This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. So now that we've mastered... Satipatthana and all things Thuravadan will segue into Zen. There was a Dharma teacher, Shri Yi, who was a contemporary of the third ancestor, so about a hundred years after Bodhidharma. Bodhidharma is somewhere in the early 6th century. He was early 7th century. And then he went on, Shuri went on, and established the Tendai school.

[01:11]

Although he had some claim as a Zen teacher too, but he never made it into the Zen lineage, official lineage. And you know what happens if you don't make it into the Zen official lineage? Nobody chants your name. But one of the things he did do, he was an extraordinary combination of scholar and meditation adept. And then actually part of the reason that Tendai's school is so complex was because of his capacity to blend both and elucidate both. But here's the reason I mention him. was that he developed what he called the six gates or the six identities, sort of a progression of involvement in practice that ends up with full awakening.

[02:22]

Believe it or not, this has been my guide to the strategy for what to present in this practice period. The first notion is, do you get the basic principle? In Zen terms, the first principle. Do you get the basic notion? The basic notion in Zen is everything. Every phenomenal existence expresses the suchness of what is. and as such illustrates, exemplifies, manifests awakening. That's the first principle. The first book in Hegigan Roku, the Blue Cliff Records, one way to translate it is that the emperor says to Bodhidharma, what's the highest teaching of the first principle?

[03:32]

How is that best expressed in Bodhidharma's emptiness? So get the principle. Then, of course, you have to create an understanding of what's implicated in that and what the proposition that arises from that. From a Buddhist point of view, the implication is the nature of consciousness. If you remember, I mentioned the three characteristics

[04:34]

of phenomena. But you do remember that there was chocolate pudding at the back door yesterday. It was. All three characteristics of phenomena were fully represented. Okay, we'll start there. start in the middle with other dependent, Paritantra. So the chocolate pudding wasn't a mere fantasy that you're so adept at in Zazen. It wasn't a mere fantasy. There was actually something that could be experienced through the sense doors.

[05:36]

tasted in its deliciousness that gave rise to this codependent state of consciousness, this codependent experience. The chocolate, the taste buds, the sense organ of I, and so you have this state of consciousness that arises codependently. Now, you also maybe had along with it a state of consciousness which was entirely your own doing. Maybe it reminded you of your sweet old aunt who made this for you every time you went to visit. Or maybe you took an even bigger leap and thought, you know, when this practice period's over, I'm going to have chocolate pudding every day. for breakfast.

[06:39]

That's called paricampita. It's dependently arisen, or as Rev likes to call it, pure fantasy. And then, through your well-seasoned, deeply established practice, you saw that both these states were mere arisings. Both these states had all the marks of emptiness. They were impermanent. They were codependent in their arising. And any name or attribute attributed to them was just contextual. That anything, all things are only relevant in terms of the context. See? So then you experience thoroughly established parinispana, consciousness.

[07:46]

All that while sitting over there having some chocolate pudding. This is the glory of Zen practice. having heard those smart words, then there is engagement to where I brought in the Satipatthana that sets forth a methodology that tries to fool us into thinking that our human consciousness can be to some degree brought into some sense of semblance of order.

[08:52]

But it's very interesting and instructive that noticing or bear attention, whatever you want to call it, is the initial contact, is the place where we start to make contact, in the Satiputthana and in Zazen. And then from this engagement, we start to craft what's called an approximation. I think way back to Shashin, which was, I don't know, how many days ago now? Ten? Somewhere in the middle of the fourth or fifth day, when you were in the groove, your mind was fairly settled, your willingness to be present with whatever was arising,

[10:01]

even your own karmic horizons, and rather than them immediately being framed and referenced, referenced in terms of what your usual karmic patterns are, they were referenced in terms of the Dharma. They were indeed cognized as mirror risings. There was awareness of that. In your better moments, there was even awareness of awareness. Those were the days. Those were the moments. Fleeting. So, this place of approximation. We're... some knowledge, some understanding, some appreciation, some commitment to the teaching has come into being and then this process of engaging is starting and starting to have its effect.

[11:23]

Not to say that you would let it take root and start to be definitive, heavens no. But there it is, fifth day of Shashin, and this state of being is coming forth. And then part of the other process that we go through is despite ourselves, it's starting to become attractive. So despite the karmic clamor of our being, this starts to seem like not only a plausible proposition, but an attractive proposition. I just threw that in myself. Shurji didn't say that. But it draws us into the fifth state, and the fifth state is what you might call partial realization, where

[12:26]

This way of experiencing what's happening becomes more potent, more viable, more present, and that the karmic horizons, maybe sometimes they fall away completely or they quiet down. And this way of being speaks forth with more, wordlessly of course, with more authority in its phenomenal expression. And then the sixth stage is that becomes what is. It's not merely those brief, sweet moments on the fifth day of Shashin, or the fourth or third, take your pick, it becomes an abiding state.

[13:36]

So this is Shuri's formulation. The six identity gates. Okay. So now, got all that? Sounded a tiny bit familiar? Any questions about that? Yes? The usefulness? To the degree that it's useful to think of ourselves as in a process. Well, what we're trying to do is mess with your habitual karmic formations we're trying to say fine go ahead have karmic formations but they're part of a bigger process rather than your karmic formations defining reality they're just a subset of something else what do you think of that hmm

[14:55]

convinced? No. Oh. It is how it is, right? But that was my notion in mentioning it, and that's my understanding of the usefulness of such things. I think it's often helpful to, and maybe we could See what the rest of you think. I think it's helpful to think of ourselves in a process. Not so much that we can start to judge, engage, but... When you pay attention, you see that many things in our practice have a rhythm to them. I think a current rhythm we may be in is with such a sheen, something settled beautifully and ended on a sweet note.

[16:29]

And then it's not unusual after that, especially when the weather warms up and where we're feeling a little bit more liberated, things loosen up, and then which has its own beautiful attribute, and then another kind of gathering. I would say the gathering, we're constantly regathering reattending to the fundamental vow of practice but hopefully as we do that there's more equanimity there's more matter-of-factness it carries less of the prejudice of our karmic formations it has more simplicity to it

[17:39]

I would say that's where we are. We're in this process of starting to regather, recommit, remember that this last month of practice period is a precious time. And so what, the weather's warming up. We'll just enjoy the weather. Just excuse me. Go ahead, McKenna. So let's say there are moments of this one partial realization. I feel like there's no chance of me ever having any kind of a fighting state unless I'm in session. For me, there's a sadness of leaving session because I feel very Where did they go?

[18:48]

Um, I want that, in terms of the Dharma, is usually not a good place to start. Although we often do. I mean, in some ways, you're asking a question about the very crux of practice. You know, what is a skillful way to work with our karmic formations? And Dogen Zenji in his skillfulness says, well, taking that and looking carefully at that is how we discover how to practice.

[20:09]

And that's the key. So something in the structure we're being held in and something in our own intentionality bringing us back to that place. Okay. What's happening now? What's the response? And what is it to practice with it? And then we'll get into some Zen cons and we'll see another kind of methodology. Friends, we could say the Indian penchant, which was more analytical. And then the Zen style, and maybe it's the Chinese style, it was more poetical. And I don't mean to say one's better than the other, it's just different in style. And I think as we see that, we'll see there can be a shift in methodology.

[21:12]

Do you want to ask something, Steve? will occur simultaneously. Sure. Yeah. And what sort of makes the other apparent? We kind of create space for each other. Yeah. Sure. And I would also say even though, sure, you wrote them out as a sequential process, then that especially after you've been practicing a while you know you can pop up in one or another and not our our karmic life being what it is too we will manifest in a very broad variety of ways and

[22:21]

That, for instance, would be the other reason I think it's helpful to have some sort of through line that it allows you to kind of accommodate the wide range of a human experience. Okay? Any? Sure. There was a famous question. Somebody asked me to just sum it up. I wanted to... to sum up the six steps you just said, because I feel like I listened to all of it, but I didn't articulate in my own mind the six different things other than noticing at the beginning and an abiding process at the end. Well, even before noticing, there was like getting the message, getting the proposition. Sum it up. Let me see what I wrote in my notes.

[23:25]

Maybe that will help you. Getting the message, identifying with the message. Practicing awareness and seeing the three minds, the three characteristics of phenomena. Approximation. partial and complete. And then before Shashin, I was talking about... Okay. Where do you hinder? Where do the hindrances arise? Turning towards the karmic formations to discover how to be skillful.

[24:32]

Then reframing, looking at a certain kind of deconstruction of consciousness, the skandhas. Then taking it one step further and looking at what enters through the sense gates. Then with that as a foundation, starting to look at, and when you start to come into the realm of practice, what kind of attributes facilitate that process? you know, the seven factors of awakening. And then hopefully at that point, they're more of a felt experience than just, you know, something you make a note of thinking, well, really, investigation.

[25:41]

You start to see them in your own lived experience. And so I have a question for you. How was that? Did you feel they were relevant in the process of Shashin? Did you even notice that's what I was talking about? That's what I thought I was talking about. Maybe you thought I was talking about something entirely different. Did you want to ask a question, Heather? Yeah, in a way you could say that

[27:18]

When you start to look at how to stimulate awakening, the seven factors of awakening, you're in the realm of four, this approximation, this of where you're engaging and becoming more influenced by these factors, and these factors are also expressing themselves in... consciousness is manifesting at that time yeah and then so the investigation there is on how to stimulate awakening maybe previous to that the investigation is and okay where do I go off track where where do I sort of lose connection where do I become engulfed in some karmic formation seven days that opened up a little bit more understanding for me especially the connection between investigation and energy and maybe this relates a little bit to what Francis was commenting on or asking about my mind

[28:59]

The habit of my mind is quite linear. And so, for me it was very satisfying to have seven this, six that, three of this. At the same time I felt, this is just feeding the habits of my mind. To see, even just to see a progression. For example, koan practice terrifies me. Maybe we should get going with that a little bit. Just to sort of not get too comfortable with the, even though I found it tremendously useful at the same time, I was quite aware that it was feeding the way I habitually or understand things, and maybe in that way, excluding me from a deeper understanding.

[30:12]

Okay, thank you. Yes? It seems like that was what it was like for me. in 10 minutes of the talk, when she started getting into what of the seven factors you were exploring that day, it was similar to like a co-on practice where it wasn't necessarily that I was intellectually trying to grasp what you were saying, but relaxing into the experience. that these seven factors are always present. That a turning word or suggestion that's felt into, rather than thought about, can really lead into realization.

[31:19]

One of those factors that can fold into the rest. And we had a teaching staff meeting. We were talking about that. We had a great emphasis on words and phrases. So for me, it's kind of like that where I don't necessarily feel a sense of trying to understand what you're saying, but at the same time, the words hit the discerning line in a way that if I can work with it, if I can relax into it, I have the ability to Thank you. I would say part of the contrast is this, to my mind, the notion that the schema of Zen is more poetical in that

[32:33]

It's not actually trying to offer an exhaustive analysis or even a linear, plausible proposition. It's trying to give more sensibility. It's trying to initiate experience. When you look at koans, this is often where you can trip up. If you try to stay too literal, What is the sign of one hand calping? Well, how can there be a sign? There's just one hand. You need two hands to have a clap. But once you let that go and realize that something moving unhindered with its own arising and its own falling away, and you think, oh, well, isn't that just what it is to let the moment be the moment? then it's no longer nonsense it's more an instruction on how to do zazen any other comments?

[33:48]

yes here's what I think. I think it was a kind of stroke of genius when Freud coined the term ego and fitted it into his psychological schema. And then it's curious to my mind, you know, how it became such a pejorative term, you know, where it really, now when we talk about ego, we're talking about, mostly we seem to be talking about sort of self-centered or or selfish perspective or approach.

[34:50]

That's one way of framing the human experience and Buddhist teachings offer different ways to frame it. I think and my understanding of Buddhist teachings is that selfishness and self-clinging is so multifaceted that to just take the term ego, it's so dense in its array of ways that we express it. that it doesn't serve us as well. That's why I prefer Buddhist terms because they will unpack that term into a variety of approaches that I think gives us just the hindrances, the three core phenomenal expressions of consciousness,

[36:10]

the eightfold consciousness, the way that we take in information and process it. I just find it more useful than that singular term. still viable, in a sense, is letting go of the self.

[37:39]

Even though it's still there. The experience is still there. But learning to recognize that this experience doesn't have to be there. Right. And then we start to see, in doing a practice like that, we start to see, this is dynamic, this is interdependent, there's the arising phenomena, there's how it's met. In Buddhist terms, we start to see paritantra. capacity to see it, the learning that arises from seeing it, how to neither make it an issue of control and at the same time not just to be swept away by it.

[38:54]

So in the five factors of awakening, the last two are concentration. Then I offered three notions. One was single-pointed concentration. The other one was continuous contact, and then the third one was momentary consciousness. As we start to settle in and become more present, these terminologies, these factors can start to have a relevance. I suspect almost everybody at some point in Shashin felt present enough that their internal narrative... became background instead of being dominant foreground.

[40:05]

In that moment, quite literally, a different version of reality becomes notable. This is part of the offering of this ... one-pointedness, thorough connection. It can also arise as continuous contact. And sometimes the one-pointedness initiates, as Dogen says in the Genja Koan, and this becomes a continuous process. The clamor of the internal narrative stays quiet and you notice, This awareness is transferable. This awareness can be without an abiding object.

[41:06]

This can be objectless awareness. Of course, this facilitates an experiencing, an insight into, and in a way, transformation of what's considered reality, what's considered the Self. This is the territory of Shuri's fourth and fifth. The challenge now at this part of the practice period is to keep cooking in this process. Not so much that you have to start clinging to your memories of what happened in Sushin.

[42:07]

It's a much more interesting process. When you allow Zazen mind, when you allow Zazen being, what has been taken in will rise to the surface. It's less about you go hunting for it and more about being open and allowing it to arise. And how do we do this? We stay with the basic practice. The basic practice doesn't change. Body, breath, attention to states of mind, attention to mind content. As we start to explore the wonderful world of Zen method, implied within that is the grinding, the continuity of the basic practice.

[43:11]

If that falls away and you're just playing games inside your own head, well, you're just playing games inside your own head. It doesn't matter how... they are or how much Zen jargon they've got in them. They will probably offer you something, but without the roots in the fundamental practice, they will miss something too. Yes? With all these factors, there's what you might call a coarse version, whereas I was saying notice, acknowledge, contact, experience.

[44:32]

But when the mind is saddled and attentive, that's all together. The acknowledging is wordless. The investigation is not a cognitive process at that point. As the mind saddles, consciousness becomes more perceptive. That very process of becoming more perceptive is the vehicle of the investigation. It may simply be that the sound of the creek becomes more textured. And it doesn't feel like, and it's not, oh, is the sound of the creek becoming more textured? Let me see. It arises because of the availability of consciousness. So the investigation at that point is more of that nature. In some ways you could say, well, it's just a natural function of settling consciousness, of a consciousness becoming more perceptive.

[45:41]

Non-directive investigation. Exactly. And then in other places in Zen practice, we'll see, well, then there is some direction. But what I'm saying right now is... sustaining a thoroughly established basic practice. A mind that's willing to keep coming back to momentary awareness. If that facility is not there, then karmic consciousness is running a show. So whatever arises is being processed through karmic consciousness. So to sustain the basic practice. I'm not well versed in Tibetan Buddhism, but it's my understanding that they train for years and [...] years before they'll do objectless awareness.

[46:55]

That's correct. Do you think there's a danger that we could be fighting off more than we can do? No. You know, in a way, when we start, our mind is jumping all over the place. Most of us are not capable of holding an object, so we sort of have to get our feet wet in objectless awareness. We have to develop some resourcefulness in dealing with constantly changing objects arising in our mind. Does that mean we're adepts at it? Does that mean we're sitting in absorption? We're sitting in jhana in this... No, it doesn't. When you say, well, this is...

[48:00]

This is the consequence of a well-trained mind. That's one way to look at it. Those are the very words that Dalai Lama said. In the 80s, he came to Green Gulch and he said, ah, that's very, very difficult, very difficult. Same thing, objectless awareness is a very tough practice. direct the mind see I would say I we start with the basics then we notice what arises no we notice the state of mind this at the state of being that comes up and then you practice with that I would say every period of Zazen you start with the very basics you keep

[49:04]

in mind these three attributes of concentration. You see how they can interplay. You can see the usefulness of momentary contact. You can see the usefulness of pausing in the middle of whatever it is and letting everything go with the exhale and letting everything arise with the inhale. Basic practice. Another thing I wanted to mention was equanimity. There's something... You know, winter practice period has an interesting dilemma to it.

[50:30]

That we start, it's dark, it's cold. We're sincere, deeply dedicated monks. And then it starts lightening up, starts brightening up. starts warming up and and something starts loosening up now in a way this is wonderful no it's good not to be so dour so caught in your own angst no even though that's the reason most of us came here our own my favorite version of that. But this loosening up, it's important not to let it become sloppy. Can you sustain the same dedication to practice without that extra layer of heaviness or... Masochism.

[51:42]

Masochism? Okay. as you wish. It's a little bit like not to ignore spring, but to more let it be an aid to awareness. Not to pretend to yourself that it's actually cold. It's not cold, it's lovely. But don't let your mind drift away to whatever the warm wind wants. Take it as a gift, as a practice gift. But the same way your body can soften in the sun. Let your mind, your breath soften in the sun.

[52:43]

And let this quality of equanimity, Usually we come to practice through suffering. Almost all of us, maybe every single person. And that has with it some agitation, some distress, some deep yearning for things to be different than they are. And this quality of equanimity is to soften that. It's to loosen that. It's to allow... a more matter-of-fact, nothing special state of consciousness. This is the trait, the character of equanimity. And along with that is this

[53:46]

soft mind, this mind that can acknowledge the arising, can relate to the arising and just flow. So as we reach this part of the practice period, our very environment is starting to support us to do that to the degree that we stay rooted in the basic practice, to the degree that we start to shift into other enticing karmic formations, something gets diluted. And because we're so intertwined at this point, we can do that individually and we can do it collectively. So it's very important, that bodhisattva part of you, for the practice of others, that you sustain your individual practice. And I would suggest in the midst of that, with this softness of equanimity, this fluidity of mind.

[55:00]

Okay, so Zen. And, you know, the other reason I'm tempted to mention Tendai is that, you know, Dogen Zenji That was where he started to practice. So he did study Shuri's texts. He did study his six identification gates. He studied his famous... I'll take a look, see if we have a copy of it here. He wrote a famous meditation text in which he said, start by counting your breaths. And then progression is being able to stay with counting your breaths. and then being able to stay with the breath and the body. But since we're all so advanced, I just started with the breath and the body. Now when we look at the first two koans, the first one in the gateless gate, and we look at the first one in the Hikikan Roku, the first one in the gateless gate,

[56:16]

is, you know, does a dog have Buddha nature? And the answer is Mu, you know? Not easily identified under those, the meaning of it's not easily identified under those characteristics, under that setup, you know, the monk asking Jiaoju. Hold on to nothing. Let everything fall away with the exhale. Just let it go. This momentary practice as you move around and you find yourself holding something, whether it's your response to the person you just talked to, positive or negative, or something that has arisen

[57:19]

internally or whatever? Can everything be released with the exhale? Mu. In a way, Zhaozhou is saying, you know, there are all sorts of fascinating questions we could ask about existence. Does a dog have Buddha nature? Well then, what about a cat or a horse? Or a donkey. Or yourself. What is it to let everything fall away and reappear within beginner's mind? So that's a practice I would suggest to you. This momentary dipping down into what is.

[58:23]

And can you couple these two together? Can you couple noticing when you're in the throes of something? Can that be a trigger for dropping everything? So that's what this Kaan's about. When you're in the throes of everything, can you drop it? Not as suppression, not as some kind of aversion, but just drop it. Don't cling to it. More like that. An interesting contrast is the first koan in the Hikigan Roku, the Blue Cliff Records, which most Shusos use. The Emperor of China. Was this a wonderful, skillful question, or was this just an old fool?

[59:33]

As I mentioned, I think, before, Andy Ferguson, a Chinese-American who's a scholar in the time of Bodhidharma, He says that the emperor actually was a very dulyous character, came to power through a lot of ruthless violence, and then tried to make good by building a bunch of temples. So in a way, the question is a little bit naive. Can I buy my way into heaven? Something like that. Another way to understand the question is, as I said, it's profound. What is the deep meaning of the first principle? How do we relate to that? Emptiness. Can we see in any and all moments this interplay of what's happening?

[60:44]

Where does some karmic formation take hold? What's the state of mind that's coming into being at that time? What's the content? How do they all interplay? Don't forget in Bendawa, Dogen's energy, at the very start he says, this awareness, what's this state of being and the awareness it has is the vehicle of transmission that goes from Buddha to Buddha and teacher to teacher that's it what kind of person realizes that The emperor says to Bodhidharma, who are you?

[61:45]

Who are you to say such a thing? What state of being can bring forth that sensibility? Bodhidharma says, don't know. It's very close to sweeping clean with Mu, but slightly different too. What if you just don't know? What if you drop your assumptions about what should happen, what should not happen, what this means, what this doesn't mean? As Carl Jung said, he said, even if I've had a client, a psychoanalyst, even if I had a client I've seen a hundred times, when they come into the room, I remind myself I don't know who they are. What if you went to your work crew this afternoon and didn't know the people you worked with and just paid a little closer attention to who they were at that time?

[62:55]

What if you paid closer attention to who you are at this time? What are the dominant moods, mind states that are coming up for you? What particular topics tend to arise? Are they from the past or from the future? could say can you see them in the light of the first principle they're the suchness of what is can you just let something be what it is without

[64:04]

having to see it through the filter of your own prejudices. And so in the methodology of Zen, in a way we could say these koans were to make our practice portable. So you can carry it off your cushion into whatever you're doing. And then you carry it in your body. You carry it in your posture. With the great support of the Shingi, you carry it in your behavior and your demeanor and your deportment. But also... we can carry the kernel of the koan.

[65:12]

It can be mu. If what you're carrying with you is a three-paragraph notion, well, guess what? By the time you've recalled it, the moment has long gone. But if it's just mu, or if it's just don't know. So that's what I would say. That's what I would suggest. And holding either or both of them with this soft mind of equanimity. Now it's not that you're righting some great wrong in others or yourself. It's more like an experiment of consciousness. It's more poetical than a deliberate strategy to eliminate the hindrances.

[66:22]

More like that. The subtext is, can it keep alive continuous practice? Can it keep you that? that spirit, that intentionality, that vow, can that be kept alive? Can it not just start to slump? Because the energy of our collective practice is dependent upon the energy of each one of us. At this point, we're connected in a way that I would say whether we even notice it or recognize it or not, that kind of collective influence is there.

[67:27]

Okay. Yes? It seemed to me that both the answers, it wasn't like move. It was like move. It was like the shop of it was a demonstration to the other that they had an understanding of that awareness. Like you said initially to Francis' question, that it's helpful to understand that we're all going through a process. Every one of us is in the same process. So we're all in the same world because we're all going through the same process. If you can cut through this process with this practice of Mu, of the shot of who you really are, you're showing that face to the other individual that's involved in these koans.

[68:31]

And that allows beings to be liberated from that process. But, you know, we have to be so careful with that kind of approach, because then Then a shout carries it and a whisper doesn't. A whisper may be the appropriate response in that particular situation. Yeah, but what I'm saying is not to have a fixed idea in our head. It's like, oh, energy. I think it's a wonderful practice to give forth with full volume khan zayan. I think it's a wonderful practice. But it's not the only practice. It's a practice. Sometimes Mu, with that spirit, as we chant khan zayan, give it everything.

[69:36]

But sometimes it may be a simple, quiet inner working. that you see in yourself. The clinging is asking for, kind of like just letting something open and fall away. And then I would say, don't add something extra. Don't start yelling at yourself. Just let it fall away. When the time to give it that full moo. Okay, that too. You know, this versatility is also part of the hallmark of the Zen way, you know, the variety of response. I think what you're saying, I really understand that way.

[70:59]

Okay. Thank you. Okay. Any other? Yes. I did. They were Paricalpita. And you already have them in your notes, I think. paritantra, parikampita, arises out of your consciousness. You make it up. It's like when you're sitting in Zazen and you make up a beautiful story and float away on it. And have a wonderful trip. Or a terrible trip, depending on the story. And then paritantra is that it arises in relationship to something other than arising out of your own consciousness. It's interdependent. And then the other one is seeing through both, seeing the nature of emptiness, the nature of impermanence, and that's parinishbana, parinishbana.

[72:14]

It's thoroughly established or When I say awareness, Mostly I'm talking about sati, mindfulness. When I say consciousness, mostly the common usage of the words vijnana and mind. Yeah, well, I think she won.

[73:21]

That's what she was asking for in the terminology. Okay. Well, consciousness, thank you. Consciousness as that spark of being that's present in each moment that can be collective or individual. And And then mind, sometimes the same thing, or sometimes when it's individual. But it seems to me then like that awareness seems to me the way you're using it is not like ultimate awareness, but you're using it as the ability to be mindful.

[74:39]

One of the set factors of awakening is mindfulness is the first factor. And that seems to rely on people's ability to be, you know, it's, in a way it comes out of, so it seems more directly related to our personal consciousness or the consciousness itself and it's different somehow from awareness maybe. Could you say that again? You lost me somewhere in there. It seems like I'm referring more to an individual experience rather than something larger. I'm not sure how to respond to that because awareness is a word in the English language, right?

[75:47]

Then we're talking about how it's used in the contemporary setting, how the word awareness is used in the contemporary setting. When I use the word awareness, I think of it, or sati, I think of it as a continuum. It can be momentary, can be fleeting, can be heavily influenced by the other attributes of self or not. It can be well established, it can be unprejudiced, it can have deep realization. I think of it as a continuum. To me, the illustration is the word noticing. Even when your mind is quite active, you can notice.

[76:54]

Can you attend to what you just noticed? Maybe not. Maybe your mind is too active. In that moment of noticing, was it perceptive? As I was saying to Shogun, as the mind settles, it becomes more perceptive. Or when consciousness settles, it becomes more perceptive. So yeah, there's a variety to what's apprehended by awareness. When you're not being mindful, there's still awareness. When you're lost in thought, there's still an awareness that's not contingent on your mindfulness. No, there isn't. The very... the very distinguishing characteristic of awareness is that it's aware, that there is awareness. There's still consciousness, but not necessarily awareness of what the consciousness is involved in.

[78:02]

I think it's a common experience. We all come back and sometimes we don't even know. What was I just thinking? Where was I? I don't remember. We have that experience. There's consciousness there because what was created was the function of consciousness, but not necessarily awareness. See, I am mindful that I'm holding a pen.

[79:11]

That's a very complex construct. There's all sorts of assertions within that. with the practice of don't know. Don't know that there's a subject to this awareness. Don't know that what's apprehended has the name pen. Don't know that this activity has the verb holding. I would suggest maybe look at some of those and think in terms of consciousness.

[80:27]

As I said, to my mind, The identifying mark of awareness is that there's awareness. If you take away awareness, you have taken away the very nature of it, so it doesn't exist. Your consciousness has changed. There may or may not be. There may be awareness, there may not be awareness. But there's consciousness all the time. Yes? The three characteristics of phenomena.

[81:34]

seem to be describing very similar things in slightly different ways. They are. You're correct. Could you clarify where they diverge in terms of what they're trying to describe? Where they diverge. In the three characteristics of phenomena, in that schema, it's trying to describe the nature of consciousness. In the three marks of existence, it's trying to describe characteristics of existence. So they're interrelated, but the emphasis or the subject

[82:42]

different you know this is a description about existence this is his description about existence about consciousness excuse me consciousness which also is in existence but yes okay okay thank you Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[83:29]

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