This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good evening. Good evening. Sometimes I think of Zen practice as falling down and getting up, and then getting up and falling down. But recently I was realizing it's even more than that. It's sometimes being very confident about my life and knowing where I was, and then it's like I've lost. And I think we usually prefer to know where we are. but it's sometimes more useful than though they were lost.

[01:01]

If you think that you know where you are, then you're rather complacent. If you think that you're lost, you may be depressed. But to just take each circumstance as it is and learn from it is the best. However Arlene introduced me as being here forever and all that, that might lead you to think that I know what I was doing. It might lead you to think that I know what I was doing. And sometimes I do, and sometimes I don't. And for me to be alert to that question is very useful.

[02:14]

I think the most important quality for a Zen student is to be courageous. Because we don't always know what's going on. And we're always falling down and we need to get up. and to be always alert to that part of us which could use a little bit of improvement. At the same time, not to be lost in being critical of yourself. If you're too critical of yourself, it's impossible because you don't believe anything that you do is very good. and you're so critical of yourself you can't take criticism. Many of you may have heard that the Dalai Lama has been told by many Western teachers that they all have poor self-esteem.

[03:30]

And at first he couldn't believe it. But eventually he's been convinced. And because we have so much to learn and so many things to It's important that we have some self-confidence. Otherwise, it's overwhelming. That's why we need courage. And it's the courage to be who you are, where you are,

[04:38]

Just that. And try to improve upon it. But it's okay to be you. Do you know that? Not only is it okay to be you, but there's nobody else you can be. You may want to be a big Buddha, but that may be who you are too. But a big Buddha who isn't you is an imagination. So that may be hard to take, It's okay to be you.

[05:44]

It may take a while to get used to. But who do you want to be? Anybody but me? Who do you want to be? What kind of life do you want to lead? To appreciate your life and to think you know where you are is good. To be puzzled by your life and not know exactly where you are or what you're doing maybe just being very straightforward. But you need to bring both of those things into your life.

[06:54]

Having great faith and great doubt is what makes Zen practice. To be keenly aware of what you're doing on each moment. And to also be puzzled. What am I doing? What's going on? If you can't be you, nobody else can be them. If you can't be you, you can't change. There's this entry of the famous poet, Su Tung Po, which I like very much.

[08:13]

which is helpful with this dual tracking. I'm talking about dual tracking. The way your habits are and the way the moment is. It's like looking at things in two ways. This is Su Tung Po on August 5th, 1088. One desires pleasures and fears a hard life. These are sentiments one entertains before leaving the so-called pleasure mode or hard life. After one is in it, one tries to think of the envy and the fear and finds that they are gone. Then where are the pleasurable and unpleasurable moments after they are passed? They seem to be like a sound, a shadow, a breeze, or a dream. Even these four things are somehow more tangible.

[09:16]

Besides, how is one ever going to find happiness by countering one illusion with another illusion? I wish I could express the steep truth to you, but I cannot. Su Tung Po, uh... He was a very famous poet, and he also got one of the highest scores on his exams, the nationwide exams, to see how he did it in order to be a lawyer or have some position in the government. He had gotten one of the highest scores, and he was Early on, he was advisor to the emperor. And he would get up and he would sit a little bit and then he would get into his garments to be around the king.

[10:33]

And then he would sit on his front porch and sort of nod out It was the best part of the day for him. He was kind of meditating, but he was also kind of sleepy. He was on the edge of being conscious and unconscious. And for him, it was the biggest joy of his day. And then the emperor would send around his carriage to pick him up. And he would spend time with the emperor. So this was a very prestigious position. But unfortunately, he got into some disagreement with the emperor, and he was dismissed and banished. So he knew the highs and lows. You'd think that he probably enjoyed being the emperor's advisor more than he did

[11:41]

not having that position. And maybe that's true. But I'm not sure that's true. Finding yourself on each occasion where you are is quite good. wanting to be happy and to be successful and knowing what's going on is actually rather limited. I'm not saying it's any better to the opposite.

[12:42]

But it's being One desires pleasures and fears a hard life. These are sentiments one entertains before leading the so-called pleasurable or hard life. After one is in it, one tries to think of the envy and the fear and finds that they are gone. Then where are the pleasurable and unpleasurable moments after they are passed? Where are these judgments? They seem to be like a shadow, a sound, a breeze, or a dream. Even these four things are somehow more tangible. Besides, how is one ever going to find happiness by capturing one illusion with another illusion? Being in a community is wonderful and it's terrible. It's wonderful in that you're all trying to do the same thing.

[13:48]

And here's a kind of oneness of purpose. And it's terrible because other people are so difficult to live with. They feel the same about you. And when you're in a community, you really congratulate yourself for being in the community. and think that the highest part of the community is who you are, or you feel depressed about being in a community because your status isn't very good or everybody is mixed up. When Zen Center had a crisis in the 1980s, some of the best people left and some of the worst people left.

[14:52]

And that was okay. People who didn't know any better, for any worse, who just were practicing, not for any exalted image of who they are or who they weren't. We stayed. That was pretty good. It was also okay to leave. Unless... But if we judge ourselves by external circumstances, of course it's inevitable that you will judge yourself by external circumstances, but that's just one way of judging.

[16:12]

But asking yourself who you are and what do you want is useful. Because if you keep judging yourself, That's like using one illusion to counter another illusion. And it takes courage to realize your shortcomings and to try your best, nevertheless. I remember when I was go on at Tassajara.

[17:23]

And I was a pretty good kokyo work chanter. I did pretty well with that. And hitting the bells was fine. But I was terrible at hitting the drum. And I would keep practicing hitting the drum. And I didn't get any much better. And at Tassar, even more than at Green Gulch, you can hear the drum horns being practiced all the time. And people would come up to me and say, you know you're not hitting the drum horn. And I'd say, oh? And of course I kept trying and I kept... I got a little better, but just a little better. And then the abbot, who never used to come until the third or fourth week, he heard me practicing the drum and he said, you know, you're not hitting the drum right.

[18:29]

Everybody thinks that you don't realize your shirt heavens. And they want to tell you just so you don't miss it. So then the abbot picked up the drum And he couldn't hit the drum very well either. But he sort of didn't admit it, he kind of started to talk and wandered off. But practicing on the drum was a great thing. And I got to be adequate, maybe. It's not a matter about how good I was on the jump. Of course, everybody wants to be the Gene Krumpha or something. But you only can do what you can do.

[19:38]

Well, there was another time in Tassajara where he was saying Sashin, And I happened to have stayed up all night. It wasn't a big heroic thing. It just, I was on a roll and I kept going. And I stayed up all night and I was alert. But then the wake up bell rang and we left as I know and washed up and came back. And I was dead tired. And the... Chinko, who... used the stick. We used the stick a lot more then. It was going around. And as in a community, you know, there are some people who like to use the stick. And they really get enjoyment out of it.

[20:41]

And that doesn't endear them to you. But of course they were better than people who didn't like to carry the stick because they would they wouldn't hit you very well. But this person who was carrying a stick the first or second period, and she really enjoyed it. And every time she came by me, she hit me. It was about six or seven times, which is really a lot. But I don't know why, but it was okay with me. She was doing her job, and I was trying to stay awake, and so we went through the dance. But I didn't have anything about how dare she do this, or didn't she know that I stayed up all night. It was just, that was just the way things went.

[21:48]

So this dual tracking is to notice what your habit of thinking is and to notice what the situation is and see how these things are not always the same. If I noticed that I wanted approval for the way I hit the drum and was upset when I didn't get it, even though I didn't deserve it, So I think sometimes I always want to be successful. And I'm not always successful.

[23:12]

Sometimes I fall down. And the important thing is not that you don't fall down. It's that you get up. In fact, it's actually a problem if you don't fall down because then you can't get up. People who come to Zen Center who can sit full lotus with no problem and are successful at all they do, we worry about them. Because there's nothing they have to work with. And they never stay anyhow. If you have a problem, that's a good thing. Suzuki Roshi said that having a problem is having a weed is like having a jewel because you can compost it and learn from it. Some of us just like to do what we're good at and not what we're not good at.

[24:23]

But if you just do what you're good at, you don't get any better at what you're good at. If you work on what you're not good at, you can get a little bit better at that, and that'll keep you from, that'll make you better at what you're good at. It's like... I think the first few years at Zen practice, we learned what it's like to be anyone. And we learned... have a firmer base which allows us to develop our talents more you have a good base then you can work on what you're good at but also you can't understand other people if you don't make mistakes what's the matter with anybody they're making mistakes oh I know about that So making mistakes or falling down and getting up is what's really inspiring about Zen practice.

[25:42]

After being in a community for many years to say, what am I doing here? It's actually refreshing, if it's not the only thought you have. If it's the only thought you have, then you should leap. But if you think that everything is hunky-dory and you've never ever thought of the doubt, I don't know about that. To appreciate the whole being of who you are, with your faith and your doubt, with what you're good at and what you're not good at, is taking the whole world and swallowing it. pick and choose too much. You pick and choose too much.

[26:53]

So it takes courage. It takes courage to not know if you're right or wrong and to make a than to make a step forward. If you always know that you're completely right, then there's something metallic about what you do. But if you're not sure, but you make a step anyhow, then you're bringing all of yourself with you. And that's what I liked about Su Tung Ko. Su Tung Ko was a great poet. He had tremendous highs and lows. At the end of his life, he couldn't... It wasn't like the good things stood out or the bad things stood out. An example of this is a poem by...

[28:14]

Jan Kaplinsky. And he wrote it about Suzuki Roshi. Shinryu Suzuki, a little Japanese living and teaching in California. Couldn't be my teacher, one of my non-teachers. A little lit match from God's matchbook box. Sea wind soon blew out. Somewhere between California and Estonia. somewhere between east and west, somewhere between somewhere and nowhere. Nobody can find out what remained of him. After the wind has blown and the tide come and gone, the white sand is smooth as before, but his smile from the back cover of Zen Man Beginner's mind has silently infected book after book on my shelves, and perhaps shelves themselves, and walls and wallpapers too. His smile from the back cover of Zenline Beginner's Mind is silently infected book after book on my shelves, and perhaps shelves themselves, and wall and wallpapers too.

[29:30]

That feeling someone who is so completely themselves is what we can aspire to be. And of course it's a funny thing, how can you not be yourself? It's about completely accepting who you are. And then that self changes. If you can't accept it, then you're holding on tight. the hardest thing it is is to give up our idea of who we are. Even when we give up our idea of who we are, there's still something that's holding on.

[30:56]

In Dogen's chapter on Buddha and Buddha, someone asked a teacher What should you do when hundreds and millions of things happen all at once? What should you do? Only don't try to control them. Even if you try to control them, you can't. And of course, hundreds and thousands and millions of things are happening all at once, all the time. In this room there are millions of things happening right now. Sometimes when we all try to do the same thing, we can see the difference.

[32:08]

If we all try to do the same thing, we can see our unique way of dealing with things. If we're all doing something different, then we can't tell. When Nisan Dorsey was dying, one of his senior students came up to him and said, I'm really going to miss you. And Nisan looked down and he said, are you going somewhere? He already thought that Nisan had died, in a way. of my favorite stories of Kategori Roshi in Minnesota.

[33:28]

They were doing some fundraising and they rented a beautiful home and got lots of flowers and good food and they wheeled Kategori Roshi in to say a few words and he said, you're all gonna die. Now that was the high-class teaching. He wasn't pulling any punches. He was telling it like it is. But people didn't appreciate it. They couldn't leave the room fast enough. So we're all going to die. Well, we all know that, sort of. The older we get, the more we know it.

[34:30]

And in a certain sense, all their judgments and ideas about ourselves will all disappear. Why not get rid of them sooner? Do you have any questions or answers? Yes.

[35:44]

You talked about doing what you're not good at and doing what you're good at. And so how do you decide what to do? I do what's in front of you. And sometimes it's what you're good at and sometimes it's not what you're good at. And sometimes what you're good at is not really what you're good at. I mean, like, I paint. It's not because I'm a good painter. But there's something I find in painting which is a letting go and a finding of a new situation. And it's not because I've got a particularly good hand stroke or eye coordination or anything like that. In fact, I've done more paintings since I've had Parkinson's. And I was... doing this workshop at Tassajara and I was painting and there was a medical doctor who was taking my course and he said, when you paint, I can't see your Parkinson's.

[36:59]

It's a kind of way of being free. But for some people, when they paint, they're so controlled. They actually make may do very well-executed paintings, or writers. I think writing is harder than painting, because the elegance of the word isn't like the elegance of the stroke. if you do artwork or music or anything in order to accomplish something I think you're going to be frustrated if you do it for the thing itself you can't lose did I answer your question at all?

[38:10]

Okay, thanks. Yes. I was curious, after a few years at Zen Center, do we know what it's like to be anybody? Sure. you may have noticed that you can't do things you prefer so much at a center. Whatever the temperature is, you live with it. Whatever the food is, whether you like it or you don't like it, you eat it. So you learn what it's like to be anyone, not someone who has those preferences. I mean, that's an exaggeration, but to a large extent, we just do what's in front of you. And so you learn what it's like to be anyone. And that's to get rid of those habits of how to live is very useful.

[39:16]

And then it becomes a time when it's useful to know what foods your body does do well with and what temperature does work well for you. And the more you know what it's like to be anyone, the more you can maximize what you're good at, what the circumstances that you're good at for you. And I always think that usually the first five or ten years of Zen practice is about learning what it's like to be everyone. And then comes the hard part, finding out what it's like to be you. And that's not always so, you can't always do that in a temple. Sometimes you have to leave. You spoke about having the courage to be you, and how you could not be anybody but you, dual tracking.

[40:22]

I wonder if you could speak to the other side where there is no you, or there's no self, or what self? If there's no self, then you can be you. If there's a self, then you have to measure up to the self that's got all these categories. If there's no success or failure, then you can act and maybe be successful or not successful. But if you've got all these categories which you've got to measure up to. And the funny thing about courage is courage isn't such a great thing. It's the only thing. I mean, it doesn't help not to be courageous, to not be courageous. That doesn't help. You don't do better with that. If you're courageous, you can learn something. And maybe you'll learn that what you thought was courageous wasn't courageous, but you'll learn it. And one of the great problems with the community is it can be very coercive.

[41:25]

Anyone does what's the right thing to do. And that's useful because you need to do that to live together. But you may be afraid to say something different because there's the There's the coerciveness of the community. And that's not a problem so much for the younger students. I think that's something they need to learn. For the older students to say, speak up and to say, I'm not sure that's right. And what happens is people, when they do do that, they try to demonize everybody. But it's not about demonizing people. but just saying what you think your truth is, and being willing to be wrong. I got off a little bit, a little offshoot there, but... That's okay. That's a good shoot. Okay. And Sonia, I appreciate your courage.

[42:31]

And sometimes it's... It's not always... the easy way, because it's a good way. It's a matter of courage. Where does it come from? How do you acquire it? Are we born with it? Can we develop it? Discover it? Forced into it? How does it arise, do you think? I think you can learn it because there's no alternative. I mean, any other alternative doesn't help.

[43:35]

You may think that if you're not courageous that you can hide. And that you'll be successful by hiding. But that doesn't help. It takes looking at yourself clearly. Because some people think courageousness is just complaining. That's not what courageousness is. Courageousness is looking at the thing clearly and saying... I don't know if this is right or not, but it seems like the best thing. It seems like this is the way it is. And let me raise it to see, to find out. Even if you do that alone. Yeah. Yeah, it's... Courageous is not just one of the people. Some people can't look at themselves because they can't... I know somebody who's a big teacher, and he said if...

[44:35]

I broke a precept, I killed myself. Now many people think he breaks precepts, but they don't want to tell them. And there's a part of him that's hiding behind that, because we may take our precepts very seriously, but we may fall short. So we have to look at it clearly for ourselves. Not just as a show to other people. Where did you go for so long? We'll take a week and talk about it. It's good to see you again. I was trying to find out who I was, as you say. I'm curious about categories that you mentioned.

[45:50]

What categories do you keep? And do you think in terms of free, or what categories do you work with? Well, I don't... I think so much about false and true categories because I don't look at it that way so much. But I'm stuck with some categories. Being born at a certain time, in a certain body, I have certain categories that come up for me. But I don't believe that they're the only categories. So it's not like we should get rid of categories. It's like form. All forms are... We have forms which they may be limited, but they reveal something to us.

[46:58]

But what do you really want to know about categories? I agree with you that categories limit us. In thinking categories are inspired. The strength to stay in terms of success, failure, self-esteem, ego or self-esteem. To get rid of them is very difficult, but to get rid of them, you have to have to turn that the categories don't work, in a way they are constructed, in a way that leads us to place the resolve. That's why I'm asking, what categories would work in terms of vocabulary, in terms of images? Yeah. Well, I think it's important to honor categories, even if they're not so good. There's stuff that information comes through you. You say, I dismissed that category, but there's some data you're dismissing along with the category.

[48:02]

Yeah. I guess that's the one thing I was wondering about when you said categories, that they are limited. Yes, they are limited and they are limiting, but they may be the best we got, or that we got something with them. And they may be inadequate, but they're what we got. Sure, thanks. From Israel, I teach about Israel and Palestine. One of the main issues that I'm dealing with is fear. Fear? That's a big one. I don't know if you can talk about it. Fear is... Yeah. We're not courageous because we're afraid to be courageous. Fear is something that's going to happen to us if we do something wrong.

[49:07]

Or fear is that we're always on the precipice of disaster. And there's some truth to that. But we're on the precipice of great things and terrible things at the same time. And there's no hiding from choice. Now, the thing about fear, which is not so good, is that it freezes us. We don't act because we're afraid. But fear is just information. Oh, I'm afraid of that. That's okay. That's pretty good. And they say, well, I'm afraid of it, so everybody should do it.

[50:08]

Or I'm afraid of it. Maybe I should wait until more... more appropriate time, better, propitious time to do it. So fear is a category. It's not something you want to, well, I want to get rid of all fear. If you get rid of all fear, you get rid of all courage, too. Fear is very hard, and fear is something that each one of us has to look at in the pit of our stomach. So I honor that as a subject well worth the examination. I'm curious, my sister has Parkinson's recently, and I'm curious how you deal with it, how you live with it, how it affects your life.

[51:33]

You could say anything. That's a good question. Well, the easy thing I can say about Parkinson's is it's been useful to me. in that I used to be able to do everything I want without discrimination. Now I have to pick out things I have to make priorities, which I didn't have to do before. Now probably if I had gotten older and I didn't have Parkinson's, I'd still have that problem, but it forces me to do that more. And it's... completely puts me at odds with raising the question about how my body and mind are different. Or are they different? And I've learned that I'm pretty well at working with things.

[52:48]

I do work with my Parkinson's fairly well. But there's a talent I don't have, which is throwing it off. I'm trying to learn that. But I'm not so good at that. When you paint. Well, painting is going beyond it. It's not When I entered the realm of painting, it's not about Parkinson's or not Parkinson's. Anyhow, that's sort of what I'm working with. Thank you for asking that difficult question. Yes? Is it because when you're painting, it's an out-of-body experience, even though it's embodied? but it's not a mind experience, so that you can detach yourself from your physicality?

[54:00]

I don't think so, but it may be as good an explanation as I would give, but I don't have that explanation. But I think it's just... I'm totally... immersed in one thing, the categories about who I am fall away. I don't know if that's true, but that's what I said today. I would say about this, that in the creative act, you were engaged with arrows, with the life force. Yes. Which really, again, lets other clear physical whatever's so that somehow you're tapping into strengths or resources there. Yeah, that's okay. Maybe. Maybe.

[55:05]

I have someone who does sacral cranial work with me, and it works very well. I actually... go to a place where I'm completely at ease. But it passes. And now I'm working with a Chinese medicine person who's trying for me to get rid of the Parkinson's, which is more difficult for me. I know how to make it a pal and hang out with it. But I don't know how to get rid of it. And I don't know if that's the way things are or not. So that's one of the things I'm working on to see if I can cut it at its root. But I may not be able to. And I don't know if that's a foolish notion or not.

[56:13]

But that's one of the things I'm working with. That's courage. Thank you. Courage is... I don't think there's any alternative to courage, but it's no... At the same time, it's no big thing. It's just that's the only way you can be. Now is the time when I wrap up to make sure that I said what I really wanted to say during the talk. Which is... You're you.

[57:20]

And that's a marvelous thing. That you completely accept who you is. that part of you that you don't want to be you, you completely embrace it. That's pretty good. And if you can't embrace it, that's okay too. Just do your best. And there are other people who are rooting for you. and I thank you for coming tonight. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support.

[58:31]

For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[58:42]

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