This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. So last night, right at the end of the period, I said the stone woman gives birth to a child at night. This is difficult. Please stay close. Don't go away. Stay with me. As the stone woman is saying, stay with me. Stay close. So for many of you, you're facing and practicing with a lot of pain, a lot of ongoing, incessant, slightly changing, but pretty much always there pain of various kinds.

[01:17]

And then, you know, things get heightened by yesterday. For me, also, I got very cold, I think, I think I thought it was warmer than it was because it was raining, but I didn't have enough layers and I got very chilled, kind of bone chilling. Cold, I couldn't get warm in the zendo. Plus somebody opened the window, this window, and I thought that she so had, she thought I had, so we both left it open for quite a while until we clarified that. I thought, If she really wanted it open, you know, she's so, she needs the air, fine. And she probably thought the same thing for me, so check these things out with your neighbors. Anyway, I got really cold, and then, you know, just like we chat about water, for some it's a palace, for some it's a jewel, for some it's fire.

[02:28]

And the zendo, somehow the zendo seemed dank and cold and dark for a bit. And then it changed into warm and friendly. I mean, it's empty of own being, right? So there is no zendo here. Each of you has a zendo that is also appearing and disappearing and changing. So... This is, as I was mentioning to someone, this is the work of winter right now. What is the work of winter? Spring is, I think the equinox is March 20th. Spring equinox, which is the first day of spring, right? So we're still in the winter, and March comes in like a lion. Whenever March is, I have no idea when March is coming. Don't even think about it. But... Anyway, they say it comes in like a lion.

[03:30]

So we have weather, we have more weather coming, probably. And we're doing the work of winter. And the work of winter, you know, when things, those of you who are gardeners and farmers know, it's very important this time of the year, of the yearly cycle, to go under the earth and do the work under in the dark. the roots are doing what they need to do. It's not about out in the sunshine playing around and having your leaves be whirling and twirling. There's work under the earth, the dark, and the earth, you know, the cold earth. It's all necessary. I had a friend who, I think, went on a trip and somebody house sat for her and they thought all these trees or shrubs and things were dead in her backyard and thought they'd do some cleaning up.

[04:37]

And she came back and they weren't dead, they were dormant, right? And sometimes you can't tell the difference between dead and dormant. Marsha told me you have to scratch to find out. if it's dead or dormant. So I think we're in, we're not dead. We're not dead yet. Is anybody dead yet? We're doing the work, the winter work, caring for the roots. And, you know, does germinating happen under the ground? too, germinating happens under the ground, right, before the sprouts come up. So we're doing this work of germinating. But it can be cold under the ground and kind of, it might feel like, where are those other friends of mine?

[05:43]

You know, we might not see the work they're doing. Everybody's working in their own way. And in working with your pain, you know, I mentioned some of you may be switching legs each time, which I mentioned. And that may be kind of not only have you your regular pain, but now you've got this added thing of the other leg being on top. So I feel your efforts and courage. return over and over and over again to your place. I had mentioned Seiza and different cushions and chair. I didn't mention chair and I didn't mention lying down, but those are other options in this Zendo.

[06:49]

If there aren't enough chairs, if you would like a chair and they all are occupied, for one period of a dozen, please speak with the Eno. We've got a room full of chairs right over there. So don't be shy. Ask for what you need. And as I've said before in the last section, working with pain includes relaxing within the pain even though our tendency is to pull away and contract against and tighten up and brace, that will cause more pain or will contribute to conditions for more pain and also a state of mind and a state of thinking that's

[07:57]

even worse than the physical pain, I think. It's kind of intolerable, the fight against. So with patience, patience in the face of physical discomfort, strong sensations, we practice patience. And as much as we possibly can, relaxing the body, bringing our awareness our breath and consciousness into the areas of pain. Breathe into your knees. Breathe into your lower back. Bring warmth to these areas. And let go of the fight. Just allow it. Allow it to be. used to say embrace.

[09:01]

I used to say embrace it. I think that goes too far, actually. I think just allowing is a kind of embrace that's not going towards resting. And resting in your breath. And this and moving if you need to. And this kind of moving is not moving. This is immovable moving where you stay present with moving just the way you stay present with not moving. So please help each other... by being sensitive to each other, giving each other lots of space, and staying with the admonitions of Sashin.

[10:08]

I mentioned to someone that I said I relied on them I relied on this person. And I didn't mean rely like I rely on this person to be there for me or do what I want or even uphold the admonitions or uphold the guidelines. It's not that kind of relying. How it is that I rely on this person is that I rely on this person to practice with whatever happens. Whatever comes to be, whether it's painful or joyful or heartbreaking, I rely on them to practice with whatever it is. Not that I lean on them, but I stand with them in practice.

[11:27]

This is relying. So this is something to ask yourself, can you rely on yourself to practice with whatever happens, with whatever appears, with whatever is manifest, again, Joe. And if you don't know how to practice with it, can you ask for help? So as I've been saying a few things about the wind of the family house and, you know, one of the points was that we don't say too much or that there, you know, I...

[12:30]

I commemorate my teacher Yunnan because he didn't teach me anything, said Tozan. And another teacher begged for instruction and the teacher didn't give it to him and then later when he saw for himself he said how grateful he was that he didn't get some explanation at that time. So that's maybe a quality of not saying too much, but then we do say something. I wanted to say something about the meditation instruction in Phukansa Zengi, think not thinking. How do you think not thinking? non-thinking, which has been a koan forever for students.

[13:39]

And I bring it up now because Dogen in his rant, as the tanto calls it, brings up these points about thinking. And so There's another koan which has embedded in meditation instructions which I've found somehow those two together, think not thinking, how do you think not thinking, non-thinking. And this koan called Mind and Environment, those two together have helped me to orient and clarify this meditation instruction. Many of you know this koan, Mind and Environment. It's in the Book of Serenity. And let's see if I can recite it. Yang Shan asked a monk, where are you from?

[14:44]

The monk said, from Yu province. Yang Shan said, do you think of that place? The monk said, I always think of it. Yang Shan said, the thinker is the mind. The thought of is the environment. Reverse your thought to think of the thinking mind. And then there's supposed to be probably a gap of about six years or something between these two, and then the monk comes back and says, when I get to that place, there isn't anything at all. Reverse your thought to think of the thinking mind. Is there anything at all? What's there? And he said, when I, later, many years later, working on this, he said, when I get to that place, there isn't anything at all. And Yangshan said, that's right for the stage of faith, but not yet right for the stage of person.

[15:54]

And the monk said, can you give me any other instructions? That would be helpful. And Yangshan said, based on your understanding, you can take your seat and wear the robe. After that, see on your own. So that's Shoryo Roku, Book of Serenity, Mind and Environment. But the point that, which we can... talk about the point I wanted to look at with you is the thinker is the mind and the thought of is the environment, mind and environment. Reverse your thought to think of the thinking mind. Reverse your thought to think of the thinking mind rather than to be thinking of, oh, I missed a part. That's right. The thinker is the mind and the thought of is the environment.

[16:58]

Therein are mountains, rivers, and the land mass, buildings, towers, trees, chambers, and everything else you can think of. That's in the environment. Reverse your thought to think of the thinking mind. Are there so many things there? When I get there, there isn't anything at all. This is right for the stage of faith, but not yet right for the stage of person. So in the environment are the 10,000 things. Buildings, towers, trees, walls. Everything is in the environment. And I always think of that place. When he says, where are you from, from you province, do you think of that place? Do you think of home? I always think of home. I am always thinking of all this stuff. Reverse your thought to think of the thinking mind. This is the meditation instruction. Think back to the one who thinks.

[18:00]

This is the backward step. Eko Hensho, this is take a backward step and turn your light inwardly to illuminate the self. This is think of, think not thinking. How do you think? not thinking, non-thinking. This is not our usual thinking of towers, trees, chambers, landmass, next for lunch, when am I going to get my bath? What am I doing this summer? Why didn't I do that? Why did she say that? I hate her. I love him. It's just mind and environment, you know, thinking of those things. I always think of those things. Where are you from? I always think of those things. The thinker is the mind. The thought of is the environment. So now reverse that. And instead of thinking of the environment and everything in it, think back to the one who thinks.

[19:06]

This is bringing the backward step to our own awareness, our own thinking mind, the awareness itself. And when you bring, when you turn the light back like this, it's not a regular thinking. It's called beyond thinking or non-thinking. You know, the calligraphy over, used to be Suzuki Roshi's apartment, Blanche's room at City Center, it says non-thinking. I can't remember who did the calligraphy. So If you have found so far while we've been sitting here that you are thinking of the environment, thinking of the ten thousand things, with full awareness, turn the light back and think back to the thinking mind. What is that?

[20:10]

What does that feel like? And a thought will arise. This is not about cutting off thoughts or not having any thoughts. Think not thinking does not mean you shouldn't be having any thoughts. That's a misunderstanding of the practice. And thoughts arise just like any of the 10,000 things. It will arise and vanish. And when you look at it, it will melt. When you're aware of thoughts arising, they melt. If we are thinking of the environment, then we get more and more involved and more and more caught up and more and more taken away to points unknown. So think back to the thinker. Be aware of just our awareness.

[21:14]

just sitting. And if just sitting is just thinking of the environment or just daydreaming or just planning and arguing or whatever, then you might practice settling practice, a tranquilization practice, a calming practice of counting the breath, following the breath. All of this Needless to say, all of these practices arising from a settled posture, we start there, taking good care of our posture, upright posture, balanced and stabilized as best we can. We start there. So this last part of the koan, he says, when I get there, there doesn't seem to be anything at all, anything outside, any dualistic thinking.

[22:41]

And one would think, great, isn't that, aren't we done? There doesn't seem to be anything at all, there's just oneness or something. And he says, that's right for the stage of faith, but not yet right for the stage of person. And this stage of person, what I realized, this stage of person is walking forward, coming down the mountain. That's right for the stage of faith and the backward step. But that's not the end of story. We go beyond Buddhahood. We let go of the attainment. We come down from the mountain. We do the forward step. We return. the stage of person, just this person. And then the monk says, can't you give me some more instructions?

[23:43]

Can't you say anything else? Because I'm, maybe he didn't understand yet, or she. And then the teacher said, based on your understanding so far, you can take your place and wear the robe. And after that, see on your own, which is this wind of the family house. Again, this is, I can't do it for you. I can't say anything more than I've said. You now have to see on your own. But first you have to take the place, take your place and wear the robe. And this wearing the robe and taking your place may refer to the Lotus Sutra where you put on the robe. This isn't necessarily being ordained or receiving Buddha's precepts. literally, but you put on the robe of compassion in the Lotus Sutra, to wear the robe, is you wrap yourself in the robe of compassion and take your seat with, I can't remember, in the Lotus Sutra, take your seat and wear the robe are particular things that the Buddha does.

[24:51]

But wrapping yourself in the robe of compassion, so based on your understanding, wrap yourself in compassion and sit down, find your cushion and sit on it and see on your own. That's all I can tell you," Yangshan says. So I think these are good meditation instructions for us during Sesshin also. So continuing with our sutra, with San Sui Kyo, yesterday we, I think with the new marking, we got a little mixed up I think on when we were chanting. So we didn't chant what I was talking about yesterday, this last paragraph before the argumentative, the diatribe part.

[25:52]

So I don't know what we'll do today. We'll probably just start with part three rather than a paragraph. Otherwise we'll really get mixed up. So yesterday we talked about the stone woman and the kind of parent giving birth to the child and the child giving birth to the parent. And I think we kind of got a feel for that. Shogun asked me about the baker and the effect being the causing the cause. And afterwards, I thought, I should have just brought up Sebastian. You know, it's like Sebastian gave birth to you as a father, right? Before Sebastian, you were not a father. And once Sebastian came, you were birthed too as a father. You appeared fresh as a father by virtue of... So the child gives birth to the parent. The parent gives birth to the child. And also this happens...

[26:53]

You know, sometimes someone is a teacher for us and we don't really realize it, how important they were to us. And years later we realize, oh, you know, I learned so much from them. And we give birth to them as an ancestor for us or a teacher. Forward and back. Time goes forward and backward in that way. The effect gives birth to the cause and the cause gives birth to the effect. So this, you know, we're almost at the end of the mountains section. San Suikyo has the introduction, two sections of mountains. The Fuyo Dokai's Blue Mountains are constantly walking, and the Stone Woman gives birth to a child in the night. And then the second part was Yun Men's The East Mountain Moves Over the Water. And then we're going to start talking about water.

[27:54]

You know, that's the next point. So we're... or I was to the water park, the water section. So I wanted to say a little bit more about the East Mountain moves over the water, and I made a mistake. It's Fuyo Dokai who just walked in to the assembly and said, Blue Mountains are walking, and there's no commentary or anything about it. But Yun Men, there was this koan, which I was... describing where a monk said to him, translated incorrectly or translated in a way that Shohaku doesn't agree with, the translation was, where is the place whence all Buddhas come from? And Shohaku, in looking at this word, shushin, shu-shin, it's not, it's from where are the Buddhas freed up from, where are they freed from or emancipated?

[29:04]

What is the place where all the Buddhas, the shobutsu, are shu-shin or emancipated or free? And it comes from this, there's this koan, so Yun-men said, east mountain moves over the waters. Where do all the Buddhas go? Where are they freed from? What is the place where all the Buddhas walk free, are freed from their Buddhahood, are liberated from attain Buddhahood and let go of the attainment? What is this place? And he said the East Mountains move over the water. The East Mountain is another name for the mountain that Yun-men taught on. And this comes from a poem There's another kind of origin of using these images, which is, I will read this, East Mountain Moves Over the Water.

[30:07]

It comes from this poem from a layman, layman Fu, layman Fu, who was a contemporary of Bodhidharma. And this particular practitioner gave a lecture to the emperor. So Bodhidharma talked to the emperor and Leman Fu did. And there's, Okamura Roshi mentions, there's a statue you sometimes see in temples of this layperson sitting down with his hand out. And this is Leman Fu. Okamura Roshi says he doesn't know why he's sitting there with his hand out. Anyway, there's this image that you can see in some temples. And this was his poem. Where east mountains float on the river, and the west mountains wander on and on in the realm of this world. Beneath the Great Dipper, just there is the place of genuine emancipation.

[31:13]

So this poem, where east mountains float on the water and where west mountains wander on and on in the realm of this world, and the word for the realm of this world is the word for Jambudvipa, Rose Apple Island, which is the name for our land where we live in terms of Buddhist cosmology. You have Mount Sumeru in the center, and Jambudvipa is south of Mount Sumeru, or Sumeru, Sumeru. So in this poem we have the east mountains floating on the river, the west mountains roaming, wandering on and on. So here's some more mountains that are walking. The west mountains wander on and on in the realm of this world or in the realm of the south. So you have the east mountains, the west mountains, then you have the south. Beneath the Great Dipper, and the name for the Great Dipper has the character for north in it. So you've got east, west, south, and north.

[32:17]

Just there is the place of genuine emancipation. And he doesn't use the word shushin, this emancipation, in this question of the monk in the koan. What is the place where all the Buddhas walk free from Buddhahood or are free? He uses another word. which means the same thing, liberation or freedom. So we have east and west. We have wanderings in this realm of the south. We have the Big Dipper, the Great Dipper in the sky to the north. Just there. So where is this there? This there is east, west, north and south, all the ten directions. Every place is the place. of genuine emancipation. So every place is the place of emancipation, is the place of shushin.

[33:24]

That means this place right now, this seat that you're sitting on right now, is the place of genuine emancipation. So East Mountains move over the water, Dogen goes on to say the import, this is the next part of the section, the import of this expression is that all mountains are the East Mountain and all these East Mountains are moving over the water. So these East Mountain, East, West, North, South, just there is the place of genuine emancipation. And the East Mountain moving over the water, Dogen says, all mountains are the East Mountain. And there's another fascicle where he takes up East, Komyo, and basically says, everywhere is East.

[34:32]

And it's, you know, we have in mind that we know where East is, but... We also know if you travel east and you go far enough, you'll end up west, right? East and west and north and south are conceptual. They're conceptual, right? All places are the center of the world and our seat is the center. And so when he says, All mountains are the east mountain, and all these east mountains are moving over the water. Every place is practicing walking, moving, arising and vanishing, including us as we sit, and to not be caught by east, west, north or south. In Okamura Roshi's commentary, he describes growing up in Japan with a map on the wall of Japan, and Japan is right in the center of the map in red.

[35:48]

It's colored red, and it was the center. It's the center of the world. And then there are these places. Way over there was this United States, and way over there was some other countries, but Japan was the center. And then when he moved to Massachusetts, He saw this map and the United States was right in the center and Japan was this little tiny thing way over, kind of, was in the center. And this was very disorienting, you know. What is the center? We are the center. And no place is the center. All places are the center. So each place everywhere is the genuine place of liberation. And we can practice. There's not some other place we're supposed to be getting to where that will be the real place.

[36:48]

If I could only get there. If I could only find that place. So there's other commentary on this point, but I think maybe I'll move on. Therefore, Mount Sumeru and the other nine mountains are all appearing, are all practicing and verifying the Buddha Dharma. This is called the East Mountain. But how could Yun-men himself be liberated from the skin, flesh, bones, and marrow of the East Mountain and its life of practice and verification? That's this last section right before the angry part.

[37:54]

So Mount Sumeru... Just to say again, I was saying Jambudvipa, Rose Apple Island, is south. This is Buddhist cosmology. It's in the Arbidambra Kosha. We have Mount Sumeru. Sumeru has the center. And then you have nine mountain ranges around it, other nine mountains. And then there's like seven other mountains that form a square. This is all sort of this cosmology... Jambodribus to the south, and underneath the earth there's a circle of wind and a circle of water. These are all, you know, it reminds me of Dante's, you know, Inferno and the Nine Circles and so forth. So this is just this cosmological... description, so therefore Mount Sumeru and the other nine mountains are all appearing and are all practicing and verifying the Buddha Dharma. This is called East Mountain. So basically East Mountain, all mountains are East Mountain, even Mount Sumeru and these other mountain ranges and so forth.

[39:03]

They're all appearing and... practice and verifying. And this practice and verifying is one of Dogen's, it's a coined phrase, it's a coined compound that he uses many, many, many times in Shogo Genzo and it's one of the hallmarks, you know, one of the main teachings of Dogen is, this says practice and verification. It's sometimes, this is show Shusho, practice verification. Sometimes it's hyphenated, practice realization. Practice realization is naturally undefiled. Going forward in practice is a matter of everydayness. Practice realization is Dogen's, you know, maybe one of his most creative, or not creative, but...

[40:05]

to use enlightened offering, conveying this practice realization as one thing. The usual understanding is practice, [...] and then eventually there's verifying a realization. And he says, and this teaching in our Wind of the Family House is practice and realization. Practice, realization is within practice. Shusho. And this comes up over and over and over, and we catch ourselves, you know, in our usual way of thinking, I'm going to practice, practice, practice, and then something's going to happen to me, rather than right this moment in practice. The Buddha's practice is being lived out. Also, this practice realization comes up in a very famous dialogue, which Dogen also cites in many different places, the dialogue between Sixth Ancestor and Nanyue, Huenang and Nanyue, which you probably know very well.

[41:44]

But I think I won't bring it up quite yet because we've done a number of dialogues, and I don't want to add more koans. But... Practice Realization as the appearing, it says, therefore Mount Sumeru and the nine other mountains are all appearing and are practicing and verifying Buddha Dharma. So all the mountains, meaning us two as mountains, are in our practice verifying Buddha's way, realizing Buddha's way. By revering Buddhas and ancestors, we are one Buddha and ancestor. By practicing Buddha's way, that's the effect of Buddha's way, and we are the parents of the Buddhas and ancestors by practicing, practicing and verifying.

[42:48]

So I wanted to say a few words about this ending part of the paragraph. He says, this is called the East Mountains. This is called the East Mountains. The appearing and the practicing is called East Mountain. And then he says, but how could Yun-men himself be liberated from the skin, flesh, bones and marrow of the East Mountain and his life of practice and verification? So this is called the East Mountain, to me, is the way we've been talking about mountains as the reality of our life, of the interconnected whole of our life, which is practicing. This is mountains, and this is mountains moving over the water. This is mountains walking. And then he asks about Yun-men himself. How could Yun-men himself be liberated? And I'm not sure here, and Okamura Roshi doesn't say that he's criticizing Yun-men.

[44:00]

It's kind of like an early criticism. There are places where he questions Yun-men's, some of Yun-men's teachings. But right here, I think the question may be more how can we be outside of the mountains? How can we be... liberated from this interconnected whole that's arising and vanishing and practicing. The skin, flesh, bones and marrow refers to Bodhidharma's transmission to his four disciples, which you may know the story of in asking for their understanding. After each one spoke, he said, you have my skin, you have my flesh, you have my bones, you have my marrow. So this vital path of emancipation, this moving over the water, we are within this and practicing this, and this is our life.

[45:07]

So this question of how can you be liberated from it may be more, this is our life of the mountain. no one, including us, can be outside of that. So that's just a comment on that, which may or may not be what Dogen meant. So then we come to this section about criticizing and how people, you know, in hearing these phrases, call it incomprehensible talk and all. And I just wanted to say a few things about, and we're not going to go through all the different things that he says in these two several paragraphs, but some people feel this was very harsh language and violent language. There's people who say that maybe Dogen was not following the precepts of right speech.

[46:10]

And Gi-Yoon, who was one of the Gi's, there was all these disciples who had Gi Tetsu, Gikai, and several more. Giyun, when he made an edited version of Shobo Genzo, took out and made a 60 fascicle version, took out 28 chapters or something of Dogen fascicles where he criticized Chinese teachers and criticized Rinzai or different lineages, and he hid those away, didn't want people to look at those. So there's this Shobok Enzo that has all those, you know, expurgated, you know, kind of. So this is, you know, this is a kind of difficulty that we had, and some people have more difficulties than others. One person told me they thought it was really funny, and, you know, we had skit night where we put it in there, but...

[47:12]

I think our chanting that without the mind of malice or anger or anything, it was not, this was just, for our part, we were just saying these words without intention. So I don't think this was karmically, this was not voluntarily engaged karmically criticizing. We were reciting something. So I just wanted to say earlier in a text, Zui Mon Ki, Dogen talks about arguing and harsh words and so forth. This was written before San Sui Kyo. And he says, although the power of a wise person exceeds that of an ox, he or she does not fight with the ox. Now, students, even if you think that your wisdom and knowledge is superior to others, you should not be fond of arguing with them.

[48:19]

Moreover, you should not abuse others with violent words or glare at others angrily. So this is, you know, what he's telling his students. And then he tells a story of Shui Feng, actually, Seppo. and another student, and they were discussing the Dharma loudly with one another in the monk's quarters dormitory, and eventually they began to argue using harsh words, and in the end wound up quarreling with each other. And after the argument was over, Shui Feng, this is the person telling the story, Zen Master Xin Zhou, Shui Feng went in and said, you're my friend. Why didn't you help me out when I was arguing with that person? Why didn't you come and join in and take my side?" And this person who was telling this story said, at that time I could do nothing but feel small, folding my hands and bowing my head.

[49:21]

He said, is our friendship shallow or something? Why don't you come jump in the fray with me? What gives? But then later, This teacher said, actually, what I thought at the time was that Seppo's discussion of the Dharma was ultimately meaningless. Needless to say, quarreling was wrong. Since I thought it was useless to fight, I kept silent. So at the time, he overheard it, but he just thought, this is a waste of time to be quarreling about the Dharma and yelling at each other. And Jogen agrees. You should... You don't have that much time. What are you wasting your time arguing with other people? Ultimately, ultimately it brings about no benefit to you or to others. This is so even in the case of arguing about the Dharma, much more about worldly affairs.

[50:22]

So even if the power of a wise person is stronger than an ox, don't argue with the ox. It's not worthy of your time. Even if you think that you understand the Dharma more deeply than others, do not argue, criticize, or try to defeat them. If there's a sincere student who asks you about the Dharma, you should not begrudge telling him or her about it. You should explain it to him or her. However, even in that case, you should wait to be asked three times. Neither speak too much nor talk about meaningless things. So this is, he read, this is Dogen reciting these words of this person who overheard this big argument. And he says, after reading these words of Shinjo, I thought that I myself had this fault. This is Dogen. And that he, Shinsho, telling about this Shui Feng, this fight, that he was admonishing me, I have subsequently never argued about the Dharma with others.

[51:34]

So this was when he was 36 years old, so about three years later or so when he wrote San Sui Kyo, he talked in this other way. And so there's some... question about what, was he really criticizing the people in China that he, or was there some other purpose? And so Okamura Roshi brings up that Dogen was gathering students at this time and the students that came to him had come from other places and other teachers. They had come from a school called Darumashu, which was Bodhidharma, Daruma, a new, it was kind of a new school. They had been trained at Mount Hiei, they had had enlightenment experiences or realizations with other teachers, and they were coming to him and he, you know, in one description of Kohun, Ejo Dayosho, coming to talk with Dogen Kohun, who was older than Dogen, a couple years older, is telling him about

[52:52]

practices that he's been doing with these other teachers, including this seeing the mind and seeing the nature, which a little bit earlier he talked about when he talked about, we talked about it the other day, that in the different views of the mountains, you know, seeing it's not, this is not the full understanding, explaining and seeing the nature and all those becoming the Buddha and seeing nature, Kensho, Jo, Butsu. That was Koonejo had been doing those practices. So he comes to Dogen, tells Dogen all about these different practices he's been doing and his dharma and how wonderful it is. And Dogen doesn't argue with him. He just listens to Koonejo, skill and means. And eventually Koonejo asks him about his dharma and Dogen begins to talk about his understanding, and Kohanejo realizes Dogen has a deeper understanding, you know, practice realization and the other teachings of Dogen, and Kohanejo becomes his disciple.

[54:11]

So he didn't argue and criticize, he just spoke Dharma to Kohanejo. But there were these There's these lineages that he was not so happy with Dogen. One in China that gave Dharma transmission to a teacher whose students were coming to Dogen, who was kind of self-taught, maybe a Pratyeka Buddha, didn't have a teacher here, and sent... people didn't study with him because he didn't have transmission, so he wrote a letter to a Chinese teacher about his understanding and the teacher gave him Dharma transmission without ever having met him or seen him or spoken with him. That particular teacher, Dogen, has some difficulty with not having not giving face-to-face transmission, and then his student, this Dainichi Nonin, without having met him, then Dainichi Nonin has this transmission in his teaching.

[55:18]

So anyway, Dogen had some difficulty with that, and the sense might be that he was making this very strong case more to, I don't know, convert these students to his way or something. whatever it is, we're not going to read it out loud again. So I will stop there, and we'll just finish that last paragraph tomorrow. And I wanted to do walking meditation this morning after the lecture, outdoor walking meditation. But are there any questions about... Yes, Ki? Their idea that any saying that is involved with thought is not a Zen saying of the Buddha's ancestors. It's incomprehensible sayings only that are the sayings of the Buddha's ancestors.

[56:21]

So he's criticizing this view. How then do you take things like when Bo's stick and when she's roar and Shaky Muni Buddha just sitting at the seat? Is that the first chord? So if he's criticizing the view that things evolve with thought, not the things that put his ancestors to this, then what about these other things? So he's criticizing that incomprehensible talk, what they understand is incomprehensible talk, is meant to cut off thoughts.

[57:24]

You know, it's incomprehensible to kind of confuse us and make us cut off thinking or thoughts and then that, and that's the purpose of it. So he's criticizing that way of thinking. And their idea that any saying that is involved with thought is not a Zen saying. So if it's a saying that cuts off thought or confuses us or makes us stop thinking, that's a Zen saying. That's the purpose of it. And anything involved with thought isn't a saying of the Buddhist ancestors. Yes? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[58:25]

So, you know, slamming the door on somebody's and breaking their, you know, or twisting somebody's nose or hitting someone with a stick. What is that? You know, the reason they were written down is because they were skillful, means they were appropriate action. The person had some awakening. There's, you know, there was a person in a small group that I was leading who, having read these things about sticks and twisting noses and things, I happened to not be there one evening. And they just met by themselves, the South End Circle met, and there was a new person there. And the new person, I think in the circle at T, mentioned they were writing a paper for college. That's why they had come to the group. They were writing a paper about sitting. And this person person grabbed her by the scruff of the neck, by the kind of collar and kind of shook her around and said, you come to our group just to study it, you know, you should be practicing or sitting or something.

[59:34]

Well, this poor woman thought she was being assaulted, which she was. And he, in talking about it with him later, oh, but this is a Zen thing. I was going to do this Zen thing, you know, and, you know, wake her up. You know, This is like, I was going to do an incomprehensible thing and kind of rough her up and that, you know, totally, totally misunderstanding and, you know, confused about what is, what are these actions of a stick or a twist of the nose or a shout or blowing out the lamp, you know. Is that just to confuse somebody or to stop them from thinking? Or what is it? And how is it, you know, we have so many of these stories, you know, how many didn't work and were never written down, you know?

[60:35]

By people who were just copying, you know, like Gute's One Finger, you know that story? Gute, the master, whenever asked a question, he'd raise one finger. And then his disciple was asked a question, so his disciple raised one finger and, I don't know, did Gute cut it off? I think he did, yeah. Yeah, it was like, is it a true understanding and coming from a true understanding, or is it, what do we say, drinking the dregs? Is it attaching to words and actions and then, I'm going to try that one out. So yelling quats and those kinds of things, is it real? In which case it's not incomprehensible talk. It's comprehensible, it's fully comprehensible with Buddha's mind. So...

[61:46]

So I think there's criticism of people who think the only things that are worthy of, you know, they call these things rather than that there's something to study there. They just say, oh, that's just a confusing thing to make me stop thinking rather than there's a teaching there, there's an expression, these expressions are trying to get at the inexpressible and there's something, it's not just gibberish. And what you said about that first koan, the world honored one, one day the world honored one ascended the seat Manjushri stuck the gavel and said, clearly observe the Dharma of the Dharma king.

[62:54]

The Dharma king is thus. And the world honored one got down from his seat. What is the teaching there? Was that just to make us be confused? I don't think so. I don't think so. I think that compassion in that story covers the earth. And it's for us. It's just for you. It's just for us. I heard when I was in graduate school that there was a therapist who'd been working with a young autistic boy for a long time.

[63:54]

And the boy was pretty completely unresponsive. He just looked at the floor and he met with him very regularly. He tried everything. And one day, out of just frustration for the moment, the therapist threw his pencil on the floor. And the boy reached down and picked it up and gave it to him. that was the first response he'd ever made. And in talking about the course of therapy, you know, therapists often do like a case study. So he was presenting this in a conference and he talked about this moment and, you know, what unfolded after that. And then later he started hearing that other therapists were doing pencil therapy, throwing pencils at little autistic children. And the sounds... ridiculous, that I was thinking, I do this all the time. I'll have some subtle state in zazen, and then I'll spend another several periods trying to do that.

[64:59]

Like, what was that that I was doing? Like, how can I get there? Yes. Like, very subtly. Like, I don't think, oh, I'm trying to get back to that state. But on some level, it's like, there's some little background thinking of why isn't this working? Yes, yes. I want this to be something other way than it is. It's like, I just do pencil therapy. You know? Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. You know, the challenge of sitting in the Dharma seat and not saying every two seconds, Suzuki Roshi said, you know, or I remember somebody who... with Thich Nhat Hanh told me they were going to do a Dharma talk and they were not going to quote Thich Nhat Hanh. They were just like vowed. So this is, you know, but you have this combination of when is it alive for you and you pull out that thing that Suzuki Roshi said, not because Suzuki Roshi said and then you have something to say, but it spoke to you and now you say it fresh if you can.

[66:06]

But there's a, I think all... Everyone who gives a Dharma talk has to work with this. And you can tell if it's not alive for the person speaking and if it's just rote or the dregs, then it's not alive and it's rote for everybody else too. That story about the pencil therapy, there's a story about Hyakujin, Hyakujo. about another teacher sending a very good student to him. The student was pretty ripe and open and sensitive. It's a sad story. Hyakujin, is that the right person?

[67:08]

did one of these shouts or harsh kind of loud voice hitting something. And the young monk, it was too much. And he kind of decompensated her. I don't know what happened psychologically, but he was never able to kind of come back and be a regular monk. He was in the temple for the rest of his life, but just kind of... as a peripheral person, really. So this is mentioned in some recording of this teacher's, this mistake that he made. He was not attuned to the student. He went too far, too fast. He was not, it wasn't an appropriate response, and there was damage done. So this can happen. Are you?

[68:18]

Don't be. I wanted to mention the curl with Nanchuan and the cat. Yes. And Nanchuan kills the cat. But nobody in the assembly gets anything. Nothing comes of it. And so he's telling this to Joshu, to Jiao Jiao. And Jiao Jiao puts his sandals on his head and walks away. And I always thought this to be kind of like an incomprehensible saying where I thought like, Oh, he, you know, just like absurdity or something. But then I read this poem and the commentary, it said, this is like a sign of mourning, putting the sandals on the head, putting what goes on the floor on your head is like being ashamed or having shame or walking out. And then that one says, if you were there, the cap would be the same. So I think the idea is that he, you know, Yoshi was like lamenting this unskillfulness. No, he's criticizing this view that only incomprehensible things are

[69:39]

are what's touted as being the full realization of Zen, that being stuck in that view, not that these acts are not skillful means. I don't think he's criticizing those who are calling them incomprehensible and thinking that the value lies in their incomprehensibility, not that there is something there to study said that this is a raft to get across the river and i often feel like now we just try to make the raft more and more ornate and beautiful and and it has to be that waiting sense i get it that we want to bring the teaching to all being and all you know we took this but sometimes i feel like we're just

[70:54]

just in love with the rap rather than trying to really get across the river. please find a raft that's just right for you. Yeah. It may not look exactly like this. Yeah.

[72:00]

Yeah, yeah. So I think... where you have ka no doko and spiritual communion. One person, they need, because of their sho ho and their e ho, they need a raft that's this way, and somebody else needs a raft that's this way. I think the main thing, though, that you point out is the purpose of the raft. brings to mind that book called Blink that we have in the library from Malcolm Blackwell.

[73:02]

It talks about this from a scientific and secular point of view of what experts know in a moment. And how, like one of the examples, the Getty Museum bought a statue, a Greek statue, and they kept trying to figure out it was authentic. And they spent like 16 months trying to validate it with experts. And several of them felt like it was wrong. They couldn't really, everything, all the scientific data said it was right. And they showed it to a Greek historian who came over and saw it. And he said within two seconds, he knew it was fake. And the phenomenon, he couldn't explain it. It was unexplainable. It was incomprehensible. He couldn't talk about the process that it just happened. him, having been an expert for 35 years. And within that moment, how he knew that this was a thing.

[74:03]

It was just something that was a phenomenon that had the intersection of him coming across an event and he knew. And so somebody else could come and replicate that and walk in the door the same way or what have you. They would have to have that background like a student and a teacher having this unique relationship finding this unique moment. And I think that there's something in the human psyche that just has this ability, once the things have been cultivated, to understand without it being able to be put into any sort of words or replicated. And that sort of thing being conveyed over history just makes it seem incomprehensible. But in just a blink of an eye, Yeah, and sometimes that kind of Dharma eye might look like magic to somebody.

[75:09]

And I think we're cautioned to not use that as power, you know, that somebody might feel like, oh, you read my mind or something. But it's not that. It's not magic. It's the cultivated body, mind, eye, where you understand something. So I think that's true, what you say. And it's also fascinating. Hopefully not too fascinating, because we'll get involved in the raft. I would like to go for a walk. Anybody want to join me? For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[76:16]

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