Here we are, gathered again for another Dharma Chat. If I ever do a serious book on Dharma Chats by Abbot of Tassajara. Hmm, and this must be warmest rohatsu. It's not cold like the first one Philip and I did here. Remember how cold that was? It was about 14 or 18 or something. It's a little chilly in the morning, but, I mean, we have to pretend it's December. I think it's all for the princess' sake. She told me if it got too cold she'd have to leave and I've been sweating and working on the weather. I don't know if I can do it another practice period. It's been really taxing. I'm just hoping I can maintain it for another couple of weeks.

[01:20]

Well, you have three and a half days. Do it. If I get serious. Do live or die. Buddhism is very pessimistic. Not nihilistic, but very pessimistic. Completely pessimistic. Someone said to me, how to make sense of Chris's death, you know. Maybe from a Christian background, where there's a... what? A God which, in the end, is trying to do right by us. So, you have to try to explain Chris died for

[03:03]

Some reason God was ready to take Chris, and I remember many Christian stories about, we don't understand, but God decided to, maybe children's stories. But for us in Buddhism, there's no meaning. You can make up, sure, there's some reason. And now that Chris is gone, Not gone, you know, we can say, you feel it, but gone. There's, you can say, he's gone and such and such happened, so it makes sense, but really there's no meaning. Someone asked, Zhao Zhou, does a baby have the, is the baby born with the six senses?

[04:07]

And Jaojo said, tossing a ball in the rapids. That's all, tossing a ball in the rapids. Sometimes, now this is samsara. Buddhism doesn't say samsara is going to end, there's no government that's going to make it okay. Maybe we'd get all... You can't speculate, but if the world was Buddhist, maybe it would be completely Buddhist, maybe it would be quite different because no one would try to improve anything. I don't really think that, but it's possible. Certainly the idea of progress is not there. You can improve things, of course, and people will be motivated to build better buildings be honest and stuff like that. But the idea of progress won't be there. It's samsara. It's just going to be a mess. If you don't like it, change your religion. Go somewhere else. Do something else. It's just going to be a mess.

[05:33]

I said the other day, people are nice until they're crossed, didn't I say that? Almost everyone's nice until they're crossed, but almost everyone can be crossed and then watch out. And the more insignificant a person feels they are, the more dangerous it is to cross them. But, you know, we should thank our lucky stars that a large part of the time they're not crossed. We should thank the great, be grateful for their enormous benevolence when they're not crossed. So it's, you know,

[07:02]

not just negative. We can be thankful for all the times people are not crossed. There have been some stories in the newspaper by a young woman who was a member of the SLA. And she describes how Donald DeVries sank it, how he admired Manson and wanted Manson's power. And to brutalize the people who were with him, who started out you know, interested in improving the world and deeply disturbed by the way blacks were treated and so forth. To brutalize them he would call them in to their bed and he'd just slit a cat up the middle and make them do something with the blood.

[08:34]

or they would practice cutting, killing chickens in there. Tough. And more than one Zen student has told me, you know, I was close to being caught in that kind of scene myself. I was quite radical and quite political would have been easy to get into that. It's like the toad or frog in cold water or boiling water. You drop it in boiling water, it jumps out. Put it in cold water and heat it slowly, it gets cooked. I remember in first grade or so being told the glue was old horses. I remember being brutalized by that. I mean, actually I felt I used to eat it regularly because I thought it was better than gluing things. It tasted rather good. But we get brutalized quite early. We take things for granted. It's just the way it is that there are hamburgers and glue.

[10:03]

Anyway, so we have this new koan. Does a dog have a Buddha nature? How to cut off your reality, giving reality to your thoughts, but thoughts count. They can kill you. How to penetrate your life. What are rules? Again, I'm coming back to what are rules? What counts and what doesn't count? the same kids with the cookies. If you put the real cookies in front of them and tell them to think about a picture of the cookies, they can wait a long time. But if you put a picture of the cookies in front of them and tell them to think about the real cookies, they can't wait at all. They start ringing bells saying, where are my cookies? The thought of the cookies is more real to them than the picture in front of them.

[11:17]

And so we have practice periods. We're actually doing the opposite of what Donald DeFreeze was doing. We're trying to un-brutalize ourselves. It's scary to do so. Muhammad says, you know, you have to penetrate this muhkhan with, what, six hundred and forty bones and eighty-four thousand pores. Six hundred and forty bones and joints. It means your posture. Your six hundred – some of you need about six months of, what's that thing called?

[12:24]

all your bones and joints, so much history. But sit, sit, I mean, I hope these three and a half days have burned a little out of you, softened you up a little. Sit until you're really soft, extend that softness to everything. Hurting all over but soft. This is 640 bones and joints. And 84,000 pores is your breathing. So you're no longer on the surface of things where you can kill yourself on the surface of things. So move, no end, yes. You know fathers are not much good and I think they probably serve some purpose but somebody was doing research with fathers and mothers and trying to get fathers to participate and they counted something like in a month

[13:50]

the average, you know, in a week, the average father spoke to his child eighty-four seconds. And when they tried to get the father to do something with the kid, even, you know, like play a game with the kid, they kind of did it reluctantly. And they used control language, like they would explain the rules to the kid, or they would ask the kid to... The researcher was quite, obviously, he was a man, but he was obviously quite angry at the fathers. But the fathers would try to control by asking questions rather than participating with the child. And when they get the child to take on the role of the father and say, you be the father and I'll be... And then the investigator would ask the kid, read me a story. And then the little kid playing the father would say, mommy will. Just like a father.

[15:08]

Dogen was the first person in Japan, I think, to open the temples, Zen temples, to women to practice. And this was Zukyoshi's effort, too. He felt in this age we can't divide people up. And I feel, you know, very good about these last two practice periods, you know. All the doans are women in shiso. And I don't notice much difference between whether it's all men or women. But it's quite a bit of difference from, say, ten years ago. It was hard to get a woman to carry a stick And now women hit it equally well. Or many hit equally well with men who hit well. But I don't think that women used to say it was because they weren't strong enough or something like that. But I don't think that's the case. Obviously, it cannot be. It's not so... It doesn't take much strength to use the stick. It is... I think women have a

[16:39]

had a resistance to taking authority, and taking authority with men, too. But now it doesn't seem to be a problem. It's taken some years, though, ten years or more. And some women think about authority, talented women, think about authority, expect, want to have it and don't think they can, and then when they have it, it breaks them to have the years of idea about it can't get with the actuality of it. So it's a slow process, and we help each other to practice. How really to practice with everyone. So again, this MUHKON is how to get cut through those thoughts

[17:40]

So you possess your own thoughts. If a dog barks and you hear it, this is your own thought. If someone sounds the fire and we all decide to put it out, this is our own thought. But if you have some fear of it, or think about the fire in some way, or it should have happened, or shouldn't have happened, or was inevitable, this is all karma, not dharma. So this Mukon, again, is how to get rid of yes and no. Are you enlightened or are you not? Is it all samsara or nirvana? So it's just samsara. There's no hope. It's a mess. Human society is a mess. But there's nirvana. And Buddha on his enlightenment said

[18:49]

he felt he was enlightened with everything. So if he's enlightened with everything, it means everything has Buddha nature, or is Buddha nature. And Mumon, when he was enlightened, said he opened his eyes, or everyone opened their eyes with him. So how do we Everything is samsara, unrelieved samsara, and yet there's nirvana or enlightenment and everyone is enlightened with you. How do you resolve this? So this is this koan, Mu. I asked Sally, this is where I started about fathers, I asked Sally, feeling a remiss father, I asked Sally something about I hope I've taught you something, said something. And she said, right away, which surprised me, she said, you taught me the... I don't know exact wording, but she said, you taught me the flexibility of concepts, or not to be caught by concepts, or something

[20:25]

at something like that. And I said, how did I do that? And she said, by our yes and no games. And I forgot, you know. I mean, I didn't see that she drew such a complete conclusion from that. But we used to play when she was, I don't know, maybe five or six, anyway, when we first got to Japan, I think it was. No, it was in San Francisco, before we went. We started, so she was four, but we would take turns being yes or no. So she'd say yes and I'd say no. She'd say yes and I'd say no and I'd say yes. And we'd really get into it, I mean completely, you know, it's real mood, you know, with all your might and maim. And she'd say yes and I'd say, you little pipsqueak! I'd say, no! And she'd say, yes! I'd say, no!

[21:29]

Shout at me like that, back and forth. And then suddenly I'd switch, I'd say, yeah! And she'd say, no! No! And we'd get like that, we'd go on for 10 or 20 minutes. And then we'd switch. And our faces inflamed. And every now and then we'd do it, you know. And for her it was fun, you know, but for her it was quite important. So Mu, you know, seems we should talk about this now, Kamatame Shoyoroku. And it's such basic koan, and a kind of technique of Zen. And it's the most famous koan in the United States, probably, because of Yasutani Roshi.

[22:37]

Yasutani Roshi, as you know, some of you may not know much about Yasutani Roshi, but he was the most famous Zen teacher in the United States for many years. And the people who followed Sashins, you know, went from Sashin to Sashin, would follow him around, doing Sashins with him every time he came to the United States. And he was something of a renegade, marvelous man, you know, very skinny man. Very intense, skinny man. And he was Soto, but he didn't like Soto. And he didn't like Rinzai either, and he had his own way. So both Rinzai and Soto looked rather askance at him. And he taught in the West a lot, and he has some disciples in Japan who continue. Many people were influenced by him. Edo Roshi in New York practiced with him a long time, and Maezumi Roshi practiced with him, did sesshins with him, and Eiken Roshi did. But he, you know, criticism of Yasutani Roshi is he made Mu too much of a technique

[24:12]

And after Sashin there would be a kind of certification ceremony and you'd say, now so-and-so and so-and-so and so-and-so have Kencho and they get a little certificate and so forth. We haven't done that around here lately. But this Sashin I may give out certificates at the end. Whenever you're ready to be certified, I have a little rubber stamp, I'll put it on your wrist so you can get back in the zendo. It'll glow in the dark, you know. But if it's too much of a technique, you think you did it. Instead of seeing this as fundamental nature of our life and of our world, our samsaric world. Fundamental addressing of yourself to this what to do. So if it's put too much, if you concentrate and if you say moo and on each exhale and

[25:38]

you will surely get it in three and a half days. It's too much, too easily, too much like you did it and so many people got those certificates and yet I don't know what's happened to them. Our practice has to be more 84,000 pores, 64 million fragments of the day. You can't penetrate with yes and no. So anyway, a monk asks Zhou Zhou, does a dog have a Buddha nature? It's quite a good question. Does a dog have a Buddha nature? Does Mose have a Buddha nature? You must. The way he knocked me over. We should put Mose right up on the altar. We could all bow. Think he'd stay during service? Sit up there, Mose. Oh, Harry, when do you suppose it's like to be all covered with hair? Vanya knows. You sure used to see Vanya.

[27:07]

Cold snout. Does a dog have a Buddha nature? Ndjaojo said, yes. The monk said, what's he doing in that old skin bag?" And Zhao Zhou said, he dared to trespass. Another monk at another time asked Zhao Zhou, does a dog have a Buddha nature? And Zhao Zhou said, no. This is from the record of Zhao Zhou. is a con, it's usually presented in mumonkan as just moo, but in the record of Chow Chow, and in the Shoyu Roku too, it's these two questions. So a monk asks Chow Chow, does a dog have a Buddha nature? Chow Chow said, no. And he said, and the monk said, even the creepiest, creeping, crawling things has a Buddha nature, why not a dog?

[28:31]

Jojo said, because he still suffers from impulsive consciousness, or he still suffers from ignorance. So then you can ask, what is it to still suffer from ignorance? Or is Buddha nature this skin bag? Now mu is not an avoidance of this, it's when you really try to come to what is suffering, what is samsara, what is nirvana, yes and no and thinking just don't work. Pessimism just doesn't work. So you exhaust your thinking. This column doesn't make much sense until you come to the point that you really see what way is there to address this statement. We still have impulsive... you all still have impulsive... how do you address it?

[29:46]

Not knowing what to do, you just say, yes, no, yes, no, or one word, move, or just say, emptiness. On each breath, emptiness. Everything you do, emptiness. With a hoe and yet empty-handed. Walking and yet riding a water buffalo. Just everything you do, emptiness. No comment, maybe. Every time you're interviewed, no comment. All day long, no comment. No comment. Stops the comments, maybe. And you really have to do it without taking a break. If you take a break, it's lost. And you do, you've got three and a half days. Half the session is yet to come. It's coming, in fact. Event horizon, I told you. I think this is quite good There's another expression from physics which I like, zero time gates. Zero time gates. Good. But anyway, event horizon. But the Moo is to get you over the event horizon. But instead of a gravity, it's the barrier of your

[31:22]

and the chain of your consciousness. Yes and no. All your karma. So how are you going to get over that event horizon? Satori or Kensho is over that event horizon. And going back to Einstein, wanted to band together with his friends to find out utterly shareable laws of nature. Unfortunately, he produced a atomic bomb. But his idea was there to study how do we know things. And this is the same idea of the small sangha. Big sangha is everybody. We are small sangha. is we decide to band together to find out what's utterly shareable. And God isn't too far out an idea. We don't pay much attention to God, not because God is too superstitious an idea. Over the event horizon, how do we know your death is meeting the unknown?

[32:50]

God, we don't use God much, you know, because God, for us anyway, Buddhism, God is too simple an idea, too much a projection, doesn't help us much in chain of causation and phenomenal world. And some Buddhists use karma the same way. Some people asking for help for the Cambodians called up, I don't know what Buddhist group, but some Buddhist groups, and they were told, oh, there's no reason to help them, it's their karma. Well, this is, I think, nonsense. Yes, it's their karma and so forth, but still, these are some little baby. This is a ball cast on the rapids. were all balls cast on the rapids. Zhao Zhou had his first enlightenment experience when he was 17. And he exclaimed, I'm ruined and homeless. I like Zhao Zhou. Zhou Shu.

[34:17]

He was, you know, maybe, along with Matsu, the most classic Zen master. But Jao Zhou even is... He's not so Zen-y. He couldn't also be Christian or Jewish or some other religion too. They would accept him. And he practiced a long, long time without caring about being a teacher or not. or anything, just, I'm ruined and homeless. And if you really see, it's true, you will suddenly say, oh, all those ideas I had about career, or what I should do, or what was important, gone. Ruined and homeless. Some years later, his teacher, Nanchuan, said, they were, what is the way, ordinary, you know, how do you approach that koan. And Nanchuan said, when you're on the way, it's vast and empty as space. This is also the same ruined and homeless. But by then, some years later, Chow Chow had

[35:50]

penetrated it much more thoroughly. First words it maybe occurs to him, I'm ruined and homeless, but full occasion of that, how we exist with others. We deepen and deepen our way of existing, our way of repaying the benevolence of our friends and ancestors when they're not crossed. And we practice, ongo, practice period. How do we not cross people? How do we not care whether we're crossed or not? How do we trust ourselves? How does the road crew trust us? How do people trust us, actually? Can we be trusted? What kind of person? I always say, you know, it's very clear, what would you like another person to be like? You want them to be trustworthy. You want them to be honest. You want them, as I often say, to be Buddha. You want your friend to be Buddha. So, why not you?

[37:01]

Anyway, to practice this koan, Does a Dog Have a Buddha Nature? This koan emphasizes to penetrate everything with your concentration and your softness. Without a break, to find out without a break So not next year or some other time. We need encouragement. I'm encouraging myself. I'm talking myself into this session right now. We need encouragement because yes, no. So not next year or later or when you're ready. I mean, I hope

[38:32]

wide division of Suzuki Yoshi I try to give you, accepting everyone in practice, practicing together, the wide religious sense, doesn't make you forget the technique of movement, technique of concentration, technique of penetration. At some point, to continue your practice, to open your practice, to have your practice make sense, you have to take this completely on, like you've closed an iron door and there's nothing, it's just, and you're going to just, night and day, before you go to sleep, as much as you can while you're sleeping, you take something. Moo is okay. But something that gets out of your thinking. Something that gets out of your dialogue, something that over and over again, for one year or one month, or why not three and a half days now? At some point, we're kind of scared of it or something, you know? Holmes Welch asked the monks, he interviewed from their Chinese, great Chinese monasteries, weren't you bored?

[40:03]

sitting 10 or 15 hours a day. Most of them thought it was a rather peculiar question. He asked them, who was enlightened? They mostly ignored him. He talked to me about it, too. He asked me lots of questions about, would I show him this or that? And he asked Suzuki Yoshi the same question. You're not bored. This is amazing. Here you are, day after day, sitting here. I don't think you're bored. So, if you were bored, you would have run away. Because you're not bored, it means you have the taste of it. But you're not carrying it all the way. You have the taste of it. You're here. You wouldn't be doing this if you didn't have the taste of it. And the fact that you have the taste of it, you can be here for a Sashin and not be bored,

[41:04]

The main secret of this practice is right on you. But you need no breaks. You need an unutterable, unchanging, secret, complete concentration. Definitely. As much as you can possibly do and more. As I said yesterday, bow broken, arrows gone. without a quiver. Practice. But it's not just willpower. You need to take something to bring yourself back to it. But I can say, follow your skin. Follow your softness. Concentration, but there's a kind of softness.

[42:12]

Don't let go of it. Sort of die with your boots on. Practice with your, I don't know, shoes off. You know, stay in the traces. It's best if you can stay through the breaks. This kind of effort is necessary. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, you know, it's so... I don't mean to lay this drip on you, but it's necessary if you want to do this practice. Sometime. Not sometime. There's no sometime. You just... When you see it, you've got to start it right away. Not leave it to a better sashim. This is the best sashim. My gosh, look at the weather. Please repay in this way the benevolence of all the people who brought you to this practice.

[43:35]

Find out the secret of how we exist by giving up all your fears. No one but you and you have everything you need. Nothing to wait for. Great sensitivity is required. Effort and will, willingness and sensitivity, great sensitivity to 84,000 pores and 640 bones and joints. And a concentration or softness which penetrates, extends to everything. Then everything practices with you, and you are right in spot.

[44:55]

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