Good evening. So I hope you all read on the banner that I will be away next week. I'm going to drive down to L.A. on Tuesday to celebrate my daughter's 31st birthday. It's almost impossible to imagine that that's true. So I'll be back the following week, following Sunday. Also, I just wanted to mention again that I'll be gone for a couple of months later this summer for August and September. And Kakuan, our very own Guy, who's been handling the archives of the recordings from our class, thought that it might be possible that you would all want to look at a few of those older recordings and have conversation together about whatever topics seem to be most interesting to you. So we have time to talk about that and see if that's a good idea. And if those of you would like to come and talk with each other and You know, there are a number of possibilities of things you could look at together.

[01:10]

There's the Middle Way teachings. There's the Mind Only teachings. There's Buddha's Awakening, the Four Noble Truths, any of those things that we've gone through over the years. There are some videos that you could look at, part of those or whatever you wanted to do. So Kakuan is not here this evening, but he'll be back the next couple of weeks. And so we can talk about that. at that time. Okay. For tonight, I have been, unlike last week, which was a talk about not being too excited, this week I actually was pretty excited about Suzuki Roshi's talk, which has to do with the practice of right effort. Right effort. I think you probably all remember that right effort appears in the Buddha's first sermon. the first turning of the wheel of the law, in which he says to his monks, Oh monks, there are these two extremes that ought not to be cultivated by one who has gone forth.

[02:14]

Which two? There is devotion to the pursuit of pleasure and sensual desires. That's one extreme. And there is devotion to self-mortification. That's the other extreme. So asceticism. The middle way discovered by the perfect one avoids both of these extremes. It gives vision, gives knowledge and leads to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to nirvana. And what is the middle way? It is this noble eightfold path. That is to say, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. So right effort is right there in the eightfold path of the Buddha's first sermon. And it's the only of the folds that actually applies equally to all of them, all the other ones. It applies to our views, a balanced view. It applies to our intentions, to our conduct, to our meditation.

[03:16]

And it applies to our attention to fine details, which is said to be the hallmark of Soto Zen. In Japanese, there's a term called memitsu no kafu, meaning attention to fine detail. So right effort means... attention to fine detail as a Soto Zen practitioner. Suzuki Rishi says that right effort is the most important point in our practice. Now, he does say that many times, that this is the most important point, and each time it's different, it's a different point. But in this case, right effort is the most important point. He then adds that right effort means that your effort is pointed in the right direction. And so obviously rowing with all of your might upstream when your home is downstream is not right effort. And yet there are times, as I'm sure all of you know, and as I certainly know, when you make a really big effort, but you're not so sure if you're going the right way or not.

[04:17]

So this teaching from Suzuki Roshi is that right effort in practice is the effort directed from achievement to non-achievement. Sort of surprised me. The effort is from achievement to non-achievement. And he says that usually when people do something, they want a result that they can be proud of and that will make other people proud of them as well. That's familiar. So this is one of the extremes to be avoided, wanting to get something out of our effort. And then on the other hand, maybe you can remember this Green Gulch T-shirt that we sold for many years in the office. There was a picture on the shirt of a farmer. with a hoe. And then across the top it said, working hard, accomplishing nothing. Working hard, accomplishing nothing. Now the problem was and is that we have been very proud of that t-shirt and of seeing ourselves as these kind of carefree workers, giving it our all in exchange for the satisfaction of not getting anything out of it for ourselves.

[05:21]

So I certainly, uh, kind of wanting to be seen by people who aren't trying to get anything out of it, that those are the kind of people we are, almost a bit like selfless, not wanting money or fame or any of those other things. So that's the other extreme to be avoided, wanting to get nothing out of it. So these are the two extremes. I don't want to get anything out of it, and I want to get a lot out of it. So these are both not the direction for right effort. What is recommended by this teaching is to rid ourselves of whatever is extra in our effort. And this extra has to do with that very feeling of pride, of being proud, whether for having gotten something from our effort or from not having gotten something from our effort. In both cases, there's pride there. And it's this building up of pride in ourselves is the very source of our suffering. You know, so... The source of our suffering is this idea of the solidity of this non-existent phenomenon called a self.

[06:25]

And by focusing on pride, it can give us a chance to see just who it is that we think is deserving of some special recognition for their efforts. And the other case, which is a very good example I've experienced recently myself, is one way to see this falsely imagined self is to be wrongly accused. you know, maybe of not making enough of an effort or so on, or of doing something that, you know, is not good for the community. So Karina and I were in the dining room, and we were... On Sundays, there's no food in the evening, so we have this big buffet at noon, and we all take home some food. And so we were taking home some food for someone else who was away, and then we had our own things, and we get these containers to put our food in. So we had... big stack of containers, and one of the people here said that, you know, if you take a lot of food, then the people who come a little later aren't going to get any. And Karina and I were both, like, totally embarrassed. It's like, well, actually, this isn't all for us.

[07:28]

You know, we're trying to kind of backpedal and explain ourselves. But I thought, ah, here it is. You know, there's this self. I didn't do that. I didn't do anything wrong. So that's a really good way to catch yourself, is if someone accuses you of something that you don't think you did. It's a little harder if you did do it. That's just embarrassing. So Roshi, Zika Roshi says that this point about not adding anything extra to our effort is very, very important. But usually we are not so subtle in our thinking, not subtle enough. about ourselves to realize it and so we go off in the wrong direction. He then says it's also because we're all making the same mistake that we don't realize it. We all celebrate, you know, we want to celebrate each other's accomplishments and we want to kind of, you know, whisper about people's failures and so on. We have these scales of value that we use with each other and that have been used on us since we were very young, you know, getting good grades and getting a good job doing all those things.

[08:30]

or should be the result of making a good effort, right? So this is really especially concerning in the Buddha Sangha where this kind of a bad effort has a name. It's called either you're dharma ridden or you're practice ridden. It's something you could be accused of around Zen Center. Oh, he's dharma ridden, you know? So one of the forms of being dharma or practice ridden is this extreme effort that some very sincere students make to purify themselves. they think of themselves as impure. And then they strive to make this impure self pure. But it's that kind of thinking which in itself is dualistic. Me over here, impure, and then me over there, sometime later, pure. Dualistic, both in terms of time and in terms of something changing. This person being some other person in the future. So Roshi says that what we mean by purity in our Dharma study is that things as they are, things as they are.

[09:33]

So this is one of the most familiar ways that I have seen students torment themselves in the practice, is this idea of trying to become pure. You know, and oftentimes they'll say to me, you know, I just, I don't do very good zazen, my zazen isn't very good, or my practice isn't good enough, and I'm not good enough, and so on and so forth. I even asked a classroom one time of students, I forget what we were studying, but I asked them, you know, how many of you actually like yourselves? I think we were talking about the self, you know, the idea of it being imaginary. I said, how many of you like that self that you're imagining? And there was just one young man in the back who raised his hand and said, oh, okay, you know, and no one else did. And I don't know if they were just being shy or whatever, but I thought it was kind of telling. how few people actually have a very warm or high regard for themselves. But still, that's still wrong direction. Thinking high or low of yourself is not the right direction.

[10:37]

There's no self. I often wonder who it is, you know, when people think or they say, I'm not good enough, or I think they're better than me. They're often thinking about somebody else who thinks, you know, they think that they're better than them. And then having talked to those people as well, they don't think they're any good either. And they think someone else is better than them. And so at some point, I'm kind of wondering, like, who is it that would be good enough for all of us to think that, you know, wouldn't it be nice if we were like them? I don't know that there's any such person. And how might we think that? Or how long might we think that? How well do we know them? So these are all questions that I think deserve deeper exploration and that mostly we don't. We just have these feelings and we kind of turn away or feel shy or feel like maybe we don't belong at this table or something like that. So what is recommended as a medicine for this particular illness is to simply sit zazen for the sake of Zazen. The Roshi says, if enlightenment comes, it just comes.

[11:41]

We should not be attached to the attainment. And that's because the true quality of Zazen is always there. The attainment is always there. It was there the first time you sat, and it was there before you ever thought of sitting. And even if we miss getting to the Zendo at all, it's still there. So he says that the quality of Zazen will express itself, and then we will have it. as it expresses itself, that's when the quality of Zazen is present. So I think you're all familiar by now with this saying of no gaining idea. Suzuki Roshi talks about that a lot in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, no gaining idea, which is another variation on working hard, accomplishing nothing. So when people ask Suzuki Roshi how to practice without a gaining idea, he answered, the kind of effort For that kind of practice is the effort to rid ourselves of that something extra that's in our practice. So ridding ourselves of something extra is how we practice with no gaining idea.

[12:46]

And when some extra idea comes, like, boy, I'm getting really good at zazen, that's kind of extra, or that was a very nice bow I just did, I sure hope Reb saw me doing that, that's extra. So we need to notice those ideas and let them go. but they'll go anyway. Just watch them go. And if you can, if you have time, it's also kind of nice to smile at them as they go, as I like to do when they come and go for my awareness. You know, just silly me or just plain silly, you know, even the me is extra. So the koan that appears in this talk is this very famous one, to hear the sound of one hand clapping. And what is the sound of one hand clapping? You've heard that one before. This is a famous koan by Hakun Zenji, Rinzai, Zen master. So there's a book about koans that I highly recommend. It's really nice if you want to get a little further into koans.

[13:47]

Written by, edited actually by Dale Wright and Stephen Hynde. And the book is called The Koan. And there's an article in it, it's a collection of articles, by a teacher by the name of Victor Hori. He's a Rinzai teacher. And he talks about this particular koan of the sound of one hand clapping, the one that Suzuki Rishi is mentioning in this talk. Hori says that words such as those in this koan about the sound of one hand are meaningful as a performance. The words cannot be said to be either true or false. But in a particular context, they can be successful or unsuccessful. And then he cites another person, another teacher by the name of Rosemont. Don't know him, but anyway, he said this. Questions like, what is the sound of one hand clapping? Or what was your face like before you were born? Or before your parents were born? Have no cognitive answer whatsoever.

[14:49]

And therefore, have no answer, then it can express some kind of principle. about Zen Buddhism. A koan, therefore, has no truth value or even much literary value, but they can have, for the Zen apprentice, great shock value. I thought that was very good, you know. These koans aren't about great literature or about explanation or about teaching you something about the Dharma, but they can kind of shock you. They can surprise you. and throw you back from your usual way of thinking and usual way of calculating, from all these various attributes that we've attached to ourselves, making us into a person that's either not good enough or better than others and so on. The shock values, some of that shock value helps to knock off some of those ideas that we carry that are simply not true. So Hori goes on to say that the appearance of having some rational or intellectual content, meaning that we're able to understand what the koan's saying, confuses us in terms of what their function is, which is, from one point of view, to fool us or deceive us in order to perform their true task, which is to make us stop intellectualizing, stop explaining, stop knowing.

[16:13]

You know, it's not knowing that's nearest. You know, we have to get right up to the edge of knowing in order to drop off into what's not known, which is a much vaster space than what we know, right? So, now, that's certainly one understanding of how these stories do their work, you know, that get us to stop intellectualizing. If you remember from some of those Transmission of Light stories that the teacher oftentimes, as the monk is intellectualizing, will... whack them in the face with their horse whisk, their horsetail whisk, you know, whisk in the face, just to get them to just stop, just stop, just stop, just give it a break. So this is one way, as Hori talks about in his article, of understanding these stories, how they do their work. And then on the other hand, there's always on the other hand, when we're thinking about dharma, it's always good to look, On the other hand, look at it this way, and on the hand that's not clapping, koans can also help us to get over the difficulty of not allowing two opposite things to be true.

[17:24]

In our Western logic, from what I understand, you can't have two opposite things both being true. It's either yes or no. It's either yes or no, not yes and no. So in Dharma, two opposite things can both be true. two opposite truths, or not opposite, but two complementary truths, the ultimate truth and the relative truth, are both true. So this is a different kind of logic or a different kind of worldview than the one that we've been raised in here in what we call the West. So whether it's one or two hands clapping, it's really about the issue of duality. When there's an example of a koan of these two things, like what's the sound of one hand clapping, they're begging the other hand. What's the sounds of two hands clapping? So the koan is asking you, asking us to think, for you to think you know what duality is. Do you know what duality is? Two hands clapping.

[18:25]

That's duality. Well, what about non-duality? One hand clapping. So this is one way of demonstrating some understanding you might have about... this metaphor of the two hands, but it's also an enactment or a performance that one does. My understanding of Rinzai practice, for those of you who've done some of it, probably some of you have, a lot of it is about performing the answer to the koan rather than just giving some kind of, you know, some kind of verbal explanation. You know, go in there and I suppose you could tap the teacher on the face if you were brave enough to do that with your one hand. What's the sound of one hand clapping? Or whatever else you might come up with that was sincere and direct and full of energy and full of enthusiasm. I'm not sure there's any particular right or wrong answer, although I think there is a curriculum. But you can be creative. And I have had some friends who helped me a little bit with that by bringing in some very fun things to help me understand the koans they were working on.

[19:28]

So Suzuki Rishi says that usually we think that the sound coming from hands clapping requires two hands. A subject and an object. That's how we see the world. It's me and all of that. And all of you. And everything else. But right in the middle is the one hand. Me. The subject. And therefore, clapping with one hand makes no sound at all. Subject only. There's no objects. No sound. No sights. No taste. No touch. Right? But he says, if sound didn't already exist before you clap or before you had hands, then there couldn't be any sound. Before you make it, there is already sound because sound is everywhere. Reality is everywhere. All of the things that make up our lives are already there. They didn't start with us, right? It didn't just come in. Sound didn't just happen when I was born, you know, nor did it did vision or color or taste or any of these things.

[20:32]

They were already there. in the making of me. So if you just practice, there is sound. Because there is sound, you can make it. Then you can hear it. Do not try to listen to it. If you do not try to hear it, the sound is everywhere. If you try to hear it, sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not. And that's because you have added to the sound a you. the one who is hearing. I hear the sound. Sometimes I hear it, sometimes I don't. If you take away the I, the sound's already there, whether you hear it or not. So then he switches from sound to zazen. Even though we do not do anything, we have the quality of zazen always. Even though we don't do anything, we have this quality of zazen only. Zazen has the quality of reality. We have the quality of reality. Nothing can be done to make it less so.

[21:35]

But if we try to find it, if we try to see the quality, then there's no quality to see. If we add a you to Zazen, then Zazen disappears. What appears is good or bad Zazen being done by you. Victor Horry says that it's the most difficult to see the non-duality of the subject and the object intellectually, to think of it, to know it in terms of knowledge. Oh, I know. I know the non-dual nature of the subject and the object because there's the I knowing, right? Kind of hard to get out of that. However, it can be experienced. In fact, we're all experiencing it right now. You don't have to know it. to be in a non-dual relationship with all that there is. Which reminded me very much of this statement of Dogen's about Zazen that's at the end of his essay called The Self-Employing and Self-Receiving Samadhi, which will probably be familiar to some of you if you've been around, done any Sashins at Green Gulture, done any practice periods with Reb, because he has brought this into our chant book.

[22:49]

And so oftentimes at noon service, we chant the self- employing and self-receiving samadhi. So here's the last part of it. The zazen of one person at one moment imperceptibly accords with all things and fully resonates through all time. The zazen of one person at one moment imperceptibly accords with all things and fully resonates through all time. Thus, in the past, the future and the present of the limitless universe, this zazen carries on the Buddha's teaching endlessly. Each moment of zazen is equally wholeness of practice, equally wholeness of realization. This is not only practice while sitting. It is like a hammer striking emptiness. Before and after, its exquisite peel permeates everywhere. How can it be limited to this moment? Hundreds of things all manifest original practice from the original face. It is impossible to measure.

[23:49]

know that even if all Buddhas in the ten directions, as innumerable as the sands of the Ganges, exert their strength and with the Buddha's wisdom try to measure the merit of one person's zazen, they will not be able to fully comprehend it. So that's the non-dual nature of our sitting practice. Even all the Buddhas got together. With all their strength and wisdom, they couldn't measure the merit of one person's zazen. So what this talk and these comments are pointing to is the effort it takes to realize what the Buddha realized as he sat under a tree and gazed up at a star. It was just a star and just a tree or just a hoe or a pencil or the sound, the sweet sound of one hand clapping or of a thousand hands clapping. Suzuki Rishi says that this world is its own magic. If we're looking at something, it can vanish from our sight.

[24:54]

But if we aren't looking at it, that something cannot vanish. If someone is watching you, you can escape from them. But if no one is watching, you cannot escape from yourself. There is no one else. So try not to achieve anything special, he says. You already have everything in your own mind. pure quality. If you understand this ultimate fact, there is no fear of losing anything. There is nothing to lose. So I'm going to end with a teaching from the Pali Canon, which I think applies very nicely to this particular talk, in which the Buddha gives instructions to a monk by the name of Bahiya of the Bark Cloth. So a little back story about Bahiya. Bahiya was a greatly revered teacher in the town where he lived, and then one day a woman of great understanding visited the town and candidly said to him regarding his claim to liberation that he was not.

[25:56]

So being an honorable man, Bahiya dropped what he was doing and set off to find the Buddha who he had been told was truly liberated and who taught a path leading to liberation. When he arrived at the place where the Buddha was staying, Bahiya was told that the Buddha had gone into town to collect alms. So he raced into town to find him. And sure enough, there he was, serene and inspiring confidence, calm, his mind at peace, having attained the utmost tranquility and poise, tamed, guarded, his senses restrained, a blessed one. So Bahiya threw himself on the ground, begging the Buddha to teach him. So the Buddha then said, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus. In the seen, there will be just the seen. In the heard, just the heard. In the imagined, just the imagined. And in the cognized, just the cognized. And that is how you should train yourself, Bahiya.

[26:59]

And when for you, there will be just the seen in the seen, just the heard in the heard, just the imagined in the imagined, and just the cognized in the cognized, then bahiya, you, in connection with that, you, in connection with that, will not exist. You will not be found in this world or in another world or someplace in between. Just this bahiya is the end of suffering. Through this hearing of this teaching from the Blessed One, the mind of bahiya was right then and there released from the toxic belief in a separate self. Once having exhorted Bahiya of the bark cloth with this brief explanation of the Dharma, the Blessed One left. The next day, Bahiya was attacked and killed by a cow with her young calf. When the Blessed One returned and heard the news of Bahiya's death, the monks said to the Buddha, Bahiya's body has been cremated, Lord, and his memorial has been built, but what is his destination?

[28:01]

What is his future state? To which the Buddha replied, Monks, Bahiya of the bark cloth was wise. He practiced the Dharma in accordance with the Dharma and did not pester me with issues related to the Dharma. Bahiya of the bark cloth is totally unbound. And then to help them further in realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One exclaimed, Where water, earth, fire, and wind have no footing, there the stars don't shine, the sun isn't visible. There the moon doesn't appear, and there darkness is not found. And when a sage, a Brahmin, through sagacity, has realized this for themselves, then from form and formlessness, from bliss and from pain, they are freed. So what the Buddha is talking about here in this teaching to Bahiya is this experience of awakening itself, in which the mind is no longer seen as separate from the body, and this place is no longer seen as separate from that place or from any other place.

[29:09]

And most importantly, your suffering, our suffering, is no longer seen as separate from all of ours. Okay. That's the chapter on right efforts. So please, please join me if you like in any comments or further conversation about this chapter or whatever is happening for you all right now with your practice. Thank you, Hope. Hello. Hello. I... Oh, dear.

[30:18]

I'm going through... A very hard moment. I brush my hair that shows it. And I'm experiencing something interesting, which is being both totally absorbed by the story, like in the story of, you know, woe is me, love and loss and grief and... Everything being totally in that story and then also noticing how self-absorbed I am and that it's kind of delusional. The whole story is kind of delusional. But then there's something wrong about that because that turns into shame. And then that's like, okay, I'm more self-absorbed.

[31:21]

And it's just this kind of spiral into like a deeper story and then like a battle with myself that's like real and not real. And I'm in a lot of pain and like a lot of pain. Yeah, but that's the formula for pain. It's being caught by our stories. I'm not being facetious. I mean, you know that. You see that. And you see that you're caught. It's not like, oh, I see that I was caught. I see that I am caught. And it's painful. And so that's the endless circling, samsara and the circling around and around we go. These are our habits. This is how we've always taken care of ourselves or tried to.

[32:22]

So that's how we roll, you know. And there is something about putting a stick in the spoke that's also painful. You know, at least pausing that process long enough, as you did for quite a while. You did on many occasions. You found that pause, that pause button, and you found relief. And I know you did, and I remember that not so long ago. Yeah. And you're young, so you're moving fast. So, you know, remembering, that's a really important step, remembering that you know that there's another way for you to think, for you to feel. This is not the only way you think and feel. So even when you're in the middle of it, you can kind of remember, you know, that there was a day, there was a couple of days, there was a moment, there were occasions when I felt really good. And I stood up straight, and I was in my place.

[33:27]

So we just have to keep finding our way to return and gain confidence in that. To really know who's in there. You are the support for that process you're going through. You are the grown-up that's going to help that young person come through these habits, their old habits. I mean, you're not old, but the habits are kind of old. You've been doing them a while, you know. So you do know the teaching. You have experienced the freedom of some of that spin. And so it's really a matter of like, what are you going to do? And when? And you know we'll support you. I mean, you know you have support and people care about you. You know, the lifeline has been thrown. And you're nodding and crying.

[34:30]

And I wish you were closer. Me too. Yeah, yeah. Do you think that it's ever, like, necessary to kind of go through, like... the story to like really, really be in it. I do. I found it extremely helpful, but I did it with a guide. I had a therapist who I knew cared a great deal about me and was challenging, would challenge me on all fronts. My stories, it was just stories. That's all I brought. Occasionally flowers, but mostly stories. And... he would listen to me and then he'd make these very grown-up responses and things that I still remember, you know, that were incredibly valuable in my maturing, my need to mature. I couldn't do it by myself.

[35:34]

I didn't have the resources and my parents didn't know how to help me. Most parents don't. So I found someone who could and I feel very lucky about that. And then, you know, Also Zen practice, of course, has been a tremendous, tremendous help. And my love of Dharma, sort of my life, has been, you know, that. That's just a vocation. That's my choice. But you don't need to do that. You know, you don't need to take all the medicine. Just take the tincture. Sitting, reading some Dharma, talking to your teachers. sitting, reading Dharma, talking to your teachers. But nothing quick. And I did go through my stories, as many of them as I could remember, like pulling up old weeds, you know, tangled vines and old beliefs.

[36:36]

I really think that was true. That really happened to me and all of that stuff, you know. And little by little, you start to feel cleared. Thank you. Thank you, Songo. Helene. Oh, hey. Yeah. I've heard that Suda before is very impactful, but it reminds me of my, actually my, my ski coach, she said about Tim's a pendulum, you know, he keeps focusing on this, focusing on that. And so I've had different emphases and a long time engagement and Dharma and

[37:44]

But I kind of settled on a core thing in Theravadan practice where there are, you know, they always add things up. There's five of this and four of that and seven of this and, you know, that kind of a thing. Well, the 10 fetters. I only think about the first three. And the first three fetters... in the traditional practice and they say if you can resolve these you've achieved like a first step in your uh realization and the fetters are um a belief in self just getting rid of that the second one is doubt as in doubt and dharma the veracity of it And the third one is attachment to rites and rituals. And that can mean a lot of different things. You know, I have rituals and things in my mind.

[38:49]

I think that's really what it's talking about. Okay, if you do A, B, C, D, and E, you sit on the pillow, and then you wake up, and then you go out and be nice to everyone you talk to, you're good. But that's kind of a ritual. We all create those. Yeah. So they say in a traditional Theravada, that's what they... I hear that this term is passed around a lot, you know, stream entry, and people have assigned, without being specific, many different meanings to that. But in the traditional early Buddhism, it means once you've addressed those first three fetters, you've achieved stream entry. Yeah. And essentially that means you can never be reincarnated in a lower plane. That's good. That would be a good goal, right? That would be good. A good starting point. I'll settle for that. I would really settle for that. And anyway, but I think it's related to that Sutta in a sense where the Buddha is saying, it's really simple.

[39:58]

know just be aware of this and be aware of that and then someone that was very close they they the light bulb switched on and i don't think any light bulb was going to switch on for me but i thought i would share that with the group that you know the those uh kind of core fetters and i don't think it matters what dharma practice you're doing and what tradition we all share that in common and uh yeah so that that really i know it sounds extreme but that is my core focus in my practice is those three things. That sounds very practical and very doable. And I'm amazed that you don't know you already did it. Because that's kind of the Zen thing. It's already happened, you know. There is no self. So having confidence, not doubting that truth of that teaching, you know, gives you two of the fetters. What? I'm on board with what you're saying.

[41:00]

I really appreciate that. I really appreciate that a lot. I really do. But you ain't falling for it. Sorry. I don't think I'm, you know, I'm little steps, you know, it's, it's, I'm making progress on that. I know you are. I know you are. And, um, all right. We'll leave you in peace. All right. Thank you. With your fetters. With my three fetters, yes. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. You're welcome. Yeah. Helene. Hi. Hi. It's very meaningful to me what you're saying about... the effect that our stories have on us. Because I find that I'm handling stuff okay, and then my story pops up.

[42:12]

And my story has an effect on me. Usually, it makes me anxious or worried. You know, I can get along without that story. And when I get along without it, I feel that I'm just working things out as they come. Yeah. And I'm okay in the moment. It's when that story pops up that it brings all my anxiety with it. Right. So I see that I am really able to let go of the story and just be where I am and that the story doesn't really serve to help me.

[43:19]

In fact, it's just kind of this repeating stream that... You know, it's kind of like I come up and I go down and I come up and I go down and the story kind of pulls me under. Yeah, right, right, right. Well, I think that's really good news that you see the difference, you know, between, oh, I'm caught and then I'm, oh, I'm not caught right now. Yeah. You actually have, because when you're caught, you can't remember that you're not caught. Right. That's one of the characteristics of being caught is you forget. that you're not. Right. So it's great when you're out of it for a while. It's just to keep reflecting on. That was just a story. That was just a story. Right. Reb had a saying there for a couple of years. Every time we talked to him, we'd go in there and go blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he'd say, well, that's a story. Right. It was kind of, yeah, I know it's a story, but I want you to listen to the details of the story, you know.

[44:21]

And it was just like, well, that's another story, you know. So it was really getting in the habit of saying that very simple thing. It's just a story. It's just a story. Yeah. Like a fairy tale that you got hurt as a kid, a scary one, you know. Right. Well, I've been involved in that story most of my life about my childhood and whatnot. And in my situation now, when my story comes up, I mean, the old stories have fallen away in this situation. It's a more immediate story about like, oh, how am I going to work this out? What's going to happen? How long is it going to take? Yeah. It's going to be such a hassle to clean out my apartment. And can I even do it? You know, physically and emotionally.

[45:25]

I mean, I'm just kind of, there's a lot to clean out and I'm just kind of faced with eventually of doing it. But I do notice that things run more smoothly when I'm not involved with my story. Right, and the safest place there is in this universe is in the present. Right, yes. It's the only safe place. Yes, I feel that. Yeah, I heard you say that. Yeah. I want to hear it back to you. Yeah. I want to say it back to you. It's really safe in the present. Yes, I agree. I'm really experiencing that. Yeah, that's good. It has such a profound impact on me when my story arises. Yeah. It just really deflates me. And so just trying to stay, maybe not block my story, but just let it come and let it go.

[46:30]

It will. It does. It comes from nowhere and it goes to nowhere. Yeah. Voila. And you're the hostess. You're just going, oh, here comes the story. Have a seat. Here's some tea. Goodbye. Yes. We're just letting it be. So it's a very helpful way of looking at things and seeing things. So thank you for talking about that. Well, thank you. Thank you for doing what you're doing. Doing it, yes. You're doing it, yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Sangha. Hello, Millicent. Hello, Millicent. Good morning, Fu. Good morning, everyone. I think I'm probably following on from what Helene was sharing. Reflecting on your experience in the dining room when you were accused of...

[47:33]

Falsely accused. Falsely accused of being greedy. I mean, yes, and when you say the only safe place is in the present, now I realise, you know, everything you teach us renders us mute finally because I realise that even reflecting on your experience of being falsely accused in the time. Thank you. What a friend. That the story arises. But if you say, now this is where I want to do some learning, in the present moment, in that present moment when... you were confronted with that experience and that was the present, that was the present moment.

[48:41]

How does one not, how do I not immediately say, oh, but, oh, but it's not really like that. How do I not immediately say, that I'm not being greedy and blah, blah, blah. So how do we manage that immediate response in the present moment of self-justification or excuse or the story of me? Yeah. Well, Hakuen, you know, the story of Hakuen, who was accused of fathering his child, And the farmer takes the baby to Hakuen and says, you're the worst monk that ever lived. And Hakuen says, is that so? And then he comes back later and says, well, that actually was the farmer's son who was the father of the child. Can we have the baby back? You're the best monk that ever lived. And Hakuen says, is that so? So, you know, is that so isn't a bad response to either way, to being, you know, praised or denigrated.

[49:51]

I didn't do that. I didn't say is that so. Had I only thought to do that, I just said, well, actually, this food is for me. You know, we're not being greedy and we haven't eaten anything yet. And, you know, so I was backpedaling as fast as I could, which is why I remember it. You know, I thought, hey, there was a chance. There was an opportunity right there that you kind of like missed the chance to have a good friend who was in. Nepal years and years and years ago. And she was walking on a trail where all these people are walking from one village to another village. It's quite a busy little highway there. And this ox was coming up the road, and it was going like this with its head. And when she got closer, she saw there was a big leech on the ox's nose. And she walked by the ox and had this really strong impulse to take the leech off the nose, but she didn't. So I saw her about a month after that incident. And she's never going to forget that leech. She knows that's going to be in her story machinery for all of her life because I didn't do it.

[51:02]

I didn't take the action. I missed that opportunity. So that's a lesson. There's a lesson for all of us. Oftentimes I think the lesson is stronger when we fail to remember. that there is no self to defend and I wasn't doing anything wrong. And is that so? Is that so? And still to be kind to that woman who had a very scowl, had a scowl on her face, she was scowling at us, you know. I said, okay, I'm going to be your friend. I made that promise to myself and I have been. I will be your friend even though I got scared and defensive here. And so there's also like, what do you do now? How do you come back now? Because these are people, these people are going to be in my life until I don't have any. You know, just like your village or your family. This is it. We're not going anywhere. I'm not going to be like somewhere else. I might just, well, I'll never see them again. That's not going to happen in Sangha. And so I feel like having lots of moves.

[52:06]

The first one you learn from, the second one you maybe reflect on it and then go, what could I have done differently? And then you're ready for the next time to see what you do. You know, it's like this, that's how learning goes, right? It's not just, oh, now I got it. Yeah, I get that for you. And I certainly, the story of your friend with the leech and how powerful that was, is going to be for her. Getting back to the dining room, my instinct in the bigger picture, had you responded to that angry person, is that so? I'd call that passive aggression, Foo. Well, the tone would have had a very big, you know, role to play.

[53:10]

Is that so? Is that so? You know, how do you say that? Or if you'd said, oh, okay, that leaves that woman. I think your response, you can, doesn't it come back to what we name stuff? I mean... We can either name your response as a defensive reaction where yourself was protecting yourself and the issue of justice and everything. But it can also, your response can also be seen as a simple explanation to that anxious person. That's true. Anxiety then deflates. And you're both open to friendship. I reckon you did the right thing. Thank you. Again. Well, I'll tell you something.

[54:10]

I did have an ulterior motive while I was talking to her, and that was to not make her feel bad. Yeah. Because I could tell after she stepped over the line of a very daring thing. I mean, she's talking to me. I mean, I'm kind of a big, tall person. And, you know, I'm... we're here to be kind of making friends with each other, and she's making a critical comment with a really kind of an unhappy face. And I could see pretty quickly how she could feel it, like, oh, what have I done? I could see that she had actually started to have some regret, or like, oh, God, what have I done? Have I ruined the friendship? I mean, I'm imagining that, but I think that was real possible. And so, you know, part of mine was saying, you know, I think what you did was really great. to call out people taking too much food because the people who come later aren't going to have any. If we all who come first take all the food, then the people who come at 12.30, there won't be enough, which is what she was pointing out.

[55:11]

And I kept saying to her, I said it to her a few times, I really appreciate your pointing that out. It's an important consideration. And I know you were doing that for everybody, for the community. So I do think... on my own behalf, that I was really concerned about her not feeling bad, about making me feel bad. Yeah. You know? And so I do feel like a friendship did happen. A friendliness was in there that I valued. You know, it's a good story from many angles. Yeah. Well, yes. You see, you've filled out with... with some more information about your response, but I just wonder quite often, maybe that's what you were talking about being driven by the Dharma, that sometimes, you know, if we respond with great purity and just say to a person who's anxious like that, oh, is that so, doesn't kindness trump everything?

[56:20]

Totally. Totally. I don't know. Hakuin was very famous for kindness. He's the guy with the hand of one hand clapping. It's a teaching story. We need the teaching stories. But in our real life, it seems to me that probably kindness trumps everything. I agree. And the Dalai Lama said that too. My religion is kindness. And I think that's absolutely right. And in any way we can do it. To ourselves as well, right? Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, can we even exist without our stories? I mean, even asleep, we're still story fine. Yeah. Anyway, that's my turn.

[57:21]

There's heaps in my queue. Well, those are all really good turnings, and I think more to talk about there about stories and the virtue of them. Because, you know, taking the relative truth seriously is a very important part of what these teachings are about. It's not just some kind of ultimate realization. It's like, how do you take care of the people that you're in relationship with for real? Yeah. in the grocery store or in the dining room or in your family, you know, not just these wonderful theoretical, you know, philosophical teaching. Yes. And, in fact, what I finally got from your story of your experience is that, yes, you did defend your actions, but you did it warmly. You didn't get cranky with it. No, no, no. Then I would have a different story. Maybe that's the fruit of your thousand years of practice.

[58:24]

Finally. I can handle the dining room. But you can avenge yourself kindly. Yeah, yeah. That's true. That's a very good point and a very good goal for all of us. Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Melissa. Hello, Echo. Hello. Thank you for giving such a wonderful talk and a great discussion. Well, I, of course, I think I suffered a lot from stories, you know, my own stories. And I also learned not to feel too bad about it because it's necessary.

[59:29]

Story, telling myself story, making a story up is how I understand the world. It's how I understand the... My experience, how I make sense of things is the story. The story might be, you know, totally off. And in that case, maybe my understanding is totally off, but it's necessary. So this encounter in the dining room that you just said reminds me of something. Other people have stories too. Hmm. Hmm. And assuming, I don't really know, but assuming this is a new friend, somebody that you are not familiar with, so you were being considerate about possibly what their story is. I think this kind of encounter, this kind of encounter of other people usually is a conversation.

[60:38]

Sometimes it's Verbalist exchange. That's the... That's how we make friends, in your words. That's how we build community. And that's... That's the wonderful part of being a human being. We are not all perfectly... Perfectly... I don't know... existence perfectly it's in a perfect existence on the same plan we're all different there's a great variety of us and each of us that's our capacity of making stories and we interact with the world around us with our own stories and fully aware that other people have their stories too and that's wonderful I think that's beautiful.

[61:43]

That's a great thing of being a human. Or, you know, in this time, in this world. That's how I feel. Yeah, and that's what we're doing right now. You're telling your story, and it sounds like one of gratitude and some truth about how you are and how you see stories. And I really am enjoying hearing that. And I got to tell my story. So I think you're right. I mean, it's like little ants or something. We just come together and share. Yeah, share. or something. Then we scurry off and bring back some food or something. So, yeah, we really do like contact with each other. And, you know, when it can be kind, that's certainly appreciated. And then we learn from the ones that are difficult. And that's appreciated.

[62:44]

Thank you, Eko. Cynthia has something to say? Where is she? Cynthia? I'm here, but I can't find my hand. Well, we're waiting for our tech support. There she is. Okay. Thank you, Karina. What was that, Karina? Okay. So here's this thing. First of all, I didn't understand very much of the talk. I'm going to have to go back and reread that one. I was so proud of me, the I, for doing so well with the first part of the Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, and then this one, it's going to need some more study. It's a little dense.

[63:54]

I'm a little dense. Well, I mean, okay, thank you for your confession. And we won't blame Suzuki Roshi. I just had this thought. We're talking about stories and how stories have, you know, the ability to sort of take us places, painful places, and places where I almost think they take us to more painful places than they do to the places where that gives us where we have... In fact, some science will say that 94% of our thoughts are all repeated thoughts, and they're negative. But then I'm also thinking about, as an English teacher, the thing that makes us human is our stories. That's what sets us apart from animals. Mammals can have a lot of feeling and emotion, but they can't really tell stories.

[64:58]

They have no future. They have no past. They have only the present. But anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there, even though something on this thing did not want me to raise my hand. But I don't know. So maybe that's some dualistic thinking. Stories can take us to places where we can live in pain. And then stories are the one thing that make us human. So just a thought. Yeah, you know, touching a lot of possibilities for more thought. And like about animals, which all started popping into my mind about, you know, I've got these little swallows that built nests outside my door here on my wall. And it took them a long time. And if they had no future, I'm like, what are they doing? You know, first it was one little row of mud and then another little row of mud. It took a long time, little beaks full of mud.

[66:02]

Day after day, drying and mud, and now these beautiful little nests with a tiny little... How'd they know how to make an opening? Why'd they make an opening? How do they know that? There's no architect that we know of. So I'm kind of amazed. When you say the animals don't tell stories, I'm sort of like, well, maybe not in the way we can understand. But I'll tell you something. I think there's something going on out there. Yeah. Really beyond. I mean, their babies have now hatched. There's eggshells all over the ground. So their mission is accomplished. And the Buddha was born walking. Or so they say. Or so they say. I alone in the world honored one, so he said. I mean, just see, it is really interesting that how much of what we do, do we do in the same way a swallow does what a swallow does? It is interesting. That's why I said what you brought up is very interesting. I mean, there's universities that are studying these questions, right?

[67:05]

About animals and communication and all that. How special we're not. The swallows are probably not getting their feelings hurt. But... Hey, I go out there and they start swarming. A bunch of them start coming at me and I'm like, excuse me, I'm not going to hurt your babies, you know. I'm a nice person. Well, if you've ever put a hummingbird feeder out there, my gosh, those things are just deadly. They're just mean little birds. Someone said if they were bigger, they would be the most deadly animal. Anyway, just the thought, when we're talking about narratives, this idea that They make us human, which is why we're doing Zen, to try to understand being human. There you go. There you go. And then they make us suffer. They don't make us suffer. We suffer by virtue of the stories we're telling ourselves.

[68:07]

It's not the stories that are coming in and making us suffer, right? We're the agents of storytelling. Yeah. And it's really good for us to claim our inheritance as storytellers. And to watch the kind of stories we tell ourselves, which is what you're saying, you know, what kind of story am I telling? Dharma's stories. Suzuki Rishi is just telling stories. Koans are stories. These are medicine, right? These are intended to be medicinal stories to help break us loose. Like Bahia. He died right after he got this teaching. He wakes up and then he dies. He's like, well, that's not fair. Well, but he woke up. He had this great understanding of this thing that was... hurting him so much. In the scene, just the scene. In the herd, just the herd. There's no story there, but still it's a story. It's a very simple story, like a formula, like one of those things Zach would bring home. It's a formula. He had a story about the priest and the monks. That's right. Very good story about the pig's boson.

[69:09]

Thank you, Zach. It was totally unintelligible, but I appreciated his effort. Right effort. Right effort. That's right. Maybe what we do is, if we got rid of our stories, we would get rid of our humanity. But then the Zen comes in where we look at the story like the cloud. That's right. Understand it for what it is and also understand its utility. Performance. The performance, like they're talking about the performance. Performing your understanding. By being kind to your kids, by, you know, taking care of this person who I was feeling shy or embarrassed by. You know, how to take care of your responsibilities because it's the bodhisattva path. So you don't have to worry about direction. You just have to come up with a, you know, a creative response to the situation. And the stories are just fine. But it's when we're unconscious, when we're not aware of it.

[70:12]

And that's when they become repetitive and ruminations. That's right. And we make up stories about other people that are based on nothing, you know, nothing at all. So we want to catch ourselves, the story-making machine, we want to catch ourselves in the action and really pay attention to that. That's just a story. Is it no case? Is it accurate? I don't know. I'll check it out. I want to find out if my stories are just... or whether there's some way that they're helpful. Right. Is that so? Is that so? Is that so? Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I just wanted to, as a story person, I thought I just, the ideas were popping into my head. Yeah, good. Well, that's where they belong. And they come out. Thank you, Cynthia.

[71:13]

Senko. Hi. Hello, Fu. Hello, Sangha. So lovely to be with you. I won't take much time. I just wanted to add to the conversation about how we're going to cope while you're away. And Kakouon's expression says, A suggestion brought to mind for me in one of my other sanghas, which is peer facilitated. We kind of trade off the facilitation of the gathering. And our gatherings are a little bit longer to give time for... awkwardness and all of the things. But perhaps that's something that we could consider in your absence is to maybe trade off facilitation and then introduce a question, maybe like as Kokon was saying, a particular talk in the past that had been influential, almost in a maybe almost a way seeking mind kind of way.

[72:25]

Anyway, I wanted to throw that into the mix. Great. I think anything is possible. I think the main trick is which used to happen with us as students of our teacher, is that are we willing to come? Are people willing to come? So it should be interesting enough and engaging enough for you all to be willing to come together and have some time with each other. So I think that's the trick as to how to make it desirable. So that would be something I would love to hear from you all. So your idea, I think, is a really good one. Whatever else we can talk about in the next few weeks, we still have until the end of July to figure something out. And anyway, thank you for your idea. Yes, absolutely. And if I may ask a question, though I see Dean, and you can answer in as short a way as you wish, about koans. I've been turning...

[73:26]

the thought keeps reoccurring to me, how much can we ever really know about that exchange in the koan, right? It's also often a student and a teacher or co-students because the context is missing, right? The whole thing is that it's this elaborate white stage on which they place these two actors with maybe like five words each and then you have the rest of it to imagine. Yeah. And absent the context in that moment, in a little bit the way of like warm hand to warm hand, can you ever really understand that exchange? And is that immaterial to the process of studying koans? I would say nothing's immaterial to the process of studying everything. You know, everything counts. Everything's in. And koans are about everything. You know, they're bringing in historic partners, teachers, students, words, ideas, dharma.

[74:33]

I mean, they're bringing the whole tradition in. And these folks have been studying the dharma. They all, I mean, as I've been reading, you know, the Koan teachers know the Pali Canon and they know the Mahayana Sutras. And, you know, so they've done their homework. So what they're bringing is a distillation of their studies to each other. It's kind of hard for us because we're not lifelong monastics. who have just been doing this, right, with each other. So I think we're basically making our best guess at how to make best use of these stories. And some of them are much more helpful to me. Others of them I just skip because I don't know what that's all about. So I just kind of pick the ones that I feel are encouraging to me. And then some of them I'll look into and I go, oh, that's interesting. There's a combination of looking more deeply into what other people have said And then also, what do you think? You know, it really comes down to what do you think? Because I like doing, we did a little bit of that koan, looking at some koans together, and I felt like what was exciting was what each of the people felt that meant to them.

[75:41]

We did it in a room here, actually, in Encel Village. I brought up a koan about, it's in that book of Hidden... Hidden Lamp. Yeah, one that I had written about. And so I brought that one forward. I just told them to call on. I said, well, what do you think? And it was wonderful. And we spent an hour and a half going through what people thought and how it struck them and something that happened with a woman with an attorney in an elevator. And it was like, well, that's fascinating. So everybody had some way of entering. Once they got over being shy and feeling like maybe I don't know anything, I mean, that's a big barrier. But once they got through to like, it's okay for you to interpret this however you like, then it got really lively and really fun. And they wanted to do it again, you know? So I think that's kind of the key is to really overcome the shyness and I don't know or I never understand. And just like, how does it strike you? You know? And talk about that.

[76:43]

And then the class is over and you don't remember. So it's no big deal. It's like the rest of school. Just the rest of everything. Yeah, right. Thank you. Sure. All right, Dr. Bradley. Dr. Bradley here. So I... have these thoughts or questions and then by the time things roll around I have forgotten it usually or I've written notes and I'm not exactly sure what my point was but where I am now which isn't where I was three minutes ago or six minutes ago or nine minutes ago when I appreciated that Millicent brought up the I was going to say the cafeteria But it's not called the cafeteria, is it? It definitely is not. It's called Sky Hall. Oh, right. Sky Hall. The dining hall.

[77:43]

I was thinking about that. And then I know that, yeah, we're talking about how be nice. That's what we really need to be. And whenever someone tells me to be nice, my hackles go up a little bit because I feel like it's not my strong skill. But I'm pretty good at being practical. So one time... And it's probably one of the truly important things that's happened in my practice is I was standing by the bulletin board at Berkeley Zen Center and this guy who tends to be a bit of a hothead, he came up and, I mean, he was really angry about something. And he said, well, you did this and you did that and da-da-da-da-da. And I looked at him and I said, God, Paul, don't you hate it when I do that? And I just... And what I realized when I said that, I mean, I was, I don't know, it just sort of came out. And the thing about it was I wasn't being nice, but I had absolutely no self in that moment.

[78:50]

And that's the thing that I remember about it. And I mean, that was probably 15 years ago, 15, maybe 20 years ago. But that was that, oh my gosh, that's what no self is. And so I think what I try to do in listening to all of this and being reminded is that for me, I found that I need to try to not something as opposed to do something. You need to try to not do something like... I don't want to let go of something. I just want to be free of it. I just want to not suffer. Or in this case, instead of being nice, I just wanted to not be personal. And, I mean, it wasn't something I was thinking about. It was just whatever mood I was in. I mean, it was during this machine.

[79:51]

So I think it was probably maybe like the fourth or fifth day. Unless it's tough. when I was really worn out and those reserves were down. That helps. But I really appreciated you bringing that up because those are the things that get me all the damn time. Almost all the little things is just that little tiny thing that doesn't matter and it's like a little bug fluttering. you know, a little mosquito, and, man, I got to jump on it. So I really appreciate the reminder. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. And it's a funny story, too. Thank you. It's a very good story. Yours, too. Yeah. Gee, it doesn't really bother you when I do that. I haven't tried that on Karina. Yeah. Oh, God, don't you hate it when I do that? Don't you hate it? And I do. No, not really.

[80:52]

All right, dear people. Thank you so much for your time and being here. Next week, there's no one home. And then I'll be back the following week. Okay, please take care. Good to see all of you. Welcome, welcome. Good night, everyone. Good night, good night. Thank you, Fu. Good night, everyone. Good night. Bye. Thank you, everybody.

[81:19]

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