This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Hi. It's good to be with you all. It's always good to be at Tassajara. Come on in. And I'd just love to go around and... And hear your name and maybe what you're doing this season at Tassajara. Correct. Currently on general labor. Heather on the dining room group. I'm Susan. I'm doing guest practice. I'm Steph. I'm in the stone office. I'm Alex. I'm the E-note. I believe Heather for me. Rosina doing guest practice. Taylor, doctor. Chris, in the shop. Jeffrey, kitchen.

[01:00]

Benson, Shika, assistant. Konyo. That's Sway, the ID teacher. Greg, Tato. Bradley, dangle. Good luck, guys, practice. Say, daddy, boo. Joe, fire training. Tim, in the shop. One, two, one, two, one. F, kitchen. Catherine, in the office. Great. Well, we're going to spend the next hour, and those of you who come back tomorrow, also from 3.30 to 4.30, exploring the topic of meeting conflict with compassion and Yesterday someone asked me what it was called, and apparently I said meeting compassion with conflict, so it may be a very different workshop.

[02:06]

I don't know. And Fu provided a warm-up for me this morning because she passed me on the bridge getting ready for class. And she said, oh, give me an overview, a quick overview of the class. And I started to answer, and then I think she decided she wanted a more experiential answer. So she came at me. with a conflict of two senior staff members in disagreement about how to redo the Abbott's Garden. And we're still in discussion, in case you want to know. So I want to tell you a little bit about what I have planned for the next couple of days, and then we'll see what happens. So I'm going to ask you in a moment, just those of you who want to share what you'd like to get out of class, we're going to talk about what it means, meeting conflict with compassion.

[03:09]

What does that mean? And have a shared understanding of it, I hope. One of my favorite topics is spiritual bypasses of conflict. So we're going to talk about that. And then Buddha's way of meeting conflict, of hopefully addressing it skillfully and kindly. And then I hope that we'll have a little bit of practice. I'm going to invite you to, those of you who want to, come up here with me and we'll engage a conflict together. But I won't call on anyone or put anybody on the spot, so please don't worry. And then tomorrow, what I have planned is for us to talk about schoolful means and conflict, particularly the Eightfold Noble Path and some of our other core teachings. So, as I said, that's what I planned, and we'll see what happens.

[04:11]

And I also intend and hope. for us to have a discussion because, well, for one thing I know, I'm pretty sure I know what I'm going to say. So it's much more interesting if we talk about it together, at least for me. So would anyone like to just share what you'd like to get out of the class? Maybe raise hands since there's a lot of us. Yes. I would like to work on how to resolve comforts in such a way that we are able to avoid blame and assigning blame and making someone's wrong. Anyone else? Yes. Maybe learn a little bit about the difference between compassion and pity or sympathy.

[05:13]

just peek into kind of layers of conflict like what's pain and what's suffering in the context of conflict. Okay. Please remember what you're sharing and there'll be lots of time for questions so if you feel like what you'd like to leave with isn't addressed please ask. Anyone else? Yes. I've been thinking recently about all the certain people I expect to be in conflict with. And then how those expectations create conflict. Or the feeling of conflict. It's interesting. Working with and recognizing conflict in a culture where conflict is often avoided or swept under the rug or... pretty much as a bad rap.

[06:20]

Thank you. When we have to say something and do something or when you just have to accept, how do we draw that line and how do we figure that out? Thank you. Linda? I'd be curious to know how you understand the word conflict, what that encompasses. May you. Well, that's a good segue into I did want to talk about conflict just a little bit and start by saying that I've been studying it for probably a couple of years now. Conflict was something that's come up both in my work, I work with non-profits, and I was asked to facilitate a conflict that one of City Center's weekly sangha was having, the steering committee of that sangha.

[07:24]

And I just found it really fascinating. We're all sincere practitioners, and we study the teachings, and sometimes it's really challenging to use them when we're in conflict with someone or in a difficult situation. And a lot of feelings and thoughts and... kind of default attitudes come up. So I both experience and understand conflict now as an opportunity. When conflict arises, something wants to happen. It's either a disagreement, like about the Abbott's Garden, or it's two styles that are really different. And so you try and or solve a problem together. You have different opinions, different styles, and you lock horns. And it's also sometimes in a relationship.

[08:27]

It might be in a practice relationship, a work relationship, love relationship. Two people change, and you start having conflict. And so something wants to happen. Perhaps the relationship is going to... deepen in some way. Perhaps it's time to change it, its form, or end it. And so when conflict is swept under the rug, they all know what happens, which is what? Yeah. Comes out sideways, upside down, through the cracks. Usually not so helpfully or constructively. So that is my understanding of conflict. And I think I'm still in a process of learning myself about it and becoming more skillful. But certainly when I was younger and not too many years ago, I found conflict really scary.

[09:34]

I responded to it with a lot of anxiety and fear, partly how it was dealt with in my house and when I was growing up, which was some people would explode, and others, like me, would hide. So it wasn't very safe, and it wasn't very healthy, and whatever wanted to happen just couldn't happen. So there just kept being eruptions. And so now, when there's conflict, I find it very interesting. It's still scary sometimes, and still sometimes anxiety comes up, but there's also curiosity. Like, underneath my reactions, underneath the anxiety, what's really there? What's causing the conflict? What's my attitude? What am I bringing to it?

[10:36]

And then it's possible for me to remember to ask, And what about this person I'm in conflict with? I actually learned the term conflict partner from a wonderful book, and I'll share a couple at the end of our time together, which means we are turning towards the conflict together. What's happening? Let's unpack it, and let's figure it out together. Let's do it in partnership. So does that answer your question? One thing you answered for me, if I can just add on. Please do. When it's actually leaking out, because I think there, maybe especially here, and with wanting to be good people not in conflict, there may be feelings that it never actually comes out in, or it may take quite a while to actually come out in anything being expressed. So I was wondering if it also included difficulty. Situations that one or maybe both persons, but maybe just one person, consider difficult.

[11:42]

That it sounds like what you're talking about is when something is actually happening, something visible to both people. Yeah, or it could be the kind of situation that you're talking about where it sounds like there's maybe some uncomfortable feelings and they're not expressed directly, so they leak out. Actually, I did my first practice period. my only practice period so far at Tassajara in 2012. And it's something that I noticed in working together that there were difficult feelings between people at times. There were conflicts. And I just noticed it was really hard for a lot of us to feel okay about that. You know, I'm practicing. I should be calm. And to express it skillfully. So I think... I think that really further piqued my interest in learning about conflict. So one of my favorite topics is what I call spiritual bypass of conflict.

[12:54]

My teacher, Darlene Cohen, I know some of you had the pleasure of being around her, used to call it jumping to the higher self. I would like you to actually talk to your neighbor for a moment or two and come up with an example of a spiritual bypass of conflict. Like what's taking a teaching, for example, and you pass right over or under or around a conflict. So just talk to your neighbor for a second and see if you can come up with an example. Well, judging from the animation of your discussions and my own experience, I'd say we all have expertise in the spiritual bypass of comfort.

[13:59]

I'm not sure I understand. Okay. Well, let me ask for examples, and I think that we'll clarify together. Thank you. Some examples? You look like you have an example, Russell. Well, actually, we had a question of whether sometimes what could be called spiritual bypass actually also appropriate ways to deal with conflict from a practice standpoint. Like, it could be that I think this is just my problem, or at least I'll deal with my part of the problem by saying that they're attracting a thing and not talk to the other person. And it seems like sometimes that's accurate, and sometimes that's spiritual bypass. I completely agree it's situational. And I think sitting with a conflict and not saying anything for a while is often a very skillful thing to do, because... You know, if you say something when you're feeling angry or upset, often there's a lack of skill involved.

[15:07]

But I think that when you pass the sell-by date, you start feeling it because the situation is still there. There's still a difficulty. So it's actually more than just I need to sit with my part. So I think it comes back to mindfulness and paying attention. That's a great question and statement. So examples? Yes? Sort of focus on action, but not doing it stillfully can let you get walked over, sort of, if you're too passive with other people's position. Yeah, that's... Yeah, we're going to get to that in a minute because we're going to have the fun of talking about tendencies of mind and how we deal with conflict. Like if you're a delusion type, for example.

[16:08]

So we will come back to that topic. Thank you. Other examples? Yes, Steph. Let's say... somebody upsets me in some way and I'm having different judgmental thoughts about them. I might dismiss those thoughts and those judgments rather than really examining them and allowing myself to feel how I feel and maybe express them if it's appropriate. Rather than doing that, dismissing the thoughts in the name of emptiness. Oh, those thoughts are empty, those feelings are empty. I'm not going to pay attention to those. That's one of my favorite spiritual bypasses. That and There is no conflict. There's no empty. There's no self to have it. Yeah, no self is a good one. Other examples? Yes. I thought spiritual bypassing was, you know, before I thought this, and now I'm not saying it's just a much bigger thing, but I thought it was like where someone is kind of like spent a lot of time developing a...

[17:17]

aspect of themselves, probably in the spiritual vein, but maybe they're a complete sexual beauty over here, and yet they're very wise over here, but maybe an alcoholic in a dude on this side. So that's what I thought, spiritual podcast. And that's another workshop. Is that not what it is? That's what somebody told me. That... I don't think I would call that a spiritual bypass, but I'd love to have a conversation with you over tea maybe before we leave on Friday, because I think that's an important topic. Yes? How about the term let go and let God? Would that be a spiritual bypass? Well, I think that's one tradition's spiritual bypass, definitely. If you let go and let God when there's a conflict that needs to be engaged... then it'll continue to fester. And I think that's another flavor of emptiness or the near enemy of compassion.

[18:23]

You know, I don't want to cause more suffering by, you know, bringing up the conflict I'm having with this person who's having a hard time. Yes? It wasn't me at the moment. You mentioned turn the other cheek. Turn the other cheek. They're good. excuse, although turn the other cheek is maybe a little more sophisticated than itself. Well, I think it's always situational, and I think kind of the North Star in all of this is what really needs to happen, what needs to be attended to. My teacher Darlene used to say you can't just have a policy and whip it out. Do you remember her saying that? And so I think that's part of mindfulness. Sometimes it might be entirely appropriate to turn the other cheek in a conflict with someone with whom it's not safe to engage. There are people in which that's the situation.

[19:25]

Or for some other reason you feel that it is not going to be helpful to engage with someone. And sometimes that might be the right thing to do. That might be truly the kind thing to do. But if that's what you always do, then again, there's going to be all kinds of fires and situations affecting your life that need to be turned toward. Yes? I think it will be an example of somebody acting in a kind and forgiving way without having resolved Difficult feeling toward a person. Yeah, I would categorize that as kind of a near enemy of compassion too. You know, being compassionate, practicing loving kindness when there's something really festering that needs to be dealt with underneath.

[20:29]

One more? Yes. They'll get theirs. They'll get theirs. In Eastern traditions, karma and Western spiritualities, belief in the howling. Kind of like... I was thinking it was Brooklyn Mafia that was, they'll get theirs. You've got a burning one. No, I was just saying something that I do is, if they say something to me, I just think, my God, if they said that to me, what must they be saying to themselves? And that offers some compassion. Yeah. I think that's incredibly kind and compassionate and I think that that can be really helpful in entering into looking at a conflict together and trying to deal with it because understanding what's going on with yourself and understanding what's going on with the other person is really essential to resolving a conflict and being partners in that process.

[21:37]

in partnering with your self in some way, it's more of a inner conflict, I guess. Like if it's something someone feels, or I've experienced that, like feeling two different things around a particular decision or what have you, what is it to bring compassion to, or, and not bypass that, um, sense of two different what might two different I guess that can be experienced as opposing points of view or within your own self within yourself yeah some conflicts yeah some conflicts you don't need a partner for you can just it's all in there and then you want to sit with Leslie especially if you're both have an inner conflict and you have a conflict with someone else you really need to sort out what's going on in you first, and then I think it's essential to take a little bit of time.

[22:40]

Because if you ever tried to deal with someone you're having difficulty with and you're conflicted within your own self, that goes really well without taking a little time to sort it out, huh? Well, thank you. Your list is actually better than my list. I guess the one thing you didn't mention, which I think is kind of an undercurrent, is, well, I practice, and so I shouldn't have conflict. There is no conflict, really, because I am calm and I am Buddhist. And I really have seen versions of that in my time of practicing. And it doesn't turn towards what is. You know, it's a misunderstanding of the teachings. Because whatever peace we find, it comes and it goes.

[23:43]

There can be an undercurrent of stability, which we cultivate when we meditate. And then it makes it much more likely that I can meet you when we have a conflict and hear you. So when you hear the term meeting conflict with compassion, what does it mean to you? Tonto Greg. Like it might be okay to have conflict. It might be. Yes? To meet the person who had a conflict with you. I'm going to try to see where they're coming from and what has led to them to happen if that's the way. Yes. A conflict might be okay to meet the other person and understand them as a practice of compassion.

[24:49]

To meet yourself when you're conflicted within your own self. Anything else come up? Yeah. I think... being relaxed around whatever feelings you're having. Yes, that is where emptiness and no self I think are very helpful teachings. It's not having an expectation of the way things are going to go, just approaching it with an open heart and feeling that you can learn from it as well. Absolutely. I know when I have expectations and either sometimes consciously or more often unconsciously impose them on a situation or a conflict, it doesn't allow what wants to happen to happen. And usually my expectations are met, and then I get disappointed and upset, and that gets layered onto the conflict. So, thank you.

[25:53]

Yes? To have respect for the amount of suffering involved. Yes. That in every level of comfort, from personal and interpersonal to drones and gods, that in looking for compassionate resolution, it's very important to respect the suffering. I agree. Which also opens the heart, and then it's much more likely we can truly meet each other in the conflict. I think, did you have your hand up, Heather? Okay. Anyone else? Meeting? Yes, Benson. I'm having the curiosity to investigate what's actually happening with the conflict. beyond face value I think is an aspect that's needed perhaps an aspect of compassion in that way inquiring yes the way the way I understand meeting conflict with compassion it really I think encompasses what you've all said which is inclusiveness

[27:23]

which means I include myself and my experience. I actually sit with my experience, and I include you and your experience with curiosity, with respect for suffering. Hopefully I can be aware of the expectations that I have. And then there's a possibility... of unpacking what's really happening here. Because usually whatever you're in conflict about is real, is real. And there's also something deeper going on. It might be style, it might be something that wants to happen within the relationship. You know, sometimes I deal with organizations. It means the organization needs to move to a different stage of being. And so all kinds of conflicts come up amongst staff because they kind of hold the change that needs to happen in their bodies actually.

[28:33]

So inclusion I think is really vital in meeting conflict with compassion. And the teachings that we were talking about in relationship to spiritual bypass are actually essential to conflict and compassion which is emptiness and no self it doesn't mean there's no conflict because all my feelings are empty so how can there be a conflict it does mean that those feelings are going to come and go the way they do in meditation the way they do moment to moment so there is that emptiness to them, the self changes moment to moment. And being aware of that, holding my feelings lightly, gives me the opportunity to actually attend to them and to be open to my conflict partner.

[29:46]

So my feelings are strong right now. What are they telling me? I'm upset, I'm hurt, I'm anxious, I'm angry, I'm in conflict with this person. These feelings are telling me I need to deal with what's happening here. They're a little bit of a compass to what's going on within me and between me and this person, and they will change. What I see over and over again, like the sangha I was telling you about at City Center, I... I think the major part of my role was to ground the room when the group was there so they could express what was really going on and what their experience was. And then I would sometimes, you know, help them stay with their experience and with right speech. And that alone started to really shift their conflict, move them from there were people who wanted to be right

[30:49]

and there were people who were very attached to their perspective on the conflict, and then they heard other parties talk about, well, here's where I was coming from, and realized, oh, there's other points of view. Have you ever had that experience? You're really upset with someone, and you think that they want to hurt you, and then you hear what's happening with them, and it's a completely different story? So when we talk about inclusion... It also means I include and understand my story and my experience and your story and your experience. And there is also actually the relationship story and the relationships experience. There's my needs and there's your needs and there's the relationships needs. So when Fu and I were having our little practice session this morning about redoing the Abbott's garden, And she was coming at me saying, I think your idea is wrong.

[31:53]

I said, once I got over my surprise, because I was about to give her an overview and description of this workshop, I just said, oh, well, I'd love to understand what your perspective is. And then maybe I can tell you mine. And it was really funny. She just was like, oh. It just kind of took the energy out of the charge. And it's not like that's always going to work, but I've noticed that it often works. Just to your point, Benson, stopping for a moment, breathing, and just saying, I get that you think I'm wrong, and I really want to understand where you're coming from. And oftentimes our response is just a real surprise. Because there's, I think our default tends to be either to avoid the conflict, which several people have mentioned.

[32:58]

Okay, you're right. Whatever you want. You obviously feel strongly about this. And, you know, I'm not that attached to my opinion. Yes? I mean, for me, there's a difference between having a conflict in a peer relationship. In a relationship where someone's in authority over you, where expressing conflict... There's a big difference. ...can be insubordination. There's a big difference. Do you mind if I ask you to hold that question and even write it down? Because I'd like to sort of continue laying the foundation, and either later today or... Will you be back tomorrow? Okay. But please ask me... And that's a really important question because it's much trickier when there's a power dynamic like that involved. And you really need to assess, can I deal with this? How should I?

[33:58]

But we'll talk tomorrow. So what I would actually like to do before I forget, and oh my gosh, I only brought 20 copies. I don't think there's enough. Okay. So I'm going to save one copy so we'll have more tomorrow. You are a full-service punk. So I have a worksheet. And what I'd like to do is pass it around. And maybe people who brought something to write with, you can look over your shoulder until you get your own copy. So we're going to use this worksheet the next couple of days and I'd like you to fill out number one and two. So number one as you'll see is simply I'd like you to just in a few sentences jot down either maybe a conflict you have now that you're having trouble dealing with

[35:11]

or a conflict you had, and you kind of wish you dealt with it a little more skillfully. So I'd like you to just, you know, it doesn't need to be in great detail, but just jot down the conflict and maybe a couple of main elements of what made it a conflict. And then number two, what you feel like kept you, is keeping you now from dealing with this conflict, or kept you from dealing with the conflict. And we're going to use these in a few minutes, those of you who are game. Like I said, I'm not going to put anyone on the spot. So I'll give you just a couple of minutes, be real brief, to fill that out. To fill out the whole sheet? No, just numbers one and two. And then we'll talk a little bit more, and then we'll workshop what we've been talking about. You have one?

[36:13]

You have one. So who needs a copy? I need a copy. I gave mine away. Thank you.

[37:16]

Pass me over there. No, over there. They're marked hands. Yeah. Can anyone else see it, please? Am I asking the work seat? Mm-hmm. Anyone else, too? Thank you.

[38:35]

Another minute. you didn't finish number one and two on your worksheet.

[41:26]

And there are a couple of other things I wanted to discuss with you. And then I'm going to invite whoever wants to to come up here and share your conflict. And we will play with it. We'll practice. And I will play you or your conflict partner whatever, however you want to do it works for me. So today we're kind of focusing on what I call the internal landscape in relationship to conflict and our attitude towards conflict. And a couple of other elements that I wanted to mention is that when we're in conflict, disagree with someone or are upset by someone, you know, to our primal selves, that person becomes a big dinosaur.

[42:28]

And it evokes flee, fight, or freeze. So that is kind of a gut-level primal response that it's important, you know, again, our mindfulness and meditation practice to be aware of what's my default. I'm a delusion type. following in Darlene's self-proclaimed tradition. And so my tendency is to kind of freeze and shut down and want to avoid. So we have that primal system that it's important to be aware of and get intimate with. And then there's also our tendency of minor style. And since we practice here, I wanted to talk about that for just a moment or two in relationship to the three poisons, greed, hate, and delusion.

[43:30]

So if I am, I already gave a hint, so I'll go with delusion. If I'm a delusion type and I'm in conflict, what's my tendency going to be? What do you think? Explain it away. Explain it away. avoid it. Not notice it. Not notice it. I'm a delusion type. Yeah, I'm a delusion type. Everything's fine. I'm a delusion type and I'm on the road to being enlightened. So, yeah, exactly. I'm right. And someone at lunch today said, oh, I have a very effective way of dealing with conflict. I just sweep it under the rug and then I tie it in a neat little package. And that works really well except for the one time a month where it kind of, I guess, all the dust explodes through the bow. I think many of us just feel like, oh, if I avoid this, it'll go away. So what if I am a greed type?

[44:31]

What's my default in relationship to conflict going to be, likely be? Make them like me. What? Make them like me. Yeah. I'll get them to like you. Yeah, like... One way or another. Yeah. Yeah, I will compromise. Yeah, how you want to do the Abbott's Garden is fine. Yeah. I will become totally out of touch with how I feel and what I think. Huh, maybe I'm a greed type too. What about, yes? What about nagging, the greed type? There's a conflict so I can just keep bringing it up. Without really bringing it up, I'm just picking away at the person. What's the question? The question is if you're a greed type, and this gentleman was just commenting, what about nagging, that you just... I could see, you know, my understanding of kind of that point is that if you're a greed type, it's so important to you to take care of things and for everybody to be happy that you're going to keep trying to make that happen.

[45:39]

So that's... Sort of also the pleasure, the thing festering, so you don't really want to confront it with this sort of pleasure of just sort of, like the scab you keep picking. Sort of fulfills your greedy nature. I think that might be a fourth poison. I think someone, okay, Benson. I guess I'm not really following the, I mean, I would certainly be my first thought that a great type would really, really want their position satisfied. Do it my way. It's really counterintuitive to what Greg just said. So I'm not going to actually argue with you. But I would actually say that what you're describing is more of the third type, which is hate, which is... it's my way or the highway.

[46:42]

So a hate type would be more attached. That's more of a win-lose mentality. So this is what I think, and you are wrong, and so I'm going to prevail. But I understand your thinking with the greed type. I'm greedy for my position to prevail. I think that's what you mean, right? So I think that could be one way of interpreting how agreed type might engage in conflict. So I wanted to say if any of you are feeling a little frustrated that this is kind of an overview discussion today and tomorrow so we're not going to get real in depth because this could be a whole semester class or a whole practice period class. Yes? You have to go. Okay. So I hope to plant some seeds and some ideas. I know that Linda is going to be working with senior staff on difficult conversations and is going to be teaching a class on right speech.

[47:49]

And we will lay some groundwork for that today and tomorrow. So the reason I bring up knowing your tendency of mind or your sort of Buddhist personality type is understanding how you engage conflict is really helpful and important in doing it skillfully. So if I know that my tendency is to avoid, then I need to be aware of that there's a conflict. I'm probably going to try and find a way to sweep it under the rug. Well, it's not that big a deal. You know, it'll be fine. And it's important for me to understand how you deal with conflict. So you are a hate type. You're going to come at me with, you know, I'm right. And here's why. And you're going to maybe try and overwhelm me. So it's important for me to understand my style and your style and how do we work together to engage our conflict.

[48:53]

So are there any, is there one or two burning questions? Otherwise we've got just a few minutes left and I wanted to have one little practice session with some brave soul. Yes. I completely agree. So then you want to look at, is there a predominant tendency? So yeah, absolutely. We're all, all three. I have more of a thrust towards delusion, but I can be greedy and hateful with the best of them. Yes. I'm just wondering about the timing to deal with the conflict. Because we study all of that, understanding the hell now, and revelation, and complete itself, all of that. It takes a long time to do it.

[50:01]

I think... It depends on the conflict and it depends on your style. Like there are some people who need more time to gather their thoughts. I'm more of a shoot from the lit time, so it's actually good for me to take the time to gather my thoughts. And also as a set of skills and practices, it gets more seamless and more intuitive between, you know, noticing I'm upset and... and delving into unpacking what's going on, and then bringing it up. So does anybody want to play with me? Sure. Okay. Come on up. Bring your chair. Let's move this over. Oh, that is heavy. I just have a... Okay.

[51:05]

Hypothetical. When Heather and I were speaking, I brought up NASCAR as a recreational sport. And these kind of ideas on energy usage. And in an American sense with sort of an outward view of America looking... at American habits can be seen as, um, that energy usage patterns aren't, are, are from a privileged standpoint or, are not, are not, not so responsible in having, uh, that's, that would be one view of it. And so let's talk about it. Are we having a cup of coffee in a diner? Sure. What are we doing? And who are you in a diner? I don't know. You can pick. Okay. Okay. Well, why don't you just pick a point of view and start the conversation and the conflict, and I'll respond.

[52:12]

Okay. So I'll play the person who is, let's say, thinking that NASCAR may be not such a responsible use of resources. Okay. And I'm going to be the NASCAR driver? Okay. Or driver, employee, or fan. Employee or fan. I'll be a fan. So I'm a NASCAR fan. Okay. Am I a woman or a man? You can pick. I can pick. Okay. Eat your wig. Want me to be Trixie? She's really good with her wig. Oh, well. Yeah, but Trixie is about peace and love. So, let's say I say... No, just say it. You're not saying what you say. You're saying it. That energy usage sort of from a sporting perspective considering things like global warming and environmental impact could create a sense of not being aware of

[53:31]

the way we're using our energy in daily life. So you're saying that we NASCAR fans are not aware of energy usage? Is that what you're saying? I just want to get clear. I'd like to understand your perspective on the reasons why you enjoy NASCAR. You're criticizing my thought. You're criticizing my sport. You know, I go every weekend NASCAR. So, you know, what are you saying? How many NASCAR drivers you think there are? It's not like, you know, there's 50 million of us on the road there. Yeah, I don't know how to respond. Just be honest. So I want to... understand where you're coming from. So you are criticizing... Have you ever been to a NASCAR race?

[54:32]

I haven't. So what are you talking about? I guess I don't understand the culture of NASCAR. Well, I want to invite you to a race next weekend and I will buy the beer. I don't drink alcohol. I will buy the lemonade. Okay. I'd be open to experiencing... what your side of NASCAR is. Good. So I'll pick you up at 10 in my Prius. Okay, next. Somebody with more wanting to fight. Yeah, you're too nice. Are you showing me from the Bronx? I don't know. Wow. Anyone else? We've got about five minutes. So there was a woman in the bathhouse last year.

[55:41]

She came. And she was... She came in. And I was cleaning the bathhouse. And two male attendants were working and water supply was shut down. So she came in and she said, I told her, The bathhouse is closed for an hour, come back later. And she said, so I paid all my money, and I still cannot use the bathhouse? And I said, well, there is no water supply, there is no showers. She said, well, I'll go to the planche. And I said, you cannot go to the planche unless you take a shower. And she was very... So she left because I made a face. But she was very unhappy. So it wasn't resolved. Conflict was weird. So you want to play her? Oh, yeah.

[56:43]

Does anybody have a towel? No. Okay. So I'm cleaning up the bathhouse, right? Yeah. And I'm just not here. I just came in. Were you standing? I was. I was thinking like this. So I'm walking in. Can I pass through? I'd like to use the black house. You know, I'm really sorry, but the water supply is shut off, and we're cleaning, so you can't use the bathhouse right now. I just paid $300, and you're telling me that I cannot use the bathhouse? God, I am really sorry, and if I were in your shoes, I'd be upset too. But we will be done in an hour or an hour and a half, and then you can come back and use the bathhouse, and I'll hold your towel for you.

[57:51]

I want to use the plunge. You know, this is very Kafkaesque. Did you read Kafka in college? Are you trying to tell me that I'm not intelligent enough? Absolutely not. I can tell you have the brilliance to use the bathhouse. What I am saying is that you can't use the lunge unless you take a shower, but the water's turned on. They often say, I took a shower last night. You know, I understand that, but it was 110 degrees today. You know, more importantly, we do have a policy to take care of all of our guests so that our waters are clean. And I'm not saying you're not clean. It's just our policy. So if you come back in an hour and a half, the bathhouse will be ready for you sparkling. And I am really sorry. I understand you just paid your $300. That's easy, huh?

[58:53]

Yeah. Well, I think that kind of awareness of, because you came at me and I actually did feel some anxiety. Oh, yeah. But I also felt, I also really felt, of course she's upset. I'd be upset too. Well, I don't know if I'd be upset because I'm a delusion type. Anyway, that's another conversation. But I thought, you know, the first thing I need to do is say, of course you're upset. You know, and that is the part of dealing with a situation like that where you... That's the compassion part. Like, you're upset. You're a particular style. I would think to myself, she's probably a hate type because she's coming right at me. And so the way I would want to meet you is to say, I am so sorry. Of course you're upset. I will be upset too. And in an hour, you'll be able to use the bathhouse and I'll hold your towel. But that's... You know, the skills we're talking about is, you know, if I'm a hate type and a hate type comes at me, my inclination will most likely be to put up my dukes.

[60:04]

And that is exactly the wrong thing to do. To be aggressive back, you know. And what is really needed is to let the pressure out of the pressure cooker. You know, like with food this morning, Just saying to her, okay, I want to understand what your vision is for the avatar that you feel so strongly about. And she did not expect that. Actually, I really don't think she expected that. I think she expected me to say, well, what about my vision? You know, it's every bit as good as yours is probably better. I think we're out of time, right, Alex? Isn't that sad? Yeah, did you have a burning question? Just a really quick one. I was just wondering... Oh, I think, good question. When someone says, well, I'll use the plunge, and then I say, well, you can't use the plunge unless you take a shower, and you can't take a shower because the water turned off.

[61:07]

I think that's like waking up as a big cockroach. Does that make sense? Yeah, I was just curious. It's sort of, you know, I mean, that's a great solution. I'll use the plunge. She reacted well by saying, you're saying I was intelligent. Yeah, I thought that was, I could see someone responding that way. If someone is angry and that's their default, they're likely to take what you say personally. Can I shower in the creek? Absolutely, and I will escort you down there. So let me see a show of hands. How many are delusion types? Okay. Greed. Or aversion? How many don't know? What's the delusion type? A delusion type is, well, we're all deluded. I mean, that's what we learn. But for delusion types, we get an extra big dose.

[62:11]

And, you know, there are times when something's right in front of my face and I just don't track it or I see it as something... really different from what it is. You can talk to my wife there about what delusion is. She has a lot of experience after six years. And I heard one set of explanations or descriptions of the types, like what do you do when you go to a party? So like, you know, if you're a greed type, what do you do? You want to taste all the wines, you want to talk to all the people, and you want to eat all the cake. And if you're a hate type, you think, God, these are a bunch of losers. I'm going to talk to Leslie because she's the only cool person in the place. And if you're a delusion type, what's that? Go ahead. I'm waiting to hear what the delusion type is. Will you tell me, what do you do at a party, Leslie? You don't go to parties. I try not to go to parties. I don't know what to do at a party.

[63:14]

I try to follow this conversation. I try to follow that conversation. I can't. What do you do at a party? Well, I'm an outgoing delusion type, so I just talk. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, and I think my greed part really comes out. So being extroverted, and I think my greed type takes over, and I talk to everybody. So thank you so much. I hope I'll see you all back tomorrow. We'll continue our discussion. And don't forget your questions, those of you I asked to save them, and hopefully time for Q&A. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit SSCC.org.

[64:15]

and click giving.

[64:16]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_89.79