This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. I returned two days ago from Tassajara Zen Mountain Center How many of you are familiar with Tassajara Zen Mountain Center? Lots of you. And as you may know, there was a fire, or maybe you don't know, but there was a fire, I think it was Wednesday, a fire at the confluence of the Tassajara and Church Creek, which is not that far from Tassajara itself. This is just almost to the date about five years ago from the big, big fire that actually burned through Tassajara.

[01:10]

Many of you probably know that story or have read the book, Fire Monks. Anyway, so here we were again with this possibility of fire coming close to Tassajara. We were very fortunate. All the conditions were right for it not to get out of hand. It was the only fire in the area. Lots of fire, U.S. Fire Service, Cal Fire, state and federal firefighters were there helping. And many, many vehicles, helicopters, airplanes dropping flame retardant and water. ferrying firefighters from Arroyo Seco closer to the fire. Anyway, it was very exciting, you might say, all this activity.

[02:11]

And there was a voluntary evacuation of the guests and any student, really, who wanted to leave was invited to leave. completely voluntary, there was no pressure, it was not mandatory at all. So a number of guests did decide to leave. The workshop, Yoga Zen workshop, I was co-leading, about half the group left. And what I noticed was how contagious, how infectious states of mind are, you know. even though there was no imminent danger, there was a, you know, anxiety, a little panicky fear, you know, the way people were asking questions, body language, should I go, should I stay, the smell of smoke, the sounds of the helicopters, this all contributed to a, even without any,

[03:24]

you know, we were assured, you know, nothing was going to be happening that day or anytime soon. So I just noticed how, you know, my body was feeling and even the words themselves, you know, evacuation and flame retardant or whatever. Anyway, how all these things put together created conditions for challenging states of mind. And also watching the people who were calmly taking it in stride. This is your decision, whatever you'd like to do. And the power of someone who was calmly aware and present and ready for the next, what the next moment might be, listening for the next thing. Without... some leaping forward into what if or anticipation.

[04:27]

So this was interesting to me. The yoga teacher Patricia Sullivan was talking about the word mudra. Mudra is a Sanskrit word for hand gestures, you know, like this is the mudra, this is fearlessness, and this is giving. Sometimes you see that. in a figure and this is a mudra. There's different mudras for practice and in yoga taking certain postures are mudras as well and the mudra both expresses some truth or some practice that you are practicing, the practice of fearlessness or giving and at the same time invokes that, invokes it, summons it, calls it forth in one's own heart and in others.

[05:32]

When you see it, when you see this, it almost has universal meaning. So both manifesting and invoking. And I think our lives are manifesting and invoking through through our gestures, through our body language, through how we stand, how we speak. This communicates and expresses and also invokes or evokes in others. So just the latest news is this fire which was up and down these very, very steep ravines is Yesterday, it was 65% contained, and they're working. It was one of the only fires in the region, so we have lots of people helping. And the guests were not allowed to come in.

[06:35]

People could leave, but we weren't taking any guests. And I think guest season resumes Monday, beginning of the week, so all is well. And the firefighters are going to be camping out at the flats and eating with the students and using the baths and about a team of about 20, which is very nice because, you know, they carry everything they need. I called them MRIs yesterday, but it's MREs. And they get to not eat that, but eat with the students and have tasara food. So... Just, that's an update for everyone, and if you didn't even know it was happening, all is well. But there was really an upswelling around the world. It was on Facebook, Zen Center's Facebook page, and people were writing in and so concerned about this beloved home, spiritual home and practice place, people wanting to do something.

[07:43]

And if you'd like to do anything, you can donate to Tassajara Capital Campaign for Dharma Rain, which is the system of sprinklers that we're trying to raise money for to protect all the buildings. So you're invited to do that if you'd like. Today, this afternoon at three o'clock, we have a bodhisattva initiation ceremony. This is also called lay ordination, and Furuyu Schrader will be conducting it. She's the preceptor for four new baby bodhisattvas who are here, I think. There's Cynthia Hager, Schuyler Golson, Alf Watt, and David,

[08:44]

Kaizenga. Kaizenga. So this is a ceremony in which these people will receive a new name. They will receive a new clothes, the Raksu, the... Buddha's robe that they've sewn themselves by hand that is, it's worn around the neck. You've seen people here probably and other places wearing them. And they also receive, those gifts are to prepare for the receiving of the Bodhisattva precepts, which comes after they receive new name and new clothes. and then they receive the precepts, and then a paper, a lineage paper, which shows that they're now part of this bodhisattva family of people who have received the precepts.

[09:51]

The precepts is called a blood vein. So it's like family. The blood of the precepts flows in the family, all the descendants, all the ancestors. all the way back to Shakyamuni Buddha. Erica, you don't have to leave. She has her new baby with her. So in the ceremony, it starts out with, Fu will say after some bowing and all shall say, invoking the presence and compassion of our ancestors. In faith that we are Buddha, we enter Buddha's way. And this invoking, to invoke the presence and compassion of our ancestors means to summon them to be witness, to come and support these new baby bodhisattvas who are part of the family, will be part of the family of...

[11:03]

Bodhisattvas, please be with us now. All these teachers and bodhisattvas who manifest and invoke and express wisdom and compassion and realized action, come, be here now. So they're kind of called. Invoking is to invoke God, to call, to call upon. So looking at our lives, each day of our lives, we are called upon. We're called upon in many, many ways. We're called upon to be present with... our family, our friends, with the earth, with ourselves and our own emotions, our own struggles.

[12:07]

In fact, call and response, we say come up together. When there's a call, there's a response, almost like call and response, together. Not first there's a call, then response, but when there's a call, there's a response. This is in a poem. It says, when the wooden man begins to sing, the stone woman gets up dancing. This is call and response. And right now there's call and response. Whatever's happening here, there's call and response. I'm responding to you, you're responding to me, I'm calling and you're calling too. Just by being here. just by driving out here today or coming into this room, is a call, invoking. So this ceremony, we say, after receiving the precepts and Buddha's robe, now you can really work, now you can really work for the benefit of all beings, is a...

[13:22]

maybe you've been making this effort, but now you're going to be really accountable to all the other, and very visible, too, by wearing this robe. But the robe, the robe is just saying, I'm here for you. The robe is kind of a call and a response at the same time. So I wanted to tell two Zen stories that exemplify call and response. And sometimes these Zen koans or stories, we get very mixed up with these Chinese names that we're not familiar with and things that happened thousands of years ago. One story is about someone who lived in the 600s in China and the other is the 800s. in China.

[14:24]

That's a long time ago. But these stories have been passed on just like other stories have been passed on from even earlier, right? We have stories from much earlier. And if a story is true and both manifests and invokes is a mudra or an archetype, you might say, archetype, mudra, accurate story, it will be passed on. and will be reflected on and pondered and turned and dreamt about. So, these two stories, probably, you know, the whole lecture could be about one of the stories, but they come up together for me because they're illustrating a point that I've been noticing and working with, and they both illustrate it from different sides, so I'm going to tell them both.

[15:29]

You don't have to remember any of the names or anything, just whatever comes in, that's your story to work with. So there's this famous, very famous line that you can find in different commentaries and things, which is, to taste for yourself whether the water is cold or warm. This is kind of a description of our practice. We have to practice ourselves. We can't get it from somebody else or a book or a Dharma talk. That can just create conditions that are where we're ripe, but we have to taste it ourselves. We have to tell somebody, oh yeah, the water's cold, isn't good enough. You have to taste whether the water's cold or warm.

[16:35]

So this particular line, this phrase, which comes up much later, comes from this particular story. So the first story I'm going to... talk about is between the sixth ancestor, Huyneng. It's a Chinese ancestor from the 600s, 638 to 713 in China. And many of you know, there's stories about Huyneng. But this particular part of the story, I just kind of leapt out at me in the last few days. even though I knew the story, but this part of it was exemplifying something that I wanted to reflect on in turn. So just briefly, who Huy Nung was, he was a poor man, young man, maybe in his 20s, illiterate, living in a town, taking care of his mother.

[17:42]

I think he... was the only support of his mother. And he collected firewood probably from nearby forests and sold firewood. And one day he was in the marketplace and he overheard a monk, a Buddhist practitioner, chanting lines from the Diamond Sutra and about the mind of no abode. And he was very struck by this and, you know, it changed his life. He asked the monk, who was your teacher? And the monk told him it was the fifth ancestor, Hongren, Chinese fifth ancestor in this lineage of passing the teaching on from teacher to teacher, from Shakyamuni Buddha. And he, Hui Nung, made arrangements for his mother's care. That's one of the details of the story that I appreciated.

[18:44]

And then he set off to where the fifth ancestor's temple was. Huang Mei is the name of the temple. And not to tell a whole other story, but he had a good encounter with the fifth ancestor. Fifth ancestor recognized his understanding. And here he was, this newbie, young, in his 20s, I think, shabby, poor, illiterate person. but clear understanding. And the fifth ancestor, in his wisdom, said, why don't you go pound rice in the rice-pounding area, kind of keep quiet. And then the fifth ancestor devised a kind of contest of poem writing, and although Huenang couldn't write, he dictated his poem and kind of proved his understanding again. The fifth ancestor, at midnight, went to the rice place where the rice pounding was going and transmitted the robe and bowl, which are symbolic of the transmission of dharma.

[20:03]

And being a successor, gave these to Huinang and then thought, this is not going to go over that well in the monastery. This is this very new person, and there's many other students who have been training here for a long time and are taking a lot of responsibility, and I have good understanding. But I think it's probably better they don't know that I just transmitted to this fellow who just kind of showed up the other day. So Holmgren, the fifth ancestor, spirited him away. He rode him away to kind of take him out of the monastery. And there's a wonderful Sumi ink drawing, painting, by Sengai of Hongren, kind of rowing away, and had Rui Nung in the back, holding onto his bowl, sort of looking like, what happened? You know, he's kind of sitting in the back of the boat. Anyway, so word did get out the next day, and the head monk of the temple, Ming,

[21:09]

Reverend Ming, who had been a general before he was a monk, was really, really angry about this and kind of set off to get back these kind of stolen goods, the robe and bowl of the teacher. He was going to get them back, and he chased him down, chased down Hui Nung. So Hui Nung kind of heard him coming, and he... set down the robe and the bowl on a rock. And he said to Ming, the Dharma does not reside, this is symbolic of the Dharma, take them if you want. It's no use fighting over these or taking them by force, take them. And Ming said, tried to lift them up and he couldn't lift them.

[22:17]

And he had a huge kind of reaction. The commentary said he was terrified and trembling and sweat was pouring down his body and he said he had a kind of turn. And he said to Hui Nung, I didn't come for the Roman bull, I came for the Dharma. Hui Nung said, and then he said, please, teach me. And Hui Nung said, right now, don't think good, don't think evil. What is the true face, what is the true self of Ming? And at that point, Ming had a kind of big realization of his true self. And he prostrated himself and was crying, was very moved by this.

[23:22]

And he said, do you have any other thing to guide me or teach me, any other secret? And Huynang said, there's nothing secret. What I've said is there's nothing secret. This secret is right within you. This is who you are. And Ming said, I've been practicing a long time at this temple with the community of monks, and I've never been able to realize my true nature. Oh, lay brother. Sui Nung was a layman. Oh, lay brother, will you be my teacher? You are my teacher now. And Hui Nang said, this is very good that you speak this way. However, both of our teachers are Hong Gran, the fifth ancestor. Both of our teachers are at this temple, Hong Mei.

[24:27]

So... This is this story, and you know, what's legendary, what's true, doesn't really matter. This is a teaching story to ponder. And you know, this point where the layman Hui Nung, he had this person prostrating before him saying, oh, I owe everything to you. You're my teacher now. And he didn't abrogate that, is that word? He didn't take that, oh, oh, and be puffed up about it. Oh, my first disciple has come right here. He very wisely and very carefully said, our teacher, we're together here practicing. studying the way, studying the self. Our teacher is the fifth ancestor. He didn't, and this is a kind of family way, speaking of the family tradition, this, you wait, you don't, even if you have been empowered to ordain or take disciples, the oral teaching is you wait.

[25:53]

Even though you have the power, you don't exercise it right away. You settle, you integrate. And this is a kind of traditional, customary, wise, I think, way to help somebody and protect this baby bodhisattva, baby new teacher, to protect them from what can happen if you move too quickly. and make a mudra that invokes and invokes things that you're not ready to handle maybe, even with good realization. So it's said that Hui Nung, the way he spoke with Ming was like, with grandmother mind, it was like a grandmother, and this is a Chinese image, who peels a lychee nut, takes out the seed, and pops it in your mouth.

[26:55]

So carefully, so gently, really. And this last point, especially where both of our teachers are the fifth ancestor, we're kind of, we're just continuing our practice together rather than raising himself up in any way. So that's the first story that I... wanted to say in this point of Hui Nung's waiting and hiding the light. And he did. He was told by his teacher to wait and he did. He didn't surface as a teacher until many years later. So just integrating, integrating, just practicing quietly and working within without having to make a big splash anywhere. until the time is right. And that's appropriate response.

[27:58]

The other story is a little, starts out a little different, but actually I realize it ends kind of the same. And this is a story about another teacher a couple hundred years later. And the two teachers here are Fa Yan and Xuanzha, also Chinese. Fa Yan was very famous, one of the, he began one of the five Chinese schools of Zen, Fa Yan, and there's a lot of different stories about him, one you may know. You know, these phrases that come from these stories are then used, just like poetry, you know, where you hearken back to an image that a poet used. And it's like an homage and also the newest turn in this context. But it reverberates through time and space.

[29:06]

So this particular... The story of Fayyan, he was lost in a snowstorm when he was on pilgrimage, and the abbot of that temple, Dijang, said, what are you doing, you and your friends? He said, I'm going on pilgrimage. And Dijang said, what are you doing that for? And Fayyan said, I don't know. And Dijang said, not knowing is nearest, or not knowing is most intimate. So that little phrase... You can hear, or if you learn it by heart, you can draw upon it when you need it, which I would say we need it every day, every moment. Not knowing is nearest. Not knowing is most intimate, rather than the way it's so easy to cast out everything we know and expect and assume and presume and then...

[30:07]

find that it's a big confusion and miss. Not knowing where we listen for the next thing to unfold is nearest, most intimate. So this is Fayan. And in this story, it's about his encounter with Schwansa, who became a teacher in his own right. So Schwansa was practicing at Fayan's temple. And he was... But taking responsibility, he was the director, probably, or it might be a treasurer-director kind of job, senior position in the temple. And one day Fayyan came up to him and said, how long have you been in the community here? How long have you been in the temple? And Xuanzang said, I've been here about three years. And Fayyan said, oh, three years? How is it that you've never come to speak with me? There is Fayan, the abbot, and Schwansa had never come for a personal interview, one-on-one interview, or to ask a question or anything.

[31:13]

And Schwansa said to Fayan, I cannot deceive you, teacher. I really, with Qian Fang, another teacher, I, you know, experienced great peace and joy and, you know, I don't need to come talk to you." So Fai Yan said, oh, aha. And on what words did you enter and realize? So Xuanzat said, well, I asked Chiang Feng, what is the self of the student? What is the self of the student? This is like asking, what is the self the self, what is my true self? What is the self of the student? And Xianfeng said, the fire boy seeks for fire.

[32:16]

So Fa Yan said, very good words, but I don't think you understood what he said. And Xuanzang was like really, well, you know, fire boy seeks for fire, The fire boy's nature is fire, and he seeks for fire. Fire seeks for fire, and the self is the nature of true self, and the true self seeks for self. And Fa Yan said, oh, now for sure I know that you really didn't understand. And Xuanzang got, it says in one translation, overwrought, really upset, and I picture him just stormy out of there, kind of... flapping his sleeves and slamming the gate and going off, leaving the community. While he's walking down the path, and it's not sure how long this was, an hour or two, a day, it doesn't say, but while he's walking away, he begins to think, you know, Fayan is the guiding teacher for many, many students.

[33:26]

Maybe, I don't know, maybe he was trying to, point out something, point out an error. I think I'm going to go back. Yeah, I'm going back. So he turns around and heads on back to the temple. And he finds Fayan again. And this time he prostrates himself in front of Fayan, full bowing, full prostration, with the head down to the ground and in repentance, for his actions. And Fayan said, ask your question. And Schwansa said, what is the self of the student? And Fayan said, the fire boy seeks for fire. And at that moment, Schwansa had some

[34:30]

a deep understanding of the nature of self, his true self. So these two stories, you know, in some way mirror each other. One is the attitude of Hui Nung of not, no arrogance. Arrogance is a kind of taking what is not given You take upon yourself importance and a position, a Dharma position that isn't been given, that isn't yours, but you take it and occupy it in some way. But Hway Nung let that go and stayed grounded. And even when someone said, you're my teacher now, he said, we study with The two of us studied with this other teacher. In contrast to, and Ming, you know, was bowing and seeking.

[35:36]

Fire boy seeking fire, I think, was Ming as well. He came with bravado, wanting to take the robe and bowl, and then realized this isn't the way, and settled and said, teach me, you know. This is a kind of seeking not for self. you know, for power, for just seeking the Dharma, ways seeking mind. And in the other story, Schwansa, in just, you know, looking at the two, had, was, you know, considered himself above, you know, he didn't even go to ask any questions about, he's just working away there, but completely full of himself, puffed up, But what was his understanding? There may have been some, and I think there was some intellectual understanding, but he hadn't, you know, Ming, when he understood from Huinang, had said, I studied for so long, and now, at last, I know personally whether the water, drinking the water, I know personally whether it's cold or warm.

[36:58]

This is Ming with Weinang, personally understood whether the water was not an intellectual understanding, that they say it's warm, they say it's cold, okay, I accept that and I think about that and talk about that, but he knew personally. And I think the same thing happened with Xuanzang. He knew in a kind of intellectual way Our own true nature is not different from Buddha nature, let's say, or not that we have Buddha nature, but we are awakened nature, this teaching, understanding it intellectually and being able to talk about it. But he hadn't found his way-seeking mind. He hadn't truly been seeking, seeking for the Dharma. But when he turned on the path and came back, he was truly seeking.

[38:00]

He must have something to teach me. Maybe I don't quite understand it. He had kind of come down out of the clouds and grounded, grounded, grounded enough that he bowed. Not only had he not given the teacher an opportunity, he hadn't taken the opportunity to speak to the teacher he had, now he was prostrating himself, which is a kind of mudra that expresses something, expresses, I don't know everything. I'm not complete in my understanding. I want to study more. And also, please help me. So it invokes and it expresses that mudra of full bowing. And in that mudra he asked his question, what is the self of the student? Truly seeking, truly being fire boy, seeking fire.

[39:07]

The nature of the fire boy, which is sometimes called fire spirit or fire apprentice, is... It was a job in the monastery of lighting the lamps and taking care of the fire. The fire boy seeks fire. So these kind of pitfalls of our practice, arrogance, over-intellectualization, and also if someone is very bright and it can become really a stumbling block in some way because You figure it out so fast already before your own way-seeking mind has asked the questions you need to ask. You're already two steps ahead. But you haven't tasted whether the water is warm or cold. It's thinking.

[40:12]

So without thinking good, without thinking evil, What is your true? What is your true self? So these stories now become one story for me, obviously. They keep reflecting each other in different ways. This point about understanding intellectually but not experiencing for yourself in the commentaries on the Xuansa and Fayan story, Fire Boy Seeks Fire, in various commentaries, it's emphasized or it's said, if Buddhism were like this, or if the practice or the teaching were like this, it would never have lasted this long. Because it's not alive. It's not alive. Fire Boy Seeks Fire, da-da-da, great. So how do we make it alive?

[41:16]

How do we live it? How do we live out our way-seeking mind, not seeking for status or position or to be the one who knows and who should be praised and bowed to, but living it out just with an endless, sincere wish to follow the path and study, study with whoever, whoever can teach you. Doesn't matter if it's a child or an older person or a tree, whoever can teach, whatever can teach, to be open rather than, I already understand, thank you very much. Buddhism and our practice will never last if that's the attitude. So the seeking is not out of selfish concern or self-aggrandizement or gaining idea.

[42:23]

It's the seeking to, it's wisdom seeking wisdom. So I'm searching for my... While I was at Tassajara, I got a call, speaking of call and response. As I was saying, every moment is call and response. And I got a call about an old friend who was diagnosed with terminal cancer and was given, you know, I don't know if you can ever exactly believe, but six months to a year to live. So hearing this at Tassahara, while I was talking about call and response with the Yoga Zen retreat, was feeling my response, the literal call, and then how do we respond?

[43:42]

Each one of us has received a call like that or will. about a loved one, or about ourselves, or this is our human life together, this is not so unusual, this is not surprising. But each time, how do we respond? What is our mudra of response? Can we receive that? And not knowing not knowing what the response is, how can not knowing be most intimate? Not trying to fix it, ignore it, run away, you know, how can we stand, sit, be there? So, after hearing this that same day, Patricia in the Yoga Zen Workshop read a poem by William Stafford which

[44:49]

as poems do, just came in kind of full force to meet me as I was turning this news. And I wanted to learn it by heart, which I did all the way up from Tassar. It was Friday afternoon, I was in traffic. I had it next to me and I'd recite. And so I will do my best to recite it with you, to you. And it's also posted on the bulletin boards if you want to take a look. It's called Being a Person by William Stafford. Be a person here. Stand by the river. Invoke the owls. Invoke the winter and spring. Let any season that wants to come here make its own call.

[45:56]

After that sound goes away, wait. A slow bubble rises through the earth and begins to include the sky, the stars, all space, and even the outracing, expanding thought. Come back and hear the little sound again. Suddenly, the dream you are having matches everyone's dream, and the result is the world. If a different call came, there would be no world or you or the river or the owls calling. How you stand is important.

[47:01]

How you listen to the next thing to happen. How you breathe. I always feel poems merit a second hearing, so I'm going to recite it again. Be a person here. Stand by the river. Invoke the owls. Invoke the winter and spring. Let any season that wants to come here make its own call. After that sound, goes away, wait. A slow bubble rises through the earth and begins to include the sky, the stars, all space, and even the outracing, expanding thought.

[48:10]

Come back and listen and hear the little sound again. Suddenly, the dream you are dreaming matches everyone's dream, and the result is the world. If a different call came, there would be no world, no you, no river, no owl's calling. How you stand is important. How you listen to the next thing to happen, how you breathe. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support.

[49:19]

and click giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[49:23]

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