This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. Good morning. Welcome back to Abbott. Thank you. Thank everyone for taking care of Tassajara the last few days.

[01:00]

I was planning to be back yesterday, but then I was given the job of organizing the mountain seat ceremony for our new City Center Abiding Abyss. Christina Lenhair, who will take that step up on the mountain February the 12th. And we're kind of late, so I spent yesterday afternoon meeting with people about getting some invitations out and who's going to be invited and city center people, director and Tonto and Nino and everyone engaged. amazing. A lot of things need to be prepared and we have a few weeks to do it. So anyway, I apologize for not coming back when I said I would.

[02:08]

So this time we're looking at Hungren or Daimon Konin which is I usually think of him as the fifth Chinese ancestor. And I wrote down the pages. In the Cook translation, that's page 148. And in the Niermann, that's 165. And the Clery 135 for people who want to follow along. And that's all I want to say. Looks like it's my turn this time. Okay, Naiman, Nirman. I know a Naiman and a Niman, and this is Nirman. I get a little confused of that.

[03:15]

When Konian encountered Doshin, on the road to Obai, Doshian asked him, what is your clan name? Usually it's just, what is your name? But here he says, what is your clan name? And I understand that because in China, everybody belongs to some family, which we call a clan. And then they each have names. But their last name is always the name of the clan. So, like, Quang, you know, it's a huge... So Conan replied, he said, I'll go back. When Conan encountered Doshin, Dahi Doshin was, of course, the fourth patriarch. So when Conan encountered Doshin, the fourth patriarch, on the road to Obai, Doshin asked him,

[04:22]

What is your clan name? And Konin said, I have a nature, but I do not have a conventional clan name. In other words, I have a nature, but I don't have a name. Doshin asked, And what is it? Konin replied, It is the Buddha nature. Doshin queried, So you have no clan name. And Konin answered, Because original nature is empty, I do not. And Doshin fell silent, realizing that Conan was a vessel for the teaching and that it was to him that he would transmit the teaching and the Kesa. Well, this is rather sudden. Love at first sight. But we have to be careful. We don't usually do it that way. That's how it goes in these books, in these stories.

[05:24]

So name and nature are the important key words here. I have a name. It's a play on words. What is your name? And Conan said, I have a nature, but I do not have a name. The play on words is that name and nature have the same character. So Cook explains, I think, the name, the clan name. I can't remember what it is. Shing. Shing, yeah. So Shing means both name and nature. So that's the... is the key to what's going on here.

[06:26]

I have a nature or a name. My name is Buddha Nature, but it's not a real name. It's not a name that somebody gave me. It's my real name. My real name is Buddha Nature. That's what the story is all about. My real name is Buddha Nature. And I'm called Konia. So then, here are the circumstances. Conan, Chinese, meaning he of magnificent endurance, was a man of Obai in the provincial district of Qishu, Chinese. Qijiao. In a former life, he had been an itinerant forester who planted pine trees on Split Head Mountain.

[07:31]

During that time, he had once asked Doshin to explain to him how he could realize enlightenment in accord with the teaching. And Doshin had answered, you are already quite old. Even were you to hear it, how could you propagate it in order to convert others? You're too old for me to do this for you. It would be a waste of time. However, if you would return in another lifetime, I would still be waiting for you. The forester departed. As he came to the edge of a river, he saw a lone young woman washing clothes. And reading her, he asked her if he could lodge with her for the night. Well, there are different ways of expressing that. One way of expressing that, could I borrow your womb?

[08:33]

I think that's a better translation. It may not be as accurate, but it's a better meaning because womb here is a very important word. And I'll explain that. Womb is a very important word here. So the woman replied that she had a father and an elder brother whom she would ask. I'm going to go home and ask my mommy. And he replied that if it was all right with her, he would go with her. So the young woman agreed and afterwards returned to her task. Now, the young woman was the very plumb of her entire clan. When she suddenly discovered upon her return home that she was pregnant, her parents in rancor drove her out of the house. And since the woman had no home to return to, she hired herself out as a spinner in the village and during the day and spent her nights inside the public tavern.

[09:36]

Ultimately, she gave birth to a son, but because having him seemed misfortunate to her, she cast him into a muddy stream. He was not carried away by the current but stayed afloat whilst his body remained dry. For seven days divine beings protected him from harm and in the day these divine beings were two birds whose wings stretched out to cover the child and at night there were two dogs who crouched down beside him as guardians. That's very nice. When his mother saw that his vitality and body were luminous and his six faculties had remained completely undinned. She thought, how wondrous this is. And so she picked him up and nurtured him. So this is just like Moses. It's very interesting. I'm sure that he had no idea who Moses was. Or the Chinese. Maybe he did. Who knows? It's very much like Moses.

[10:40]

So I just want to go back a little bit. and talk about what this classical is about rebirth. It's about transformation and rebirth. He's too old, right? And so his teacher says, well, you must have a rebirth and then come back and see me. In other words, you need to have an enlightenment experience. You need to, in other words, in order to, if you have, when you have realization, that means that you've been reborn. When you become ordained, that's called being reborn.

[11:45]

entering another life. You leave your old life behind and you enter into another life. And I remember, I think it was Joshu Sasaki was saying, my birthday was the day that I was ordained. That's when I count my birthday from the day I was ordained, even though he's 105. There are two birthdays. One is that you're... birth of your body and brain, mind, and then there's the rebirth of your spiritual life or your true life. So... So in order to... be a vessel for the Dharma, Conan had to go through this rebirth process.

[12:53]

So rebirth process is when you enter your new life as a baby and then you grow up again and you become younger and younger When you're first born, you become older and older, and then when you have this transformation, you become younger and younger, and you become childlike. Not childish, hopefully, but childlike. So... How are you doing with that? Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah. So hopefully you don't get childish. So what is the womb?

[14:05]

What is the matrix that allows this to happen? It's the womb. So this is a nice lady, you know. She's maybe Kuan Yin, you know, Avalokiteshvara. And she's very conveniently helping. But there's something called the Tathagata Garba, which is the womb of the Tathagata. In the esoteric schools, there are the two mandalas, the diamond mandala and the garba or womb mandala. The womb mandala is the feminine and the diamond mandala is the masculine. And the abhyam is the koitas of those two. And each one of us has this womb.

[15:11]

You don't have to be a woman to have it. Everybody has the womb of the Tathagata, that's our inner, that's our natural endowment. And that is where our Buddha is formed. Because we're already, you know, there are many ways of thinking about this. This is my way of thinking about it. But this is where the matrix, where our Buddha is formed, through practice, or however. So... And then we're reborn through our own womb. So each one of us is a cooking pot for our own rebirth. I want to read you a little bit about that. From the Lankavatara Sutra.

[16:13]

short little paragraph D.T. Suzuki is talking about this and he says the inner perception or realization is made possible by the presence of the Tathagata Garba within the heart of every sentient being the Garba which literally means womb or something interiorly hidden is the seed of Tathagata-hood from which a fully enlightened being grows up. This, however, is generally found covered up with defiled wrappings of false judgment and irrational attachment. False judgment comes from not perceiving things as they are, that is, is not subject to the principle of individuation which is imposed by the mind upon things considered external, as to the irrational attachment which... causes us all kinds of vexation, it is the inevitable result of false judgment.

[17:18]

The garba, therefore, originally pure and immaculate, must be restored to its natural state, free from attachments. It is thus generally likened to a priceless gem concealed under a soiled garment. The Lotus Sutra talks about this a lot. Take the garment off and the shining stone will begin to shed its natural light over things as they are. The illumination thus obtained is a state of self-realization, and one can then see the garba as if held in one's own hand, even as plainly as the amalaka fruit. I don't know what that is, but you can probably guess. As the garba, thus cleansed of its defilement, is beyond the speculation of the philosophers and the attainment of the Indianists. The author of the Dasha Blumika, as well as the Langavatar, calls it avikalpa, or nirakalpa jhana, meaning knowledge of non-judgment or discrimination, kind of direct perception, or again, knowledge of thusness or suchness, which means an innocent way of looking at things.

[18:26]

The original innocence. We can never go back to being a child, but we can go forward to being childlike. So if you have any questions as I go, you can ask them. So I'm going to continue. Page 167 of my book. So when he grew large enough, he took to begging along with his mother. People called him the lad with no clan name. But one astute person remarked facetiously, Cook says, one wise man. Since this child lacks seven of the most fortunate marks, he does not quite match a Tathagata who has all the 32. I don't know why he's saying that. I don't know what relevance that has here. But, you know, the 32 marks of the Buddha, which are totally irrational.

[19:33]

Later on, the boy and his mother encountered Doshin, who was the fourth patriarch, right? Later on, the boy and his mother encountered Doshin. There he is, traveling on the road to Obai Mountain. Here we are again, beating up seven years later, or eight. Seeing that the child's features were strikingly handsome and not like those of conventional children, Doshin asked him what his name was, and the dialogue given above ensued, to the point where Doshin remained silent, realizing Conan's capacity for training. As a result, he asked the mother's permission for Conan to leave home and serve as his jisha. At that time, Conan was in his seventh year, seven years old. From the time that he crossed to the other shore so that he might receive the kesa, now crossing to the other shore, you know, in the heart scripture, gate, gate, paragate, parasam gate, crossing to the other shore, right after that means.

[20:42]

Gone, gone, to the other shore. So that's a kind of being reborn, in a sense. I think that carries the meaning. Shazuki Roshi said, when you know how to live in reality on this shore, you are already on the other shore. There's no other place to go. It's just a way of speaking. So from the time that he crossed to the other shore so that he might receive the Kesa and left home to become a monk so that the Dharma could be transmitted to him, there was not a single day or night when he lay down, even for an hour or so, during the whole 24 hours. He was wont to sit in this manner, although he never putting a limit on his other duties. In other words, even though he sat all the time, he still did everything else. We're working the kitchen. You know, swept the grounds. Finally, in the year 675 CE, he remarked to his disciples, my work has come to an end, therefore I must take my leave.

[21:55]

So saying, he passed away while sitting. This is the kind of preferred way to pass away, but not everybody can do that. Okay. You know, the city of 10,000 Buddhas, Master Hua, who I knew as Tolan, I used to go, in 1964, he had a house around the corner from Sokoji on Sutter Street a block away. And we used to go and visit him. But when he moved to a city of 10,000 Buddhas, a lot of his disciples sat up all night and they were laid down. They had little boxes that looked like steam boxes. And they just laid and they had chin rests.

[22:55]

I have a chin rest that I was given. I've never used it. When I go to bed... When I go to sleep, I lay down. Not always, though. So here is Tesho. There is a name that is not received from one's father and mother. He says from one's father or from the ancestors. One not passed on from the Buddha or from the ancestors. We call it the Buddha nature. Nobody can give you this name. you already have it this is your true name the purpose of training in meditation and practicing the way is basically to realize this now that's a double meaning too to realize that this is so but to realize this this is the final word of dharma it is for the sake of making your original nature still and bright

[24:04]

If you have not found the source, you will live in vain and die in vain, bewildered by yourself and bewildered by others. As to what is called original nature, each and every one of us is born and dies over and over again. Yet even though face and form may differ, never at any moment do any of us not possess this clear and distinct wisdom which we call prajna. Now this is also... kind of, what does that mean? We're all born over and over again. Is this what you believe or is this what you don't believe? This is always a question for people, right? What does that mean? Born over and over again. There are two words. One is called reincarnation and the other is called rebirth. And rebirth is not reincarnation. Moment by moment, we're being reborn.

[25:10]

Moment by moment, everything in the universe is being reborn. Born and die, born and die, born and die. But there's really no real being born and dying. But there is this transformation. Infinite transformations. But yet there's something that isn't transformed. which is your nature. So he says, as to what is called original nature, each and every one of us is born and dies over and over again, yet, even though face and form may differ, the face and the form does not reappear again. Never at any moment do any of us not possess this clear and distinct wisdom. The truth of this can be realized from what happened in the present story.

[26:11]

Long ago, a forester sought the Dharma path, but up to the point where, as a child of seven, the Kesa and the teaching were transmitted, understanding of necessity had not changed because of rebirth. Your true nature never changes just because your form does. So meditation master Wonshi, Wonshi Shogaku, you know, cultivating the empty field, yes, that's about Master Hung Chir, wrote in an inscription on a portrait of great master Konian, before and after two bodies, past and present, one nature. So even though the two bodies have been supplied, you must understand that the past and the present do not have different natures. That's why we can talk about everything as just now.

[27:15]

Even though two bodies have been supplied, you must understand that the past and present do not have different natures. It has been this way for immeasurable kalpas. So if you would find the body of this original nature from the outset to not try to categorize that nature to accord with social distractions, distinctions. So our social distinctions are discontinuous in time. And our nature is continuous in time. So continuous nature is simply thus, or now. Whereas discontinuous conditions are yesterday, today, and tomorrow, and what's next. But the two are totally one.

[28:22]

But this is where it gets difficult. So... Because the four social classes, I think the four social classes, maybe it refers to the Indian classes of priests, merchants, warriors, and the lower class, the untouchable in India. The same nature, and the original nature is like this. When those of any of the four classes leave home and become monks, they are referred to alike as belonging to the shakya clan in order to make them aware of this absence of disparateness. In other words, everyone is equal in the Buddha-Dharma ocean. Everyone is equal in the ocean of Buddha-Dharma.

[29:25]

I am truly not a separate being, nor are you. We merely take on the faces of self and others. just as do past and present bodies. If you cannot discern things in this manner and clarify your understanding, you will, in your confusion, pretend that what is before your very eyes exists and make a distinction between your own body and those of others. We do have to make those distinctions. Our whole culture is based on those distinctions. As a result, you will have emotional attachments to all sorts of things and be infatuated with or confused by the times in which you live. But once you can realize this state, even though you were to change your form and alter yourself, how could that possibly disturb the true self or alter it? So it is the definitive word.

[30:28]

But everything, it doesn't refer to anything in particular. But you can refer to anything as it. That's the oneness of continuous and discontinuous. You can refer to anything in the world as it. But it has no special characteristics. Everything is it. And it is everything. You know, when I think, I had this thought about Tassajara, the womb of Tassajara is called Tangaryo. The old person enters the womb of Tangaryo and for seven days becomes purified and then enters the Buddhacy of Tassajara.

[31:29]

as a new person, hopefully. So you can realize this through the account of the forester and the boy. Since the boy was born without having a legal father, you must understand that people do not necessarily receive the name of both their parents when they are born. So even though you have emotional attachments to what you see as a physical body, hair and flesh, received from your parents, still you should understand that the body of which I speak is not the five skandhas. That's not the body that he's talking about, the one that we usually think of our body and mind. When you have understood that this body is like this, then there will be nothing at all that accompanies an I, no self, nor has there been anything different from yourself. So there's nothing that accompanies yourself and there's nothing different from yourself, even for an instant.

[32:40]

That is why someone of old said, no sentient being from kalpas immeasurable has ever emerged from meditation on the Dharma nature, In other words, we're always immersed in the Dharma nature. You can't try to find Buddha nature. You don't seek Buddha nature just because that's what you are. So practice is how to be ourself. That's what it means to be yourself. It doesn't mean to be your... When we say you should just be yourself, it means you should be... allow Buddha nature to be expressed because that's what your self is. And we allow Buddha nature to express itself through our five skandhas. So when you obtain a physical body and practice in this way,

[33:45]

you will quickly succeed in coming face-to-face with Dai Mongonian. There will be no distinction between people of different nationalities or differences between past and present times. Now, how can I make a vital comment that will correspond to this principle? The moon is so resplendent, the water so pure, the autumn sky so clear, how could there even be a wisp of cloud to be speck- the great immaculacy. You can't defile your nature. Fortunately, we'd have holy wars. say something I forgot.

[35:02]

Would you like to say anything? Even though this is so pretty difficult. It says I'm truly not a separate being nor are you. We merely take on the faces of self and other. I thought quite an understatement. We merely take on these faces of self and other. But since we, maybe we merely take them on, but we believe it so intensely that it's pretty difficult to not be really completely over, I'd say, run by the belief in self and other.

[36:06]

So, it's not easy even here at Tassahara, right, where Dogen says people training together should be like milk and water, that there's no separation, that milk and water just blend together seamlessly, and we all blend together seamlessly here, right? And then sometimes we think, well, maybe it's not so easy. Kind of like a puzzle. When you look at a puzzle, there are all these pieces. And when the puzzle is all totally together, it's all one piece. And then you see the scenes. You see the outlines of all the pieces. But they're seamlessly fitting together. That's ideal. Yeah. Well, but that's helpful to be able to have that image, I think, so that you tend to see pieces or to actually think that you're just a piece.

[37:15]

You might have trouble fitting what the next piece, or maybe if... Then stepping back, looking at the whole, taking a backward step, you say, oh, actually everything is already... perfectly fitting together. Fitting together can include conflict or difference or the feeling of not putting together, yes? That's how we fit together. We fit together with the feeling of not fitting together. Sometimes. It's actually an expression of the puzzle. fitting together with all the outlines. It's about as harmonious as you can get, even with all the stuff going on. Dogen talks about this case, and I'm sure that this is where Keza got his interpretation.

[38:33]

from Dogen, in a classical called Bhusho, Buddha Nature. Dogen talks about this. And it's really, Dogen is talking about this on a level that goes way past your logic to get it. But if you read it over and over, you get it. I'm just going to read you a little bit of it. The same story.

[39:34]

occurred between Conan and Daikon Eno, the sixth ancestor. It's repeated in the story of when the sixth ancestor, when Daikon Eno comes to the fifth ancestor, and the fifth ancestor says, well, what do you want? And he says, I want to become a Buddha. And Conan says, well, people from the South have no Buddha nature. And Dogen takes this up. The most important thing to understand is no Buddha nature. We would say, oh, no Buddha nature? But don't the people of the South have Buddha nature? We know that. He goes, no Buddha nature.

[40:36]

That's the way Dogen interprets it. So no Buddha nature is the koan. Just like, does the dog have the Buddha nature? Joshi says, no. And then he's asked again, does the dog have Buddha nature? He said, of course. So which is it? Yes or no? No Buddha nature. So the Fifth Patriarch, Zen Master Daman, asked this question. Dogen goes on and on talking about that. The fifth patriarch, Zen Master Daman, and so forth, there's the story.

[41:55]

So the patriarch asked him, what is your name? And the boy replied, I have a name, but it is not an ordinary name. What name is that? asked the patriarch. It's Buddha Nature, said the boy. You have no Buddha Nature, said the patriarch. You say no Buddha Nature because Buddha Nature is emptiness, the boy replied. That's not in the usual story, but... That's Dogen's interpretation of the story. So when the fourth patriarch said, what name is that? That is an affirmation. He is Watim, an affirmation. The fifth patriarch said, I have a name, nature, but it is not an ordinary name. In other words, a name, nature, that is self-identical with being is not an ordinary name, nature.

[43:00]

For an ordinary name, nature, is not self-identical with being. When the fourth patriarch said, what is that? What is an affirmation? He is what-ing an affirmation. What is his name? That's not a question. His name is Wat. Watting is possible because it is affirmation. His affirmation is possible by virtue of Wat. His name or nature is both it, which is an affirmation, and Wat. It is infused in herbal tea. It is infused in your ordinary tea. It is your daily rice as well. We're not talking about something, you know, abstract. talking about every moment, every activity of your life, moment by moment. You're like, what? Sometimes we give people a koan. What? What is it?

[44:01]

What? What? You can reduce it just what? What? What? The answer to what is it? Yes. Yes. What? You can use either side. what, what, what, or this, this, this. What is it? This is it. You can take this sentence and turn the words around any way you want. What is it? What is it is a question. What is it is a statement. It is what? What it is. It is what it is. This is down to the simplicity of his end. It's 10 o'clock.

[45:02]

There's a hand up over here. Oh, yeah. That was my. That was your thing. Yeah. Maybe. No way. It's stained. But it's not damaged. But actually, it's not even stained. It's always totally pure. That's why there's always hope. Not hope. That's the wrong word. Reality cannot be damaged. Otherwise, what can we have faith in? We have faith in that which cannot be damaged. It cannot be defiled. And when we go there, then we can stand on our feet.

[46:06]

That's where we stand. Well, where is that place? That's our practice. Where is that place where we can't be damaged, where nothing can be affected? Nothing can affect that place. That's why we should sazan. That's what sazan is about. It's about settling on that place that can't be defiled or disturbed. I think River Judith says, I often think, and I've said it, you know, Western culture. We grew up in a Judeo-Christian tradition. Whether we're part of it or not, it's just sort of is like background noise. That's right. Exactly. Original sin. Oh, yeah. You're flawed.

[47:07]

You need redemption. And also therapeutic approaches, you know. There's something wrong that needs fixing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, you said a whole bunch of things there. You should toss together in a bag. Yeah. But not all of us experienced all of those things in that way. But it's a background noise. It is a background noise in the culture. So original sin is not part of Judaism, as far as I know. That never bothered me. What bothered me was people thought that there was such a thing as original sin. How can you think such a thing? This little baby is born. How can you think of that little baby boy? Baby is having original sin. It's original purity. That's why we all love little babies, and women especially, wow, look at that baby. It's like original purity.

[48:10]

But yes, we have the background noise. When you say God and you say Buddha, it has two different connotations. God has the feeling, whereas Buddha has the feeling. For Westerners, because it's not part of our culture to think of emotionally as Buddha, but we think emotionally as God. Not everybody, of course, but in the East, they do think emotionally. Many people... Buddha is very emotionally. And when we see practitioners, especially nuns, who are so devotional, it's very touching. Because they have that really emotional feeling. I think another part of the background noise in our culture is just corporate consumerist culture that creates a sense of lack.

[49:17]

We need something. We always need something. You need this deodorant so you can get love, you know? I mean, it's subtle and it's completely pervasive that we're not enough. I mean, if they put out the message that we were enough as we are, you know, our society would come to a halt. Yeah, collapse. That's a big problem because our culture is so based on seduction. seduction of goods of all kinds. And when we stop doing that, it falls apart because we're not supporting each other. Hi. I'm kind of confused by part of the story about the woman. Yes. And if the woman represents this Buddha womb or womb in which the Buddha is grown, but in The story, the way it's like poetically presented, she becomes, because of this, she becomes destitute and hated by her family and penniless.

[50:26]

And it's like, and then she, he becomes a monk and she's kind of forgotten. And I'm not sure why she's just sort of forgotten about in the story. Well, she plays her part. And then she, you know, that's all she needs to do is play her part. We don't know what happened to her after that. But, you know, this is a little play. It's a little drama. And these are the characters, and each one of them comes in at a certain time, and they have their roles. And it's a little play. And then the characters... What are the characters of the two birds and the two dogs? Well, there's something nice about that. It's like being protected by nature. Being protected by the creatures of nature. So there's some tribulation going on. Because she did this wonderful deed, she's being punished for it. And so in a sense, doesn't that happen to everybody?

[51:27]

When you want to leave home and your parents say, no, no, you should go to college. And you get punished for doing what you want to do. on what you need to do. It doesn't happen to everybody, but it's very characteristic. If you really want to do something in this way, you get punished in some way. You don't have to get punished, but you understand what I mean. you did that she was like a bodhisattva who appeared when there was a need and took care of what needed to be taken care of and when he was alone. Yeah, then what... Well, not everything matches up.

[52:43]

But Cook says that she's the plum of the family, right? And so plum is baika, which means plum blossom. Dogen uses plum blossom or baika as meaning enlightenment. So when the plum blossoms open, that means that's a realization or enlightenment, right? So... There's something there that, you know, you can add to the story, right? Yeah, somebody's hand, but I don't see the face. Oh, hi. So I, you know, in talking a little bit further about how to think about this woman, to me, it seemed like it did very well with the comments about Buddha nature not getting into social structures, you know, We're talking about the Chinese family.

[53:47]

That's right. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. You know, she had to come to terms with that. Eventually she did come to terms with that. Right. Well, that's right. That's a great drama of her. You know, it's following her nature instead of following the culture. and being a renegade, in a sense, and following her nature, and then having this, like, remorse, you know, or confusion, and then putting the baby in the stream, you know, like inner confusion, and then coming back and realizing, and taking it up again. Right. They're symmetrical. There's two birds. That's right. Two birds and two dogs. And it's like heaven.

[54:48]

The birds come from the sky and dogs are ancient, ancient friends of man's being able in the world. Well, that's right. This is like Rome. Yeah. Romulus and Remus. One wolf and two and kids. The ancient friends of the man. Yeah, that's right. Some people. Right. Yeah. Keith? So we were talking about, you were talking about, as getting younger, trying to kind of, like, enliven childlike nature as a distinguished child nature. And Elizabeth Hamilton is a teacher in Japan, and she often says something to this back, you know, I'm wondering how you would deal with this.

[56:00]

She says, growing up is a prerequisite for waking up, and that we should grow up. So how do we move up and also reimagine this childlike thing? Well, growing up is not a prerequisite. Growing up is being that. So would this be getting older? Well, there's getting older and getting younger at the same time. grow up and become more childlike. When we let our Buddha nature do the directing, when we give ourselves totally over to our true nature, you don't have to worry about it. You don't have to cultivate. You just let it happen. Yeah?

[57:07]

Would Buddha nature be the same as No. Yeah, of course. When Buddha nature is the self, which it is, so when, you know, we say the true self is the whole universe. That's your true body, is the whole universe, is your true body. And if you stop and think about that for about five minutes, you can see that's true. Because everything that we are is dependent on everything else. So what is our self? What is yourself? Yourself is totally dependent on everything. There's breathing, which you have nothing to do with. There's the blood running through your veins. There's all the organic stuff that's going on inside. You have nothing to do with it. What is this you?

[58:08]

And yet at the same time, you feel like me. I mean, you feel like you. I feel like you. So these are the two sides that are really one side. They're not two sides. They're just one side. So if we only think that I am me and you are you, then that's delusion. But at the same time, you are you and I am me. But at the same time, it's like... This is the one, and this is many. We're both included in this. Five people are included in this, but when it's opened up, there are five individuals. But when you close your fist, they're one. This is the source. So this is why he's saying, this is Buddha nature. or different faces pop up, but the different faces only have one nature.

[59:18]

Also, I wonder if you had anything to say about the importance of the name here. Yes, name. I think that's... I find that really interesting. Like, for example, if you are when or if you're reborn, which you may or may not be punished for. In our tradition, you get a name. Yes, you get a name. So your teacher gives you a name. Oh, I remember what I was going to say. I'll talk about it before I forget this. In the Dharma transmission ceremony, there is one part where the deshi, who is the ordinee, and the hanshi, who is the teacher, the deshi walks seven steps on their knees to the teacher, which means

[60:35]

that's called the infant crawl. Infant crawl. So when I give someone dharma transmission, I never say, this person is now this great teacher, blah, blah, blah. This is the beginning of their practice. Dharma transmission literally means you become a full priest. You graduated to this step where you are a priest and you can do many things. But basically it means you're starting all over again. Every graduation in our lineage is starting over again. So when you have lay ordination, that's starting all over again. When you have priest ordination, that's another stage of starting all over again as a just starting all over.

[61:36]

When you have dharma transmission, that's another stage of starting all over again. So you don't get a big head out of any of this stuff. Each step means, each step, instead of getting higher, is getting lower. So that way you always remain grounded. So it looks like this hierarchical thing, but we have to be very careful. There are Buddhist, you know, historically in Buddhism, you know, the monks are above the lay people and all this, but not in our tradition. Not in Suzuki Roshi's. When I say our tradition, I mean Suzuki Roshi's tradition because I think he understood the 20th and 21st centuries and how we should relate to each other without hierarchical problems.

[62:44]

But I've always followed that. When you become a priest, you become a servant of the sangha. You're not up on a pedestal somewhere. And when you have dormant transmission, you're even further down. So we keep lowering ourselves so that we can contain everything. The higher you are, the less you can contain. But the lower you are, the low note. You can... Even in city center, priests get to stand in the front row. And let's not forget past conduct of certain priests of this order, of this lineage. That's what we're aiming for, but it's not always so. It's what we aim for, but it's not always so. I agree with you. Yeah. And that doesn't mean, I have to say this, equality is horizontal and every one of us is totally equal.

[63:51]

But the vertical means that everyone has their place in the schema of things. And if you don't create a conscious hierarchy, then the subconscious hierarchy will take over. So yes, we have hierarchy, but it's conscious. And so we can work with it. But if you don't have hierarchy, hierarchy just is. The bullies will win. Yeah, even when it's conscious, that's right. So we always have to be aware. Yeah. Why don't the priest stand in the back? Why don't the priest stand in the back? Oh, he said Zagra problems. Zagra problems.

[64:54]

get to stand in the front row. They have to stand in the front row. They're hiding over there. Right. So at the same time that you become lower, at the same time you become higher, you also have to become lower to keep the balance. So if you just, you know, the priest is a prominent person. And so everybody watches the priest. What do they do? And so they're everybody's projections, you know, come out on the prominent person. And so you take that risk of being the prominent person. And then if you do something wrong, you know. So you have to be visible. You have to be visible. So coming in the door here today, I'm... I paused and gestured for Sojin to go first.

[66:01]

Because he's my senior, right? And he said, no, you go first. Because he's the abbot. I used to be the abbot. But I don't anymore. But each of us is willing to not be first. Actually would rather... maybe rather not be first, but not to make too big a deal out of it, but then also being willing to go first when that's necessary or when that's called for. So that's... The last to be first, yeah. But it is like that, I think. At the... Where everyone is a priest, I was at the ASZB conference and we all do an opening ceremony. And then everyone is saying, please. It's all a bunch of, all of us who have been not only ordained in this tradition, but are registered in Japan and so forth.

[67:09]

And there's all this, there's seniority involved, but everyone's saying, please, you go in the front row, and you go in the front row. And so then, yeah, we have to kind of... Well, that's why... sometimes have to give up and say, okay, I'll go in the front row. That's why in the old days, from the beginning of Buddhism, to avoid that, people were seated according to when they were ordained. And it just solved, you know, no need to think about it. You ordain five minutes before him, you're first. That's the... but we don't do it that way we do it according to here according to your positions I remember at one time we tried serving the abbot last at meals which I think is pretty good and I would get served last and my meal would be much warmer laughter

[68:18]

But that was not the reason. But it was too confusing for the servers. They really got confused with that. I don't know why, but they did. So we changed it. But I didn't have any problem with that. But there's another problem in that the teachers... traditionally in every endeavor have the respect of teachers as being teachers. So we respect the teachers as teachers. I remember we had an Iranian student at Page Street, Bijan. That's a whole other story. Anyway, he said, when in Iran, when it Your teacher, no matter if it's your high school teacher or whatever, comes into a restaurant and you're sitting there.

[69:20]

You go over and you buy them their meal, you know. And, you know, you treat them with such respect that, like, you know, and he said, it's so different here, you know, the way we treat our teachers. I caught a Gary Roshi. He said, you people do not know how to treat a teacher. And... I think we should treat people with the respect that you feel. I don't think it can be legislated. But at the same time, there is an order of things. And so we have to respect the order of things. So we serve the teacher first. We open the door for them first. Things like that. have that kind of orderliness and respect. Otherwise, if that doesn't happen pretty soon, it's just our buddy, you know.

[70:21]

And so then, well, what about the name, you know? So it says Roshi or Joe or, you know. But there are different times. There are times when you would use both the formal or the informal. There are times when you just use the formal, like in an assembly or, you know, and then there are times when you use informal. If you were actually a friend, you say, hey, Joe, you know. But you have to know when that is. You have to feel when to use the formal name and when to use the informal name. So I have students sometimes who never use my formal name. And they always address me as, address the assembly, well, you know, Mel said this and that. And somebody says, no, no, don't call him. Oh, yeah, that's right. But still, there's a formal way of addressing people, an informal way.

[71:28]

And it makes, it just creates an order. It doesn't mean that one person's better than another because we're all the same. So we always have to realize that we're always the same. And then we have to realize that we're all in a different place. We all have an order of hierarchy, just like a flower. In botany, which I know nothing about, there's the stem and the calyx and the leaves and the buds. And that's called the hierarchy. It's not that one part is more important than the other. It's just that every part has its part. Every piece has its part to play. And without all those parts, the flower doesn't exist. You can be an anarchist, but I know you're not.

[72:29]

The language you're using is very reminiscent of the language used by Japanese teachers. There are some excellent critiques of how this whole thing, this whole hierarchical thing, has been misused and corrupted in the Japanese system, particularly with the war with Russia, the war with China. I mean, it's such a big issue, and there's so much danger around it. It really went wrong in Japan. It really went wrong. People died because it went wrong. Young priests became like soldiers in Kamakad because of this very system of, oh, there has to be a hierarchy. Everyone has a place and a job. Well, that's right. That's why, although we have hierarchy, it should not become... When we have that kind of system, it's possible to organize it as a bomb. But that's the danger of any system.

[73:42]

It's not that this system is wrong. It's that the people who run the system are... Because we talk about which is the best, democracy or oligarchy or blah, blah, blah. None of them are bad or good. It's just the people... who use them are bad or good. And so democracy is great, right? But look what's happening to our democracy. It's just become a shell which gives lip service to democracy. And we've become the aggressors of the world, really, under the guise of democracy. People in Afghanistan think democracy is, is taking what's not yours. That's what they think. And when it's explained to them, they say, really?

[74:44]

They have no idea what it really is. And neither do we. We forgot. But what did you want to say? I was just saying amen. He did these surveys. Steve gave us all these surveys to fill out. And one of the questions was, I can't remember how the question was worded. But it was something like, the way we rotate through positions in Zen Center, pretty fast and furiously sometimes, is that a good idea or not? Do you feel supported or not? I responded that I rather did. I went from being Shuso to being Anja. It's kind of great. You just don't know. It helps us become flexible.

[75:45]

So you're talking about choice. Sometimes there's an element of choice in it. What we used to do was at the beginning of practice period after Tangaryu, we would tell everybody what their positions were. And nobody knew. We just said, this is your position. That's why, yeah. So we announced. Yeah, that's what I said. It's come back to that. But for a while, it was, what would you like to do? And that's not part of our practice, is what would you like to do? Not that, you know, it's nice to know what you'd like to do, but that's not how we base our choices. Because it's... good for you to have a position that you don't know anything about. You're not an expert. Like CFO. Except that it's inevitable that we use experts and get in the position. You can't help it. I think the Chinese idea is that inner virtue should

[76:56]

accord with our position. And when inner virtue accords with our position, then all is well. It's only when inner virtue and outer position are not. Not in accord. Anyway, it's a big subject. We kind of segue into other things, but that's okay. I just want to say one more thing is that there are people who have practiced for years and years and years and have put in lots and lots of effort to educate themselves and to help create keep Zen Center going and

[78:10]

and have matured through their practice over a long period of time, who should be honored for that, right? So please stand in the front. These are the people who have done all that, and we should honor them and respect that. So there is some difference between those people who have done all that and new people who haven't done that yet. But even so, we're all the same. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, Visit sfzc.org and click Giving.

[79:13]

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