Mmm. you. Thank you.

[08:43]

So, yeah, just . Oh, tree bones. It makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. You can stay in, like, an odd scene because there's one thing there that it's called humanness. And it's, like, a bunch of, like, they build a fort and they put a bed in there. And you can see for, like, $200 a night, you can stay with, like, humanness. But there's all these things that, like, it's not protected from the elements. You can, like, see this guy through it. So, like, we're going to tend to these brains. I was like, no, we're failures. We're not doing that. Yeah.

[09:44]

Yeah. Very old. Oh, it's from Carmen? Oh, so it's really good. I thought it was supposed to be about when I didn't write news here. No, that's where Greenville is. Greenville, she's in there. It's how the virus in there comes off on the whole value of it. Okay. Like where are we going? Hmm? Where are we going to that way?

[10:54]

Well, that's Farming on Valley Road, which is further east. Jack's on the phone. I did not have Actually, I have a bottle. My parents are coming next weekend, actually. And we're going to stay in this festival.

[11:58]

They're actually going on a lifetime trip to Indonesia. We're going to Russian pot next week. Now you're staying on a boat for seven days. And a treating and perfect dharma is rarely in bad way.

[19:20]

Even in a hundred thousand million galpas, having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. An unsurpass penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with, even in a hundred thousand million kalpas. Having it to see and listen to, do remember and accept. I vow. Good morning, Green Dragon Assembly, and welcome to our visitors today.

[20:38]

Do I understand correctly that you all are from an Asian philosophy class at UC Davis? Well, we'll have to bring up some Asian philosophy today for you. And welcome to all those in Zoom land. Many of you may know Zen tradition often presents its teachings and stories, anecdotes of the ancient Zen ancestors. Sometimes there are dialogues amongst various people.

[21:44]

And sometimes they're very hard to understand what's going on. So today I'll bring up one of these stories, an old Zen koan, but it's a simple one. And it's not even, it's kind of a dialogue, but it's a dialogue someone's having with himself. This is case number 12 in the Gateless Barrier collection of Zen koans called Ruyen calls master. And the story goes like this. Every day, Ruyen called out to himself, master, and answered himself, yes. Then he would say, yes.

[22:47]

Be aware. And answer, yes. Don't be deceived by others. Yes, yes. That's case number 12 in the gateless barrier collection. Every day, this then teacher would talk to himself that way apparently it wasn't even just like a an internal silent conversation he was having himself but he he'd uh come up on the seat to give these kind of zen talks and he he talked that way day in and day out So a little bit of background on this Zen teacher, Ruyian, who lived in the ninth century in China, the golden age of Zen.

[24:01]

He's in the lineage of Shirtou, one of our Zen ancestors. disciple of Yento. Ruyen means an auspicious cliff. His name is Auspicious Cliff and his teacher's name is Clifftop. Yento. often we hear the stories of these Zen teachers when they were younger, they had some kind of pivotal conversations that shifted their perspective, these awakening stories when they first opened to a new perspective.

[25:08]

So this is a story when Ru Yen was practicing with his teacher, Yen To, and And he asked his teacher, what is the fundamental constant principle? Which is the type of question that these Zen practitioners often asked. Sometimes they were interested in more practical matters, like... wears the broom. But most of the stories that get recorded, they're asking about the ultimate matter. And this is one way to talk about the ultimate truth. And try to understand what it is by asking the teacher, what is the fundamental or the original constant unchanging principle or reality?

[26:16]

Principle is one of those terms, li in Chinese, right? That in Asian philosophy is often used for like ultimate truth. There's the principle and there's phenomena. So we could say, what's the original unchanging reality? What's the fundamental constant principle? And the teacher, Yan To said, moving. the fundamental unchanging unmoving reality moving or it just moved and really the student said when moving what then and the teacher said then you don't see the fundamental constant principle And Ruyen stood there thinking, contemplating this in his own experience.

[27:31]

And the teacher Yanto said, if you understand conceptually, you are not yet free of the duality of mind and objects. if you don't understand, you'll be forever sunk in birth and death. And upon hearing these words, Ru Yan awakened. His perspective spontaneously shifted. He had a fresh take on how it is. Again, the teacher said, if you understand conceptually this point about the unchanging fundamental reality and how when there's moving or when you're moving, you don't see it even though

[28:49]

And the teacher said, if you understand this matter conceptually, then you can't be free of the duality, the separation between mind and objects. He literally said, between all the six senses, between eyes and colors, You won't be free of the duality of eyes and colors. You won't be free of the duality of ears and sounds, of nose and smells, of tongue and taste, of body and sensations, of mind and thoughts. So then we might think, okay, well we can't get it conceptually, so let's just like relax and kind of blank out.

[29:52]

Maybe we can get it like that. But if you don't understand it all, then you're just forever sunk in birth and death and samsara in this endless cycle. So maybe Ruyen solve this dilemma, solve it. and either trying to grasp it conceptually or trying to just ignore the matter are both not it. So somehow letting go of both of those extremes, he directly realized the fundamental constant principle. And then after that, after the shift of perspective, after some awakening, then every day he would call to himself master.

[31:01]

This word master can also be translated as host. In Zen, sometimes we talk about the host and the guest, this is the word. So maybe he, you could say he called himself host. Host? Yes. Maybe he called himself, he called out host or master when he had forgotten or lost touch with And what's the host? That which graciously hosts all guests. That which invites everyone in. That which allows every experience to come and go.

[32:16]

What a gracious host, non-discriminating host. Everyone's allowed in. They can have some tea, some conversation. They can stay as long as they want and they can go when they want. This kind of host is very gracious. It's our host. Everyone's host is the same host. This Zen Center's founder, Suzuki Roshi, called it Big Mind. He said, Big Mind includes everything within itself. In other words, Big Mind hosts. Everything is every particular experience that we call our life.

[33:28]

Suzuki Roshi said, big mind includes everything within itself. There's nothing outside of big mind. And therefore, big mind is not related to anything else. He says a small mind is the mind that's related to other minds and other beings and related to experiences. You might say related or dependent. So I would understand what Suzuki Oshii is saying. It's an interdependent mind. Sorry to say. is small mind as i would understand interdependent means related or related to to other minds or other experiences but this big mind is not related to anything why because there's nothing outside it to be related to in that way it's not interdependent with anything

[34:45]

It would need something in addition to itself, right, to be dependent on or related to. But there isn't anything other than itself. We could even go so far as to call it independent. But it's not some thing. It's like empty space. Big, gracious. host. And then all the guests that are welcome in the host's party, the guests can all relate to each other. And the guests are all enjoying the feast interdependently with each other. But the host is there's nothing other than outside the host.

[35:51]

Suzuki Hoshi also said, whatever you experience, and we could say within big mind, because he says everything is experienced within big mind. He says, whatever you experience is an expression of big mind. So in this kind of host, all the guests are actually just an expression of the host. They're like manifestations of the host. The host is actually expressing itself as the guests. This is maybe stretching the metaphor a little bit. We're talking about a party the host is hosting. Wait a second. These guests. at the host party are actually just a host. The host expressing herself as the many guests.

[37:00]

So this big mind, the host, can express itself as this particular person saying host. In other words, the host can call out host. And the host can answer that call. Yes. Is the caller And the call to are these two different people? Or is it just the host is expressing itself as a question? Master, host. The host is expressing itself as the word host.

[38:11]

And then particular reply comes. Yes. Also, nothing other than the host. Master. Host. Yes. Be aware. Be aware. This is... this Chinese character that's made up of mind, the radical for mind, and the radical for star or brightly shining planet. Do you know that one? Asian philosophers. So it's kind of like bright shining mind.

[39:18]

radiant, star-like mind. Be aware. And then he would go on conversing with himself. Don't be deceived by others. What are others? From the perspective of the host, the host that has no other, and others are kind of like an illusion. There is no other for the host, right? All the guests appearing are actually just expressions of the host.

[40:26]

manifestations of the host. The host appearing as guests within the host. The host within the host appearing temporarily as a guest. Don't be deceived by others. In other words, don't be deceived by thinking that there is another. Of course, others appear within this host and self appears within this host. But from the point of view of the host, these experiences of a subject like a self and an object like an other are

[41:29]

just simultaneous expressions of the one undivided host, indivisible host, appearing as a self and an other. But don't be deceived by thinking that the others are really other than the host and other than the subject the so-called self within the host from the perspective of the guests there's a self relating to another from the perspective of the host there's just infinite expressions arising and ceasing whose nature is nothing but the host The host conversing with itself in the temporary form of selves and others.

[42:40]

Don't be deceived by others. Yes. Yes. Okay. Who is this calling and who is this responding? What an absurd practice. Uyuyen practiced every day. This host is a knowing host. It is an aware host. It knows itself. Continuously. It's always knowing itself. But there's nothing outside of itself. So how does the host know itself? It knows itself by being itself.

[43:51]

It doesn't know itself in a subject-object dualistic kind of way. It can't help knowing itself. It is knowing. It is awareness itself. Aware of itself. By being itself. And it's never hidden. There's never a time where we're not aware. We can't lose it. We also can't get it. We are it when we can't not be it. And it can't not know itself. It can't not be itself. And yet, so-called small mind, the mind that's related to others, that one

[45:03]

when it's relating to others, loses touch with. It's true nature. The host. The guests are enjoying themselves and enjoying the other guests so much that they forget the host of the party. I think that's why Ryu Yan, even though he already understood this matter, he was living as a person, he was constantly forgetting. So he had to constantly remind himself. Host, yes? Be aware. Well, I already am aware. Yes, but be aware. You are aware, but knowingly be aware. the awareness that you are.

[46:05]

Yes, yes. And don't be deceived by others. Yes, yes. First, just be aware, be the host, and get in touch with the spaciousness of our nature. And then, in a little more deeper way, investigate what is this what are these apparent others as the host let's not be deceived by them on the surface this might sound just like a um a basic mindfulness practice of like master yes be aware we might understand it as just pay attention you're getting distracted just pay attention to what you're doing Pay attention to this present experience. That would be a kind of a simple way to understand it and wouldn't be a bad practice.

[47:10]

But I think that's not why this is not a Zen koan about just pay attention to what you're doing. That would be too simple to enshrine it as a Zen koan in the gateless barrier. More than just mindfulness of a particular experience. More like, remember our true nature. The big mind that's not related to anything else. Why would we be so concerned with something that's formless and shapeless and colorless and ungraspable because it's it's by its very nature it's free it's big mind is always okay Suzuki Roshi says

[48:29]

regarding this big mind. It's to trust or believe that something is supporting us and supporting all our activities, including thinking mind and emotional feelings. All these things, these experiences are supported by something big that has no form or color. It's impossible to know what it is. Something exists there. And we exist in that space. Another way he talks about big mind. And the space is always free. The space is always okay. And then, in other words, the host is always okay. But us guests, us human guests, appearing, within the host, as expressions of the host, we have our problems, right?

[49:38]

So if we can remember the host, if we can be the host that we truly are, it puts our problems in a different perspective too. It's not like it eliminates them, but seem to become more workable. When we're really focused on a problem, it's very hard to remember the host, but that's why we have zazen. We have times when we can just sit and open to the host because we don't have to do anything else at that time. Of course, we sometimes do do other things at that time because that's how us guests are. We like to do things, but this nice time where we don't have to do anything. No one's asking us to do anything during Zazen, except sit upright and still.

[50:43]

And ask. Host. And verify. Yes. Host. Remember, be aware and verify. Yes, aware. And remember, don't be deceived by others. And verify, oh yes, I forgot. not something other than me. We could also say it's not so much that we remember the host and it's like, oh yeah, I forgot.

[52:05]

And I'm recognizing the host again sometimes it's spoken of like that but we might say we haven't actually forgotten it because we're always aware of something we're always aware even what we call totally distracted means i'm like trying to focus on this but my mind is going over here and then this is over here and then this is over here and that's over there And wait, I'm totally distracted. But actually, of course, the host hasn't changed at all. It's just the guests are getting more and more restless. The guests are there. The guests party is getting more and more wild. I call that distraction. But and then we remember host. Oh, yeah. But it's not so much that we're we're seeing the host that was hidden. You could talk about it that way, but it's more like we're... It's not like the host is recognized as something new.

[53:17]

It's more like knowing what was already known, but knowing it clearly. What is already known is that we are aware. Sometimes we're aware of objects, which is not that clear. So it's like knowing that there's nothing but this presence of awareness, the host, but knowing it clearly, meaning that the so-called objects are not something other than the host. The guests are not other than the host. They're expressions. All experiences are expressions of big mind within big mind. As a kind of

[54:35]

practical thing around this practice, thinking about this story. And I hope my Jiko Incense attendant doesn't mind me telling the story that he told me that he got a phone app that rings a bell every 15 minutes. And like we In the kitchen, sometimes we have the mindfulness bell. But I think he was using this bell not just as a mindfulness bell to come back to the present experience, but as a kind of turning the light around bell. Something like this. Like a host bell. When we're immersed in our role as a guest doing something, the bell rings and we're like... We can say host.

[55:37]

Oh, yeah. It's like a. I think of remembering the host as a very relaxing out breath because the host is so spacious and the guests sometimes get constricted within the host. So I was inspired by that. So I. I got an app, too, and the bell. for, I don't know, maybe the last month or something. The bell rings every 15 minutes. That's a lot throughout the day. And I learn a lot by that. Because sometimes I'm really immersed in the guest management tasks. Like several emails open at the same time. And I got to like paste this one into here and reply to that one. And nobody say anything before. Finish this process or I'm going to forget a piece of it. Like super zoomed in on a particular guest.

[56:43]

Email, I think, is especially like this. My job here is a lot of administration kind of work. Very guesty. And so sometimes the bell goes in the middle of that. And I have an aversion to it. I confess. I'm like, okay, okay. Finish this first. I'll like, I'll remember the host in just a minute. That's very good. It's very humbling for me to hear that bell and say like, this particular task of the guests right now are like more important than reality. And I feel a little kind of sadness when I say that to the bell. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, ultimate reality. I have some conventional tasks.

[57:48]

Stings a little bit. I confess it to you. But, you know, I'm playing with it. Sometimes it's like, no, actually, I set this up for this very point. Remember. now nothing will be lost and also um sometimes like in the kitchen we ring the mindfulness bell and there's the practice of stop whatever you're doing put your knife down and just breathe three breaths 10 seconds or something and then and then go back which is very helpful mode of kind of stopping activity to be present um But sometimes when things are going quickly and you have to finish things, I feel like I don't have time to stop, which is kind of a delusion. But sometimes I've learned that actually I don't really have to stop to remember the host.

[58:49]

And this is, I think, even more important than stopping. It's more like in the middle of attending to this particular task, remembering space of the host, the host of this task, remembering it while immersed in the task, I think is even better practice than stopping. At first, it may be good to stop, but we don't, if our life, if to remember the host, we had to stop all activity, that wouldn't be a very Functional host. So. If we can remember the host. At any moment. And even just for a second. It starts. This. These second by second. Mini verifications.

[59:50]

Of the host. Can start to like. Gradually. Very slowly. I think. infiltrate our mind and change our mind. Many, many, many, many, many, many remembrances of the host while being a guest. maybe I should increase the apt every five minutes. But 15 is already a lot for me. Even four times a day would be a lot for most people of the world. Now you have this possible practice. After Ruyen,

[60:58]

died, a student of his then went to another teacher, Xuansha. And Xuansha asked him when he arrived, where did you come from? As they often asked in those days. And he said, I came from Ryuyang's place. And the new teacher Xuansha said, why didn't you stay there? And this monk said, because he died. So I left to further explore the teaching with other teachers, like you, Xuansha. And Xuansha said, I'm so sorry to hear that. What did he teach you there? What did Ryuyang teach you there? And he recounted the story. He always, all day long, called to himself, Master, Host,

[61:59]

Yes. Be aware. Yes, yes. Don't be fooled by others. Yes, yes. That's what he taught me. Basically, that's the main thing that he taught. And Chuan Sha said, wait a second. Now that Liu Yan has died, who's going to ask the question and who will reply? And the monk didn't know what to say. So Xuansha hit him, as they often did in those days. That's a question for us. When the guest named Ryuyen dies, when the guest that we are dies, then who's going to ask and who's going to answer?

[62:59]

The host doesn't die. The host is birthless and deathless. So in these koan collections, there's usually a verse at the end to celebrate the story. And so women who collected these stories wrote a verse. With each of these 48 stories, she writes a verse. But this one is unusual. I think it's the only one in this whole collection of stories where Wu-Man stole the verse from another Zen teacher. It's his direct quote of a verse from another teacher, but he doesn't even give him credit for it. Is that ancient Zen plagiarism? I think people liked quoting each other. And he felt like this verse applied to this story.

[64:06]

The verse is, students of the way do not know reality. They only know their dualistic consciousness up to now. This is the source of endless birth and death. But the foolish call it the original person. And briefly, let me just tell you the story where this verse came from. This verse was actually written by Chang Sha, another Zen teacher, in response to this dialogue he had with a student. And here's the dialogue, which is, I think, therefore, there's both of them, this verse is a verse to the story we've just been talking about, Ryu Yang, and it's also a verse commenting on this story. So you can see how this story is very similar to Ryuyi Yen's.

[65:08]

In this story, Minister Chu says to Changsha, the Zen teacher Changsha, when an earthworm is cut in two, the two parts wiggle and move, keep crawling, right? In which part of this cut worm is the Buddha nature. There's a teaching that all sentient beings have Buddha nature, including worms. So when you cut the worm in half, you can't really cut Buddha nature, right? So which half has the Buddha nature? They're both wiggling. I love those questions that those ancients came up with. In which... Part of the cut worm is the Buddha nature. Changsha said, don't be deceived. And the minister asking the question said, well, what about that movement?

[66:13]

In other words, like, doesn't that move? Isn't that movement coming from the Buddha nature? And Changsha said, you should know that that movement is just undispersed wind and fire. which I think is an old Chinese way of saying, it's just the, it's the working of the four elements that make up sentient bodies before the elements have dispersed. At death, the elements disperse, but they haven't quite dispersed yet, so they're still moving. In other words, this movement is just like ordinary, like, Physical stuff happening. This has nothing to do with Buddha nature. You could hear it like that. And. Don't you know. This is just undispersed wind and fire. And the minister didn't say anything.

[67:16]

And Changsha called out to him. Minister Chu. And he said yes. And Changsha said. Isn't. your real life? When I call you and you say yes, isn't that your real life? Something to do with your Buddha nature? We're not trying to analyze some kind of spiritual substance that inhabits pieces of worms here. That's not the Buddha nature we're talking about. We're talking about the Buddha nature of Minister Chu? Yes? That? lively response. Isn't that your real life? And the minister said, there can't be another true person apart from what responded just now. And they go on a little bit more, but then Changsha spontaneously recites this verse that Wu Men uses in his collection.

[68:22]

Students of the way do not know reality. They only know their dualistic consciousness up to now. This is the source of endless birth and death, but the foolish call it the original person. So, master, yes? Is there some sort of dualistic consciousness that's divided into subject and object? And if we think that it's the subjectivity, some sort of witness, Over here, that's just dualistic consciousness. The source of birth and death. But foolish people say, oh, me, my kokyo is witnessing awareness that resides behind his eyeballs. That's the original person. That's what fools say. Big mind is...

[69:25]

not divided into the subject and the object. So you are equally big mind as I am big mind, and I am equally big mind for you as you are big mind for me, and so on. So just be aware and not be deceived by others. Do you have any questions? Yes. Thank you. So I noticed an emotional reaction to the worm being cut. And it reminds me of Nansen cutting the cat in half. And I'm wondering, where's the Buddha nature hiding in that story? In the cat story? In the cat story, yeah. I have a lot of trouble with that story. Yes, yes. So you'll have to hear the story then.

[70:28]

In the earthworm store, there's no actual cutting involved. They're not looking at a worm. In that case, it might have been cut by mistake, theoretically. But there's another story of this cat where Nan Chuan, another teacher, held up a cat and said, if you... The cat was, the monks were arguing about the cat. We don't know exactly what, whether it exists or not or something about the cat, whether it has Buddha nature or not. We don't know. They were arguing about this cat and the teacher came by, saw them like all worked up in a conceptual frizzy and held up the cat and said, if you can speak, if you can express something true right now, I won't cut the cat. And they all froze and couldn't say anything. So he cut the cat in two. Horrific story.

[71:34]

And where's the Buddha nature in that story? Seems like Nan Chuan was asking for for the monks to express their Buddha nature because they had temporarily forgotten it. They were lost in arguing about all the guests and had forgotten the host. This cat, this living reality of cat that you've forgotten, Express something from your Buddha nature right now. And it won't be cut. Otherwise, Buddha nature will be divided. The reality of this cat will be divided. And division of Buddha nature is extremely painful.

[72:45]

And so just anything. Manifest your Buddha nature right now. Anything will do. But they were so stuck. They couldn't respond at all. And so the reality of Buddha nature was divided. And the painful story comes down to us today. One response. It still hurts. Yeah. Dividing Buddha nature and dividing cats is extremely painful. It's almost like, I think for most of us people, dividing cats seems more painful than dividing Buddha nature, actually. It hurts more than just some philosophical discussion, some Asian philosophy about dividing Buddha nature.

[73:48]

That doesn't seem so painful, but maybe the story is pointing out that this is what it's about. that's even more painful and it's the root it's the root of all cat division is dividing buddha nature particularly into subjects and objects and killing uh as i would understand it i think that killing always is based on must be based on dividing reality Buddha nature into a subject and an object. Because the thing that we want to kill has to be an object separate from us in order to kill it. So it's kind of, the story's kind of going to the root, but it's bringing out the painful reality of the practical results of dividing Buddha nature. That's how it feels to me.

[74:48]

Yes? Oh, here's a microphone. For the Buddha nature in that story, couldn't the moment of frozenness in the students be the Buddha nature as the masters would see it and then put down the cat? Yes, good question. I think so. I think there, because... Again, from the perspective of big mind, right? As Suzuki Roshi says, everything is included within big mind. Their hesitation and frozenness can't be outside of big mind. And maybe Nan Chuan, the teacher, knew that. But from the perspective of small mind... which these arguing monks were maybe caught in small mind, from their perspective, it seems like their hesitation was like, this is not it, and we don't know what to do, and we can't express something clearly right now.

[76:04]

So in order to point that out, even though you're right, even though it's a manifestation, expression of the host, their silence. They were suffering in their hesitation. To point out the implications of that, this dramatic thing happened, that supposedly happened, that now disturbs us a thousand years later. So its impact has worked. to disturb us today. Yes. Any UC Davis students bring up anything? Any Green Dragon guests?

[77:13]

Any, okay. Are there any online people? Okay, first, Brian. Thank you. Thank you. I wanted to just ask if you could talk a little bit more about, you mentioned, you made the distinction that this could be seen as a mind, the original story could be seen as a mindfulness instruction. And that it's more than that and that it's the remembering. Yes. And I think that those two things, like, for example, during prostrations, I notice I, the first I just be mind, just do it, be there. And then I'm like, wait, but remember awareness. And then I just, and then I just, I'm thinking. So I go through that cycle of those, of both of them. And then I feel like I've been trying to come to the conclusion that the mindfulness, is the whole thing.

[78:16]

But then when you just made that distinction, I was getting... Yeah, we could make the distinction or not make the distinction. The distinction I was trying to make was that usually we talk about mindfulness as paying attention to a particular experience, like the physical sensation of prostrating or the physical sensation of breathing. Something like that. And being the host could even be described as releasing attention. Almost the opposite. It could be described as instead of attending to a particular experience, it's releasing attention. Attention is like when consciousness is directed towards a particular experience. And therefore seems to be divided. into a knower and a known. Attention is like that.

[79:17]

So at least at first. So it's kind of releasing the attention and opening into spaciousness. That's not attending to any experience because it's more interested in the host. It's more interested in the spaciousness of awareness than the particular guests. in the awareness. So that's the distinction. But then as a practice, yeah, it may be that we're attending to some particular experience, especially physical body or breath is a good one because it's not so conceptual. So that in that attending over time, the apparent duality of attender and attendee subject and object starts to dissolve because it's an illusion anyway, according to the host.

[80:20]

There isn't really a subject and an object. It's an appearance. It's a kind of light distortion of awareness. Consciousness, dualistic consciousness, is a slight distortion or almost like a trick of non-dual awareness. And the true nature, dualistic consciousness is nothing other than non-dual awareness so they're very close it's not like two different two different minds so therefore um and just attending to the bowing but in it with a kind of more peripheral sense of like there's also the reverberating sound of the bell um kind of merging with the sensation of the body And the very thought of like, is this the practice? All of these guests are kind of all intermingled, interrelated within the one host.

[81:25]

And we're just kind of opening to the host. That's why I like this. These days, I like this practice of when the mindfulness bell goes to not stop thinking and not return to like, you know, Even immersed in an email, the bell goes, I'm kind of used to it now. I'm still typing the email, but there's this sense of spaciousness integrated simultaneously. That kind of addresses it. Thank you. Drew. Like right now, there's all these words flying around the Zendo and thoughts and trying to figure something out. At the same time, without trying to ignore all these annoying words, then we all feel a kind of a sense of the spacious host of ordinary mind. Our original face is this just presence, indestructible, ever-present, ordinary mind.

[82:40]

Yes. Are you aware? Yes. Are you being deceived by me? I don't know. Yes, yes. Thank you. Anything else? Yes. Sorry if this is a little bit unformulated here. I heard you say that killing something indicates the assumption of dualistic scene, that a self and object exist. Yes, yes.

[83:42]

And I would say the same is true of all our Bodhisattva precepts. That's what's so amazing about them. They point out they point out our belief in duality in 10 different ways. So I propose that killing does not indicate a dualistic mind. How so? Because for me to kill another for a reason, we almost never randomly kill, I think, sentient beings kill other sentient beings. Either out of aversion towards them or greed for them.

[84:45]

I think if there's no wanting to, the greed would be in this case to eat them. If we don't want to eat them and we don't want to get them out of our, you know, the mosquito out of our arm or something like that, then there'd be no reason to kill. We have to other them to kill them is how I would understand. How would you see it? I thought of it more as, and that's a great insight and has sort of altered the view that I have or contributed to the view that I have. how I was kind of thinking about it was my own sensations around life and death and being very intimate with death and knowing that at any moment I could die.

[85:59]

And that would be a completely welcomed thing as not being something that I am shy away from. Yes. So death ultimately is not an end, but the issue of killing is more than just dying. Killing is one being taking another being's life and others. It always involves other. Even if it were killing oneself, that would be othering oneself, I would say. It would be a split, dualistic mind would be necessary. OK, I think.

[87:03]

THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD ANSWER AND BRINGS SOME CLARITY AND SOME MORE THINGS TO PONDER. WORTH CONTEMPLATING. IT'S DEFINITELY WORTH CONTEMPLATING. THANK YOU. YES. YOU TALKED ABOUT THE DUALISTIC MIND. YOU HAVE EYES AND COLOR. And when you kill, you create this dualism of the self and others. I would say more that based on the dualism of self and others, we kill. Yes. From my perspective, it seems that with this dualistic mind that I'm not separating and dividing the world up, from my perspective, it seems that I see the world how it is. bridge or stop this division?

[88:09]

It just seems like such an abstract concept of not seeing in this dualistic way. Yes. Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's not so much that we stop seeing that way because as humans, we have to, that's how we function, right? So it appears that the world is divided or reality is divided into subjects and objects. And we don't need to stop that. And almost if it were to completely stop, we wouldn't be human anymore. We wouldn't be able to function. So I would understand this practice is more like keep seeing how it's an illusion. It's a kind of a trick of the host. And. just without stopping it, but really clarifying more and more deeply how it's an illusory appearance affects the way we live in the world. I think that's what the then ancestors were getting at.

[89:13]

So it's a little bit like as a metaphor, we might say, like becoming lucid in a dream. The dream appears like there's a subject in the dream and an object in the dream. Most dreams, there is a sense of subjectivity, like a located dream person walking through a dream world. But both the subject and the object in the dream are both just, you know, manifestations of one mind. We could say like the host is expressing itself as the illusion of a subject and illusion of an objective world in an ordinary dream for all of us. And we're totally convinced in most dreams. But to become lucid in a dream is like to know that you're dreaming and to continue dreaming. And then you can function in the dream world in a way that is informed by the host and more and more skillfully.

[90:19]

For example, this issue around killing would be like, I know it's a dream other here. But like, but I seem to be, my action seems to be motivated by thinking that it's more than a dream other. I need to obliterate it or eat it. Does that make sense? Yes, thank you. Yes, yeah, yeah. Because you're right, sometimes it sounds like we just, there is no more dualistic perception or something. But I think, and in Zazen, maybe sometimes there could be times When, since it's not needed, we can actually, the mind can not be divided that way occasionally. But as soon as the bell rings and we need to get up and walk, then it's very useful to pop back into the dream.

[91:19]

Remember, it's a dream. Thank you for your attention. Thanks for coming so far from Davis. And I hope it's something to do with Asian philosophy. . [...] Thank you.

[92:49]

In the darkness, but in the darkness, [...] in the darkness Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The root ends are inexhaustible. I am able to do it then.

[93:53]

And our own gains are boundless. I am able to do that. But all those ways are surpassable. I am going to be coming. The residents who are available could help restore the Zendo.

[94:51]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_94.72