This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. I was remembering recently, I grew up in England, so it was the dark ages in every sense. It rained every day. It was always grey. We couldn't see beyond the end of the street. The street was just red brick roads, red brick houses and a long line. We had boiled vegetables for lunch, boiled vegetables for dinner, boiled vegetables for breakfast. And in those days, the news came to us through a little wireless radio that my parents kept on a shelf in our room. And at 7 o'clock every evening, my father would turn on the radio. And when I was two years old, Suddenly at seven o'clock every night, out would crackle this very scratchy report about a young king who was fleeing for his life.

[01:07]

And every day we would turn on the radio and out would come the story about how this young man was traveling over the highest mountains on earth. And one day, there'd be a plane circling overhead, trying to intercept him. And the next day, he was a day closer to safety. And on the next day, we didn't know what was happening. He disappeared from view. And so we listened from night after night. And finally, after 14 days and nights, we heard that this young leader had arrived in safety in England, or in India, rather. And as Stu was suggesting, this was the young Dalai Lama in 1959, fleeing. Tibet. And both my parents were philosophers and actually specializing in comparative religions. And they knew a lot about Buddhism. And so my father was one of the relatively few people in those days who realized that for the first time in history this great repository of Buddhist wisdom and Tibetan knowledge was accessible to the world.

[02:11]

So he sailed all the way back to India and ask for an audience with His Holiness. And of course, the Dalai Lama, as soon as he arrived in the outside world, was very keen to talk to everybody because he realized it was his first chance to learn about a myriad of things. And he could learn about Western science and bring that to his monks. He could learn about equal rights for women and bring that to his community. He could bring democracy to the Tibetan people. And so he invited anyone who wanted to, to go up and visit him, including my father, And they had a long talk. And at the end of the talk, my father said, oh, your holiness, I've got this little three-year-old boy in Oxford, England, who took a great interest in the story of your flight. And the Dalai Lama's gift, as you all know, has always been to find the common ground between him and whoever he meets, whether it's a 79-year-old grandmother or a three-year-old boy. So then and there,

[03:13]

he found a photograph of himself when he was four years old that he sent to me through my father. And my father brought it back and I put it on my desk. And I can still remember, as a little boy growing up alone, every now and then I'd feel sorry for myself. And I'd think, you know, life can be tough for a little kid in a country that's not really his own and facing all these challenges. I only had to look at that photo of a little boy who was four years old Already on the lion's throne in Lhasa, a ruler of six million Tibetans and spiritual head of 14 million Tibetan Buddhists. Things were put in the spectrum. And that's shortly after my parents moved to California. And of course, I brought the picture with me in for another 25 years. It was always on my desk. And then those in our workshop have heard too much about this already. Everyone in Tassajara knows about these kind of things. Suddenly there was forest fires through the hills of California and reduced everything we owned in the world to ash, including, of course, that photo.

[04:16]

And in some ways, that seemed almost to me the right fate for the photograph, because it was a reminder to me that all material things are flimsy and Vanessa. They don't last. But it also made me think that the values represented in that picture, and the qualities that the Dalai Lama says he's reflecting back that all of us have inside us, if those could be real, those would be with me through any fire until my dying breath, but really the photo wasn't important, but what the photo was pointing towards. And in some ways I feel I lost, I learned more through losing the photo than through acquiring it. So I went to see the Dalai Lama in his home in Darussala first when I was a teenager. And then he started coming, as you all know, to this country in 1979. And I saw him when he first arrived here. And then in the 80s, I was living in New York City and he would come quite often. And in those days, the older of you remember that most people in this country barely knew who the Dalai Lama was.

[05:20]

He seemed like a creature, a figure out of myth or something out of legend, but not a living being. So when he would come to New York City four or five people would show up, mostly Tibetans and sometimes me. And because of that door that he'd opened as soon as Tibet had opened up to the outside world, I went to visit and I've been doing it ever since. But over time, I think what I noticed that all of us do, most of you I'm sure have heard this holiness, is how much he imparts, regardless of your background or religious tradition, just in the tiniest ways. And I remember one day I was driving around Southern California just listening to the radio, and I heard that the Italians had just been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. And very characteristically, when he received the prize, he was in Newport Beach, engaged in a conversation with scientists. And so, in my selfless journalist's way, I thought, why don't I intrude upon him on the busiest day of his life?

[06:20]

And bombard him with questions. So I did. I drove all the way down. And he was staying in a very modest family house. And of course, phone calls and telegrams were arriving from around the world. But the first thing I remember is that as soon as I arrived at the door, he greeted me as he would have greeted everybody in this room, as if I were his oldest friend. And he took me off to a small room in which we would be talking. And as soon as we got to the room, he started... busting around to find a chair in which I would be comfortable. He said, would you like to sit here? Or maybe this would be better for you, or you've got to take order, that would be ideal. Really, for all the world, as if I were the newly crowned laureate, to be was the intrusive journalist. And I was just reading a book last month on my way here, in which the writer said, what is the shallow side of bodhisattva-hood? And the answer was, trying to help others. And that took me back, and I still haven't really figured it out.

[07:22]

But as I understand it, maybe what she meant was if you're trying too hard to gain merit, to acquire brownie points, to conform to somebody's notion, to be seen as a kind person, the motivation will stand in the way of the compassion. And I think she was defining compassion as that instinctive sense, as when... a mother sees a child in the road, she's not thinking about the or the meaning of compassion or she's embracing that because the child is her. There's no division between her and all the children in the neighborhood and that impulse is to protect them. And I feel with this you all know that he exemplifies compassion because he doesn't see any distinction between you and him. Your concern is instantly his concern, as I found in that small example with the chairs. And then we sat down and we began to speak. And needless to say, so many people who are concerned about Tibet or in the Tibetan community were really celebrating and saying, now that the whole world has recognized his holiness and the importance of the Tibetan cause, our problems are behind us.

[08:29]

And my experience of his holiness is that first and foremost, he's a realist. His commitment is not to how he wishes things were, but the way things are. And so what startled me too was that as he began to speak, the very first thing he said was, I really wonder if I've done enough. But he went on, all I can do is every day, step by step, inch by inch, get my best. And in time, as other people start to do that, slowly the world will change and come to its senses, but probably not very, very quickly. My sense of him is that Dalai Lama is a great student of history, as well as of what's going on every moment. When you step into his hotel room, the two things you see are a newspaper opened, because he's digesting all the contents, and a telescope, so that wherever he goes, he can see a different perspective on the world. And as a student of history, I think he's keenly aware. Everything is always changing.

[09:32]

We never know what's coming next. Nothing lasts. And things move aside. He often remembers how there have been times when China was almost obliterated Tibet. There have been other times when Tibet has almost controlled the whole of China. Everything is changing. And I think his sense is that all he can do is to be ready to work with the changes as they come. He can't change the world overnight. But by changing himself sufficiently, when the opportunity is there, then a peaceful Tibet will once again be in the world. And I'm often struck, I sense that two of his closest friends in this incarnation have been Archbishop Tutu and Václav Havel. And many of you may remember Václav Havel was actually in prison in Czechoslovakia and eight weeks later he was unanimously chosen the new president of his country. Desmond Tutu for 62 years couldn't vote in his own homeland and then suddenly apartheid was lifted and he helped to create a new South Africa and I think

[10:34]

His holiness keenly following the world knows that at any moment the unimaginable happens. Bad previously and good, no doubt, in the future. And the third thing that struck me out of that small meeting was at the end of the interview, he grabbed me by the hand and he grabbed everybody by the hand as if physically to reinforce the connection and the lack of division between us. We went to the front door and suddenly, as we were getting, oh, I forgot something. I have to go back. And he went back to the room where we were sitting, and he just turned off the light. And he said, it's such a tiny thing. It doesn't mean anything in itself. But of course, if more and more people across the planet remember more and more often to turn off the light, that's how we'll save the planet. Again, it's incremental. But the cumulative effect is transformation. And I've got to admit, as you can tell, this was 29 years ago. And in this 29 years, probably every day, something has reminded me of the importance of being selfless and the importance of being kind and empowerment, all those things.

[11:43]

And we all know we need to live up to those virtues, but it's really, really difficult. We all know which way the right way is, but that doesn't always make it easier to follow that. But every day in the last 29 years, I remember that thing about turning off the light. five to eight times I've done it because it's so practical and concrete and it takes up so little from me that it's a habit that he planted in me in that small gesture that without any harm or cost to anybody I can keep doing again and again wherever I am in our lives and I think the way he can impart these very everyday practical secular things that any human being is really part of the revolution that he is advancing and of course But the beauty of that example is that most of us think that the Dalai Lama is turning on a light in us in so many ways. But in this case, he was turning on an important light in me by turning one off. And most recently, of course, like many of us, I've enjoyed various adventures with him, but he now comes to Japan every November.

[12:52]

And of course, part of the curiosity of his situation is that almost no Buddhist country in the world would be close to. because they're all too scared of China. And Japan is almost the only Buddhist nation that's economically strong enough to stand up to China and therefore to allow him into his borders. Even when a cricket game is held outside his home in Dar es Sala, the governments in Beijing can intercede to make sure the Dalai Lama can't open a cricket match five minutes from his hut. But he can come to Japan. And when he comes, he's kind enough to allow my wife and me to travel by his side right now for every minute of his working day, from 8.30 in the morning when he comes out of his hotel room to 4.30 in the afternoon when he goes back. And so, of course, it's a wonderful opportunity. We have lunch with him every day and we attend his public events. But he also kindly allows us to sit at all his private meetings with religious leaders and other thinkers, sometimes rebel musicians who want his blessing.

[13:55]

It's a very striking thing. When we meet him outside this hotel room at 8.30 every morning, we go with him and a couple of bodyguards and secretaries and translators down in the elevator. And there are usually dozens or maybe hundreds of people waiting for him. The news has got around the Dalai Lama sometime. And they're waiting in the lobby to receive a blessing or to hand him something or to get a selfie or to ask him a question. And when every six-year-old little girl comes towards him with a ceremonial white scarf, He gives himself to that little girl, and he listens to that little girl as if he were listening to the Buddha. And the following day, if he's giving a talk in Tokyo, he will talk about what he's learned from that little girl. And throughout the eight hours of his day, he never once takes a rest. And quite often his hosts will say, you know, very thoughtfully, your holiness, maybe you just want to be quiet for 15 minutes, or gather your thoughts, or just be still. No, no, no, we must be together. And at the end of the eight hours, I... 22 years younger than he is.

[14:56]

I'm exhausted just watching him go through his day. And I'm always reminded, again, as somebody without a Buddhist practice myself, that every morning, while I'm helping myself to the fourth serving of potatoes at the breakfast buffet and snoring, he's meditating four hours every morning, even on the road. He's waking up at 3.30 in the morning, and before he begins his day, four hours of meditation. And sometimes I think, well, if the busiest man I know can devote himself to four hours of meditation a day, I can probably manage 10% of that, at least. And so really he's laying the foundation whereby he can give absolute attention to everything that comes his way. And one of the striking things, I remember the first time we traveled with him in 2006, we were in Hiroshima. And we were walking up a hill to a little temple which a Tibetan Lama had gainily set up where he had four or five disciples in Japan. And as we were walking up, suddenly a young woman strove forward. And she said, I need to talk to you very aggressively in English.

[16:00]

I think she was probably from China, I'm not sure. And of course, the bodyguards hustled her away. And we went into the temple. And we were sitting there for maybe 10 or 15 minutes. And so in a sort of meditating and just blessing the temple with his presence. And we could hear her shouting outside. And of course I was thinking, well, I'm really worried what's going to happen when we go out of the temple. And when finally we did exit, to my surprise, His Holiness asked his bodyguards to bring the young woman right to him. And he stood just a few inches away from her and he held her hands in his. He looked into her eyes and he said a few words, I think essentially conveying that he had nothing against her and they had much more in common. and she had nothing to fear from him. And really, I don't know if it did any good in that instance, but it surely taught a lesson to everybody who has witnessed to that, that the answer to confrontation is not flight, the dialogue.

[17:05]

Because I know if right now somebody were to stand up and start heckling, my impulse would be to run out of the door. And my second impulse would be to go and hide in that room. But he realizes nothing is ever gained by that. And as probably you know, since he was a very young man, all of you have spoken about is this dialogue. The only way you can come to any resolution is meet something, find where you agree and then use that as a foundation. In 1954, against the overriding, the fears of all these people, you went and spent nine months with Mao Zedong with a view to that. And to this day, I think you really gained from nine months of seeing how China works and talking with Chinese leadership. A few years later, as you all recall, in 2011, there was that devastating tsunami that swept 18,500 people to their deaths in Japan. And as soon as His Holiness heard about that, he wanted to go and just share whatever he could with the people there. But it was deemed to be too dangerous to go at that time, and he was a long way away.

[18:07]

So he waited, and as soon as he made his next trip to Japan, in November of that year, he made what he called a pilgrimage up to the stricken place. He and a small group of us stayed in the city of Sendai. And as we were driving through this area, and this was eight months after the tsunami, it was really like seeing pictures of Hiroshima after the atomic bomb. Just rubble. And you'd see the sockets of houses with a solitary chair in them, capsized boats, cars overturned. The whole world had been turned upside down. It's starting to even witness that. And we came to this little village called Ishinomaki. and I know my wife was telling some friends about this at dinner last night, where 3,000 people had lost their lives. And there was nothing there but debris, and one temple that miraculously could survive up against a cliff, and a few gravestones tilting crazily in front of the temple. And as we pulled up, maybe five, six hundred people had gathered along the side of the road, behind ropes.

[19:11]

And I think just to express their gratitude that this Eminence had come to share his presence with them. Mostly women. They didn't speak much English, but as soon as the car stopped, His Holiness got out, and he went over to the people who were standing there. And some of them were sobbing, and some of them were just saying, thank you, thank you, in a very humble way that you see in Japan. And he held sob to his chest, and he blessed others, and he looked into the eyes of others, and he touched the head, so he did what he could. And then he started giving advice, and he said, you've gone through something unimaginable, and there should never be such suffering in the world. But the best way that you can honor the people you've lost is by making something constructive, by looking to the future. You can't change what's happening. You can change at any moment what will happen. And all the ones that you lost were dreaming of a prosperous community. But please set your mind on creating that. Remember how Japan humbled the world by rebuilding itself after World War II.

[20:16]

Please try to do that with your community. And so it's maybe the kind of advice you would expect from many a wise soul, but it was tonic to hear. And what the people standing along the road didn't notice was that when His Holiness turned around, he took off his glasses and he wiped away a tear. And I think that's what really stayed with with my wife for me, which was that he had the clarity to offer exactly the right logical words about how to proceed forwards after calamity. But of course he had the humanity to absolutely feel everything that those people were suffering, and not to imagine that he should be entirely detached. And he said, I think of him as a doctor of the mind, but a doctor with the wisdom to actually feel the sorrow of what he's doing, even as he's performing these important operations. And then he walked into the temple and there were a few little boys lined up in school uniform shaking his hand gratefully in the sunshine.

[21:16]

And my wife pointed out that they were all orphans now. That's why they've been chosen to stand there. And he went and sat next to the altar in the temple. And by his side there were about 50 little boxes, green and pink and orange, neatly wrapped. My wife explained to me that all those, each one can take the ashes of some person who died. And by Japanese tradition, they keep those in the temple, and then the surviving family member comes and takes it in cases of household water. In these cases, presumably, there were no surviving enemies. The whole family had been wiped out, so those ashes would remain forever unclaimed in the temple. And as he began to speak, the Dalai Lala said, well, of course I can't begin to understand or feel that for everything we've been through. But he remembered at that moment how one day when he was 24 in his hometown of Lhasa, he had been told he had to leave the country that night. And if he didn't, he would be killed and that would be destroyed.

[22:18]

And so he said, I didn't have time to say goodbye to my friends. I wasn't able to even to take my dog with me. I just have to go then and there. And he said that when he finally completed his flight across the mountains and arrived in India, the first thing he heard was that many of his friends were no longer alike, the ones he'd not seen two weeks previously. But when I was writing a book about Patelians, one of the things that most moved me, okay, I may have said before in this space, is that I also heard as soon as he arrived in India, he turned to his little brother who had accompanied him on the flight. And his first words to his brother, were, now we are free. Which is an extraordinary thing for me to conceive of. He just lost his homeland. He's just lost people he was born to rule. He's just lost the destiny he imagined he had. But instantly, he was thinking of the future. He was not thinking of the loss, but he was thinking of the things he could do much more easily now he's out in the world.

[23:23]

He never would have been able to start in that time. I miss the tradition and the formalism about that. And in fact, he has done all of those things in the last 59 years and emancipated his community in so many ways that it would have been a part of him to do. And so again, I'm always moved by the fact that he not only knows what the right response to the situation is, but can actually act it out, even while always insisting on his humanity. And as I say, if ever you compliment the Dalai Lama, he'll always say, I'm exactly the same as you. So if you see something worth admiration in me, that's in yourself. And you will have the freedom at any moment to activate or to encourage it. I need to go on for quite a long time. But probably since we have to stop at 9.20, why don't I stop there? And if you have questions or you have comments, or not just about His Holiness, but anything else, yes?

[24:24]

He sounds wonderful. But in the past, wasn't Tibet a feudal theocracy where women had zero say? Yes, exactly. I think you heard that. In the past, Tibet was a feudal theocracy where women had little say. And that's exactly the reason why he saw, in fact, losing in Tibet as a possible gain and the liberation from all those things. At least the first person always discussed that it was extremely hierarchical. Tibetans were fighting among themselves a great deal. And whenever I have asked him, and anybody asked him, well, what caused this terrible recent history of Tibet, he said we were too isolated. So they didn't have enough friends in the rest of the world, and they weren't living out as a country the interconnectedness that's at the heart of his vision. And also, as you say, they had no shortage of problems. And that's why very soon after he arrived in India, One of the first things he's done is to allow women to become abbots that they never could before, to allow nuns to practice monastic debating that they never could before, and just as he suggests, to see that he can now do all kinds of things that work.

[25:39]

By implementing democracy, he's really trying to cut through those feudal divisions. of the past. I mean, it's hard to remember that while he was 14 years old in the Patala Palace, he was witness to a civil war happening right outside him in which his own region was imprisoned. I mean, all these extraordinary conflicts were playing around him. So as a little boy, he learned from watching the newsreels about what was going on in World War II and elsewhere, but he was also getting a crash course in realpolitik by seeing what was happening in Tibet. And I think he also would have sensed, though he wouldn't have said, that in exile, he's much more of a unifying figure. And Tibet, in certain ways, is more unified, thanks to that common cause, than previously when the people of East Tibet were kind of at war with the people of Central Tibet, although all of them were joined in their reverence for his holiness. I wasn't aware of that conflict. So many conflicts. And of course, the silence now is Tibet's conflicts, like everyone's conflicts, have played out across the world. So we're aware of certain divisions that have come up in tradition.

[26:43]

There are two There are now two Panchen Lamas because China has designated one little boy as a Panchen Lama and the Tibetans have chosen their own. And as you know, I'm sure the Dalai Lama, since 1969, has said there won't be another Dalai Lama because he knows as soon as he dies, Beijing will choose some son of a party member and say this is the new 15th Dalai Lama. And although most people... won't acknowledge the authority of that Dalai Lama, but 1.3 billion people will, and that's the significant number. So I think he's been aware for 49 years now of the need to pass on a spiritual transmission, but not call it Dalai Lama. And so I think people, somebody else, will be the spiritual leader they can listen to as they previously have for the Dalai Lama. And he often says in his practical way of this, The Dalai Lama institution serves a great function for 350 years. It's outdated, Matt. Get rid of it. Did I see a hand up there?

[27:43]

Yeah. One of the remarkable things that's come out of the Dalai Lama leaving Tibet is his dialogue with science, which has completely transformed the way scientists view Buddhism, mindfulness. We've all been the beneficiaries of that. I want you to say something about your travels with him if you have, when he's been interacting with scientists. And just share some experience about it. Well, you're absolutely right. I would say that's his greatest delight in life. And he would probably regard that as one of his great achievements. Many of the books that come out under his name are not really from his pen. But one of the recent ones that he spent a lot of time on was called Beyond Religion. And as many of you know, he's devoted himself a lot to what he calls secular ethics. In other words, was absolutely universal. Because he's seen that religion, in certain cases, would make a great problem, but he knows that it's human beings, we all face the same challenges.

[28:46]

And so what he's most interested in is anything that can help every human being in every culture. And so in that regard, science, because it's entirely empirical, and because it's about things as universal as the law of gravity, that's his first commitment, because it's not specific to Buddhism or to Tibet, but it's universal. And so, as you suggested, when Mary was saying it to us yesterday, the last 30 years, all the experiments have been conducted in more and more universities, from Madison to Berkeley to Stanford, about how meditation can actually increase compassion, increase physical health, increase capacity to process information. It's an unarguable good. I was talking to our group this afternoon about how Now that science has told us more about physical health, more and more of us are vegetarian or go to the health club or do things that we know will help our body. Now there are all these things we can do that help our mind, which meditation is a prime example. So I think he's particularly happy about that because it's so non-denominational, as it were.

[29:53]

And it doesn't, it lies beyond, we were talking about this at dinner, it lies beyond the domain of argument if the scientific proof is there. And I once asked him, Because, of course, Tibetan Buddhism is saturated in rites that to us don't always seem very scientific. He'll often receive advice from an oracle. They throw dice to make certain decisions, and he does that too. And I said to him, well, you always speak about reason and logic and science. What's with all this? And he looked at me with a twinkle in his eye, of course, and he said, Buddhist science. And at first I thought, hmm, OK, that's an easy answer. But then I thought about it more and more, and I think he's aware that in this 300 years of isolation, Tibet was developing certain understandings that are still far beyond ours. And he always will say, as you know, the West has developed in material science, a huge amount, and Tibet wants to learn about everything that the West has learned. Meanwhile, the West can learn about all Tibet has learned in terms of inner science, the science of mind, the psychological science, which in some ways

[31:00]

that Tibet's unusual isolation really, really helped. And so when you said Buddhist science, I was thinking in those days that if I were to take an iPhone to rural Tibet and show it to somebody there, it's magic, unbelievable. But it's only because that's a technology they don't happen to have yet. So what they assume to be magic is just a technology that we have and they don't. And conversely, When the Dalai Lama gets certain understandings from consulting an oracle, I am inclined to say magic, superstition, just because it's something I don't understand. In fact, it's as scientific as the creation of a loaded or an iPhone. And so I think to expand upon your question, one of his great delights in life is to realize that for the first time ever, Tibet can learn from scientists, but also from rabbis and imams and popes, and also the rest of the world can learn and everything that has been developing for centuries. And I also remember how, when I was born even, nobody in England or California probably could dream of listening to a Lama of any kind.

[32:08]

And now the most of us in this world are lucky enough to hear the Dalai Lama or any number of wise Tibetan teachers and actually teachers from many other traditions. So I think sometimes we overlook this great bounty that we're living in a world where we can learn almost everywhere. I wanted to ask about the teaching, the Dalai Lama teaching. And, of course, it must be vast, as Tibetan Buddhist teaching is. From your perspective, is there a particular emphasis, like you were talking earlier about this sense of realized connection, connecting with others? Is that a central teaching? Is there a central teaching, could you say? I'm also thinking in our tradition, the Zen tradition, we make a lot of emptiness. And the other side of emptiness is the interconnectedness of everything.

[33:08]

And I don't know where the Dalai Lama lands with that. Well, I'm glad of the second part of that question, because I was about to say, again, most people here are better qualified than I am. But exactly what you said was what I was about to say. I would say Shunyata. And when he's asked to describe emptiness, he says, empty of independence. In other words, interconnectedness, as you said. You probably know Shantideva, and he's one of the teachers that he really tends to. And certainly the Indian teacher came to Tibet, I think, are the ones that we... he goes back to them again. And of course he always stresses that he's had 24 teachers himself, and it's very touching. When he's giving a teaching on a philosophical text to a group of monks, he will ask them to start something, and say, you know what is your understanding. In those ways, I think, obviously we all know, he's a great master of thoughtful beings, and of learning exactly what an audience needs, and how to speak to any

[34:14]

any particular audience. I remember the first time we came to the United States in 79, one of the first places he arrived was Harville. And he was rubbing his hands with glee and anticipation and thinking, imagining now I can engage in a really good philosophical discussion with some of the great philosophers of the Western tradition. So he gave this talk, which even in translation I don't think a single person could follow except the professional philosophers who was at such a high level that it might have been a philosophical conference rather than a public address. And so it's been interesting to me to see over the years how he's realized how to speak to a general audience, he really needs to speak in very simple practical terms. But as soon as he gets a chance to put professional scientists or professional philosophers, he will rise to the core depths and heights. And things like South and North South, I think, the light, I think I've got the Western views on that. Or even, I think... What I noticed when it comes to Japan, a bit in the French tradition, is that, of course, his tradition is so in love with analytical philosophy, and I don't think that's always the core of them, right?

[35:21]

So I sometimes feel like speaking different languages a bit. There's two cook machines. And one's a Tibetan and the other's a Zen Coke machine. And the Tibetan Coke machine has clear glass and you put your quarter in and you can watch it go all the way down and then you get the Coke. And the Zen Coke machine is opaque and you put your quarter in and then you wait. Perfect, nothing that needs to be said beyond that. Yes, please. You mentioned Vakval Pavel and Desmond Tutu and Dalai Lama in the same sentence. I wonder if there are people in the younger generation that maybe are inspired in a similar sort of way in your world travels and such that you would maybe point to it as somebody that we should keep our eyes on.

[36:24]

Good question. Partly, because the next person I was going to mention, the most inspiring film I've seen in many years was the recent documentary on Fred Francis. And what struck me in that is, word for word, anything he said in that film, that Dalai Lama would have said. And to see him going to, you know, washing the feet of an Ethiopian mother and going into the refugee camps to offer just his presence to people who have distraught and have lost everything is very moving. But, of course, Pope Francis is 81. And the other person I've spoken about in this fall before, from whom I really learned to ask, especially in his own tradition, I think, was Leonard Cohen, who's died. That's 83. But I think there's no shortage of inspiring presences in every tradition. My particular scripture happens to be literature, and I think it's a golden age of writing. There were more great writers than ever before, partly because we're hearing the voices of so many other different places. And if somebody like myself, who only reads English, is suddenly hearing about Afghanistan and Nigeria and Haiti and Russia and

[37:32]

place that I never would have been able to in earlier generations. I know a lot of people are very concerned about the state of the world, particularly because they're confused by the recent election. But I recently wrote a piece, Why I'm an Optimist, and I think that's partly because although there is this backlash and we're seeing more and more fascist totalitarian and divisive movements around the world, I feel the world is moving in very positive direction. And China and India, which represent 2.5 billion people, every day their lives are getting better for them. So many people have been lifted out of poverty in the last 30 years. And I think because of listening to His Holiness talk about cycles, when I'm a little dispersed about who's in the White House right now, I remember how for eight years we had one of the most shiningly global, clear-headed, visionary leaders that anyone could have. And so I think that's cyclical. It wears itself. I'm sorry I'm not giving you any names, but I think there are plenty of them.

[38:35]

How do you see that taking in the role of women? Because all the people you're talking about are men. Yes, thank you. Well, that too has changed my lifestyle entirely for the better, I'd say. And so I love the fact that I'm a traveler. And the main thing that you learn as a traveler is you want to listen rather than to lecture. And that's one thing every man can learn from a woman, I feel. In other words, the virtues that I think are more and more in evidence across the world are often ones, whether it's compassion or attentiveness, that many of us associate more with mothers than fathers. And I'm delighted that we're now hearing from every side, as I think you were saying. just to make breakfast, that just everything has been broken. Yes? Do you see yourself in any way like a pilgrim?

[39:41]

And second part, if not or if you do, what would be your ultimate pilgrim? Oh, well, I hope we're going to be talking about this around work job. I suppose, as with all of us, my whole life is a pilgrimage towards something that will never be resolved, I hope. And in so far as a pilgrim is somebody who's travelling with questions, that seems to be the way that a traveller should be rather than with explanations or with answers that he wants to share what will inflict upon the people he's thinking. But I'm always moved how when the Dalai Lama uses pilgrimage, it's often not when he's going about a religious past so much as a human past. And that's why going to visit the suffering of the tsunami he called the pilgrimage, when he talks to other religious leaders, they'll call it an interfaith conference or whatever. So I suppose it's a place where we're not necessarily wearing designations or robes, but we're just humans trying to better understand the human condition.

[40:43]

And I wish I could think of some women you know, off the top of my head to answer your question. If it's now an hour, 10 minutes o'clock my bedtime. So I lay it around a little bit, all right, you are willing. Yes. [...] And maybe we'll reveal this one at the time. He shares that birthday, of course, with George W. Bush. And, you know, one of the striking things about the Dalai Lama is it's always unexpected. We all know who he is, and we all know what he is. And he is so deeply grounded. When I read a transcript of what he said to my father in 1959, when he had the Dalai Lama, I was 24. All the examples are different from right now, but, of course, every sentiment is identical. and always will be to what he says tomorrow and yesterday. But the way he responds to questions always takes me by surprise.

[41:52]

And I remember once we were in Okinawa, and the group of journalists, and somebody asked him, who's the single, you know, your holiness, you've had this fancy view in history for 59 years, who is the single most impressive leader you ever met? And he instantly said, Ran Tse-ton. The same person who will seem to our reading has destroyed Tibet. And I remember I was once traveling with him in a bullet train in Japan, and I said, I'd just been reading a book of Chinese history, and I said something about Mao Zedong being blind or prejudiced, and grabbed me by the hand. He said, never say anything against Mao Zedong. You can criticize the actions and the words, but never the map. And he really, not only often states that, but he really holds that principle. So it was striking. He said, Mao Zedong had great confidence. He initially had a good vision. And then... The interviewers were not satisfied with that answer. So they said, OK, forget about Marcy Tone. Who's the other leader in your 59 years who's really interested in you? And he said, George O'Neill Bush. And he said, I feel he's a really sincere person, deeply religious, trying to be kind.

[42:55]

And one way or another, the two of them formed a real kinship. And one of the many paradoxes of the Barack Obama's public life is that the Republican Party did much more for him than the Democratic Party. And so it's a nice way of just shaking us out of some of our assumptions. Of course, George Bush's, I think, first cousin, Elsie Walker, is one of the Dalai Dalai's most loyal and steadfast followers, I guess, for more than 50 years and took pains to introduce him to the Bush family early on. But... Nothing goes the way you expect of him. At the same Okinawa conference, of course, most people in Okinawa are very disturbed by the American military presence, and so they were all hoping to get a good quotation from the Dalai Lama saying, shouldn't we be rid of these military bases? He said, no, never, never, never. If you get rid of these military bases, you will be at the mercy of all these other forces. In other words, he realized that the U.S. military left, North Korea is across the, not many miles away, China is right there, that actually,

[43:57]

the removal of bases would be conducive to warp rather than Peeps. And so, again, I saw all that he's experienced in the very real world. He thought this through many stages beyond people like me, who were reflexively assuming a military base is an instrument of warp rather than an instrument of peace. And that's part of the light of being with him, which is that his responses... I, in my narrow way, would say counterintuitive, but in fact, it's just because he's much more rigorous in his thought, and he's not satisfied with the obvious answer, but he's thinking through all the ramifications. So that's a long way from birthdays. But yeah, thank you for reminding us. Our workshop happened to begin on, on his birthday. 18th birthday. Thank you so much for being here.

[44:59]

Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, Visit sfzc.org and click Giving.

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