This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. I wanted to return to a couple of things from yesterday. One was Jordan's question about the Samaya precepts, and when I looked it up again, yes, it's precepts that are taken, that connect you very strongly in the Vatrayana, which connects you very, very strongly with your guru or your teacher, and there's, you know, downfalls if you break them, breaking them.

[01:04]

I looked at the list. It's stopping loving sentient beings and disparaging your teacher and different things. So that particular thing that we chant with these esoteric or Shingon mantras, and so somehow that's in there for our common moments. Thank you for the question. Also, I wanted to return to Nate's question about getting up in the morning or Nate's expression to us to just say again what a difficult practice it is to get up and There's a Suzuki Roshi story, which didn't occur to me yesterday while we were speaking, but it occurred to me right after the lecture, which was about Suzuki Roshi getting up in the morning.

[02:09]

And I'm sure many of you have heard it. It's one of those part of the lore, you know, of Suzuki Roshi. So Suzuki Roshi's practice was as soon as he heard the wake-up bell to get up out of bed and head straight into the bathroom, get washed up, and ready for zazen, and he had been living in a cabin, I think it was cabin 20, was Suzuki Rishi's cabin, for a while, and then it switched to a new cabin, and the morning came, and the bell rang, and Suzuki Rishi jumped out of bed and ran straight into the wall. which is a wonderful story, but that kind of enthusiasm, you get up and you just head into your life, but you have to go the right direction.

[03:12]

So maybe if there's one thing, one thing all of Practice Spirit that we practice, it might be just that, you know, just getting up. And being at night, all myself left my own devices. I would very easily stay up till two and then sleep till noon. But somehow I chose another way. I wanted to, we've been talking about language and speech and words and I wanted to say something about the scriptures or the Buddhist canon and also Buddhism, just some general remarks. Buddhism is an extremely diverse practice, religion, practice, whatever you want to call it. In all the different countries and within countries, there are just really a wide variety of practices

[04:28]

ways of offering, ways of acting. And there's no kind of set creed or group of things that you must, you know, adhere to. There's quite a range. And how Buddhism develops all over the world. And one thing about our, you might say, canon, you know, In many religions, there's what's called a closed canon. There's a book, the Bible, or the Koran, or some set of teachings that can't be added to. You're not going to add another chapter to the Bible now, even though other... versions have been found of the Bible earlier, or according to someone else that aren't the official.

[05:38]

But nowadays, I don't think somebody... Actually, you can start in a religion. I think that happens with very recent religions like Quakerism, but the canon kind of is closed. Certain canons aren't closed. But in the Buddhist canon, it's an open canon. So things were added over time, over time. Sutras were added over time. And now there are things that are added to the canon, stories, stories. all the koans, you know, that become Buddhist literature or canon, you might say, and the classic, more contemporary teachers become part of the canon. Zen, my beginner's mind, you might say, is a new addition to the canon.

[06:41]

And so there's this open-ended quality rather than a closed and set So each of us, you know, Buddhas and ancestors of old, whereas we, we in the future will be Buddhas and ancestors, is a kind of open invitation to express the Dharma in your own unique way and become an ancestor. It's not clothes with just these are the prophets or these are the group. Another thing, Zen, often we hear about Zen, is the teaching that points directly to the mind outside of scriptures, which I think has been maybe misunderstood, grandly misunderstood, as I don't need to read anything or have to study the Buddha way in words.

[07:45]

It's just maybe everything I do points directly to the mind, which this is an instance of not being able to say everything. You know, as I said that, I thought, well, that's also true too. But if we hold to that and stick to that, that's wrong. If we stick to scriptures and the written and the sutras, that's not full either, you know. So... not sticking to either I don't read or I only read, you know. So all of our, many of our ancestors, Dogen in particular, read and studied extensively as a young man had read the Trepitika, you know, the Suktas and the Vidya and the Avidharma texts.

[08:47]

As a young person, he studied all the old wisdom school and studied koans and many, many sutras, lotus sutras. So this studying, this part of our practice of studying and reading and discussing is part of our practice together, is one of the... three legs of the three-legged stool of Zen practice. Zazen is one, study, and working with the teacher. And those three all support the seat, you know, the stool, you might say, of Zen. If you just sit and never talk to anyone, never study, that little three-legged stool will topple over. If you just study but never sit, Talk to everybody.

[09:49]

That will fall over too if you just talk to people. Anyway, you can see the three are necessary for a balanced practice life and full understanding of our practice. And to add to what I just said, the Dharma is being expounded unimpededly at all times. The poem by Lee Po, who was walking in the mountains in the night, I'm sure you know it, the sound of the valley streams is the Buddha's broad tongue.

[10:49]

colors of the mountains is the Buddha's body? How will I ever explain these sutras, you know, to people? Next day, how will I share this? How will I expound this? This is the koan, really, of our life, is the how do we share, how do we Just as I said yesterday about the Buddha refraining or feeling, I can't teach, there's no way, but eventually teaching. Also, when he met his companions that he had left to breaking the ascetic shared life that they had, when he came upon the five companions, they, I think, were... what shall I say, maybe looked down on the Buddha, on Shaktamuni Gautama, for not completing these ascetic practices with them.

[11:57]

And when they saw him, though, after there was something different about him, you could tell, even from far away as the Buddha walked towards them, there was something different. And he shared with them what he had discovered, his own awakening. And I always thought that it was kind of instantaneous. He taught them the first turning of the wheel, and they all kind of got it immediately, although I think Kudana, was that his name, got it. You know, I get it, I get it. He was ripe and ready. But also the Buddha stayed with that group of five for several weeks discussing talking about it back and forth, him talking and asking questions to get closer and closer to what it was he was trying to share. Because you can't say it all.

[13:01]

You say it, and it can be taken in one way. One side is illuminated, but the other side you can't. See, so then you have to say it from that side and fill it in so that it's round. So they were a small sunget of talking about what he had awakened to, and they asked questions. And he invited that, I'm sure. So together, they... The Buddha Dharma was born of all their efforts together. The Buddha couldn't, you know, maybe he said it one way they didn't quite understand, so try it this way, try it that way, asking questions. And I think that hopefully is our practice together, either in a group setting, class, or lecture, or one-on-one, to ask.

[14:14]

I was thinking this morning, sometimes the number nine or nine-day session is somehow daunting, maybe, especially the first time. But today is counting down. This is the seventh day, so we can just relax. We've done seven-day sessions before. So that's where we are now. Nothing to worry about. And I feel like people have been sitting when I feel the silence, the incredible mountain, deep mountain silence at Tassajara, the silence in the room, and the quiet, still sitting. I am very encouraged, very encouraged by everyone's practice. And... And of course, each of us have our own challenges and struggles, and yet we sit upright and face the walls, face our life, face the unknown, face our grief.

[15:42]

And no one knows, really, these struggles. maybe some people know so I'm the Dharma that is being expressed by you the Buddha Dharma in wordless just sitting upright says everything you know that silence and effort expresses everything and yet we speak sometimes. I wanted to say something about our posture and breath and then share with you a koan that we can look at. One of the causes, maybe causes or conditions,

[16:51]

tension in the body and embracing or contracting is wanting to get something out of our practice and Suzuki Roshi's phrase of no gaining mind you know it's you know comes up over and over again as a kind of a watchword you know a kind of talisman you know to no gaining mind, for me anyway, to sit with no gaining mind. And the gaining mind can be very subtle, can be more gross and very subtle, but to take an upright posture, finding center, building the posture up from the bottom up. I talked about the sitting bones and the importance of being... balanced on your sitting bones we do that we we find that with the um pelvis the the way the pelvis is tipped back and forth so the the posture we start from after crossing our legs or sitting in a chair is built from the the pelvis up and as i said if the

[18:17]

You know, if we're tipped one way or the other, it's more difficult to breathe. And that causes a kind of anxiety in the body, a tension, a discomfort, the feeling like I can't breathe, I can't find my lower belly. Where is it? It's like sometimes it feels, or it has felt to me and others who've talked with me about it, like a kind of steel trap. in this area that nothing will enter nothing penetrates the breath is like caught and and a great amount of discomfort and anxiety I think can result from just the way we just our posture besides adding all the anxiety and stress and grief that we're working with in our emotional life, mental and psychological, emotional life, then you add a posture that is gripping or cramping our ability to breathe.

[19:39]

And we have, you know, more difficulties. These are discretionary difficulties that we add on top of our own struggles. So there's a quote from Uchiyama Roshi. This is Shohaku Okamura's teacher, who I'm sure many of you know of, and the practice at his temple was... Really just singing, pretty much. We had five-day sessions once a month. There was no doksans, no service. Very little ceremony, that kind of thing. Just singing. Very short breaks after meals, back to the cushion. So a quote from him about zazen, or the definition of zazen, from Uchiyama Roshi is...

[20:44]

Zazen is an effort to continuously aim at a correct sitting posture with flesh and bones and to totally leave everything to that. So, this is not talking about using our minds in certain ways to do certain things or using or trying to control or guide the breath in special ways. This is no contrivances, no additional practices other than sincerely with flesh and bones, with our skeleton aim. sitting upright. And that's all.

[21:47]

And the breath, without any special activities for the breath to do, elongating or pressing. Sometimes people talk with me about pressing down the abdomen. And I'm sure people have heard all sorts of things to do, Gary Zau said, but without forcing or using any technique, any contrivance, to aim the flesh and bones at upright sitting and allow the breath to naturally flow. When we find this posture, the breath finds its way as well. This addition of contrivances or technique or trying to do something using the mind creates a kind of disturbance in the body-mind.

[22:48]

And it creates some kind of goal that you're aiming to, that you're trying to get, which, you know, immediately brings up, you know, sitting with no gaining mind. So we give ourselves even more things to struggle after and fail at, you know. And this is not conducive to resting, just resting in the body, in the body-mind, resting in our breath, resting in our bones. I think also if we have some idea that we're going to be attaining some special thing or a special state or a special experience, that sets up something in our psychophysical self, which I suggest causes a kind of tension.

[24:11]

in the body when we're trying to get something special. And in some ways is counter to the teaching, you know, that, you know, when Buddha, the teaching, the story of Buddha's enlightenment, marvelous, marvelous, all beings without exception are completely and thoroughly enlightened, except they don't realize it because of their confusion. So to be trying, to add trying, to be getting something to already a pretty dynamic situation of finding our posture, which is an exploration, an inquiry that never ends. We never get there. There's no there there to get because... we're constantly moving and flowing.

[25:13]

And our bodies, our blue mountains are constantly walking. So to have in mind I'm going to get there, that special thing sets up a disturbance. Subtle though it may be, And I feel I'm very familiar with this, especially to have been given the gift and have gratitude for some wonderful experience. And then that, you know, when that experience arose in this psychophysical flow, there wasn't at that time trying to get something at all.

[26:20]

So then to have that idea come in and kind of poison in some way or kind of being able to just rest peacefully in this very moment in suchness, whatever it is, So in some ways it's very straightforward to just sincerely make this effort with bones and flesh to go, to turn the mind inwardly to the experience from an inner sense of bones and flesh and the subtlety of it. We have the capacity for great, great subtlety in terms of the body. And with exploration and curiosity, to me that often cuts off kind of the root of trying to gain something.

[27:29]

It's too interesting just exploring. Whatever you are exploring, that in itself is a gift. is not having the struggle. What goes along with the struggle, and a number of you have heard me say this many, many times, the discursive thinking, the fast kind of train of thought that goes here and there and everywhere is associated with tension in the body. And when there's full relaxation, the thinking mind, also relax, relaxes. So going along with tension, you might notice, if you're noticing, some people have told me they don't notice kind of from the neck down.

[28:35]

They're not so in touch with, I guess, in touch, in tune with their bodies and sensations in the body, but a lot of thinking going on. And to bring oneself into upright, balanced posture, to be able to let go of that posture and relax the body, will relax along with it will be a relaxation of discursive thinking. And I wanted to say something about the breath. It is, you know, what Uchiyama Roshi says, this posture in flesh and bones. Within the posture, within our bones and flesh is breath. The breath is there to rest in breath, body, and mind and unify breath, body, and mind without contrivances.

[29:45]

So there's a koan in the Book of Serenity, the collection 100 koans of the Soto School. The Blue Cliff Records is associated with Rinzai School, more or less, but of course, you know, there's shared koans in both books, and in the Muman Khan shared koans, and then some that are just... unique to that collection. The third one in the Book of Serenity is called The Invitation of the Ancestor to Eastern India. And this is a story, go on, about Prajnatara or Hanyatara Dayayosho. And Hanyatara, Prajnatara, was Bodhidharma's teacher. Bodhidharma was the 28th Ancestor, Prajnatara was the 27th or Hanyatara, Prajnatara.

[30:59]

And this koan is about Prajnatara. Just to say, there's this story that Prajnatara was a woman ancestor, which I've heard, I haven't... read any definitive scholarship on it, but I don't know, maybe I'll look that up somewhere. So Prajnatara, as a young boy, about 10, the 26th ancestor was riding in a chariot and saw him and said to him, what do you remember or something? And he said, I remember many lives ago, you know, living in the same palace as you and supporting you.

[32:00]

And the 26th ancestor who was riding with like a Raja or something, said, come on into the chariot, took him with him back to the temple and trained him. And that was Prajnatara. So Prajnatara... The story in the Book of Serenity is that he was invited for a meal by a raja, by a king of East India, in a country in East India, and he was invited to a big feast. And in another commentary, which is not exactly from the Book of Serenity, but he came with an attendant, And the Raja asked him to chant, to do chanting of sutras. And the attendant chanted, but Prajnatara, he couldn't, he didn't chant, silent.

[33:07]

And so the Raja asked him, why don't you read scriptures and why don't you chant scriptures? And Prajnatara said, this poor, Wayfarer doesn't dwell in the realms of the body or mind when breathing in, doesn't get involved in myriad circumstances when breathing out. I always reiterate such a scripture, hundreds, thousands, millions, of scrolls. So Prajnapthara's scriptures, hundreds, thousands, millions of scrolls of the scriptures, exhaling, I don't get involved in the myriad circumstances.

[34:14]

Inhaling, I don't get involved in thinking, body and mind. Breathing in, I don't get involved in the myriad circumstances. Bringing in, gauging thoughts and views, good and bad, what's happening, why are they doing that? The myriad circumstances, while breathing in, I don't get involved. Breathing in, breathing out. Inhaling, exhaling. Hundreds and thousands and millions of scrolls. Not dwelling in body and mind. And getting caught in discursive thinking and distractedness.

[35:17]

Just, just breathing in. The sutra of breathing in. The teaching of inhaling completely. not getting involved, and exhaling completely, not getting involved in myriad circumstances, in, out. And what does Sissigyoshi say? The breath, you know, is just a swinging door. It's just a swinging door. Emptiness within and emptiness without hundreds, thousands, millions of scrolls. Prajnatara was Bodhidharma's teaching. Prajnatara means jewel of wisdom. Prajnatara and this means jewel. So jewel of wisdom. And he was thought to be the Bodhisattva, which is really fun to say, this Bodhisattva, Mahasthamaprakta.

[36:27]

Mahasthamaprakta is one of the main of the eight Bodhisattvas. We don't chant the name of Mahasthama Prapta. Maybe because it's hard to pronounce or something. But anyway, Mahasthama Prapta and Avalokiteshvara are sometimes on either side of Amida Buddha. But, you know, along with Samantabhadra and Manjushvira, Mahasthama Prapta, it means arrival of great strength and it represents the So here's this jewel of wisdom. And, you know, his student was Bodhidharma, and Bodhidharma was thought to be Avalokiteshmar, right? When he went to the emperor of China and had their famous dialogue and left,

[37:28]

Master Juror said to them, but do you know who that was? No, it wasn't. That was the Mahasattva Avalokitesvara. So Bodhidharma Avalokitesvara, compassion, and his teacher, supposed to be the incarnation, or not incarnation exactly, but a form of Mahasattva Prabhupada, the power of wisdom. So the two of them together, wisdom and compassion. The story of how Bodhidharma met Prajnatara, Prajnatara was visiting his father, who was a king, and Bodhidharma had two brothers. And this story of, you know, not chanting sutras, but breathing as his scrolls of sutras, the king gave him Bodhidharma's father gave Prajnatara a beautiful gem, and Prajnatara decided to use it as a kind of teaching device for the sons, the three sons of the king.

[38:42]

And he showed it to the first two sons, and they praised it. Oh, what a beautiful, shining gem. It's so beautiful. It must have belonged to my father, our great father. And then he showed it to Bodhidharma, and Bodhisattva said, Yes, that's a splendid jewel, but the true jewel is the jewel of the mind. This material gem shines brightly, but the jewel of the mind is the brightest, shiny gem. And Prabhupada thought, I think I'm going to watch this boy. And I think his father died, Bodhidharma's father died, and then Prashnakhtara came to get him. He started practicing with him and practiced with Prashnakhtara for about 40 years, and then on his own. When he came to China, he was supposed to have been 110 or so, the story says.

[39:44]

So we have words and letters and speech and the language. and sutras that we learn by heart and study and share and ask about, venerate, and we have hundreds and thousands of scrolls from our own body, our own inhaling and exhaling, inhaling, not getting involved, with thoughts, discursive, discriminative, distracted thoughts, not getting involved. They do arise. Our thinking arises, but we let it go. Hundreds of thousands of times, billions of times. We don't get caught up, get involved. And exhaling, we don't get involved in all the myriad things, the endless things.

[40:54]

of judgment and circumstances and what's happening. We are aware, but we don't get caught up in it and whisked away over and over and over. So let's continue our effort together reciting these sutras silently, and entering our zazen in a, maybe a fresh way for you, each poem. We talked about yesterday briefly, this is the last thing I'm going to say, and then we can ask some questions if you'd like. about mudra both expressing something and evoking, evokes in us when we practice the mudra, and also when seeing another, it evokes.

[42:09]

And I wanted us to all pay attention to the mudras. I talked about the cosmic mudra the first day, I think, and I wanted to mention our gaso, when I walk around in the morning doing the kentang kentang means to look at the tang and each of you is expressing your uniqueness and each of you does expounds the mudra expresses the mudra in your own way and it expresses you expresses your uniqueness, and also evokes something. And what I'd like to offer or suggest is, you know, the Tibetan bowing, I think you touch your head, throat, and heart, and then do a full prostration all the way out

[43:21]

on the ground, the full length of your body as a, that form of bowing includes the karma of body, speech, and mind, and that full body, like plunging into your life with sincerity, really. And maybe some of you have done those practices, 100,000 bows, I imagine it's quite energetic, quite athletic, actually, to do those kinds of bows. And to see someone bowing that way expresses something and evokes something. So our gasho, there's many ways to gasho, many ways to bow. And I wanted to just refresh for you and suggest... ask that you explore, maybe, your practice of gasho.

[44:27]

So what was passed on to us from this lineage, and I know you've heard this many, many times, and already I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard that, and I don't want to, which is okay. You know that song about I Don't Wanna and Noah Won't? Which I'll sing for you. What's your name, little girl? My name is Ida. Ida what, little girl? Ida wanna. What's your name, little boy? My name is Noah. Noah what, little boy? Noah won't. So that might be your practice. It has its own, you know, past, person, and future. But anyway, and as I'm speaking, I can hear what I'm not saying.

[45:32]

Try to hear what I'm not saying. So the gashou that we were taught was palms pressed together, fingers together, thumb joining the rest of the fingers rather than out. And palm to palm, so not, this is another mudra. This is lotus bud with air inside. So ours, the one we were taught was palms pressed together, fists width from your nose and about even with your nose. And then the arms are, they're not really, they can't be really parallel with the ground because I think that We're not anatomically meant to go all the way up, but up there. And then for me, what I discovered in practicing that mudra, which is a yoga posture, I think, is what I noticed is a kind of energetic flow that comes out from under the arms, like that, which you can explore.

[46:49]

You know, whether there's some energy that comes. And then when you bow, you keep the fist's width and bow from the hips. So that mudra, you can see what happens when you try it and what's... how it is for you. So I just wanted to offer that as a, you know, we bow so often during the day. You know, it's really hard to count, especially when we bow in passing. And, you know, at the bathroom, at the baths, we do that practice. That practice is evoked and expressed throughout the day. And kind of the last thing we do at night before bed, you know, it's so to bring consciousness into it and kind of energy the way you would bring to a yoga posture, practicing a yoga posture.

[48:05]

And you can see when you're tired what it's like, when it's your bright and chiffle, when you're angry, you can... have that yoga posture and mudra speak to you. Are there any things that you would like to bring up? Vincent? Yeah, in the beginning, of your talk, you're talking about, you know, how we're trying to find a balanced, relaxed posture. And, you know, when we put ourselves in postures that don't allow us to breathe openly, it's adding stress on top of what we're already taking to the cushion.

[49:12]

And that sort of thing, It really makes me wonder why we don't just instruct folks to, um, you know, we pretty much instruct folks to sit on the ground or on cushions. And for most people, I think this feels pretty unnatural at first. And I think for some people, it's like a situation where they're never completely a hundred percent relaxed, upright, and comfortable. So I wonder, I just feel a lot of passive discouragement from chairs that were given every alternative. Yeah, so just absent.

[50:14]

What did you say about passive? about the chair. Well, I feel like there's a lot of pressure in our tradition to not sit in a chair. Oh, I see. When I think for almost everyone, it's more natural. You're able to be more relaxed, probably more upright because our muscles are short or long in such a way, you know, because we've grown up sitting in chairs, you know. I hear the discouragement and the discouragement and this questioning of why are we not going along with the way people are or something and help them the way they are rather than you know encourage them to do something that's maybe

[51:21]

and where they might hurt themselves. So I think the yoga posture of cross-leaded sitting is, um, allows, you know, when the legs are crossed, it, the spine is, uh, uh, without much muscle at all supported upright. The chair, and the chair I, uh, Really, I know a number of people, Shohaku Muroshi, for one, who sit in a chair, take the mountain pose, find their mountain seat in a chair, and prefer... He right now has said, you probably know, his body was damaged by incorrect sitting, by pushing too hard, by overdoing it as a young man. And now he can sit cross-leaf. But, you know, when you see him sit and a number of people I know who sit in a chair, it expresses and evokes, you know, complete upright awareness and relaxation beautifully.

[52:49]

So there's those who feel, you know, no, no, not a chair, you know, chair is a wonderful place to find your sitting, your mountain seat, which does not counter the fact that cross-legged sitting, full lotus, half lotus in particular, support the spine in a very easy and a way that you can completely relax. that cross supports the spine. So as a yogic posture, you can sit comfortably and long, you know, with very little support.

[53:52]

You know, when I mentioned calliope sitting, I think we all start out finding that balance, you know, as babies be. You know, unless there's something the matter. We all do it. We all find it. And it's comfortable. It's totally comfortable. And then causes that conditions, you know, over the years and ways we have of moving and sitting and improper chairs and airplane seats and, you know, all sorts of things contribute to difficulty with our bodies. So in giving zazen instruction, I think it's really important to not somehow denigrate chair sitting, but to have it as, these are the possible ways for uplight sitting, and benches as well.

[54:59]

So that's my response to your question. I don't know if it hit the mark or not, Benson, but... but the first monastery that I was a resident at was in the monastery at Srenzai and you're only allowed one cushion and you can't move. And there's somebody that will yell at you if you do move. And so my first few shishin there, I cried tremendously and slipped off my cushion many times. It was very painful. But that was the agreement I made, you know, to do that. So when I came to, when I went to the monastery center in Vermont, and then here, I was almost appalled how many cushions were allowed for the Zendo.

[56:06]

Because at the time, I didn't know, as you earlier mentioned, that there's really, you know, not a form, not everything's the same. I just thought that it was like Catholicism, where no matter where you go in the world, all the hymns are the same, the singing's the same. So I was somewhat judgmental about the number of cushions. And just a few days ago, when we were allowed to talk outside, there was a conversation about that practice of one cushion, no movement, no support, versus this, where some people have two or three cushions or... are allowed to rest in a sleepy position or have chairs. So, you know, I do go back and forth as far as what is appropriate and what is the best sit. And having been a yoga instructor since 94, even in a partial full lotus or what we sit, we're still extremely stretching our lower limbs.

[57:12]

And so I think that's where a lot of our pain comes from. You know, I wonder what the best format is to make everybody really work on Full Otis. And then in studying some of the ancient drawings of Buddhism, there's a comical etching of a doctor taking care of somebody who has hemorrhoids. And it's a joke because many people at that time thought that their, you know, sitting Zazen actually did injure you. And so, yeah, and, you know, I take this as a very athletic, physical practice, you know, and I think it is demanding. And I, you know, I just, I think it's a good conversation for us to look at. You know, I just... You know, at Zen Mountain Monastery and Rensai, they really think that there's so many ways to manipulate and avoid the circumstance you're in.

[58:24]

And physically, that's one of them. Yeah, well, thank you. I think you're right. I think it is. Not for everybody. Some people can zap into full lotus. They're very flexible or whatever. But for most people, the... cross-legged sitting there will be um it's you said demanding and athletic i think it it has it's rigorous or vigorous and one shantideva talks about taking up our practice the way you would a sport you know where you what to prepare for a sport lots of you run and practice karate and all sorts of things, you work at it. You know, you don't expect to just be able to do a marathon or, you know, be in a ring or something. You work at it. You think about it. You do the preparation and stretches and so forth to be able to.

[59:29]

I think that one cushion size, I think, in... from what I was told, not having ever been in a Soto or a Nisoto in Japan, that there's a regulation-sized Zafu, and that's a style. I think, you know, one-size-fits-all, kind of, but we actually have lots of different sizes and shapes and have come, over the 50 years of San Francisco Zan Center, come to the wisdom actually of support Gusion props. You know, same with yoga. I think yoga teachers who use props, maybe Mr. If you're Iyengar, maybe Mr. Iyengar didn't use a prop. You had to get into that stretch completely. You don't have a block or a belt or whatever. And, you know, people have injured themselves by overdoing it and doing it by force.

[60:35]

I think if we had one's awful fits all, we'd have maybe a lot more problems, you know, back problems, knees. And I do remember myself being prejudiced maybe in the early days when I was, you know, here in 74. We had no chairs in the Zendo. And during that particular tangario, a number of people needed chairs. And I went to the app and I said, they're bringing all this furniture to the Zendo. And I was appalled. And he, Zen Tatsubaker, was like, absolutely, this is what's called for, this is what we're responding to. And I had to let go of my, whatever it was, kind of attachment to something about what it's supposed to look like or what's real Zen or something. So I think over time, you know, to me it's a maturation of the practice. But it's true.

[61:37]

Sometimes the... I know someone in particular who brings in really a lot of stuff to be able to sit, you know, like a stool kind of chair thing that's small and many, many cushions and then under the ankles. But it's great. You know, it's... It's what feels the most stable. So we can accommodate it. Could you say something about moving and not moving? I'm finding that I'm getting back to sitting on just a cushion with two support cushions under my knees for a couple of years of sitting on a bench not being able to sit cross-legged. And there comes a point, sometimes, especially in a long period of zazen, where I'm just so uncomfortable, I feel I have to move.

[62:44]

And I work with my breath. Sometimes the pain goes away, but sometimes it just gets more intense. And I get into comparing mine because the people on both sides of me are very still. They don't move. And that's encouraging up to a point, and then I find I just... It sounds like the sister speaks your mind. You know, total engagement in a movable sitting. You know, we just chanted that this morning, right? And overall pervades the, you know, watch the... simple or whatever, the school, total engagement in a local city. So the Suzuki Roshi story, which I'm sure you know, Tove, is where Suzuki Roshi said, don't move, during Zaza, don't move. And then later he said, when I said don't move, I didn't mean don't move.

[63:50]

So I think that's one of those instances of you can't say it all. And My understanding from that is we do make an effort, total engagement in a movable sitting. We do, with joy, we do. And we don't want to hurt ourselves, you know. So often that, when am I, is it okay, should I, that's awful. That's very painful, that time of should I, shouldn't I. I want to, I don't want to. That's excruciating, as we can all attest. But the don't move is when you decide it is time to move, then you don't move from your zazen mind, which is anchored in your body and breath, unified body, breath, and mind. You bow and...

[64:53]

and rearrange, take rest posture, whatever it is. But you don't move from zazen. You're right there. This is the zazen. This is the Buddha of changing clusters. This is the Buddha of movement. I think what can happen is a cascade of emotionality, you know. I'm a failure. I'm not as good as they all do it. Or big relief. Or... I hate this. I love this. Just cascades of thoughts and comparing mind and judgments. I used to have a lot of fear would come when I was in so much pain. I was terrified of the pain. I was so frightened of the sensation, even though I don't think I was hurting myself. So there's all that. So I think the don't move is... total engagement in that which you are doing, that which is arising now.

[66:02]

And that's the don't move that really matters. Yeah. There was Jay and then Greg. Jay? I was wondering if you could say something about half-lotus versus quarter-lotus, because what you were saying earlier about full impact that's really supported. And I find that it's easier. In some ways, it's a lot less painful because they're so supported. But then I'm just never sure when it's a good idea to kind of like, what's the middle way between sort of, you know, because I'm going to, but then it feels a little bit painful, but then I just get sort of caught in, well, I don't want to push it, so I'm going to go back down. But then it's like, going back down cause it's more different. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I think that, you know, having the foot feet up higher near the thighs and that closer cross is supportive of the spine.

[67:12]

And you can feel it. For me, I need less high of a cushion when I'm in full lotus than half lotus because the support is there. So you're working on the edge there. If you feel when you do half lotus that there is more support, but there might be pain, are you switching legs? You don't have to answer. Switching legs is a good idea to have both sides be equally stretched. Sometimes it feels like you couldn't possibly put the other leg up at all, but slowly, slowly doing stretches, doing hip openers, So I think working with that edge, you don't want to hurt yourself, and is that just an idea that I'm going to hurt myself, or can I experiment? Yeah. And quarter load is, yeah, you can almost feel that you need more muscle to hold upright, to take upright, I guess.

[68:20]

Because that's where it hurts is on your ankle. On your ankle? Well, I think it's hard to say without looking at your particular body. I think what happens to that upper foot is it can get sickled, you know, where there's a sickle in the foot and the ankle, and that causes a kind of... discomfort there and it's not so good for the for the knee even because there's a ligament that's attached to the knee and if you sickle your foot which is another reason not to pull on your foot when you put it up but to take your shin bone nice strong shin bone and pull pull on that because it it can damage your knees yeah so yeah it is up on the thigh and you can place it in different places. But yeah, be careful about that sickling.

[69:27]

I think a little bit of a curve, but not a big one. Yeah. Thank you. Great. I have a little form question. Yes. Yes. When you, maybe after taking three grads, decided I have to move. Yes. To move without moving. Do a little bow to let your neighbors know you're moving and to let yourself know. Yes. I'm doing this with intention. I'm doing this with Saza and Maya. Yes. And then slowly, carefully, quietly, with as much dichotomy of emotion as you can muster, doing exactly what you need to do and no more. And then you're back. Do you bow again? Point. When you're done moving yourself? Let's see. When you're done moving yourself, and I think when you're resting and moving and all, you don't need to bow.

[70:32]

When you take the position that you're now going to be in, I think I do a little bow. When you're finished. When you're finished and you're stable, we're going to Siddhasana again. Yes. Yeah. I guess I do. You know, I've never seen, never read about it. I think it comes from, okay, I'm taking movable posture again. Yeah. Yeah. I think what Greg, I appreciated your description of, so you do it with intention rather than what I have done, not wanting my neighbors to know, you know, so that they wouldn't think about it. You know, think... less of me or something. But, of course, they couldn't care less. They're dealing with their own bodies and minds. So I kind of push my leg off, try to scooch it down, hoping nobody would see, including myself. But to do it consciously, you know, just as a practice.

[71:34]

It just occurred to me this quote from Eleanor Roosevelt. Let's see. You don't need to be concerned about what other people think of you because they seldom do. Was there one more question? Yes. Same. Something that's been very uncomfortable for me lately the past two months is while sitting, a lot of saliva will arise in my mouth that I'm having to consistently swallow. Uh-huh. I'm not sure how to wholeheartedly or completely do this. It's a consistent source of security. Thank you for being so honest about what you're working with. I think one thing to be aware of is your tongue. Again, it's the front roof of your mouth. That's a kind of a manga, I think, kind of a lock.

[72:42]

you know, where it says place the tongue against the front roof of your mouth with teeth and lips both shut. They're not clenched, but they aren't shut, and that tongue kind of creates the need not to have to swallow in that way. So that's one thing to look at. I would also look at the placement, our ears in line with shoulders and the chin dropped, because all the mouth parts and the head parts would be probably involved in that, to some degree, so that's one place to look. It almost feels like something to ask Li Ping. You know, when I took Ajit Goon class with her in the park, she would, we would, It felt so earthy. You know, she's so earthy. She'd say, now spit. You know, everybody would have to spit. And it was true. You needed to spit. We were doing these deep up things, and lots of saliva was produced.

[73:45]

And she knew it because she knows, you know, the body. And so, you know, it was in Golden Gate Park. So we were all spitting all over Golden Gate Park. Anyway, so I wonder if there's something else that might be... looked at that I don't know. But anyway, start with the mouth parts, quieting them and placing that tongue there and quieting them. That's also another thing for producing thoughts. When you quiet the mouth parts, tongue, and lips both shut, and that also, those are the language muscle, and when those are quieted, Thoughts are quieted, too. It kind of goes along with that. Same with the head. Ears in line with shoulders and drop the chin. Also is a quieting of a thinking. And this is yoga.

[74:48]

Yoga. Yoga posture is also, you know, dropping the chin. Rather than chin out, which is thinker. The thinker, okay? It... When the chin is up, that produces. Anyway, let me know. Let me know what happens. Oh, my. Oh, my. We have Engetsu Kim, Beata, and Mahin. Does this make sense? What time is it here? Two minds. One is to just hear all the questions, which means we'll go until what service? Is that true? 1150,000. Okay. Why don't we see if we can briefly do and get to Kim Mahin and Beata.

[75:49]

And please take a comfortable posture if you haven't already. Yes. I do a very slow movement. It's more like, I don't really need to, like, you know that I find that it's slippy, so my circulation is not that good. But I don't feel that I really need to change the position. And I kind of, like, give it a little bit more with my spine. That actually, that helps. But I wonder if I'm doing something right, or I'm doing a kind of negotiation. I've asked my neighbors and I asked, do you notice that I move? And I said, no, you don't seem to move. I'm not sure if it's right. Yeah. Well, I think it really is, you know, if you find like moving your spine a little bit is relieving and then you can sit still again. I think it's really, I think, up for you to decide. I think what we don't want to happen

[76:53]

or to be involved in is kind of fidgeting or, you know, not being able to settle and, you know, doing little micro-movements, you know, that. So I think if it relieves something and then you settle back, that sounds fine to me. But I think it's up to you to inquire about where it's coming from. Yeah. Okay. Kim? Oh, okay, okay. Did I? Yes, Marie. Would you speak about making an effort to get ready for a marathon without getting an idea? Well, I think... We do have dreams and things we'd like to accomplish and do and goals, you know, in our life to, I don't know, finish school or to build a house or to run a marathon.

[78:05]

So I don't think our practice, and this is the thing of you can't say everything, I don't think we're saying you can't make plans for your life or do anything or work towards anything. I think that kind of goes too far. I think the admonition in Zazen for gaining ideas has to do with, and I suppose with a marathon, too, you're perfect just the way you are, and you could use a little marathon training, you know, I think... if you're thinking once I do a marathon, then I'm really going to be super duper and everybody will finally, I'll get the respect, you know, that I've been looking for and I'll show them or whatever. But that's kind of this gaining idea that then you're going to be finally okay or something or, but to, and same with Zazen, you know, the,

[79:14]

The teaching is you're perfect just the way you are. And the other side of that is we practice endlessly. So to think, if I get that thing, then I'll be okay, is the gating idea. So we start from, I lack nothing, and I'd like to run a marathon. Or I want to practice completely sitting. I just wanted to ask about lying down posture, which I do not see as sleeping posture when I'm in the Zendo. In fact, it's probably one of my greatest fears, and that I do not use the posture often because I'm afraid I will sleep. And yet... sitting upright in a chair.

[80:18]

There is an actual form for this in the newer Zen canon. It's called Isu Zen. It comes from our lineage in Japan. And it is an entire description of chair sitting as a form for Zazu. So I would put that out there that it's not just an American invention and everybody bringing their furniture, that it actually has roots in our deeper lineage. And in terms of lying down posture, it is the single most difficult posture that there is. And I have done it all. And I would like to say that we are admonished bring ourselves as we are to the Zendo, to the Kushnizasa.

[81:18]

And that includes the body as well as the mind. Not all of us can choose either the body or the mind we would like to have. So we bring it as it is. And every posture is painful. There is no posture that is not painful when being immovable or not moving. So, but I would like to ask you if you could speak to the question of being upright while lying down. Thank you, thank you very much. When I was at this Soto Zen just a couple weeks ago, the Zotoshiu had these pamphlets about describing the chair sitting and with all the admonitions around that that they were giving to us.

[82:23]

I took a handful to have. I hadn't seen that before. So, yeah, the lying down posture, you know, upright is upright, upright, utmost right and perfect enlightenment, or upright and complete, is samyak, you know, is going in one direction, going with the flow of your life, and complete is what upright is. So to completely be yourself, whether it's, I think, lying on your back, is that supine? Yes, supine. Probe is lying on your stomach, right? So taking a supine, posture as a meditative posture I mean the Buddha every night you know took the lion pose to sleep on your right side and died in the lion pose and these wonderful figures statues of the Buddha and huge ones that I saw in Thailand just enormous lying down figures

[83:33]

is a meditative posture and is upright in the true meaning of the word upright. So thank you, Beata. And yes, any posture, any yoga pose, any posture, whatever, no matter how relaxing it looks, if you have that posture immovably over time, there will be... tension and pain and things to work with, the flow of our life energies. When we stay very, very still, there can be pain, whatever posture we take. Yeah. And this supine is, yes, all the people who I've known who have practiced supine So then the fear of falling asleep or fear or concern about it is really almost not wanting to disturb anyone.

[84:43]

And so that's an effort that people are making. So I think I'd like to close it there. Is that okay, Kevin? I have practical advice for laying down the mudra. that has been helpful for others is to hold a zafu on your tummy, and the tension in your hands will help you keep from falling asleep. Thank you. I haven't heard that. I imagine that works for some people. Maybe it wouldn't work for others, but yeah. Okay. Thank you very much. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[85:49]

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