This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. You hear me? You hear me? Okay? Everybody? In the back? In the front? Well, all day I've been talking about Suzuki Roshi's teaching, four hours, and I got a little tired. But I still have enough for this talk. So we've had a good time in our seminar, I guess you'd call it, talking about many things. according to Suzuki Roshi's teaching.

[01:01]

I don't know how many of you are familiar with our original teacher, Suzuki Roshi, who came from Japan in 1959 and was here until 1971 when he left this earth, so to speak. And I studied with him for seven years, and I enjoy talking about his teaching, whether I'm accurate or not. But I think I am. And so tonight, I'm going to comment on one of his talks. And this talk I've talked about many times, and most of the older students know this talk. but it doesn't matter. Because every time you hear it, it's a different talk.

[02:05]

This is one of the characteristics of Suzuki Roshi's talks. He didn't write anything. He just spoke. And then his disciples edited his talks and published them in his books. So... This talk, you know, he didn't speak after 1971. And so his talks are somewhat dated in a way because when people talk about Dharma, they seem to think that they're advancing somewhat. But his old talks, the older his talks, The earlier his talks, the better they are, I think. Because when he came from Japan, he just said what was in his mind, which he always did, of course.

[03:11]

But because he didn't know us so well, he just gave us something from his beginner's mind. And that's what he's always talking about, beginner's mind, fresh mind, mind that has no preconceptions. The mind that... is totally open and unconditioned. Unconditioned by bias and incompleteness and delusory thinking. So, a beginner's mind, which I'm not going to talk about, is a mind that is totally open. without preconceptions and his response quickly to things like a cat waiting for a mouse to come out of the hole.

[04:14]

The mouse is down there by the baseboard and the cat is patiently waiting. Cats are really good at that. And then when the cat comes out, I mean, when the mouse comes out, boom, the cat is there because his mind is totally open, not even thinking. So his response is immediate and unconditioned and empty and works perfectly. Suzuki Roshi also talking about the frog. All the old students know about the frog. The frog is sitting on the rock over this nice clear pool. And every once in a while he blinks, but he doesn't move. And then when the fly comes buzzing by, as soon as the fly gets just to the right place.

[05:23]

The frog doesn't move, but his tongue goes, catches the fly. So this is beginner's mind, open mind, without opinions, just open and ready for anything. And if the frog likes to fly, they go, if he doesn't like it, they go, So he has his yes and his no. So, Suzuki Roshi, back there in the 60s, there were all kinds of food experiments, I guess you'd call it. The brown rice eaters, the mucusless diet eaters,

[06:25]

the Zen what do you call it yes, microbiotics and a few others and everyone was introducing their versions of what's the right thing to eat so Suzuki Roshi was brought up on white rice and as we know or think we know Brown rice is much more wholesome in many ways. It's heavier. Japanese people prize the whiteness of white rice. The whiter it is, the more desirable. And there's so many different varieties of rice in Japan. But the whiter the rice, the really white rice is desirable. And for us, it's the exact opposite. At that time, the brown rice was desirable.

[07:32]

So we cooked it all the time. And Suzuki Roshi had to eat it. We say, some of us say, that's what killed him. Maybe. No. Anyway. So, that's the introduction to How do you like Zazen? I think it may be better to ask, how do you like brown rice? Zazen is too big a topic. Brown rice is just right for a topic. Actually, there's not much difference. When you eat brown rice, you have to chew it. And unless you chew it, it is difficult to swallow. When you chew it very well, your mouth becomes part of the kitchen. And actually the brown rice becomes more and more tasty.

[08:32]

He says your mouth becomes part of the kitchen. What he meant to say was a monk's mouth is like an oven. And whatever goes into it gets digested. Without the monk... Whatever is served to the monk, the monk eats and doesn't question it. I remember one time, Karagiri Roshi and I and Suzuki Roshi were in the eating dinner, I think it was, in the Page Street dining room. And they served adugi beans. which I don't particularly like. They color the rice. So I was eating around them.

[09:40]

And Suzuki Roshi said something like, are you going to finish your dookie beans? And I said, no, I don't want to finish them. And he said, karagiri will eat them. And he put the plate in front of karagiri. And kind of Jerry ate them. The monk's mouth is like an oven, and whatever goes into it is okay. Non-discrimination. So I was guilty of discriminating, which I often am, with food. But it's not good then. So when you eat it, you chew it, and as you chew it, this flavor comes out, and it's very tasty. So when you chew it very well, and so forth.

[10:45]

So he says, when we digest food completely, what will become of it? Where does it go? What happens to it? it will be transformed, changing its chemical nature and will permeate our whole body. In the process, it dies within our body. To eat and digest food is natural to us as we are always changing. The organic process is called emptiness. The reason we call it emptiness is that it has no special form it has some form but that form is not permanent while it is changing it carries on our life energy so this is interesting we were talking in our I was talking in our talk today about birth and death

[11:57]

we usually use the terms life and death as if life is the opposite of death. And so that creates a lot of confusion in our mind. We become confused because we think that death and life are opposites. But actually, birth and death are more opposite each other because they're both in dynamic activity. Whereas life... contains both life is like the coin birth is on one side and death is on the other so birth and death are fighting it out not life and death because when something dies as he's talking about brown rice has a form and the brown rice says don't put that in your mouth I'm going to die if you do But the brown rice gets chewed, gets digested, and as it goes down, it changes its chemical nature and becomes part of our... It gives us energy.

[13:15]

It exchanges its form for a different form and suffuses our body with its energy. So this is how... birth and death work. We say in Buddhism, no birth, no death. Simply appearance and disappearance and the constant changing of our forms. So when we digest food completely, what will become of it? It will be transformed, changing its chemical nature and will permeate our whole body. In the process, it dies within our body. To eat and digest food is natural to us as we are always changing along with everything else. This organic process is called emptiness.

[14:19]

Emptiness has maybe 20 meanings, 18 to 20 meanings in Buddha Dharma. The meaning that's most important for us is the meaning of interdependence. We talk about it all the time. Transformations. This is the world of constant transformations. That's what it's called, saha. Constant transformations. There's nothing that stays what it is completely, except momentarily. So everything is continuously being born and die, so to speak. Except that if we stop using those terms, we can see what's actually happening. Everything is turning into everything else. So there's nothing we can do except go along with nature.

[15:25]

when we give ourselves over to nature, we don't have a problem. So, to eat and digest food is natural to us as we are always changing. This process is called emptiness. The reason we call it emptiness is that it has no special form. It has some form, but that form is not permanent. While it is changing, it carries on our life energy. And we, as we change, carry on the life energy of our surroundings. Everything is doing the same thing. We know that we are empty and also that this earth is empty, meaning everything depends on everything else. The forms are not permanent. You may wonder, what is this universe? But this universe has no limit.

[16:28]

Emptiness is not something you can understand through a space trip. Well, that's his way of saying it's not the sky. Emptiness can be understood when you are perfectly involved in chewing rice. This is actual emptiness. The most important point is to establish yourself in a true sense without establishing yourself in delusion. And yet, we cannot live or practice without delusion. Delusion is necessary. But delusion is not something on which you can establish yourself. It is like a step-letter. Without it, you can't climb up. But you don't stay on the step-letter. With this confidence, you can continue to study our way. That is what I say. Don't run away. Stick to me. I don't mean stick to me.

[17:29]

I mean stick with yourself, not with delusion. So what is delusion? Delusion is our topsy-turvy, so to speak, understanding that we think there's a self where there is no self. We think that... We'll live forever even if we don't. And we think that what is true is not true. We think that what is not true is true. So there are many other ways to express this. But delusion is important because otherwise we wouldn't enjoy our life. Enjoying our life is... due to our delusion. But true joy is not delusion. True joy is through realizing the oneness of our true nature, that we are the universe.

[18:40]

So we have cosmic life, which we don't pay much attention to, because we think that the sky is over there. The planets are all out there. But from a spaceship, you look down and you see, oh, this is one of those planets. So delusion means being self-centered, basically. Enlightenment is letting go of our self-centeredness in a simple way. You want to be enlightened? Let go of your delusional self-centeredness. That's all. It's very simple. So Suzuki Yoshin said, he used to say, it's not so hard to be enlightened. Okay, get enlightened. That's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. But that's not the goal. The goal is to find your true self and settle on your true self in the universe.

[19:46]

because everyone is looking for their true place in the universe. We are cosmic beings, as well as these small little people running around the earth in delusion. But it's important. Delusion is important. We don't eliminate it, but we use it instead of it using us. So sometimes I say, I may be a delusion. You may overestimate me. Oh, he is a good teacher. That is already a kind of delusion. I'm your friend. I'm just practicing with you as your friend who has many step letters. So, you know, he treats each person according to who they are instead of having...

[20:49]

some plan of how you deal with your students. You don't know anything. When you meet your student, your mind is empty. For a teacher, a good teacher, your mind has nothing in it. You are beginner's mind. And when the teacher faces a student in a private meeting, the teacher has nothing at all in their mind. should not, and then receives whatever is coming from the student with pure receptivity. Otherwise, what you think is a bias. So we don't realize how biased we all are. Suzuki Roshi talked about the Tambakban Khan. a Japanese term, which means the board-carrying fellow.

[21:53]

He carries a big board on his shoulder, and he can see over this way, but he can't see over that way because of what he's carrying around his bias, his board. So to actually be able to see everything as it really is is to wake up. So he says, we should not be disappointed with a bad teacher. People often run around going all over the place looking for the right teacher. And so they look at the various teachers and say, well, this one has this flaw and that one has that flaw and this one's not so good and so forth. They don't realize that the student makes the teacher. You know, we shouldn't be disappointed with a bad teacher or with a bad student.

[23:00]

You know, if a bad student and a bad teacher strive for the truth, something real will be established. That's our Zazen. We must continue to practice Zazen and continue to chew brown rice. eventually we will accomplish something. So he's a very humble person. He doesn't say, I am a good teacher and you're a bad student, but I'll make you into a good student because I'm such a good teacher. You should run away from that one. We're both bad. I'm bad and you're bad. Let's do something together. Let's make it work. That's how you work with a student. Suzuki Roshi said, the bad student, he talked about the four horses which comes from the Nirvana Sutra. The best horse runs as fast as he can just seeing the whip out of the corner of his eye.

[24:04]

The second horse runs when he feels the whip on his behind. The third horse runs when he feels the whip kind of digging into his flesh. And the fourth horse can hardly run. There's no way to move him. Almost no way to move him. And he says, which horse do you think is the best horse? He says, Buddha's compassion goes out to the worst horse, so to speak. Bad teacher. bad student. In some way, the teacher has to identify with the student, not stand up as the pillar of virtue, but to get into it with the student and not feel that you're rising above.

[25:08]

We're all deluded. I'm not deluded. I'm not enlightened. up against your delusion the worst horse is also enlightened and deluded the teacher is also enlightened and deluded so this is called skillful means of the teacher but it's not a trick So there's a lot in here that he's talking about. So he's talking to his students, you know, in an intimate way. And so it goes from one thing to another. But it all actually adds up to the same thing. So, you know, I'm wide awake.

[26:16]

But that's enough. And I know you all want to go to bed, including me. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfzc.org and click Giving.

[26:54]

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