This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. As I was walking to the Zen Do and coming in, it occurred to me I wonder what she's going to talk about today. There's a lecture coming up. I wonder what it's going to be about. So I wanted to bring up a few things with you and to continue with the next sentence of our Mountains and Water Sutra. But before I, it's not before picking up the sutra, it's another way of picking up this fascicle.

[01:06]

I wanted to talk about some things that may be coming up for you in your Zazen, including pain and sleepiness, which a number of people have talked with me about, and I've been noticing in myself, and maybe you've also been noticing needing to work with drowsiness, sleepiness, a kind of, not necessarily fatigue, but some other kind of state of mind with a kind of sinking quality where you can't, you can't wake up, you can't, So have some of you been experiencing that? Some of you? Yes? What? Yeah, yeah.

[02:12]

So I've often noticed the first days of session, often there's a lot of sleepiness and a real struggle. And then along about the third day, fourth day, a kind of energy has been... built up in some way that the sleepiness vanishes. But this doesn't happen for everyone and for some people the drowsiness, the sleepiness, dreaminess, fog lasts and lasts and it doesn't depend on how much sleep you get. Although I think it's a good idea to start there. Are you sleeping when it's sleep time in the schedule? We have good night bell, we have wake-up bells, so even though we don't say on the schedule sleep, I guess by having a wake-up bell we're kind of, you could infer that there's sleep going on there in the night.

[03:18]

Although, you know, there are teachers in our lineage who made vows never to have the side of their body touch the sitting platform, which is where people would sleep, in those old zendos, and present-day zendos where you sleep at your place. So people have made vows to sit up. In fact, I hope this is okay to say, Judith, about your sister. Judith's sister is a nun, And in her early practice at City of 10,000 Buddhas, you would sit sleeping up in full lotus, right? That was the practice there. So we don't have those practices. And if you are practicing in that way, I'd like to hear about it. I think there were things like chin straps. I don't know where they hung from the ceiling. Stick your head there and then... Anyway.

[04:19]

Sleeping at night is a good thing. So hopefully you're sleeping. And also, I recommend naps myself after a meal, although there's bath time after meals. So if you're having three baths during Sashin, you might choose one of those after mealtimes to take a nap, which supports the rest of your day. Other practices that are helpful when you're sleepy are to... you know, sit up, bring energy as much as you can through the spine, open your eyes wide, look at some light source, so the windows above your seat or the light, bring light into your eyes. And another practice is to concentrate, not low down, but on the breath coming in and out of your nostrils, a kind of sharper concentration object up in this area can be helpful for waking up.

[05:23]

But all that may not help. Maybe you've tried all those things. So there may be something else going on. And I think this happens not when you first start your practice, but after a while, after you've settled your practice somewhat, it's a different phase of your practice, a little more matured practice, this drowsiness can come up as a real, you know, a real difficult factor to work with because you're kind of unconscious and can't work with it. Different than working with excitedness or restlessness, you're not conscious. So... As I was mentioning to someone today, there may be other factors at play which could be, for example, something in your life that you do not want to acknowledge or look at or bring into consciousness.

[06:39]

And when it begins to come up, you go unconscious or you avert so strongly that you just fall asleep. So one practice is to notice right before your drowsiness arises what you're thinking about, what was the thought, what came up, if you can catch it. Or even to ask yourself, what am I avoiding? Not am I, but what am I averting from? What am I avoiding? And see if that begins some kind of different process. So I think I went through years, actually, of being very, very sleepy, and with the kiyosaku being carried, we had two people carry it, the junkos, and they'd each take a side of the zendo, and then you'd cross behind the altar and you'd go around carrying the stick, and if you were sleepy, you would be woken with the stick on your shoulder,

[07:48]

And there were times when I would be hit every time a Junko passed by, you know, and there were two of them, so it would be three or four times during a period, you know, just... And nothing, there was nothing anybody could do to wake me up, I don't think. You would think that would have done it, but it didn't. It would just go right back. So it was bigger than... bigger than some external helping method of being hit on the trapezius. So if that's what's going on, then these other methods of asking what is going on or what intuition do you have about what you might be averting from or something that you do not want to be conscious of. So this is another way to work with it. dressing a little bit more lightly, being a little cooler, especially around the neck area, is another way to help with drowsiness.

[09:02]

The other thing I wanted to bring up was just people dealing with, not dealing, that always feels a little people practicing with and accepting physical pain and physical health issues that are not really understandable what's going on. And it can... manifest as real pain in the body, different, there's pain that we're used to, pain in the knees that goes away when we get up for kidney and that we're, we get used to it and it doesn't really disturb us after a while. We understand it, we're familiar with it. It's like that old friend, you know, that old pain in the knee that arises, but we know it's not damaging, it goes away.

[10:10]

Or other pains, ankles. middle of the back, shoulders, hips, different places that we get familiar with. And it doesn't scare us anymore. It doesn't disturb us. We don't lose our composure while we're experiencing these sensations. But there's other kinds of pain, I think, or health situations that are... you know, very, we do get disturbed. We don't know what's going on. And we don't know, I think what happens is we leap into what if this means that, you know. And the worst scenarios, you know, I have, you know, some kind of terrible disease.

[11:10]

I'll never be able to do this, [...] and this ever again. I'll be, you know, And then the more that goes along with that, that maybe I won't be loved or accepted because of these changes. So all of us are subject to old age sickness and death, and each of us will be practicing with and feeling faced with and working with old age sickness and death at some point in our life. And these changes that happen can happen at any time in our life stream. But no one is exempt. So how do we accept the changes?

[12:18]

and skillfully, gently and kindly and lovingly study what's going on and take care of ourselves for the benefit of all beings. Out of compassion for the many, I take my rest, says the Buddha when confronted by Mara while he was lying down during the middle of the day, taking a nap. Mara comes up to the Buddha and says, what's going on here? The sun is high. What are you doing lying around? And the Buddha said, Buddha who had back troubles, said, out of compassion for the many, I take my rest. So that's been an important teaching story for me. So this particular year for me, I've had many, many health issues that felt like they came out of the blue, kind of random things like losing my hearing in my left ear, and various other things that some of you know about, spraining my ankle, being in a big car accident, falling down when I got here the first day, and various things.

[13:40]

And also, one of the things that's been most difficult, I would say, that runs through all these different things that happened was something that happened when I was in Thailand at the Women's International Buddhist Conference, Sakyadita. Judy Martindale and I were there and other people, Michael came during the last days. Anyway, while I was in Thailand, people for the sitting, they didn't have Zafus provided. You sat on a flat Very kind of a thin Zabutan. And for many of the... It was mostly women, like 700 women or more. Asian women mostly. Sitting flat like that might be exactly how they always sat. And so they were completely comfortable. And for me, what happened was... I don't know exactly what happened, but I...

[14:46]

kind of injured myself, or something happened with my left hip area, deep, kind of deep in the hip socket, or I'm not even sure exactly what happened, the psoas muscle. And when I left Thailand, I had this thing going on that made it very difficult to sit in my usual way, but I'd continue to try, and it would get just excruciating this. And I've been trying to study it all fall, actually. We were in Thailand in June, and what are we now, February? So since June, I've been trying to work with this in all sorts of ways, switching legs, higher, lower, not sitting my usual cross-legged, but other things. Anyway, nothing seemed to work. And I associate it with various emotional things that were going on, some loss.

[15:54]

This has been a hard year, actually, for many people, a lot of loss, a lot of deaths of people we've known, and suicide. So I actually associated part of what was going on with not just the hip, but what was going on in a wider way. So I just have been working with it while I've been here. And when I went up to the city, I went to visit a body worker Feldenkrais person that I've seen for years now. And talked with her about what was going on, and it was one of these things where she noticed that my pelvis, that I was turning my pelvis to the right.

[16:59]

The pelvis was turned, not that much, but a little bit to the right, but then the rest of me was, the pelvis is turned, but the rest of me is facing forward, and what that caused And she was amazed that I could even sit at all because of what I was doing by that turn to this hip. So you have somebody who can see, who knows what they're seeing, and can make a slight adjustment or comment. And I've been working with this, moving my pelvis back to center, even though I didn't know it was off, making this effort to be in alignment. I can feel this whole deep, excruciating thing beginning to resolve. So this is an illustration of, you know, sometimes what's happening with us is it's minute, you know, it's a half inch of a turn one way or the other or a leaning forward in some way or back or our head being, you know,

[18:14]

hanging forward and these difficulties that we have with our sitting posture or with walking around during the day are changeable, are movable, are also impermanent. And we can test this out, we can see from the beginning of Session to the end. how we're working with our bodies and how they're changing, how they're becoming less flexible, more flexible. It's always changing. And when we begin to have a kind of sinking mind, often we're thinking with permanency about the state of our bodies, the state of our health, the that it's going to be this way where we might be thinking, this is how it is, this is the end of life as I know it, you know, or some dire thinking in that way, which I was thinking about this.

[19:31]

I really thought this is going to be, this is what I'll be dealing with for the rest of my life. It was so difficult. But the... The fact that we are not substantial beings, that we are moving and flowing psychophysical streams means that there is always change, always an opportunity for and surprising changes. And how we change around our physical, physical changes happen, and then how we change our life's attitude about who we are and how we are in the world, that changes. And to find peace with that and to find composure and not be disturbed, but find that as this is our new offering, and we don't even know what it will be.

[20:40]

I was remembering, and I told somebody this story, something that happened while I was at Tassajara. The first summer I was here, or the second summer, I think I was the Eno. And a friend of mine who had, it's just a tragedy, when he was 15 years old his family was on vacation and he dove off of a kind of a cliff rock into the ocean and didn't realize that the tide was out or going out, and he broke his neck and became a paraplegic. He was a quadriplegic for a while, but regained the use of his arms. So here was this young man, really in the prime of life. He was really kind of a popular guy. He was in He had a singing group. He was friends with Bob Dylan, actually. And he was just really a cool guy.

[21:47]

And his whole life turned upside down. Anyway, he found his way. He ended up going to Mexico City. and starting a kind of community for people in wheelchairs. It was a business, actually, and he hired attendants and people to take care of them, help them with their daily activities, and it was in Guadalajara. I'm not sure if it's still, he's no longer alive. But anyway, he heard I was at Tassajara when I was in the area. He was older than I was at the time. I mean, he was always older than I was. So he was in his, I was 24 and he was about six years old or so. He was about that age and he had this van fitted out for him.

[22:48]

He drove, so it had hand controls and he also had a man with him who was his companion and attendant And he called up and said, could I come visit you at Tazahara? I said, sure. And he drove with this, it was like a Winnebago or something, down the road. I don't know how he got in safely, but he arrived. I don't know, Leslie, do you remember him visiting? No. Anyway, and I think he went to Zazen Instruction or something. Somehow he got to Zazen Instruction. And then he said to me afterwards, I can't sit cross-legged, I can't do that posture, how can I sit sasana? And I, in my kind of naive and immature place I was in my practice, even though I was very enthusiastic, I was absolutely stymied.

[24:02]

How can he sit? And I had no answer for him. It's a regret that I have, actually. I couldn't answer. What Zazen was was cross-legged, full lotus, cross-legged sitting, upright. He couldn't sit upright. He was very hunched over. He couldn't use his legs. He could barely use his arms. He could do the controls of the car. But I remember he had to help and couldn't use a knife and fork very well. I think his attendant helped to feed him and stuff, but somehow he could drive that car. Anyway, but I remember being absolutely stopped in my tracks. And I didn't know. And I had no answer. And I remember feeling, this can't be... this can't be true, that there's no way he can't sit.

[25:06]

Of course there must be, but what is it? I was so narrow in my view about what sitting was, what zazen was, and what possibilities there would be for someone that was manifesting a body like that. And I remember thinking I had let him down, I had let all the Buddhas and ancestors down and the practice down and Suzuki Roshi, it was like I was really missing the boat here. I really didn't understand something. Because I knew that Zazen didn't stop with a physical body they could sit cross-legged. Who would be interested in a practice like that? It's so... It's not wide enough, you know. But what is it? Anyway, so that was a koan for me for years.

[26:11]

And I have remorse about it because I think he went away thinking, well, I don't know what she's up to, but it certainly isn't worth much probably if it isn't there for me, you know. Anyway, the Winnebago thing couldn't get out of Tassajara. This big van that he had all equipped with, he was living in it. And I think we had to call tow trucks and it was this huge thing getting this giant vehicle around the curves and it had to be towed out. And he ended up staying here a couple days. And I remember he was, I think Dana Dantine and a few other people who were here helped him in the baths, lowering him into the baths and So his afternoon visit turned into a real encounter with Tassahara. And I was left feeling like, you don't know anything about Zazen or our practice.

[27:22]

And years later, hearing about hearing about a veterans retreat that Thich Nhat Hanh did with Vietnam vets. And some of the men, I think it was mostly men or all men, were in wheelchairs and they were practicing walking meditation, which is Thich Nhat Hanh's, one of Thich Nhat Hanh's main practices. And the person in the wheelchair asked him, how can I practice this? And Thich Nhat Hanh said, choose a person who's doing walking meditation and have your breath follow their steps as they walk. And that will be your walking meditation. So how do we practice with

[28:37]

our disturbances, and to find a place where we're not disturbed by anything, where we accept all our full life, whether it's in sickness and in health, and we practice there. And when we're disturbed, to know that we're disturbed, to see this is disturbance, this is a disturbed body-mind, this is preoccupation, this is worry, this is anxiety. To know that is a mind that is not disturbed, that is not anxious, that is not worried, and that is not preoccupied, the mind that is

[29:39]

mindful of all these states that are coming up, that mind that sees the disturbance and is not disturbed. It's practicing with it. So I think the last thing I wanted to bring up, we talked the first day about relaxing during session and during throughout the day, relaxing, finding a way to relax, which is very difficult for us.

[30:45]

I think we're not given to... or we have it conflated with laziness or something sometimes, I think. But true relaxation, you know, in these restorative poses in yoga, when you do restorative poses, these deep relaxation postures, it is a strengthening of the nervous system. It's a way of strengthening ourselves, not some kind of lolling about in... laziness. This is how the nervous system is strengthened through this kind of deep relaxation and rest. So I think we get very, our nervous system gets very wrought up, is that the word? And kind of attenuated, you know, like pulled, taut.

[31:48]

So to find our relaxation not only on our cushion, which isn't slumping down in relaxation, but in uprightness allow relaxation. But not only that, but when we're working, when we're standing at work meeting, when we're eating our meal, what is relaxation? And I'd like to remind us maybe or offer to unify your body, breath, and mind. You might say, is relaxation this unified being? And it doesn't mean slow down, necessarily. It doesn't mean some kind of...

[32:51]

Mindfulness and relaxation does not mean slow, necessarily, although sometimes we can find our relaxation by slowing down. But there can be full relaxation while we're active. In fact, that's when we don't get overly tired and overly achy and when we're relaxed while we're doing our work, whatever it is, and aware of the body and the breath. And you can notice, like I noticed yesterday standing in work meeting, you can stand in work meeting and be thinking about all sorts of stuff, about what's going to happen, what our work assignment's going to be, or what funny outfit someone's wearing, or should I put my hand and say shashu or not, or they'd bow differently at Green Gulch, or da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Just nonstop, you know. And one might try a standing in work circle or waiting for the meal to come, being in touch with your breathing, inhaling and exhaling.

[34:01]

That's what's going on, you know, right now, in this manifesting this body right now. And see what quality of being there is. it's hard to pay attention to your breath while you're eating. I think the sensations of flavor and sounds and not only flavor in the mouth parts, or the tongue I suppose, but sensations and that sensations in the whole body. And so it's kind of hard to stay with the breath. But And I don't want us to take this too far either, like, don't talk to me, I'm following my breath, kind of a rigidity. But in a relaxed way, while working, while walking, while bathing, where's your breath?

[35:04]

And are you chugging away with thinking and worrying, or can you come into the body? So bringing our awareness and our attention back to the body with a thoroughness and without gaining idea, without wanting to get something out of doing it. This next line in the Mountains and Waters Sutra, after Preceptor Kai of Mount Dayang, Fu Yodokai, addressed the assembly saying, the blue mountains are constantly walking.

[36:11]

The stone woman gives birth to a child in the night. And the next line is, the mountains lack none of their proper virtues. Hence, they are constantly at rest and constantly walking. The mountains lack none of their proper virtues, hence they are constantly at rest and constantly walking. So the mountains, as we've been talking about, just to refresh us, you know, the mountains are at the very same time mountains, Tassara mountains, and the entire reality of our being and our existence the reality of existence, the reality of all things manifesting in this moment. And we ourselves are not separate from the mountains looking at them.

[37:13]

We are mountains. We are the mountains. We are in the mountains. We are mountain people. We are mountaineers. So when this says the mountains lack none of their proper virtues, we're not separate from that. Earlier it had said each abiding in its own Dharma state or its own Dharma position fulfills exhaustive virtues. We're not separated from that. That's not talking about somebody other. How it is that we exist with our ten suchnesses, you know, of form and all the causes and conditions and our nature, our energy, our uniqueness, we lack none of the proper virtues. And the mountains lack none of their proper virtues. Hence, they are constantly at rest and constantly walking.

[38:18]

These are two of the virtues of the mountains, that they are constantly at rest and constantly walking. Now one might say, well, that can't be so. But as we know, as we've been talking about it, you know, myriad objects, the ten thousand things, partake of the Buddha body. So we have oneness in the night, complete, empty of separate self in the dark. And we have all the myriad things in the light, all the ten thousand unique things. right in the same mountain. It's not one mountain that's that way and another mountain, one mountain that's 10,000 things and another mountain that's empty of abiding self and oneness. We have mountains that have their proper virtues, their exhaustive virtues, and they are constantly at rest and constantly walking.

[39:29]

So these virtues, constantly at rest and constantly walking, what is that? And the characters for constantly at rest are Zhou An Ju. Zhou An Ju is constantly at rest. And this An, the An in Zhou An Ju is the character for peace. And it's the same character for ango, which means the name for practice period is ango, which means peacefully abiding, the same an. Peacefully abiding is the name of practice period, you know, training period, practice, where we... And it's the same an, jo, anju, when they're talking about the virtues of the mountains that are constantly at rest, constantly and peacefully at rest in their Dharma position.

[40:35]

There's the fact that there's peace there. And the character for peace, some of you know this, is it's a roof over a woman, over the character for woman. Underneath the roof, a woman sits. And I've always thought of that in terms of peace as, you know, from the Bible, you know, neath your vine and fig tree will live in peace and unafraid. Every person, it says every man, but every person neath their vine and fig tree or neath their, under their roof, under their arbor. You know, if a woman can sit in, under her arbor at home without fear of pillage and war. That's peace right there. It doesn't have to be a woman necessarily, woman or man or person, but the character is woman under a roof.

[41:42]

So this is this peacefully abiding both in our ango and the mountains or the reality of all existence has this dual virtue of constantly at rest, constantly peacefully at rest, and constantly walking, constantly changing and changing and ever-changing every moment at the exact same time. This is virtue. This is called virtue. So this constantly walking is ever-changing, and this term ever-changing, if you say ever-changing, the only permanent thing, right, is change. Have you heard that, right?

[42:44]

So you have something that is ever-changing, moment by moment, changing, changing, changing, and that in itself is its Constant rest, that is its constant or permanent is another translation of that character. Constant, ever-present, ever-changing, abiding in rest and constantly changing at the very same time. So in this moment we have, and time, you could say time, one way of thinking of time is it's flowing, ever flowing, you know, from past to future. But also right at this moment, at this present moment, the ni kong, the immediate present, there's no flow there in this immediate present right now.

[43:51]

There is complete rest. constant rest, abiding peacefully in each moment and flowing and changing. This is a koan, right? This is our koan. This is how we exist, constantly resting in each moment and ever-changing. The blue mountains are constantly walking. The virtue, the mountains lack none of their proper virtue, hence they are constantly at rest and constantly walking. This is, you know, if we just get caught in impermanence, which is one of the most basic, basic teachings, right, it may feel like, well, what's the use, you know? But there's impermanence as the teaching, but, you know, The Buddha said, if you see impermanence, you see Dharma.

[44:57]

If you see Dharma, you see me. So we have this ever-flowing impermanence. Right there is Dharma, is Dharmakaya, is the reality body of the Buddha. You see me. When you see impermanence, ever-changing, unable to be grasped, you see... I would say you see the eternal ancient Buddhas manifesting, constantly resting in each moment. So this knee cone, this immediate present, has this quality of in each moment complete, unmoving, still, unmoving, And next moment, a change, but that moment too, completely still. Now, Okamura Roshi brings up Utyama Roshi's life at this point in his commentary, and I wanted to relate this to, because it has to do also with what I brought up at the beginning about health and how difficult it is sometimes to see

[46:19]

are changing and are complete, abiding peacefully in each moment at the same time. So Uchiyama Roshi was Okuma Roshi's teacher and he wrote a number of poems, I guess there's a big collection of his poems. This is a poem he wrote at the end of his life when he thought he was dying. He was very, very ill. but he lived another like 16 years, but in very poor health the whole time. So this is his poem called Samadhi of the Treasury of the Radiant Light. Though poor, never poor. Though sick, never sick. Though aging, never aging. Though dying, never dying. Reality prior to division. herein lies unlimited depth. Though poor, never poor.

[47:24]

Though sick, never sick. Though aging, never aging. Though dying, never dying. Reality prior to division, herein lies unlimited depth. So, Just to say something about Uchiyama Roshi, he had very poor health. He was married in his 20s, and his wife, they were going to the university, or he was going to the university, and she contracted tuberculosis and died, and she gave it to him. So he had tuberculosis his whole life. His second wife that he remarried, his second wife also died while she was pregnant. And he lived a very poor life. He only had a job once for about six months teaching philosophy and mathematics at a Catholic school somewhere.

[48:26]

And after that, he never had a livelihood. So he was very poor. Though poor, never poor. Very sick. Never sick. Okamura, she says, he... He would be, you know, he couldn't sit, he would be vomiting blood. He only agreed to be avid of anti-chi for ten years max because his health was so poor he didn't think he could do it, you know, the job. So he was weak, sick, and had all these tragedies in his life. And he can write a poem like this, though poor, never poor, though sick, never sick. So this is our mountains that are constantly at rest and constantly walking in the midst of all the changes and all the tragedies of our lives, all the ups and downs, all the joys.

[49:40]

not just tragedies, all the, everything. What is it that is unchanging, at rest, peacefully abiding in each moment that is not apart from us, that isn't just for the Zen masters, you know, who've got that thing, whatever we think it is, this eternal rest. It's the nature of our reality of existence. the virtue of the mountains. So to be, to find our path that is within the mountains, that is within this interconnected web of our life with all the changes and is still and unmoving and peaceful. and moving and unmoving.

[50:46]

So we can study this, you know, we're studying this as this sutra, this fascicle. And I realized yesterday when I left you all, I thought, you know, devote your energies to a way that indicates the absolute. directly indicates the absolute. And this is to study the Buddha way is to study the self. This mountains and water sutra is Buddha way, Buddha Dharma. And how do we study Buddha Dharma? We study the self. How come we can't study another thing? We could, but to study the self, the self is in the mountains. The self has all the virtues of the constantly at rest and constantly walking. So we start right here. We don't have to go anywhere. We don't have to leave behind the seat that exists and go wandering off to the dusty realms. We have everything we need right here to study the Self.

[51:54]

To study the Buddha way is to study the Self. So we sit together. We create times to sit for days on end. to give us a chance to study the Self as thoroughly as ever we can, resting and changing, constantly walking and constantly at rest. So how do we not forget one side or the other? How can we live out the totality of our life I feel complete, actually.

[52:57]

There's some other notes about boats and darkness. I feel I came to the end of this Dharma talk so well. let us bow together and chant. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[53:49]

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