This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good afternoon, everybody. Do people kind of filter in? Or is this it? Okay. So my voice doesn't carry so easily, so if you can't hear me, then you have to signal in the back. I'll try to project my voice. Okay. So I... Well, I'll start by telling you just a little bit about myself.

[01:00]

My name is Tenku, and... What? My teacher lives in Japan, and I was in monasteries in Japan. And prior to that, I was here in the West as a layperson, also in monasteries. When I finished my novice training in Japan, I... came back to the States and did training to become a chaplain. So I have that hat and have worked as a hospice chaplain and palliative care chaplain. And I went to graduate school at a Tibetan Buddhist graduate school. And I say that because you might notice those things coming in sometimes too. And currently live in New York. So there you go. I advertised two topics for today's class and they were the Dharma of making mistakes and the generosity of freedom from fear.

[02:08]

And people said, the feedback was people wanted to hear the generosity of freedom from fear, but I decided I wanted to talk about mistakes. So I tried to find a way to combine them and we'll see how that works. And the point of connection that I found was on barriers to intimacy and what holds us back from being completely present with each other and completely present with ourselves. And I thought that also follows Reverend Chimio's talk yesterday. Well, she started on that. So I'll talk first about mistakes. Because they're, you know, it sounds kind of like snakes a little bit. It's like, that's my biggest fear personally. And that's what I've worked with a lot myself. So that feels really real to me. I think I tend, I don't think, I know, I tend to be a perfectionist.

[03:16]

And for a long time, I had this idea that I was gonna come to Zen. And I was going to practice diligently and really do everything right. And one day, I was going to be enlightened and, you know, get the magic stick. And I would know how to do everything right. Perfection, you know, I think I even articulated that early that I wanted to know what to do in every single situation. And I can report today that I found an answer and I do know what to do in every situation. And I'll say that that is to be willing to admit when we mess up and to be willing to mess up. So if we have that willingness and that spaciousness around ourself, then that is perfection in itself. That is the way that we do this.

[04:21]

So, yeah, so I was practicing and learning how to do things and learning how to hit the bells just right and learning how to, you know, walk correctly. And a couple of things shook me up, and I'll share what those are. One of the things is... I went back to Japan. I had been practicing in the West for a while. And I went back to my early teacher's temple with the intention of ordaining there. And pretty soon after I did ordain, he, maybe right before, actually before I ordained, right when I got there, he said, so you're gonna be Doan today. And I said, you know, okay. I'm a little nervous about this, but okay. And the way that we do doan in our style of training is the doan does everything.

[05:28]

So we hit the bells. We lead the chants. We don't use a mokugil. We use a taiko. So we have to do the drum. And you have to also, I don't know, like you have to run up and prepare the incense and run back and sit down. You have to do everything. So, you know, I tried. I did my best effort. I did it the first day. And then the next day I show up and my teacher says, um, so anyway, um, some people are going to come by today for a memorial ceremony. So you'll be done. And I was like, Oh crap. And so I was like, I can't, I can't do it. And he said, you'll be fine. And I was like, but you know, this tent is in Japanese and it's really long. And, um, And my Japanese was weak at that point. And I didn't have the chant memorized. And he was like, it's okay. You'll be fine. And so I had no choice. So I said I would do it. And I did it. And it was abysmal.

[06:32]

It was so bad. And these were guests in the temple. They were all, you know, kneeling perfectly at the front. And it just... You know, none of the bells were right. I couldn't follow the pronunciation. It was just, you know, awful. And so the people left and my teacher and I left and I felt like I wanted to cry. I felt really terrible. And we got to the door of the Hondo or the main hall and I went to shut off the lights And I said to him, I was like, oh, Hojo-san, that's what we call your teacher. And I said, that was so terrible. I am so sorry. I feel so bad. And he looked at me and he just took in how I was.

[07:33]

And usually, you know, I'm sure you've heard stories of Japanese teachers, you know, bashing you with the stick or criticizing. And he said, He said, that's okay. I didn't teach you well enough. We'll practice tomorrow. And then we're done. That was it. And that was so freeing that it's okay to mess up because you get to try again tomorrow and it's all part of it. And I started to realize that making mistakes is the practice. That's what we're doing. We're not being perfect. We are doing this and we're messing up and we're doing it the next day and we're messing up and then we're doing it again and then we're messing up. And it's the messing up that's important. It's not the doing it right. It's the not just being willing to try and mess up, but being willing to admit it and accept it.

[08:44]

And this was huge for me. So that's what I wanted to start with today, making mistakes. Oh, I was at a retreat with Sharon Sogsberg recently, and when she teaches people about following the breath and watching your thoughts, you know, we have this classic teaching that we should follow the breath. And then when we have a thought, we just don't push it away, don't follow it, but return to your breath. And she made the point that the most important action is not the no thought, following thought, but learning, the teaching ourselves to catch it and return. catch it and return, the exercise, as she called it, of catching it and returning. And that's what mistakes are. We catch them and we return.

[09:47]

One of my favorite verses from Koan, I think of it as my personal theme song in Zen, which is, it's from Pyakoujo's Fox, not falling, Not ignoring two faces, one die. Not ignoring, not falling. A thousand errors, a million mistakes. And if I was to think of a way to describe my practice, it would be a thousand errors, a million mistakes. And what a relief that this is what it's about. At least for me, it is. So the second real aha moment was... I had ordained. I had brushed up on my Japanese. But the next big hurdle was coming, which was I had to go to the women's monastery in Japan, the Nisoto.

[10:51]

And they're famous for being really, really, really strict there. And so I was really scared. And so I called up. one of my early teachers, and I was like, Paul, you know, I'm really nervous. And he's like, what are you nervous about? And I said, well, you know, my polite Japanese isn't very good because, you know, they have all these levels in Japanese and the highest level, you just don't use it very much in everyday language. And he said, so what? And I said, well, yeah, but, you know, it's not very good. And he's like, well, what are you afraid of? And I said, well, I'm going to offend people. And he's like, Tinku, you've already offended at least 51% of the people there. And I, what are you talking about, Paul? And he said, well, you're an American and you're going to their monastery. So you've already pissed most of them off. So you may as well get over that and just start from there. And so I was like, you know, he's right.

[11:53]

He's totally right. And so I went and I started from the bottom. And I was always the bottom person. And everybody told me what to do. And when they told me what to do, I said yes. And sometimes they told me to do things that were strange or not logical. And there's only one response you're allowed to have, and that's hype, which is yes. That's it. So they tell you things, and you're like, That really makes no logical sense to carry this bucket over to the kitchen when I know that the Tenzo doesn't want the bucket in the kitchen. But she told me to carry it. So I take it, hike, I carry it to the kitchen. I get to the kitchen, I put it down. The Tenzo says, get this bucket out of the kitchen, hike, get the bucket out of the kitchen, put it somewhere else.

[12:56]

And you know what? It's not my problem. Because I'm the lowest person and my job is to make mistakes. And it's their job to know what to do with the bucket. So huge relief. So that is the, that's where I wanted to start today. How to make mistakes and why they're so important. So our mistakes are the most vital part of our learning. That's where the real juice is. Yeah. So I had this friend Allison, or her name used to be Yuko. She liked to create mistakes on purpose in the monastery. Here's a couple of them. She made a bet. And the bet, the loser of the bet was betting against her.

[13:58]

So there's a good chance you're going to lose. If she lost, then she had to go into the Zendo when it was full for retreat, and she had to do a pratfall. And if I lost, the bathrooms were pretty near the Zendo, so I had to come into the Zendo with a piece of toilet paper stuck to my foot. That really also is the third thing I wanted to say is mistakes teach us not to treat ourselves, take ourselves too seriously. Because my utter horror of anything in the world would be coming into the Zendo with a piece of toilet paper on my foot. But the idea that you could actually, I'm not suggesting that you do that here, because actually I didn't do it, but that you could do that. with somehow again freeing that you don't have to be perfect all the time.

[15:00]

The thing about what we do when we are conditioned to think that we can be perfect all the time, then that not only conditions us to start to criticize ourselves But there's always a counterpart to criticizing ourselves, and that's criticizing others. So when we have the idea, I have to be perfect, then we start to want other people to be perfect too. And then that leads to criticism. But when we had the idea that it's okay that I make mistakes, and then I try again, and then I make another mistake, then that gives us some spaciousness. around the people around us. And I'm not advocating on slapping off or being lazy and not doing your work, but I'm advocating to accept that there's always space to mess up and there's always space to improve.

[16:17]

So I'm gonna return to this because the next question is, what do we do about it when we mess up? And that's why I wanted to talk about this topic today as the start. So when we live in community, there's so many chances to mess up and being so tightly packed in, it's really important to catch those quickly. And I know that y'all have done some trainings in how to have difficult conversations. So what I'm gonna talk about today is a little bit is how to repair and how to start to work with it when we do mess up, especially with other people. So I'm gonna come back to that because I also promised to talk about the generosity of freedom from fear and to connect it to this. So generosity of freedom from fear is just like it says. It comes from, I think it appears in some of the root texts, but I learned about it from the Lam Rim Chimpo, which is one of the root Tibetan texts.

[17:30]

And there are three kinds of generosity. There's generosity of material goods and things. There's the generosity of freedom from fear. And there's the generosity of the Dharma. Generosity of the Dharma is usually the role of monks and nuns. That's the traditional role. Generosity of material goods and things has traditionally been the role of lay people. Right there in the middle is generosity of freedom from fear. And once I learned about this, I started thinking about it all the time. What does that mean? How can we... offer other people freedom from fear? How can we practice that? And the main thing about it is stretching a little bit. And I'll give you an example.

[18:32]

I was in Japan many, many years ago with a close friend pretty soon after I moved there. And We were walking down the street, and we came to a very narrow crossing with a stoplight. And the road was so narrow, you could almost jump across it. It wasn't big at all. And so what? You know, I'm American, so what do I do? It's got a red light, and I just plow on a cross. And my friend was like, no, Tenku, you can't. And I'm like, hello, there's nobody here, and why would I wait? when there's no cars. And she was like, well, look at this road. And so I looked at it, and like I said, it was narrow, but the thing was, it had a really sharp curve. And she said, if a car comes around that curve and sees you in the crosswalk when you're not supposed to be there, then you're gonna really scare them.

[19:37]

And I was like, oh, yeah, she's right, you know? it would be really shocking to come around a blind curve and see a pedestrian in your green light. And then she pointed across the street and she said, also look at those kids over there. And they're a group of little elementary school kids with their little red and black backpacks. And she said, if those kids see you, at the time I was a teacher, but it would still be true for me as a priest, If those kids see you crossing against the light, then they're going to think it's okay. And then you put them in danger. So then I was like, oh. And what I really appreciated about that was it stretches you out. It stretched me out of my own needs and my own ideas to open my peripheral vision to those around me.

[20:40]

And how can I offer freedom from fear to those around me? So freedom from fear, that's basically how you do it, is you think about it and you consider ways that you might do it. And then you start to do it. And that's it. There's not a long teaching on it. It's that you have to think about it. So easily said, done, right? So the thing is you have to understand fear. And so I'll mention that a little bit and I'll talk about that. And you also have to understand compassion. But today I'd like to focus more on the fear side. We have to be intentional about cultivating compassion. And the only way we can get there is by looking at our own fears.

[21:43]

So we all have compassion as part of us, as this reaction. You know, you'll see, like, there'll be, like, a hurricane or there'll be a disaster somewhere. And everybody, you know, pays to the GoFundMe. Or they all want to volunteer. So that's what happens when compassion is a reaction. It's a very natural response for all of us. But what we have to do is to cultivate that intention to have that compassion on a day-to-day level, not just as a reactionary thing. And one way that we do that is to start to look at fear. Fear is something that prevents us from having that scope. When we're afraid, and we've all experienced it, What do we do? We shut, right? And whether that's fear that comes up internally or fear that comes from external circumstances, it causes us to start to shut.

[22:47]

So we have to find ways to open again because it's so rooted in this protection of ourselves, but it leaves out the whole rest of the universe. And one way that we can really start to face our fears is through our Zazen practice. And, you know, I know that people have experienced this, and I'm still going to say it again. When things come up that are uncomfortable, we don't push them away, and we don't obsess over them. We just sit in it. We allow them to be. We let it go. We allow it to come up and we let it go. Maybe it's sad, comes up, we let it go. Whatever it is, comes up and we let it go. We don't grab it, but we don't push it away.

[23:49]

And I think a lot of us have this idea that on that magic day, when we get the magic stick and all of our problems go away, that we'll never be sad again. or we'll never be afraid again, or we'll never have any difficulty, and it's just not true. What it does is, what our practice does is give us the tools to handle it. When we live our lives in this constant fear, then we're always building more walls surrounding us and making this bigger and bigger barrier that actually, yeah, it insulates us, but it keeps others away. And it's the connections that are going to save us. Some ways that we do that, just some really practical things. You know, what do we do when we're scared? I'm scared of starving to death.

[24:50]

Then what am I going to do? Maybe I'll get a job that pays a lot of money. I'm scared on the road. I'm scared I'm going to be in a car accident. So what am I going to do? Maybe I'm going to buy an SUV. Maybe I'm going to buy a big Volvo. I'm scared of the woods. I'm scared of snakes. So maybe I'm not going to go there. So what do those things do? We have the well-paid job, and it starts to create a barrier between us and the people around us and the suffering around us. We have the big car. Yeah, it's safe, but safe for whom? Is it safe for the people in the little bitty Honda Fit or little tiny smushable car? No, it's safe for me. If we don't go in the woods, do I protect myself? Maybe, but I prevent myself the intimacy of knowing the area around me and the forest that's part of my life.

[25:57]

Generosity gets us out of this trap where we're stuck. And that would be the benefit of practicing generosity. So what do I want to say? Because when we really start to connect, that's when our fears start to dissipate. When we really start to know something. That's when it goes away. I mean, even a snake seems pretty scary. But if you start to learn about it and how it lives and even maybe touch it, see what it feels like, then it's just another being, you know, living in the same environment that we share. And we can give it some space, you know. You don't have to step on its house if you learn where its house is. And you don't have to... stay out of the whole habitat if you know a little bit more about it.

[27:00]

And that's the same with people. The more we know each other and the more we really start to get to know people who are not just alike us but different from us, the more points of connection we have and the more open we can be. So I said I was going to talk about... Well, I'll say one more thing first. We have to move from a place of... thinking, how will people treat me? And think about that, just try it on. You're going into a new situation and you think, oh, I wonder how people are gonna treat me there. That's really fear-based, right? And then what else is it? Really focused on me. I wonder what they're gonna be like at this new place called Tassahara, where it's full of a whole lot of people that I don't know. It's terrifying. I wonder how they, those people out there, are going to treat me.

[28:03]

So the way we get out of that trap is to shift our focus from that to how can I minimize any feelings of hurt that I might cause others? So it's just like, you know, the crossing the street example. Rather than thinking, what do I want to do? how can I be in the world that minimizes harm to you? Shift from, I'm not sure if that person likes me, to how can I be kind to that person? It really shifts the focus, right? So that's the way we survive. And this takes courage. And, you know, like, We get courage through our practice, and we get courage by trying it out and making this our habit pattern. How do we do this?

[29:05]

When we try it out a little bit, then it goes well, then, oh, I can try that out again. I mean, I grew up pretty shy and very phobic about talking to new people, but then I traveled, and there's no one to talk to except strangers if you're by yourself in a foreign country, and pretty soon you're over the hurdle. They're actually, they're okay. It's okay to do that. And then I started to develop confidence. And then that confidence helped me to talk to more people. And then that started to grow. Or I can think of an example when I was practicing at an American temple and there was a woman that I practiced with who really got on my last nerve. She really bugged me so much. And you know what? It was a really unpleasant feeling. I did not like it. And I didn't know what to do about it.

[30:06]

I felt, like I said, really trapped. There's this woman and she bugs me and I don't like the feeling that arises in my body when she's bugging me. So what am I going to do? And I didn't know, you know, I really puzzled it over for a lot and sometimes we fought and that didn't feel good either. And so one day I saw her shoes out in the hallway and somebody had given me these really special truffle chocolates. And I was like, I'm gonna give her one of these. And so I stuck it on her shoe and I can't say that it was a generous act There was probably a little bit of, I don't know, not really spite, but like, not so nice. And then I happened to be in a public area, and she came down, and she was beaming. And she was like, somebody put this really special chocolate in my shoe, and I have no idea who it was.

[31:13]

And I was like, heh. I'm the last person you would expect, aren't I? But, you know, something shifted. And I noticed that it felt good to make her happy. And so then I wanted to do it again. And I think I put another chocolate in her shoe before I was able to just actually talk to her at dinner and, you know, ask her how her day was. And we became friends after that. as different as we were, like night and day. And she was somebody I appreciated. So just a little act of generosity in there can shift your focus. So these are Tenku's pragmatic tips for getting along with people in a very tight living situation where you're all smushed together. Very small community. Try shifting your focus from what do I need to how can I best help others?

[32:23]

And also try making a little extra space. And also try making mistakes and making some space around making mistakes. Because you know what? Yeah. We're all making mistakes pretty much every moment of every day. And if y'all can have a little bit of space around my mistakes, I would be really grateful. We don't need an explanation. Just a, okay. Or maybe an apology sometimes. And that's what I wanted to move into next. This is a magic trick that I learned a couple years ago. through this training that I did called the right use of power training. And I have tried this magic trick a number of times and it really works. And I promise you that it will work if you follow the formula. And the trick is how to make an apology.

[33:27]

It really seems easy. Because, you know, I'm sure that everybody else was forced by your mom when you were a little kid or your dad to say, oh, sorry, you know, I didn't mean to hit you. And you're like, yes, you did mean to hit you. No, I don't want to say I'm sorry. I say you're sorry. So we've all been through that, and that's not what I'm advocating for here. I'm going to teach you the formula, and then I'm going to give it to you, and then we're going to practice it. Okay? So... We all know which formulas don't work. And I'm gonna ask if anybody has examples of an apology, maybe even a real one that you have received that just fell flat. I'll start with mine and then I'm gonna ask you to step in. So mine is this, somebody actually told me this. I'm sorry, you trigger something in me and I don't like that about myself.

[34:32]

Did I feel better? And what were they sorry for? They were sorry for me being me, so that didn't feel so good. So anyone else out there? We've seen a lot of them recently with the Me Too moment going on, but you can stretch there if you need. I know you've all had them. Oh, yes. I'm sorry for what happened. What happened? You know, vague. I'm sorry that you're alive. I'm sorry that the world exists. I'm sorry that it... What is what happened? What else? Think of that time where you just felt like... I usually don't get much out of people apologizing for my emotion. I'm really sorry that made you feel bad. Exactly. It made me feel bad, and other people wouldn't have felt bad, and I don't know what it was. I love it. Yeah. I'm sorry that made you feel better.

[35:36]

So what did I do? Where am I in that? Yes. Maybe just apologizing and there's a way to connect. It feels like it's not just meeting. It's like, hi, we are together. And one person is apologizing over something that actually didn't impact me. It's too vague. Oh, so there's nothing to apologize for? Yeah. That's another good example. Yes. So a lot of times, we're kind of apologizing on guilt, right? Uh-huh. And it's all about, that's all about me wanting to feel that, right? Yes. I just want to alleviate my guilt. And so, you say it, and then the person... You know, it's like they know. You know, you're saying that you can feel better. You might really care.

[36:37]

I mean, and I have to just know. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we talked about it. And one of the issues that came up was situations where apologizing doesn't know. You know, just saying, just saying that I'm sorry. Yeah. Right. And we're going to talk about why. Can you make work? And can make it worse. Yes. Okay. What else? I'm guilty of this one myself. I apologize that there's an excuse right in there. And it's kind of long. I'm sorry about yesterday, but I didn't need to. I was really tired and I was like, and my dog just got sick and then I had to take it. But you still did that thing that you did at the end of the day. Yeah. Okay. So I think we've all received apologies that don't work. And sometimes we can feel confused about how to, why didn't that work?

[37:37]

It doesn't feel right. But how do we move forward and make an apology that works? And this is a magic formula, again, that you're all going to get. And you can keep it forever and treasure it and put it up on your altar because you're going to need it. You're going to live together with people. First thing that you want to do is you got to figure out what you did. So, you know, we talk about sometimes we have an intention to do something right and we mess up and we accidentally hurt somebody. Sometimes we we hurt somebody through being negligent. Sometimes we do something and we just mess up. You have to figure out what it is because it doesn't help to apologize for something that you didn't do. There's no reason to say I'm sorry when you didn't do anything. So what did you do? What exactly did you do? So you got to hone in on that first. And what this is going to do is they let the person know that you understood what you did and that it lets them feel really seen.

[38:40]

So the next thing that you want to do, and when you do that, you're going to acknowledge that what you did was hurtful or harmful or just careless, whatever it was, but you have to be able to name what it is and be very specific. So somebody mentioned the too general apology, and that doesn't work because it doesn't name it. I think you mentioned that. And the next thing you do is you take full responsibility for what you did. No more. Don't take responsibility for, you know, food shortages in Africa if all you did was drop a cup of coffee on the floor. So, you know, like, just hone it in. And know what you did. And then just take responsibility. Because it's really not that big of a deal just to own it. You don't want an excuse. That doesn't help. In fact, it kind of hurts. You don't want to blame.

[39:43]

No explanation. And no defensiveness. Just say it. Go ahead and say it. Whatever it is, once you've honed it down, that's going to help you to be able just to own it. Because that fine-tuning lets you know, oh, yeah, I really did that. Oops, I'm really sorry. And then that's the next step. That's all. Just say those two words. I'm sorry. Period. Or I apologize. Period. Personally, I'm sorry. And nothing else is going to do. If you can't say those two words, then don't even waste your time going here. Get to those two words. And then the next thing you got to do is do a little more. So it's not just now you're kind of at even. But if you want to repair that relationship, then add a little extra. You tell them how you're not going to repeat what you did in the future.

[40:48]

And you give them some specific. And then you tell them what you learned from it. then that gives them some assurance that you're not gonna do it again. Because really, you have to have the intention never to do it again. Otherwise, why are you bothering apologizing? Does that make sense? So now we're gonna try it. I have the magic formula, as promised. I'm gonna pass it out. And what we're gonna do is I want everybody to think of something real that you did. If it's something about someone here, You might want to change the time and the place and some details and some, you know, but come up with that genuine feeling in yourself of regret. Think of something you did that you would like to apologize for. And then we're going to get in pairs and there's going to be a person who accepts the apology and the person who gives it. And then we're going to do that. The recipient says, is gonna give you feedback on whether or not your apology felt genuine.

[41:52]

And then we're gonna switch. So we each get to try it. Yes? Yeah. Did what you did cause harm? Did it hurt somebody? Then figure out what exactly in that, where the harm was and fine tune it. Yeah. I had a case. I'll let you start. I had a case with a friend, a close friend, where I really hurt her. And what I did was I invited her to come to a meeting. And then I got really busy and she ended up, everybody went to dinner and she ended up being by herself.

[42:57]

Now, did I intend to do that? No. But was she hurt? Yes. So that like it took some some fine tuning for me to figure out what I did that hurt her. And what I did was I didn't pay enough attention to her. I should have noticed that she was by herself and I should have checked in with her. And so I can say, I'm sorry, I didn't check in with you, and then what? You must have felt really alone, and I feel terrible about that. In the future, if I invite you to something, I'll text you before everyone else goes to dinner, just to make sure that you're included. And then done. And what this does is, once we're in a place where we need to apologize, if we can make a genuine apology, That's what deepens our relationships with each other. This is where real growth happens. And this is where intimacy becomes possible. Intimacy is not about being nice with everybody.

[44:00]

And nice is good, but intimacy is recognizing when we mess up and repairing it and coming out on the other side. Because that friend and I now are a lot closer because we were able to do this. So I'll let you go ahead, and then I'll ring the bell in about five minutes, and then we'll switch, and we'll have another five, and then we'll have a little feedback. And yes, we have a question. Can we get a look at how making the amends with our mothers? Sorry, I stopped with your wife. Okay. So, okay. That's the arm. You're arming eventually. Okay. Well, just think about yourself, though. So you did it. You slept with somebody's wife or partner. So what did you do wrong? And you hurt your friend?

[45:07]

Yes. And did you violate their trust? Oh, God. Oh, God. Where you're actually causing more harm. Oh, I see. More harm by the apology. That's a good consideration. In this case, don't do something that big. Let's start with something smaller. Okay, go ahead and get into pairs. And you can spread out. I like you. Does anybody laugh? Do you want to do this? What about here? Do you have your paper?

[46:17]

Yeah, go ahead. I do this all the time. I mentor people in recovery. All the time, so we do a men's kind of process. And so these things are really nice. It's nice to have a piece of paper with a formula on it instead of just me. Magic. Yeah, kind of thing. Yeah, that's the idea. So try it out. Yeah. So I'm going to think of... Actually, you know what? Yes. Some people are having harm. So the other day, you know, we were having this conversation and talking about... that we both care for very much. And I just call her the power. And Sarah Fren, saying that's weird because it's not actually how I see how about the results. It's kind of, it's really unbearable. She's kind of talking about holding that way.

[47:18]

She says, I want to apologize for her. And she's kind of like, We go forward conversations very much. The way we talk about them, because I know we will have a strong relationship to them, but that is the language that helps for us to work on our relationship with each other. So I apologize if that's uncomfortable. Because you do this all the time, I'm going to miss you. Yeah, yeah, please. You didn't think how you felt. And I would suggest how you felt about it when you realized you talked about it. After the barracks. Okay, that's okay. That's a gay speaking accent.

[48:27]

Yeah, yeah. So just a second. I was honest. You were honest to the end, and then you put the end. Sorry if that button. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, the if. Leave out the if. Yeah, because the if told me to say more about that. What is the if? The if was like, I get it, but I want to hear it. It takes out the feeling of exactly what you think. Right. That you're confident. Yes. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah, right. Why would you say if I did? You actually did. Yeah, that's right. That's our way of, like, to learn some. Oh, what about even, but I was going to kind of just say, like, I'm sorry if that made you feel uncomfortable, because that's actually, I don't actually know, right? Like, I don't just have any feedback. whether it is or not. It also makes an assumption.

[49:28]

That's sliding over so to annotate your feelings. Less about acknowledging what you did wrong. It might have made them feel uncomfortable. But I think it's more solid just to stay in what you want. I felt like I was focusing on that. I felt uncomfortable. So I think that's... I did X, too. Yeah. You know, I feel terrible about it. Yeah. I felt embarrassed that I did that. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. And then I would say, what are you going to, you said, oh, I know, the last thing was, when you got into the hair part, you started using weed instead When we were talking in the future, I promise you that I will not go down that road in a little crowded barracks.

[50:41]

So go ahead and switch if you haven't switched. Last week I said I could give you a call, and I didn't. And I feel terrible about it. I got really busy. I thought, and I felt really bad. I know it was waiting for me to call. And I call. So sorry.

[51:42]

In the future, we're going to make sure to put it in my account. And I'm going to set an alarm. But I know I'm forgetting it. And so that alarm will get off and invite me to call you. So I'm never going to repeat this again. And if I do, you know, I'm sorry. It's hard to do, isn't it? Yeah, and also what's interesting is that I like how you said, I'm sorry, but you're saying I'm sorry I let you down or any of those things. It does such a tiny, small, subtle detail, but like actually making, you know, that It's so codependent, it's that kind of language, it's so codependent, so key kind of, right? Because like it could be, you know, it's like where you just say, look at that, so you're a pounder, you're saying, you don't know if you've got to let the person out, if they feel let down or, you know, if they even remembered.

[52:43]

Right, exactly. You know what I mean? They haven't, right? Yeah. And you're not doing this kind of like, this kind of language to embrace that. It's just a free place. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. Smartest example. Yeah. Especially when you go. Yeah. But I'm not a terrible person. Yeah. I really want to be here. Oh, God. Yeah. So, okay. Great. I want to talk to tomorrow. Are you here for me? What time? Through tomorrow? Yes. Yeah. There's an apology right there. ... [...]

[53:58]

Yeah. Yeah. . [...] So go ahead and wind down and come back.

[55:08]

So what did you notice? Is there anything you want to share? Or observations or questions? Yes. Connection. Yeah. Yeah. Can you say more? Yeah. Okay, yeah. We can circle back, take a minute, yeah, yeah. I'd say as soon as I recognized vulnerability happening, empathy was discovered.

[56:15]

Oh, really? Yeah. Huh. I just came up in the immediate response to perceive the vulnerability. I sent it. Uh-huh. Yeah. Wow. Cool. All right. Anyone else? Yeah. Speak up so everyone in the back, too, can hear me. I have a question around, I guess, the apology that I... that I was used for this exercise was one in which I made a mistake, and a number of people affected it, but I didn't necessarily receive any feedback that hurt them, or that they were, yeah, hurt by me. It turned out to be okay, but it didn't seem right for me to not apologize for taking responsibility for a mistake. Okay. So... So this is really about when we cause harm to others?

[57:36]

I mean, of course you need to. If I spill this and it falls all over Greg's clean pants, then of course I'm going to say I'm so sorry. And I can still use the formula. I'm so sorry. I was careless. I wasn't paying enough attention. I won't do it again. I'll be more careful. I mean, you can still do it, but this is more about repairing relationship, this particular formula. Does that answer your question? Okay. Yeah. Yes. That's a good point. I think you could ask. I would suggest first trying and maybe check it out with them. Is that enough? Does that go far enough for you?

[58:38]

What else do you need from me? Because maybe they're going to say something more. But before you make the offer, be willing to do it. Whatever they tell you, you know. Thanks. That was a really good point. Yeah. Yes. I also kind of hurt tonight with the MNs portion because... The thing I was apologizing for was acting impulsively out of the anchor. And the thing that I said to follow the formula was like, I'll take three deep breaths and I start feeling escalated or something. But I think that sometimes this is really deep personal work. So I would be like, Sometimes I don't know when I'm getting escalated, right? So, like, you know, I'll continue my meditation practice. I'll just take a therapist every week. I mean, what? Like, how do you?

[59:40]

You know, sometimes it's sort of... Yeah. That's a really great lead-in for how I would like to close today. You know, Zen practice, we focus a lot on emptiness practices. We focus a lot on meditation. We do this together. And Zen gives us these great tools for facing our fears and for facing our anger and for facing whatever's coming up. And we have to combine them. We have to combine that with just practical stuff for how to be in the world. And so that's exactly the balance that you're looking for. I see you looking to your practice to help you. And, you know, you might find other ways of working with anger. But you've made this flag there that this is something I want to work on. And that's enough. Because, again, you're not going to be perfect.

[60:42]

You're just going to keep working on it. Does that make sense? I mean, I think... I'll come just a second. I think I... especially practicing in Japan where we don't work with emotions there. Emotions don't come off as much. Emotions are a sign of immaturity, I was told. When I came back to the States, I realized I needed a little extra training in how to work with difficult emotions. And I found those resources in other places as well. So we can get support in working with this. You know, you could talk to your practice leader. There's so many different ways, but I think it really helps just to know that, yeah, I want to work on it. Does that help? Yeah. Okay, so one more comment, and then we'll... Yeah, I guess the awareness practice, one thing that I've gotten a lot out of this practice is being aware of what we said.

[61:44]

You know, the same thing, but the situation is... On first glance, this would not necessarily harm someone, but when I reflected in thinking deeper, you could hear an awareness, you know, this can hurt their feelings, I see. And now it's like, you know, I don't know about anybody else, it's like, it's just weird work situations. There's all these conditions of this kind of brush and things like they are not resolving the problem. Yeah. So I feel like there's a certain amount of real kind of like heat conditioning I need to get there in terms of just the awareness of like the south light. Right. This can cause harm.

[62:46]

Mm-hmm. Or, you know, Yeah, exactly. I mean, we have our guidebooks, right? We have all the teachings. We have the teachings from the Buddha. We have all the commentaries. We have the sutras. We have our guides. And just like Chimyo was saying yesterday, chop wood and carry water is not a concept. they don't start to, all these things that we learn don't start to become real until we actually do it. You know, and we get the splinters in our hands and the dirt under our fingernails. And that's where the real practice is. So, thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive.

[63:48]

Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

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