there's no my, there's no skin, there's no separation. There's no dualistic reality in which we can be separate from these different parts that appear.

[12:16]

We just talk like that. And it's okay. It's okay to talk like that, but not if we don't remember. And in which case, there can be very disturbing parts of that way of talking, as we know. My enemy, my friend, my possessions, all the ways that this claiming or possessing for oneself, turns into greed or turns into hoarding, turns into all kinds of negative or what can be called these pathological emotions that all center around the idea of me and mine and what belongs to me and what doesn't belong to me. So the importance of this light and dark really is for us to stop being stuck on just the light side, on just the preference side, or on just the side where we get to say what is and what isn't mine. So this is a way of kind of unscrewing that nut that's gotten tightened down around self-clinging.

[13:18]

Start to loosen it up so we can begin to think differently, more freely, really. And then the other side, so that's the side of light, of G, how we can go wrong over there. The other side, so these are the dualities, light and dark are two ways of thinking. The other side, the darkness side, if we fall into the darkness and without thinking of differences, well, that's not right either. So either side is leaning too far. One side is illuminated, the other is dark. Picking one basically is either way. Pick one and you're wrong. Choosing one and neglecting the other is wrong. Both sides are wrong. Because both sides are right, are true. You have to have them both. So he says that if you're just coming from darkness of non-differentiation, like you've kind of turned neutral somehow in your view of the world. If you meet a friend and you don't notice their hair color, you don't notice the shape of their nose or what they're wearing, then you're not really meeting your friend.

[14:20]

You're just meeting your own mind, which has stopped allowing itself to view things in terms of differences. Looking at the world from darkness or from non-differentiation is just as one-sided as looking at it from the light of preferences. So either way, you're stuck. You're stuck on the darkness or you're stuck on the light. So no matter how we look or what we think, you still are you and your friend is still your friend. And there is the appearance of difference right there. Light and dark together. As he says in... referring to the title of the sandokai. You know, the san is the many, the do is the one, and they're good friends. They're shaking hands, not forgetting that they're always shaking hands. They're always compliments with an e, complimenting one another. So then he goes on to talk about good and bad. So in some ways, they're going from a sort of a very simple example.

[15:22]

The idea of food, that's kind of simple, sort of neutral. We don't have big problems there. And then they get into this idea of how we treat our friends, how we look at the world. Now he's talking about good and bad. So the actual moral component of how these two terms, the dark and the light, complement and turn on each other and create a world where we decide this is good. This is bad. That person is good. That person is bad. And we get stuck there. I think we've all had that experience of someone hurts our feelings or is mean to us, and they're just mean, you know, forevermore. We see them that way. It's very difficult to take that sense of they're being mean or unkind or bad. You know, once we've got it set inside, it's a very difficult thing to break open. And so it's good to remember sometimes that, you know, of course they're not always bad. You've seen them do other things. And you know that you're not always bad and you're not always good.

[16:25]

That each one of us has these tendencies toward irritability or toward unkindness or toward, you know, getting involved in other people's business. Whatever it is, we all have those tendencies of being well-received by others or not so well-received by others. And that also helps us to remember that we're just like them. that we are not different. We humans have so much in common, which is why when my friend gets angry at me, I get angry at them. You know, we're so close, we're so intimate that we actually share these feelings. They become, that's part of this, you know, shaking hands, even though in this case, it's shaking them with kind of a little bit of a, maybe not kind of a tight squeeze or something. So light and dark, dark and light are always changing. Without some set view or some permanent truth. Not always mean. Not always kind. You know, things are moving.

[17:25]

They're changing. So what's happening right now? What's meeting you right now? There's a Zen saying, you know, what is it that thus comes? Am I open and curious? Or do I know already? Have I already decided what it is? And I've already had my preferences are up and ready. So... As Buddhists, part of our primary practice is to learn how to shift our minds from one side to the other. I remember when I first came to Zen Center, I watched these teachers and they would oftentimes go, well, on the other hand, and I said, what is with this on the other hand? And I think that's what they probably learned from Suzuki Roshi is like, you offer something from one side here on the one side and then on the other hand or on the other side. So it really was quite... drawn to this gesture and i think i probably use it myself quite a bit as well on the other hand so then Suzuki Roshi teaches this poem which is about the blue mountain and the white cloud blue mountains and white clouds it's a very old familiar zen metaphor of the blue mountain sometimes it means the teacher the white clouds are the students

[18:40]

Or the Blue Mountain can be yourself and your zazen posture and the white clouds are your thoughts that are kind of gathered around. So it's a very useful image for either yourself as a single or for the community as a whole. The mother is the Blue Mountain and the children are the white clouds. All day long they are together, yet they do not know who is the mother and who are the children. Again, this is this intimacy that when you're together, when you're involved in activity together, you're not looking at yourselves as separate. You're just there. You're there in the house. You're playing. You're fixing dinner. You're washing the dishes. You're doing these things. You're sitting on the couch. Whatever things you're doing together or with your friends. We don't actually think in terms of like, oh, I'm the mountain and you're the clouds. You know, that's a way that we step back. When we step back from our activity, we can start thinking of it in those terms.

[19:42]

But mostly in the middle of the activity, some of us probably have been watching the Olympics. You know, when you're out there in the soccer field, you're not going like, oh, there's the halfback, there's the goalie. You're just moving. You know, you're moving. You're getting that ball to whoever that is over there. And you've practiced these moves so long that you don't need the concepts. You just really need to get that ball down to that side of the field. So again, he says that this is very much like the experience that we have in Zazen. And you're sitting there, which I hope many of you do. I hope you take that time in your day. And the birds are singing and the river is making noise, running by. The insects are making noise. We hear all of that. but we're not having ideas about that. We're not thinking, oh, that's the stream. The stream starts up in the mountains and runs down to the ocean. You know, we're not conceptualizing. That's such a relief, actually, when sitting, that there's just the sound of the stream, sound of the valley streams, just the sounds of the birds.

[20:46]

You're not thinking, oh, I'm sitting zazen. I mean, that would be kind of silly. So you're just sitting on a black cushion. That's all. just like a blue mountain surrounded by white clouds. So what I really enjoyed about these chapters, part of what is recorded there is because these were recordings that were transcribed, they're actually the questions from the students about the lectures that he gave. And some of them are really quite wonderful, quite fun. So this is one in this chapter, chapter eight. So Suzuki Roshi has been talking about this this side and that side. And some of you may feel very much like these students says, why is he doing this? What is this for? We were having such a nice time with our sweet teacher, sitting zazen and moving some stones around, building some walls, doing different things. And so what's this all about? So this student says to him, Roshi, what about focus? You said that the clouds don't know they're the children of the mountain and vice versa.

[21:49]

So as you were saying, in the midst of the activity, you're not thinking like, well, I'm the mountain and those are the clouds. He said, but this student then says, but we humans open and arrange our eating bowls. We focus on that without listening to the stream. It is a different activity. And Suzuki Roshi says, no, it's the same activity. And the student says, for me, it's different. And Suzuki Roshi says, and that's why you get the stick. So I'm going to give you a whack and laughing. It says laughing. When you really focus, there is light and darkness together. But when you are thinking about it, there are two sides. So when you're really focused, when you're really concentrated, when you're sitting quietly on your black cushion, then light and dark are together. They're not separate. They're not distinguished. But when you're thinking about it, then there are two sides. Now you are, as he's talking to the student, now you're asking me a question, he says to this young person.

[22:51]

And when you're asking a question, you're thinking. So it's very hard for me to answer your question. You can sort of feel it in how the students challenged him. Well, that's not what I think, you know. He says, you ask me a question and you're thinking. So it's very hard for me to answer your question. So I have to get, maybe I have to get angry with you. That's the only way. If you get hit... you will probably stop thinking about it. Now this, you know, this is very much like Shito's, Jirto's experience with his teacher. You know, he's thinking, he's coming up with all these great intellectual explanations about the Buddha Dharma, all of which he's read and studied, he's mastered all of these sutras and stuff. And he's going on and on and doing something very similar with this teacher that this student and many of the students are doing with Suzuki Roshi. There's challenging, you know, asking questions. The feeling of the questions are like, you know, hitting the ball hard over the net. They're not actually like, oh, could you show me how to hit the balls? You know, so there's this feeling of confrontation that you can sense and certainly that I've seen and that I've done with the teacher.

[23:59]

So, you know, and then Shurto, when his teacher finally has enough of the intellectual, you know, banter, he just whacks him gently in the face with his whisk, you know. Stop it. Stop thinking. Let it go. Just be here. Just being. The stage of being. The stage of being right here on your black cushion. Nothing's bothering you. Just aware. Just the blue mountain with the white clouds. What a lovely day. So then he talks about karma. in this chapter. Karma is a very big word. I think most of us back in the 60s thought it meant something like fate, you know, your karma. That's your karma. That's the result of your actions. But actually, it really means, in Buddhism, it means simply action, things that you do. So, you know, he says, if you understand your life only in terms of the dualistic notion of karma, meaning that if I do a bad action, then a bad...

[25:09]

result will happen. Or if I do a good action, a good result will happen. You know, we kind of fall into that way of thinking. We hope that's what will happen. If I do make some good investments, then I'll get a good return and that kind of stuff. Get a good grade if I study hard and that kind of thing. So we have this dualistic understanding of reality that this leads to that. And that leads to this, meaning that there are two things, dualism. There's this and then there's that. This is also called this, that causality. So, you know, it's a little tricky, but it's actually not that hard for us to understand because we do it all the time. It's how we tell stories. This happened, and then that happened. First this, and then that. So we do tend to think, our tendency is to think in terms of a narrative that starts with once upon a time, there are... This thing was going on and these people were there and these things happened and then they lived happily ever after.

[26:13]

So this is storytelling. This is how we tell stories. And stories are fantasies. They're illusions. They're like the example of taking a burning stick and just turning it like that in the air and you'll see a circle. But there's no circle there. It's just an illusion. So stories create illusions for us. The meaningful in the sense of we fall into whatever the story is telling us, we fall into some kind of meaning there. But really the meaning is just this burning stick turning around. Like I said last week, the meaning of the moon is the moon itself. The meaning of the lamp is the lamp itself. The meaning of each of us is... Ourself, each of us ourselves. So even so, karma or this and that causality is okay.

[27:16]

I mean, it's true in the light, in the side of differences, which is called the relative truth, the truth about relationships. And relative truth explanations can be given. We can explain how things work. However, in the ultimate truth, in the ultimate sense, in the darkness of non-duality, karma doesn't exist at all. There is no this, that causality. You can't find it. You can't find how this connects to that. Because there's, for one thing, there's only just this moment. There's only present reality. So where's the next thing? And where's later? And where's before? Right now. Earlier today, I could say I was doing this, this, and this. But where'd it go? And later today, I'm going to be doing this, isn't it? Those are my stories. But where are they now? So in fact, in reality, in the dark, there are no two things. It's our storytelling that creates it, creates the world.

[28:20]

And that's okay. That's what we do. We're storytellers. That's the light. Right in light, there's darkness. You can't find it. Right there in the story, the story is sort of all of its own. It's kind of like a dandelion puff, just or like smoke. So karma doesn't exist at all in truth. And so this is a tricky part because one of the problems for practitioners is that when they come to some understanding or realization that karma doesn't exist, it's really the dark. It's really just dark, actually. There is nothing happening. There appears to be things happening. There appear to be various magical creations happening. coming before our eyes, sparkles in our eyes and so on. There's a tendency to fall into the dark side. And then in that way, to not take care of the relative truth, the truth about our relationships.

[29:23]

And this tendency to fall into the darkness is called the Zen sickness. And it's a very real thing. And it's a very, very hard thing to bring someone out of that. It's rather convincing. when you lock yourself into this non-dual experience of reality, it can be, you know, a very powerful and free sense of freedom, but it's a kind of freedom of being locked in of things can't get you anymore. You know, Oh, I'm so sorry. You feel that way about me. It's like, I'm fine in here. And it's just, you're just seems to be having some problems with me. And that's a problem. You know, that's basically a, You know, it's a sickness. It's called an illness. We should be impacted by things in the world. Both truths, the relative truth and the ultimate truth are both truths, and they're both true. This is the good friends. They're both light and dark, are both coexisting at all times. It's just how we look at it, how we explain it.

[30:25]

That's what's different. So if you're, you know, if you're... not turning from one side to the other, and that you think whatever you do is okay, because there's no cause and effect. There's no this and that or self or other. And then you're stuck in this idea of darkness. So we always need to be studying our activity from both sides and looking for the best way to do whatever it is, you know, one thing after the other. So we'll see how this works. Recently, I've noticed recently in the past few years, One of the ways we talk about things at Green Gulch is to say, well, let's experiment. Let's experiment with this idea. Let's experiment with changing the schedule. Let's experiment with a new program rather than, you know, thinking that, oh, this is going to be good or this will be great. Let's try this out. Here's our project for tomorrow. Let's just... Let's just see how this works. This is a provisional experiment and we'll try it. And if we like it, we'll try it some more.

[31:26]

And if we don't like it, well, maybe we'll do something different. So I think that's I've really appreciated that approach. Most of us seem to be willing to experiment with things. But if you came in with a program, it'd be very hard to get it passed through the senior staff saying, nope, you know. So let's just try and see if it works out or not. So I have another student asking the teacher a question about truth. This is toward the end of this chapter. So the student says, Roshi, what is the difference between understanding things or activities from both sides and not understanding them at all? What is the difference between understanding them from both sides? or from not understanding them at all. And Suzuki Risha says, oh, there's no need to talk about not understanding at all. And he laughs. If you have a chance to listen to a lecture or read a book, you will understand something.

[32:30]

The truth is the truth. There are not two truths. There is only one. When you understand truth only with your mind, you may feel that that's the truth. So this is this intellectual understanding. But compared to your actual activity or your feeling or your life, the truth that you understand with your mind is not the actual truth. Because our actual life is not as easy as our thinking, it is easy to be convinced that some idea we have is the perfect truth. Yet for us, it's not true because that kind of thinking does not accord with our actual life. Our actual life is ungraspable. It's so difficult to say, well, what is your actual life right now? Can you tell us? Can I tell you? I can't. It's vast beyond the complexity of the present moment and all of the objects that are swarming around me at the moment, as well as all of the thoughts and feelings that are swarming in me at the moment would be impossible to capture.

[33:39]

However, I can have some ideas about things which are I can write them down. I could speak them. I could explain them to you. And I feel like, oh, now I'm on good ground. Now I'm on safe ground here. I can explain things intellectually that I couldn't possibly explain in terms of my actual living of it, the actual life of it. So there are these two ways of understanding the truth. One way is this intellectual truth. We understand, we say, but that understanding is just intellectual understanding. Whether we understand it or not, truth is truth. Whether Buddha appeared in this world or not, truth is truth. In the second way, something may be true for a Buddha or an enlightened person, but for us, it's not true. We cannot accept the fundamental truth as it is, so for us, it does not seem to be true. That is the truth that we work with in our practice. From the viewpoint of our practice, truth is not always true. So we practice because we don't get it.

[34:42]

What? Like this student's asking this question, you know. I don't get it, Roshi. And Roshi's saying, well, that's our practice. You don't get it. You don't get the truth. The one about this very moment, complete, just as it is. The truth of darkness. We don't get it because we can't explain it. We can't speak about it. We can't describe it. It doesn't bear a description, you know. The darkness doesn't have characteristics. Even though we can sense it, we are it. We're completely... both of and in it, at the same time, we can't get a hold of it. So it's very frustrating. But that's our practice, trying to get a hold of the truth that can't be grasped. And there's no choice. That's what we have to do. Although many practitioners in Buddhist time... Oh, no, that's another part. Leave that out. Okay. I have one more of these at the end of the next chapter. Let's see what time we have. Oh, it's good. Fine. So I want to try and finish these talks if I can in the next week or so.

[35:48]

So this next talk, number nine, Suzuki Roshi talks about a verse, the Sandokai verse that says, light and dark oppose one another like the front and back foot in walking. So here's another way to look at the two truths of light and dark, of a phenomenon. and of that which cannot be described. The non-dual nature of reality, and then the appearance of the two things, like you and me, or right and wrong, all these dualistic notions. Our thinking is dualistic. Reality is not dualistic. Reality does not come in parts. It's us, how we think about it, that creates parts. So light and dark oppose one another, like the front and back foot in walking. I've always liked this verse. I can remember from early on in my time at Zen Center when we chant the Sandokai, that this verse would kind of whiz by. And I thought, oh, like the front and back foot and walking. It's so hard to grasp, you know, like, is it, which is the front foot when you're walking, you know, or running, you know, wait a minute.

[36:53]

They keep changing your left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot, light and dark, dark and light. Yeah. The two things. So these opposing qualities that he uses in teaching these verses are all about our character. I once heard a teacher say that basically Buddhism is about building our character, about our virtue and about our strength. So in this chapter, Suzuki Roshi is talking about character. He's talking about a kind of stamina, but also a stamina that we build through practice. It's very gentle. and also very flexible. So Roshi uses this Japanese saying that the willow tree cannot be broken by the snow. The willow tree cannot be broken by the snow to illustrate this quality. The willow is both flexible and it's strong. So the snow comes down and it just bends. The leaves just bend down and then the snow falls off. It's like bamboo is the same. It'll bend over and then it just pops right back up again.

[37:57]

So when I was learning how to be a parent long ago to my daughter, something I think is very challenging to learn, having had parents. I don't know. How did they do that? I don't know. They never really talked about it much. But one of the most important things I learned as I was studying parenting, and I tried reading some books and asking other parents and so on, was that you need to be both firm and kind. You know, not just one or the other. If you're only kind, the child doesn't find their way or know who you really are. And I remember my therapist at the time was very kind and helpful to me. He kept telling me, you have to show your daughter how you feel. You know, you can't you can't just be nice, you know, always be nice when she's being stubborn or sassy, disrespectful. At that time, she was probably maybe four, three or four. And so I was, you know, I was being a nice mom and my own version of being nice.

[39:03]

So one time my daughter was in the tub and she was splashing and I kept saying, honey, we've got to get going now. It's time to go. Would you please get out of the tub? Would you please stop splashing? And, you know, and she just kept splashing me and she just kept looking at me with this, you know, challenging smile on her face. And so I thought, OK, this is the time, you know, I'm going to show her how I feel. So I said, you know, I'm really getting upset with you right now. And she looked at me like, what? You know, and I said, no, I really am. She said. Well, you can't do that. Oh, I can't. I said, yes, I can. And I took a towel that was hanging, a bunch of towels hanging from the bar above the tub, and I threw it on the ground. And she said, you can't do that. I said, oh, I can. And I took another one and I threw it on the ground. And then she got out of the tub and she took a towel and she threw it on the ground. And we both had this kind of wonderful confrontation with feelings. And it was just amazing. I mean, I felt transformed as a parent.

[40:03]

I felt like, yeah, show her how I feel. It certainly wasn't the end of our relationship. And it was certainly a really good addition to our relationship. And I probably got much better at it as she got older. And I'm still pretty good at it now. I can tell her how I feel. So the front and the back foot and walking. You know, the second verse is a very good way. to explain the oneness of how pairs work in terms of opposites. The front and back foot helps us to understand how opposites function together in our everyday life. There's light and dark, there's right and wrong, there's self and other, like the front and back foot in walking, delusion and enlightenment, weak and strong, same or different, left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot, sometimes weak, sometimes strong, sometimes learning, sometimes teaching others. They're complements. Each of these belongs on a continuum from this is light and then light at its depth is darkness.

[41:07]

Darkness at its depth is light. Same thing with right and wrong. Right is connected to wrong or that which isn't so helpful or wholesome to be doing. And same thing the other way. So we don't want to leave one side out. And just hold on to one. No fixed moral code. You know, our moral code is something that we learn by teaching to others. Suzuki Rishi says that after the war in Japan, his neighbors, the whole nation, was really distraught with this loss because they had a moral code that they all believed. And they actually believed the moral code would bring victory. You know, there was a kind of one-mindedness about how this was going to all... turn out and that their virtue as a nation, as a people, would prove itself in victory. So when that didn't happen, when at the end of the war, the moral code was shattered.

[42:09]

And so Suzuki Roshi said to his neighbors, you know, the best way for you to know your moral code is by not trying to help yourself. But he said, it's by the way you raise your children. He said, when you raise them, you will naturally know the moral code for yourself as well. And this moral code is in order to help others. That's why it's there. That's why you help your children, not just firm and not just kind, but learning how and when, which is appropriate. When is this the appropriate response? When is this the appropriate response? The one you find to help others will be good for you as well. So that's moral code as not a set piece, not some kind of pledge that we make, but actually something we learn from inside by our own experience. And then he ends this chapter by saying that light and darkness, although a pair of opposites, are equal, just like your feet when you walk.

[43:11]

If you think too hard about which one is ahead and which is behind, you won't be able to walk or to run. Just walking is our way. just sitting or just being ourselves completely. Front foot, back foot, front foot, back foot. So there's another exchange I want to share. This one is at the end of this chapter. And the student says to him, I sometimes wonder if this is the same person asking these questions. I have some trouble with the relevancy of this lecture. I'd like you to say more about it. but I don't know what. I can't quite see what it's all about. I do understand what it's about when you're talking about opposites and things like that. But I don't understand the purpose. And so Suzuki Rishi says, the purpose of what I am saying is to open a different approach to your understanding of reality. You are observing things from just one side or from the other side, and you stick to some one-sided understanding.

[44:17]

That is why I am talking this way. It is necessary. Strictly speaking, Buddhists have no teaching. We have no God. We have no deity. In fact, we don't have anything. What we have is nothingness. That's all. So how is it possible for Buddhists to be religious? What kind of composure do we have? That would be a good question. And the answer is not some special kind of idea about God or about a deity, but rather... to have an understanding of reality itself, the one that we are always facing. Where are we? What are we doing? Who is that? Who is he? Who is she? When we observe things in this way, we don't need some kind of special teaching about God because everything is God for us. Moment after moment, we are facing God. And each one of us is also God or Buddha.

[45:18]

So we don't need any special idea of God. And that may be the most important point. So that's up through the next couple of chapters. And I would be very happy to open the conversation now with you. If you'd like to bring up questions or comments or anything at all. Hi, Guy. Hi, Fu. That last question and response was really great. That may be the most important point. Like he said, it really, really resonated with me. And something that that I think was at least that really helped me in terms of the blue mountains and the white clouds in sitting in the process of letting go of thought, I would say if it's a process or, you know, trying to just sit in where the blue mountain does disturb the white clouds was another saying that I don't know if it was part in that poem or not.

[46:46]

And it's something that really connected to where You know, if you work to let the thoughts settle and you're just shaking up the when you're disturbing the white clouds, you know, the more that you let the thinking be thinking and and, you know, things as it is, the more it becomes apparent in a way or or it becomes felt in a way, like you said, feeling the the nothingness, but also, you know, how clearly we can see, you know, how we separate things and compartmentalize it. And the moment that I heard that and I felt that it was something like my dualistic creations became really apparent, especially in sitting, you know, when it's like, whoa, suddenly everything was one. And then I take the thought and I like, all right, let's push everything away. Let's separate it. So that's something. But yeah,

[47:47]

Yeah, I just felt, especially that last response was really powerful. The way that he interacts and the way that he speaks and the way that it all relates, it's something really, really powerful. It reminds me of the lecture where he said that there, you know, really, there are no precepts and there's no one to break the precepts. But, you know, what's most important is following the precepts. You know, so it's... All I can say is thank you. Thank you, Roshi, for saving us all. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, there was another woman, a nun. She was taking the full Vinaya precepts in the Theravadan tradition. Someone asked her, there are 311 of those. I may have quoted this recently. Somebody asked her, how do you maintain 311 precepts? And she said... I don't. I only maintain one precept. And they said, which one is that?

[48:49]

And she said, I watch my mind. Yeah. It's the greatest show on earth. Yeah, right. Exactly. The only one. Yeah, exactly. What else do we know? But it's something... It's something that I thought really interesting and really I related to in the question of focus and in trying to be mindful, which sounds funny even when I say it, where it's the sort of you're thinking about the activity rather than just doing the activity. And it's a separation where, you know, for a long time, I was just in my own train of thought and just like a zombie and doing things. And now it's like the next... is thinking about the activity where it's still not. But then some moments, I think we were talking of it, even like when, oh, I remember you had mentioned when someone was performing a piece of music where it's like, that's it. There's no thinking about the performance.

[49:50]

That is it. That's all that's being done. And I thought it was a really interesting response. You know, no, no, no, you think there's focus, but... But, you know, where's the stick? That's why sometimes we all need the stick, you know. Yeah. The whisk. The whisk. Yeah. Like Lisa said, where's that feature? Yeah. We put that on our computers. Right. Yeah. But thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah. The zombie comes to life, huh? Yeah. Yeah. Anyone else want to share? Make some noise. Oh, good, Tim. Hi, Tim. I was just visiting my friends, the Therabad and Bikunis up in the Santa Cruz Mountains. I just got back from there, and there's only two of them living at their little monastery, and they're clearing brush in the redwood forest.

[51:01]

Ayachita Nanda, who's, she came down the hill wearing, she had her robes on, but she's wearing bright orange protective gear, like personnel, personal protective equipment from working on brush and an advisor with a helmet with bright orange stuff. And nowhere in those 311 rules can wear, protective personal, you know, protection equipment, this bright orange. But in the theme of what you're saying is she's watching her mind and she needs to wear that protective equipment to do her work on the Vahara. It was, again, they continue to surprise me of my, not what they're doing, but my own preconceptions about what they're doing. You know, I just let that go. Yes, good for you.

[52:01]

Really fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a gift to have your preconceptions, you know, messed with. Whoops. Whoops. There goes another one. There goes another one. All right. Thank you for that. Until they're all gone. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Good luck with that. Yeah. Yeah. They're more on the way. It's, you know, endless supply. They're waiting on the wings. Yes, they are. Waiting for some room to come in. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. We're so lucky. It's so cold here at Green Gorge. You know, I'm wearing sweaters and stuff, and I'm thinking, those poor people out there in the heat. You know, I mean... I wish we could share some of this air conditioning we've got. But the hotter it gets over there in the Central Valley, the colder it gets at Gringo.

[53:04]

This morning, it was practically raining. The fog was so thick. I thought, oh, God. I used to complain about the fog. But I think I'm beginning to turn. One side is illuminated. The other side is very hot. So anyway, we are blessed. else? Is that good? We're good to go. Oh, hi. Hi, Miriam. Can you hear me? Yes. I am still trying to understand the two sides. I always think, and maybe we've spoken about it before, I always feel there is like a reconciling force, whatever that might mean. So I always think sittings, I am in Zazen sitting upright, that that's the reconciling force between light and dark, that there's something, not necessarily, maybe unites it, or it's sort of like chemistry, right and left, and then there's something gets created out of that right and left.

[54:24]

So I'm not sure that's very Zen, but I'm always looking that things kind of get mixed in and they rub against each other and they create something that's a third thing or something different. And I can feel it when I am in a long day of sitting, sitting Zazen. It's not my mind. It doesn't the body hurt, and there's moments where it's just I am there sitting, and I feel that that reconciles something. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. Totally. But do we – do you – I mean, we move from light to dark, light to dark, but what do we learn or what do we – When we're in light, do we see light?

[55:25]

When we're in dark, do we see dark? Or we're just kind of just letting things happen and there's nothing that gets created out of that. That's sort of what I'm struggling with. And I don't hear enough of that, except when I'm sitting sasen. Well, I would say what came to mind right away is the repeated verse in the Vasudhi Maga, which is the manual for purification from the old wisdom teachings, the Theravada teachings. At the end of each chapter, there are all these chapters on how to practice. The first is morality, how to practice in Samadhi with meditation, concentration. And how to practice wisdom. And each of them has these very specific practices that you can do. And I was quite interested in that when I was down at Tassajara living as a monk, monastic. And I really wanted to do the real practice, you know, the real old kind of practice.

[56:30]

And so I was doing those practices. And then I got to the end of the chapter and it said, when you do these practices, you do these practices. And when you stop doing them, that means you've stopped doing them. That was it. And then it says these practices are to bring joy to humankind. So when you said that, I thought, yes, of course, there is a product there to bring joy to humankind. Yes. Joy is not happiness. Joy is a whole other category. It's kind of long, long field of spaciousness and contentment and relief, you know. When there's enough room inside for whatever it is that's arriving, you know, the light parts, the sparkles that come in, it's fine. Or a little dark little bugs come in, it's fine. That there's something about cultivating the life, the joy of being alive, that I do think is the outcome that was intended by the Buddhist teaching and the outcome that he found for himself.

[57:35]

To bring joy to humankind. What a nice thing to do. That really touches me. I think, you know, we use the word compassion a lot, but I think that for me that joy or something is what is a compassionate nature to bring to the world, if that makes sense. But I think you just nailed it for me. with that joy thing, that made a lot of sense. Well, here's to Lachaim, the life, the great blessing, you know, birth is Bodhi, we are awake, we're all awake, and we just don't know, we're blinking, you know, we're like, what, what is it, where are we, who am I, you know, yeah, well, you'll never know, is that okay?

[58:38]

You know, I sometimes I've always known to get mad, quote unquote, at God and say, what are you doing? Please stop it already. You know, I get very indignant about certain things. So. Yeah. Well, maybe you're the one that made him mad. I'll show you. We're not sure who did it. But anyway, I like the idea that we're. That God is everything we see. And that that's us too. You know, in the Lotus Sutras, Buddha and Buddha together. Everything you see is the awakened nature of reality. And you are the awakened nature of reality. There's the true non-separation. Awakening and awakening. Always, you know. It's just, we just think funny things. You know, the more, like Guy was saying, the more you realize how funny your thinking is. I mean, and it becomes actually funny and not just, you know, like scary funny. The lighter.

[59:40]

Things become much lighter. Like, really? I'm thinking that? It's so wacky. You know, so the less we take ourselves seriously, you know, it doesn't mean we don't do our jobs or we don't care about the world. Of course we do. But if we can enter into the conversation relaxed and open and willing to experiment, I think things will go so much better in our efforts to work together, you know, which is probably the biggest challenge we have on the planet. How do we work together to keep this place healthy for all of us, you know? Yeah. I don't know. Thank you, Marion. Thank you, sweetie. It's right up six. All right. Thank you all so much for coming and joining in the conversation as you're able.

[60:43]

I really like it. Anytime you want to bring up some thoughts or ideas, greatly appreciate it. And I'm hoping to finish the Sandokai lectures next time and then go on to the next exciting enlightened ancestor. We're working our way toward Dongshan. He was the founder of Soto Zen and also the five ranks. which is kind of an interesting in terms of the question you all are asking about the light and dark. The five ranks are basically an exposition of this turning up from the light to the dark. One's dominant, then the other's dominant, and then they're together, and then they're exclusive, and then they're host within the host. That's the final step. So we'll talk about that. That's a really kind of a fun one. We just don't, as Dogen warns, don't make it into a system. Don't build a ladder. Don't make a ladder and then climb up these things because you're just wasting time. So anyway, thank you so much. And if you'd like to unmute to say goodbye, please welcome.

[61:49]

Thank you, Phu. Thank you, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. See you next week. Yes. Thank you. Stay tuned for the final chapter. Thank you, Fu. Much love. Same to you all. Same to you all. Thank you, Fu. Bye, guys. The final chapter. I know. Don't miss it. Wouldn't even think of that possibility. Yeah. Hi, Richard. Hi. Bye-bye. Good to see you. Good to see you, too. We'll be talking soon. Yes. Good. Thank you. All right. Good night. Bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Sophia, Jeff, good to see you both. Pogetsu, thank you. You're welcome.

[62:52]

You're the best. Very best. She hangs in there all day long. Oh, look at her new dragon. That's cool. Great. Nice one. I want that. That's a cool avatar. Very cool. Is that yours, Richard? That little dragon? Is that yours? No, who's it? There's a little dragon on the screen. Maybe you can't see it. It's just right there. What's their name? There's no name of mystery. Mystery little baby dragon. All right. Richard, see you soon. Kogetsu, we'll see you sooner. Thank you for setting up the date with Richard, by the way. That's Richard. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. All right. Have a good night, y'all. Yeah, you too. All right. Good night.

[63:48]

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