So, well, I have a story that wasn't supposed to happen. It was kind of a big surprise. I saw you last Sunday, and then the next day, during the week I hoped would be pretty uneventful, I got these symptoms, and then I tested positive for COVID. So I have been isolated in my apartment for this entire week. I'm feeling... quite a bit better today. This first day I've actually felt pretty well, which is why I'm here. I feel pretty well. And, you know, mainly what I've been able to do this week is sort of do a little bit of reading, not much, because, you know, COVID kind of takes your enthusiasm for much of everything, eating and life. So that's coming back. But I could look outside at the My neighbors walking around kind of wistfully thinking, oh, it'll be nice when I can go outside again.

[01:17]

So anyway, I know a lot of you've gone through this. It's certainly, it's uptick has happened. And we've had quite a few folks here. I don't know what the total right now is, but less than 20, but still quite a few older people with COVID. So we've all been trying our best to keep each other safe and take care of each other. So that part's very sweet, as often it is. So I was feeling better today, so I was able to pull together a few thoughts about this next chapter in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. And I'm still going to need to count on all of you to come up with some questions and comments to help fill in the gaps in our time that we have right now. But I also wanted to let you know that starting tomorrow, I'm going to be giving a class for Zen Center online, a four-week class. every Monday evening in July, up until the 23rd of July. I think the last class is the 22nd of July.

[02:19]

Anyway, if you're interested, it's going to be Dongshan's Song of the Jewel Mirror Samadhi, which we've talked about together some years back. But if you'd like a refresher, I'm going to go over a lot of those teachings and go through the poem, the beautiful poem. and talk about, again, about the two truths and the five ranks and that sort of thing. So you're more than welcome. Class is from 6 to 7.30. And you can sign up online if you're interested. So, this week's talk by Suzuki Roshi is called Mistakes in Practice. And it begins with him saying, It is when your practice is rather greedy that you become discouraged with it. So you should be grateful that you have a sign. or a warning signal to show you the weak point in your practice. As I was reading that opening sentence, I was remembered about this meeting that happened quite a few years ago now with a new student outside the entryway to Cloud Hall at Green Gulch Farm.

[03:26]

So Cloud Hall, for those of you who haven't been to Green Gulch or stayed over at Green Gulch, is the main residency for the new students who are coming to practice Zen. or more often, coming to see if they might be interested in practicing Zen or if there's anything about what we're doing that's interesting to them. I would often say to the practice committee when we would talk about some of the newer students and their seeming lack of enthusiasm for particularly the schedule, which starts quite early in the morning, the work mostly out was okay, and then sometimes with the other students. And so we'd talk about how they were doing. And I would say to them, you know, it's going to take them a while to figure out if they're even Buddhists, let alone if they're interested in the Zen training program. So anyway, as I was leaving Cloud Hall with Reb, this young woman stepped onto the wooden portion of the entryway with her shoes on. For those of you who've been to Cloud Hall, you know that that's a no-no. But of course, nobody else would know that because how would you know?

[04:30]

So Rev looked at her and he said that she should take her shoes off on the paved part of the entryway and then step barefooted onto the wood, you know. So what was surprising, that wasn't surprising. I was used to that. But what was surprising is that she looked up at us, at Rev and I, and she smiled. And she said, thank you. He and I walked away and we were like, oh, that's nice. That was different. So showing or telling students or anybody about the weak points of their practice is part of the Zen training program. But most often telling them something doesn't seem to make them particularly happy. I think, knowing myself as well, I think we feel somewhat ashamed or embarrassed that we don't already know. all of the guidelines or the forms, which are, in fact, a great many. And they've been designed over many centuries so that you couldn't possibly know all of them on arrival, let alone after being there for quite some time.

[05:32]

So the purpose of the forms is to allow for us to communicate with each other in ways that eventually, we hope, will support the whole of the community to live in harmony together. I mean, that's the idea. That's the hope. And so forms include a great many things, such as how much noise you make, and what time to show up for work, and what to be wearing when you come to work, and when to sit, and how to work safely, and so on. There's pages and pages of guidelines we call guidelines for practice. So people often think that Zen is about sitting, and that's true to a point, but really it's about what you do when you get up from sitting. how you behave with each other, how you affect with each other, which is pretty much when you live in community, just about every minute of the day. And at Tassajara, it's pretty clear. It's not just every minute of the day, it's every single minute.

[06:34]

Well, I guess it is every minute of the day, but it certainly feels like there's much going on even while you're sleeping in terms of... taking responsibilities for your behavior and taking care of your room and all of that sort of thing. So when this young woman looked up and smiled at us, you know, we just were really delighted by that response. And it got me to thinking that what was unusual about her response for us and including for myself is that she accepted the criticism as support and she received the support with gratitude. And even with affection. So I don't know. What? Someone said something? I think it might have been Ying. Okay. So I don't know if I have spoken to you all before about the years that I was taking art classes after my former partner, Dr. Grace Damman, had this very bad car accident, which put her in the hospital for quite a long time.

[07:42]

So I was home a lot, and I found that studying drawing and calligraphy and doing a lot of cooking were very good things that I could do at home while caring for Grace and for my daughter, our young daughter, who was just starting high school. So it was during my art class that I was taught the difference between criticism and critique. And for those of you who have done art, you know there's quite a difference between those two things. Criticism is defined as finding the faults in someone or something in a disapproving way. Where critique, on the other hand, is a detailed assessment of something with the spirit of helping the person, in my experience, to produce a more inspiring outcome. So it wasn't long before I realized that much of our usual way of talking and teaching the forms of Zen... at Zen Center has slipped into criticism and away from critique. And I think this is a mistake that many of us make, and not only in Zen, but in child raising and work and family relationships and in sports and all kinds of ways that we meet with one another.

[08:54]

And so in my art class, in the beginning days of me wanting to learn how to draw and how to paint, I had painted a red apple on a blue background. And I thought the apple was pretty good, but it did seem to be floating in the blue sky. So the teacher asked us to put our artwork up on this ledge that was along the side of the classroom. And she said that we were going to critique each other's work. And I said to her, oh, I'd rather not. Thank you anyway. You know, thinking how embarrassing it would be to have someone criticize me for my floating red apple, you know. But then the teacher said to me, explained to me, she was a wonderful teacher. that she and the other students were going to be helping each other. And so sure enough, I put my apple on the ledge and someone said, I really like your apple, but maybe you could put a little shadow under it and see what happens. So I did that as the person suggested. And as if by magic, my apple was no longer floating in the sky.

[09:56]

It was sitting on the ground. It's amazing. It's just amazing. And it was such a sweet way to learn, you know, together. With help. And so I think Suzuki Roshi is talking about using the gift of critique to look at our practice in order to help ourselves arrive at the true goal of our life. You know, goals like consistency and sincerity and accountability and our selflessness, basically, at the bottom of all of that selflessness. This isn't all about me. This is about how I can be of use to others. That's our vow. So in order to live a life devoted to the welfare of others and not just to our self-centered ambitions, it's very helpful to learn how to learn and how to be critiqued by people you trust and how to critique others, how to be trustworthy. So he then says it's especially important not to have self-centered ambition when it comes to Buddhist practice.

[10:59]

And he says right away in his talk that it's not unusual for students to set up idealistic expectations for themselves, some goal that we strive to achieve. And the only problem is that once you achieve it, you will quite naturally set up another goal even further away than the first one was and further away from your real life. So each gaining idea, as he calls these goals, this gaining, I'm going to gain this goal, each gaining idea begs the next gaining idea to appear even further up ahead. So when we live in that way, we're always missing out on what's happening right now. And there's a saying in Zen that I used to wonder about, and I think I'm starting to get it, that the arrow has flown past Korea. You've shot the arrow past Korea, meaning that you way overshot your target. Whatever you're trying to hit at, you just way, you're going way out of range, way out of whatever it was you were trying to do.

[12:01]

So Suzuki Roshi then says that what is even worse is to practice in competition with someone else or with everyone else. You know, there is a lot of unspoken competition in practicing Zen, given that practitioners are human beings. And we often notice, you know, who is getting the better housing or the job we want or getting more attention from the teacher and that kind of things, you know. I even read somewhere that, you know, monasteries are very competitive places. And that, well, that doesn't sound quite right. But having lived in one for a long time is that, yeah, I think that's the truth. A lot of competition. And that's a signal that there's something going on in your practice that you need to take care of. So in truth, it's the students who I have practiced with over decades that just keep showing up for work and for sitting and to be of help to others that I have really come to admire the most. They're just there. And I think many of the brightest and quickest of the newer students just often leave.

[13:07]

They have something better to do. some better ideas of what they can do with their lives. You know, lots of goals up ahead and off they go. I think it's not that they're wrong, but I never did get a chance to see how well they did in maturing themselves and in learning to care for other people. So Roshi says that whether we find joy in practice or not, whether we're encouraged or not, tired or not, we just do it. Becoming tired of the daily routine and then discouraged with ourselves are the warning signs to show us the weak point in our practice, the sign that our practice has become idealistic. He says that when the time comes, we should forget about the mistake and renew our commitment to the way. He also recommends having a teacher who can help correct your practice, as Reb did with the young woman, and as he often did with me. Sometimes felt a little rough, but mostly quite kind.

[14:09]

Either way, I took his words to heart to see if they matched my own intention and my own commitment to live a life of service to others. So when Grace had her automobile accident, those many years ago now... The Zen center abbot at the time said to me that grace was very lucky to have me. And I said to him, in all honesty, it wasn't being funny, I said grace is lucky that I have taken vows. And I think that that was true, that taking vows, the bodhisattva precepts, works on us in the same way as a teacher does. It's like an internalized teacher of centuries and centuries of intention and value. And so those vows become your inside like Jiminy Cricket for Pinocchio, kind of whispering ethical and ethical values in your ear as you begin to misbehave. I think I've told you that story about the teacher who told his young monks to run off and steal some money from him because he was getting old and he really needed some money for his old age.

[15:23]

And they said, well, you told us not to steal. And he said, oh, well, in this case, if you love me, it's okay. It's okay for you to help me by taking money from those who have a lot. So go find a place by the road to hide where no one sees you and then just jump out and take their wallets. Don't hurt anybody, but just take the money and then come back. So as the students were about to dash off, one of the boys just stood there and the teacher said, don't you love me? Don't you want to help me? And the young boy said, I do, Roshi, but there's one problem. There's no place I can go where I can hide that no one will see me. And the teacher said, what do you mean? And the boy said, well, I'll see myself. And the teacher smiled and, you know, kind of patted him on the head. And he said to the other students, here's the one who's learned from me. Here's the one who actually understands the teaching. So, you know, he was testing the boys. And some people feel that wasn't fair. It's not a nice thing for a teacher to do. But it's a story.

[16:24]

It's a real story from the Buddhist tradition. And I think it's, at the point of it, I think it's a really good one. You know, there's no place for us to hide from ourselves. You know, we know. We know. You know, there is a Jiminy Cricket sitting on our shoulder telling us, that's not a good idea, you know. And then Roshi quotes Dogenzenji, who said, do not think you will necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment. Do not think you will necessarily be aware of your own enlightenment. Meaning that even if you see no signs or any evidence of any kind that you are beginning to evolve, develop into your practice, that something is actually happening, that you're becoming a real boy or a real girl, you know. Still, you have your own true enlightenment within practice itself. Practice is enlightenment, and enlightenment is practice. So he then outlines the four types of practice that are recorded in the old wisdom tradition of the Pali canon.

[17:27]

The best kind of practice is to do it without having any joy, not even spiritual joy. And in that way, you have no self-centeredness at all. You know, I enjoy this practice. You're not thinking that way. You're not experiencing your practice that way. The next best is to have some physical joy and some mental joy in your practice and so that you feel good when you're practicing. The third way is to have both mental and physical joy in your practice and that it's good enough. You know, it's not good, good or great, but it's good enough. And then the first stage of practice, you have no thinking and no curiosity about your practice at all. You just start to do it. That's where most of us begin. It's like, I don't know about this. It's just really odd. I still remember the first time I sat in the Zendo at the city center after going to Zazen instruction. I decided I would go that next week in the evening to the 5, I think it's 5.30 Zazen maybe. I can't remember what time it is in the city, but anyway, I showed up and they gave me a seat and I was like, this is weird shit.

[18:36]

This is really, really weird. But I kept coming back. So that's the really weird part. I don't know why. Just something about it, something about being there was intriguing. It still is intriguing. So being discouraged by practice is kind of like having a toothache, which is telling you that your teeth need some care and it's time to go to the dentist. And if we come to realize that the cause of conflict in our world is due to our having some one-sided view about issues that concern us, you know, by holding on to a strong opinion about things, then when we hold views, then we're likely to argue. And when we argue, we are likely to quarrel. And when we quarrel, there may be harm. And therefore, as the Buddha said, I hold no views for or against anything. So the way I've understood that teaching in particular, because it certainly is a hot... ticket item for us these days, given the state of the world and the state of this country and the state of many countries.

[19:36]

I have a lot of views. So how do I deal with the fact that I do have views? But I think that the key here is not holding them. Not holding them. Holding views is kind of, if you imagine, you know, I like to use the example of a butterfly. If you imagine having a view as like a butterfly, you can offer your views, you know, open-handed. And that's just fine. In fact, you should. And you should offer them with enthusiasm and with conviction and so on. But if you hold your views like that, you know, that's not so good. And that's certainly not so good for the butterfly. So. OK, the next thing I wanted to say was about the end of Roshi's talk, where he says there is no particular way in true practice. You should fit your own way. Oh no, excuse me. You should find your own way and you should know what kind of practice you have right now. By knowing both the advantages and the disadvantages of your own special practice, you can engage wholeheartedly without any danger.

[20:45]

However, if you only hold to one side the advantages of your way, you know, your way being the best way or the good way, then eventually you will find the disadvantages, and you will become discouraged when it's too late. So he says, this is silly. We should be grateful that the ancient teachers pointed this out for us. They critiqued us so that this practice might continue forever. So I invite you, please, I'm going to go on a gallery view. Karina, can you put me on gallery view so I can... Just be in the gallery. Great. Thank you. Much better. So I'd love to hear from any of you who would like to just, you just, you know, you don't even have to put your hand up. It's okay. You did mean, not a problem, but you just unmute and, and go ahead and speak. So Dean, please. I was getting ready to say good morning, but it's not morning.

[21:49]

So I would like you to talk about, I heard you say discouraged by practice or you read discouraged by practice. I would like you to talk about discouraged by practice versus discouraged. Period. Yeah. Well, it sort of puts a center point on your life, which if you don't have that center point, it's sort of like discouraged by what? Yeah. oh, this or that, or I couldn't find what I was looking for at the store, or my best friend didn't call me. I mean, you can just be discouraged all day long, right? But if I have by practice, then I kind of know there's a center point. There's something there for me that I've accepted into my life. You know, if I think my life is revolving, like, you know, the center of a record or something, around practice, then everything's in relationship to that center point. rather than just kind of all over the place, uncentered, discouraged, just generalized discouragement.

[22:53]

I mean, I prefer having my discouragement in relationship to my practice, even though I can't say exactly what my practice is, but I can say all those things that relate to it, you know, in particular, and precepts, and, oh, for one, for 16. Does that help? I'm not sure because I don't generally feel discouraged with practice. It's not something that has happened very often. However, I have felt discouraged. So I don't know whether translating one to the other or the other to one. Or is something that can be done and I'm not sure how to do it.

[23:54]

It's sort of like people talk about inside the gate versus outside the gate. There's not really a difference between inside the gate or outside the gate, except there's a gate that at Berkeley you push open and you go through and then you turn around and close it out to yourself. But I... Where's the practice for you in that metaphor? Excuse me? Where's the practice? Are you pointing to practice in that metaphor, the inside the gate, outside the gate? Well, when I think of inside the gate, outside the gate, it feels all encompassing. It just feels like one thing. But when I. I don't know how I would use discouraged by practice as opposed to discouraged by. I guess I don't, I can't make that shift. And I could see that there would be something there because I would have something to point it to.

[24:58]

But if I can't find something in my active practice to see discouraged as discouraging, then I don't know what to do with it. a sense of discouragement. Well, in my way of thinking about what you're asking, the discouragement is a target for your practice. Just like, you know, boredom is a target for my practice or being overly zealous is a target for my practice. Greed, hate, and delusion are the targets for our practice. It's like, how do you work with discouragement would be your practice. So rather than have it be something separate or different than, It is you practice with discouragement. You practice with all of your different emotions and your tendencies and so on. That's why I think of it as being the center or the pivot of all those different things, all the challenges that arise throughout the day.

[26:00]

So making just the mild, for my mind, transition of rather than discourage by practice is discouraged in practice. Because I'm practicing and I have some discouragement, but it doesn't really, it isn't about my practice. It is, if anything, it's about not strongly following my practice. Well, yeah, that's kind of getting close to what I think is meant here by discouraged about my practice. Like, I'm not doing it right. I'm not getting anywhere. You know, I don't know why I'm doing it. All that kind of thing. That's kind of discouraged about doing the practice or engaging. If you're committed to the practice, and you have been lifelong for most of your adult life now, you know, that is what you do with all those different things that arise. You practice with them. Right?

[27:01]

So I... understand why you'd say you're not discouraged by your practice. Your practice is like, is that the solvent that you use to, to work on things that are difficult. Okay. Okay. You're welcome. Hello, Sangha. It's happy to be with you all. I'm very happy to be with you all again Sunday. I was wondering, Fu, I was reading the Keizan's Zazen Yojinki. I'm not sure how you say it, but what notes on what to be aware of in Zazen. And there was one, a few lines here that I thought were very interesting. I was wondering if you could comment on. He says... avoid getting caught up in arts and crafts, prescribing medicines and fortune telling, and stay away from songs and dancing, arguing and babbling, fame and game.

[28:12]

All of which I thought very good, very good advice. And I especially am interested in my sitting specifically, and I think I may have mentioned this to you and others, Karina before, it seems like what remains, what's the stickiest, is music. Songs and those sorts of things. So it feels like when I listen to this, I'm torn when I read it, where I'm like, yes, I understand. I see how in clarifying and in settling how songs and arts can really... It's easier to hold on to than other things that we may engage in. So I'm wondering how you would comment on that. Well, you're talking about all the things I like to do. I thought it would be a good question, right?

[29:17]

When I read that, I was like, oh, man, you're always challenging me. Well, you know, Kezon was a monastic. And I think Suzuki Roshi... trained as a monastic, but he didn't live as a monastic. And I think it's one of the things that we've missed out on understanding as we've imported Zen into our lives and into this culture, is that there's a difference between monastic practice and the end of the practice period when you go back to live with your family and your kids and you're going out with your friends and so on and so forth. So I've seen the monks. I've seen the monks when they're not in practice period. They come to America and they're delightful and they like to play and they like to sing and some of They're very good at the guitar and all kinds of things. So, you know, I think Kazon, and there was and there is, then there can be and you can choose to be a monk and to do monastic practice. You know, I was a monk when I was at Tassajara. I didn't play music. I didn't do art. I didn't. Any of those things you read? What were the other ones?

[30:19]

Battling and arguing. I think we could always stay away from that. Some of those. Yeah. I did quite a bit of babbling and arguing, but only my day off. Otherwise, we weren't talking. So, you know, when I was in the monastery, I was a monk, and I felt that. And when I left the monastery, I have ordained. I'm a priest, and I'm a temple priest. And I work with children, and I've done art, and I've done all kinds of things and music and stuff. And I don't feel the conflict of that at all. I feel like it just all enriches. You know, my life has been enriched by the things you're talking about. And Suzuki Roshi's life was enriched by his family and his love of partying. Although he didn't drink because he had an illness. But whenever there was a party that I was aware of, that I was told, Suzuki Roshi would say, he'd say, no, I don't want anything to drink, but please give my wife something because she really likes to drink. So she'd drink sake and she'd dance and she'd sing and stuff.

[31:20]

So, you know, there's the feeling of not judging the behavior of others and also of, I like this precept about not intoxicating mind or body of self or others. Intoxicate, toxins are poison. So if you're poisoning yourself, and you can poison yourself with all kinds of things, right? with music and with sex and with drugs and with, you know, too much green tea. There's all kinds of ways you can intoxicate yourself. So you have to practice the middle way and find out what's too much. What's too much of that? Are you addicted? Are you attached? Are you holding it? Or are you enjoying it and then letting it go? Yes. Can you move on? So, you know, again, No one else is inside of you to tell you what of those things is going on. But, you know, it's our job to help find the balance in our lives between asceticism and indulgence.

[32:25]

The first thing the Buddha said in his first sermon, avoid the two extremes, asceticism and indulgence and luxury. So, and who's to say? You know, only you can tell how far you've gone. And I think what's interesting of what you mentioned is how practice, in terms of practice periods, right, where I wonder how, because I know from what I've been reading that Quezon was really helpful in expanding beyond the monastery, right, with the services and really bringing even... if I believe, I think he started Jukai, right, giving lay precepts and that sort of tradition. So I find it really interesting to think, especially as a lay practitioner of these periods of practice, where I think it is important to sit without all of that, right, in a way, or to, as we say, to clarify the mind ground, because it's almost as though...

[33:33]

we recognize more and more that it doesn't go anywhere. It's there, right? That awareness, it's the delusion that makes us feel as though there isn't, and not as if there is a there there, but the words, it's hard to speak of, right? But I think fewer words are best. So thank you. Well, you know, that's why sashines are helpful for lay people, or one-day sittings or half-day sittings, because it gives you a chance to, you know, take off the headphones and be away from the busyness and the kind of activities that you enjoy doing. And it gives you a chance just to be with your mind and body in a quiet space. That's extremely helpful. One period of zazen will do that for you, you know. So just as you said, just to reassure yourself that your Buddha mind isn't gone anywhere. How could it have?

[34:36]

But I'll believe it. And especially with, I think what Dean was saying is very interesting, where I've also have never shared a discouragement for, or been discouraged with the practice itself. It really is with this skin bag, is how I always feel, right? And I think that's what it's so, I'm so grateful for the chants and the rituals that we do because they're constantly reminding us beginningless greed, hate, and delusion. We're not separate from it. We're not doing away with it. And it's not to judge others where we find it. It's right here. It's all together. The separation is what we imagine and create. That's right. You imagine that sentient beings, skin bags, and Buddhas are one. couldn't live without each other, you know? It can be hard to believe from time to time. Now sometimes I recognize more and more where, where faith is necessary from, from time to time, but, but it's all in, it's all in the practice.

[35:45]

So I think that's, that's, that's wonderful. So thank you so much. And I'll keep, keep practicing. Good. What does that mean? That's what we're trying to figure out. Okay. Hi, Lisa. Soren. Fusan and Sangha. Thank you. So this is coming back to a bit of what you were saying when you were talking with Dean. The idea of practicing with something. I mean, in this case it was discouragement. But to practice with pain, practice with boredom, even to practice with positive feeling states, it seems like it's very easy for separation to creep in there.

[36:57]

If you're practicing with something, you're observing it. At least that's my sense, and please, any commentary would help. You're observing it. You're observing what does boredom feel like in my back, in my gut, in my antsiness. But that's almost making a separation between the observer and the phenomenon. How are you doing that? It seems as though when observing, it's easy to assign the role of observer. And as soon as you do that, there's the hair's breadth of difference. But how are you doing that?

[37:59]

What's the mechanism for separating? When you said my back and my, you said you were studying what, boredom? What was it? Yeah, any, you know, sort of any negative. What did you say? I'm sorry? What did you say? I probably said boredom. Boredom. And then you said my back, my this, my that. So if you take away my, you take away language about. you know, location, and you just start to be aware of sensation. I mean, you're talking about the problem of the relative truth. It is. Which is all language. It's all about language. And you can go to a doctor and tell them about your back and your ear and your this and your that. And that's how we work. That's how we roll. We roll with these relative terms. And so the people that we talk to. I mean, we know how to do that. But if you're going to look at vast emptiness, if you're going to look at the context for your boredom, start really looking at it, looking at, well, what is boredom, and opening up those apertures of interest in the sensations, in the ideas, in the quality of the space that you're in.

[39:21]

You know, that's meditation. Okay, that's opening the... You're right. It's the question, what is boredom? What is pain? What is it that thus comes? And not assigning my feeling to it. Or mine. Take the my out of it. Or mine, yeah. Okay. There is feeling. There is fear. There is, you know, again, your naming. I call it fear. We'll go deeper. Right. it's seeing the process it's a very is it the yogachara that that really has the very rapid set of steps yes universal factors yes right and you you you know there's sensation but all of us you know there's foot which is form and then all of a sudden you you've decided you're happy about it you decided it's

[40:21]

a tingle in your toes. You've decided. And that's so fast. That's right. And you've shrunk everything down to your notions. And so now you're dealing with notions. You don't even need a body anymore. You just talk about your symptoms. You can write a note to your doctor with all your symptoms. We have abstracted the actual experience. Yeah. So is the practice then to catch it? And to watch that spiral? Yeah, watch everything that's happening. Okay. You know, with inhalations and exhalations, with interest, curiosity. What is it that thus comes? Boy, it's so fast to put a word on it, though. Well, that's our gift, and it's our curse. Yeah. Yeah, the language habit. You read Sapiens, I think, didn't you?

[41:22]

Yes. Yeah, I mean, he just like nailed it. We only invented language, what, 70,000 years ago? It's just a tiny little time frame that we've come up with this, you know, the OED. We're just adding words all the time. You know, now we got AI to even help us make even more words. And, you know, we're just off the charts in terms of our ability to just do simple, stupid things like get a glass of water, drink it. Take a walk. Smile. Thank you. Continue to feel better. Thank you. Thank you. I think it's going the right way now. Echo. I think maybe Paul and Kate. Paul and Kate, were you up there? Maybe you were up there first. Echo, excuse me. Let me ask. You're near neighbors on the screen.

[42:25]

Neighbors on the screen. I just wanted to share an experience that's related to some of the conversation earlier than in this session about early years of practicing at Green Goats, where Kate and I were going every year to the January intensive, three-week intensive for a while. And... Every year, there's a group of people who would come back again that we knew from previous years. And I remember most of the time is silent, but in the evening at dinner, we're sitting around chatting. And the subject that would frequently come up in the beginning was, what are we doing here? This is really painful. We're getting up. 420 in the morning, and then we're sitting with great pain all day on these cushions doing nothing, and we're paying for it. And this is the conversation at the table. And nobody, of course, had any answers.

[43:27]

It was just kind of asking that question. But what surprised me, this is the piece that I wanted to add, was after this went on year... You know, one year and the next, the same question would arise the next year. But after a few years of the same people, nobody asked that question anymore. We were just doing this practice. There was no, why are we doing it or, you know, complaining about it. It just went away. Sort of surprising result of continuing without abandoning for reasons that we could make up. That's really good, Paul. I mean, have you noticed that too when you said, Sashin, that why am I going back in there? Why? I mean, I couldn't wait to get out of there. And now I am going back in there. You know, it's like day after day. And it was sort of like, and like you said, at some point, you just stop asking the question. Because the pain is the question.

[44:28]

Stop asking the question and go back in the Zendo. And then this whole thing, this... kind of miraculous appearance of God knows what, you know, day after day. It's an amazing thing. We just don't know. But we're compelled somehow. You were compelled. I was compelled. I think all these folks have been compelled to keep coming back. And it seemed like there was something shifting in doing that, but we couldn't put it in words. That was the conclusion is that we come back because something's happening, but we don't know what's going on. Yeah, and we'll never know. That was my greatest visitation of my practice, was being told, and I think I mentioned you all at the Navajo land, and I'm laying there under the stars asking for the answer. Finally, I'm going to get the answer. Here I am in Canyon de Chez. Please tell me. Tell me the answer. And this deep male voice says, you will never know.

[45:31]

And I was just like, knew that somehow but now i really know it we will never know and it's such a relief but we will go back to the zendo or we'll go back somewhere but we'll go home or we'll have lunch you know we will find ourselves doing things somehow and we don't know why but we don't need to you know the magic is just showing up it's it's amazing And I think that's the lesson for me. I just kept going. I just kept showing up, and that was my life. And now it's my life here. As soon as I can get out of quarantine. It is a difference, but you're not allowed to kind of walk the halls at all. You feel like you need to be isolated in the apartment. I did it first, but I think I did go out in the hall. With my mask on, yeah.

[46:33]

Or outside with your mask. Get out of the building and walk a little bit outside with the mask on. I mostly didn't feel like getting out of bed. Oh, that's true. Please don't make me walk. No, yes. When you're not feeling well, getting out isn't the point. No, besides it's 94 degrees out there right now. Yes. We're seeing that, too. There's a little bit of a heat wave coming. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Thank you, Paul. Thank you. Echo. It's nice to see the snow when it's so hot up here. Very comforting. Thank you. Thank you. This is my lifeline. This is a good one. I'm at Louisiana is hot. I think we're dealing with somewhere between 85 and 100 every day with 40% of humidity.

[47:38]

Oh, my gosh. But, you know, we stay indoor. Yeah, yeah. Turn on the AC. Yeah, we do, too. Yeah, we do. Earlier, we talked about, well, like having some idea and then we will want more idea. I mean, we will make new ideas and we keep on chasing our new ideas. So it's quite pointless. The practice is hopefully we don't do that. What about curiosity? I used to know so little. and I was curious about something, so I looked into it, and I wanted to know more about it, so I looked into it a little bit more, and I learned about it a little bit more.

[48:45]

Well, so, you know, I kind of noticed there's this similarity. But somehow, I think the feeling is that the attempt to try to learn more, to satisfy my curiosity and try to learn some more to satisfy my growing curiosity. Somehow this learning process, gradual learning process, feels like Zen practice. I think so. It's not supposed to be a warning sign. Can you say something about that?

[49:50]

Well, a couple of things come to mind. One, it sounds very wholesome. Curiosity. I mean, look at my stack over here. Very curious. Very curious person. I want to know more, and then I buy another book, and then I want to know more, and I buy another book. So, you know, it kind of, unfortunately, it goes a little bit along with acquisitiveness. So you have to kind of figure out where the unwholesome part might be. But I think it's wholesome. Learning is, you know, we are learning. We're learners. That should be our thing in life is to learn as much as we can and to enjoy the learning. I think that's what moves us forward. I really enjoy learning. It's like nourishment to me. And for Buddhism, you know, they talk about the Bodhisattva way is a 10,000-mile-long iron road. There's no end to it. You know, we're not getting anywhere. We're not, there's no, you know, there's no arrival. There's no, you know, just today. Something today interests me, and I ate my lunch, and I read a book, and now it's the day's over, and so on.

[50:52]

There's nothing left of it, you know. And recognizing the transiency, recognizing the futility of acquiring anything that you can keep is Dharma study. So, you know, Dharma study is very wholesome. But also being able to put down the study for a while, to just sit quietly on a snowbank like you're doing now, is a really, really healing and healthy thing for us to do. You know, to give ourselves those times of just rest, to let the mind rest. And then Then we feel refreshed and we go back into our curiosity again. So I don't hear anything but wholesomeness in what you're asking about. Somewhere, well, I can't think of a good illustration, but somewhere, maybe, there's a risk.

[51:54]

of stepping into unwholesomeness you mentioned? Always. Always. Always. So we watch our mind. Someone asked this woman who was ordaining in the Tehran tradition, taking the 311 precepts or something. Somebody asked her, well, how do you maintain 311 precepts? And she said, I don't. I only maintain one. I watch my mind. So if we have fairly good and honest practice of watching ourselves and not fooling ourselves, oh, it's okay. Like the boy, I can take the money, no one will see me. Of course, you see yourself. And so you're the one who can say, that's too much. Like I was saying to Kakuan, that's too much.

[52:55]

Now you're indulging. And the way you know it's too much is because you indulge. And then that helps you. That's a sign. Like Suzuki Rishi is saying in this talk, that's a signal. Oh, that's too much. So that calls you back toward the middle. And that's not enough. And that calls you back toward the middle, the middle way. Between too much and not enough. And it's alive. It's not a set point. You can't. I usually use the image of a sailing on a little boat. You can't sail that way. You sail this way. And then as the wind changes, you need to adapt. So doing practice, practicing precepts or anything else, is about writing your view, writing your intention, writing your speech. Not right speech, right intention. We're alive. We don't live like that. We live like this. No risk-free living.

[54:03]

Wouldn't be quite boring if it's risk-free. Boring, very boring. Living in a prison is quite risk-free. Yeah, I don't know. Solitary confinement. Something just came up. Yes. So what came to my mind is like, so I'm being led. into the room or I'm being misled or I'm being pulled. There's this suggestion, like this is involuntary. Like something, the universe is trying to get me somewhere that I shouldn't be. But the truth is, you know, I misled myself. That's the hard one. They call it truth. It's really hard.

[55:06]

And it's embarrassing. But it's also really wholesome. Back to wholesome again. Confession and repentance is a big part of Buddhist practice with precepts. That you're willing to say, we're the tradition of the guilty ones. Yeah. We've made mistakes, and we do things that are wrong, and so we admit that, and then we move forward. So we align ourselves with what we know to be right, and then we move forward, and then, whoops, and then, whoops. It's like ice skating, you know? Just one side, and then the other, and then... But it's... There's not another way. It's alive. You know, we're alive. Yeah, it is a... It's a fluid, not a solid. Exactly. The state. The state is fluid, not liquid. Yeah, we're not nouns, we're verbs.

[56:09]

Yes. Same way of saying it. Thank you. You're welcome. Good to see you. Stay cool. Okay. Lovely to be with you all, as always. Hi, Phu. Millicent. Hi, Millicent. Hi, Senko. I will be with you in just a sec. Can you stay? Okay, good. Hi, Millicent. Yes, I'll only be a second with you. This is a Kaizen question, Phu. I would love to see that artwork behind you and hear you talk about it. Which one? That one? Yeah. We only see bits of it around the edge of your head. It is. It's a marvel, just like your weaving is. I'm going to share your weaving tomorrow night with the class because I think it's a wonderful example of the song of the Jilmer Samadhi.

[57:16]

I hope you don't mind. Not at all. In fact, of course, I'm coming to your classes. Oh, great. Oh, great. Okay. Well, good. Fan of Dongshan food. But no, give us a better look, Fu. Yeah, okay. Karina, would you tell me the story of the weaver? The person who wove that. Is that a weaving? It's a weaving. It's a tapestry. Yeah, I knew you'd like that. You know, Millicent is a weaver. She wove. I'm going to pull it up on the screen. I've got it here on my desktop because... I'm gonna use it tomorrow. Okay, screen share. Let's see if I can get that. Why isn't that happening? Well, well, well, well. Okay, un momento. I do know how to do this.

[58:18]

There it is. There it is. Okay. Can you see this? Yeah. Can you see the whole thing? Yeah. Millicent made that. The colors are a bit washed out. Well, it doesn't look like that. It was my camera work. My iPhone. But it's a beautiful piece. It's in the hallway here at Enso Village. I want a lot of people to be able to see it. And the characters here are you are not it. In truth, it is you, the Chinese characters. So, Millicent, do you want to say something about this? Well, it was inspired by your talks about the dual mirror verse for you and Dongshan.

[59:19]

which I suppose that verse has become absolutely central to my being, and what's depicted there is what's the nebula food? Tarantula nebula. Scorpion. I know it's one of those scary creatures. Tarantula. Tarantula nebula. But every single one of those those little dots, is another solar system, isn't it? It just blows my mind. So you were, and to think that the whole universe, we are the whole universe. Yes. It's stunning. And the image you took, I found online, too, is of the tarantula nebula as seen by the Hubble telescope.

[60:26]

Yeah. So she wove that. And it looks very much like the image, you know, and more beautiful, actually. Anyway, so, yes, that inspiration. I mean, that's what you're talking about art. That's not art. That's like magic. You know, it's just pure magic. So the one behind me was woven by a Brazilian woman artist. What is her name? Concesa Colasso. Concesa Colasso. Who is rather well known. I think she's still alive. Not sure. But she did a lot of similar pieces. I'll take a picture of it so you can see it up closer. Yes. I'm aware I'm wasting people's time, but it's just exquisite. And as we've been meeting since you've moved, we see little bits of it around the edge while you're talking to us. And so it's part of who you are now for me.

[61:29]

Yeah. Well, I love it. We designed our entire living space around that piece. I love that piece as much. Karina's father was a rug merchant in London, and he had a gallery. where he sold Persian carpets. And she came in one day and said, I would like to have you look at my work. And he said, well, I don't usually do contemporary stuff, but in your case, I'll let you have a show. So she had a show at his London gallery. And as a thank you, she gave him this piece, which then Karina inherited from her dad when he passed. So it has very special meaning to the family. And also it's a beautiful piece. It's just stunning. Just stunning. So this wonderful conversation, sorry, everyone else, this wonderful conversation, how do we sit that into our practice? Because it looks as though we've simply been talking together about an art form and an artwork.

[62:30]

I love those kinds of conversations, but... Do we just accept the pleasure of that conversation and say, yes, that's life-giving and enjoyable and then let it go? Or do we look for, you know, sort of deeper stuff? Well, I vote for looking for deeper stuff and letting that go. Ah, yes. So whatever it is, we don't have to let it go. It just goes. It just goes. It goes. It comes and it goes. Yes. Same with the Dongshan tapestry, which took me about 10 or 11 months to do. And then the minute it's cut off, which is always with the ceremony, preferably with champagne, then it's finished. And it's a thrill that you enjoy it and that you've hung it so other people can see.

[63:40]

But as far as I'm concerned, It's finished. It's like having a baby. I mean, there's nothing in life, nothing in our experience of life that isn't finished. Or new. Finished and new. Arising and passing away. And that's the beauty and also the tragedy of what it is to be alive. Oh, no, I don't want to go. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The more we allow... what's happening, and we don't have to do anything. We just have to be aware, and that helps others too. We're not like, oh, no, no, no. It's helpful to just let things go. Thank you. My apologies, everyone. Oh, no, please. I'm glad you asked. I will show it.

[64:40]

I'll take a picture of it and show it. I'll be a little closer. It's a beautiful piece. It's all birds on a branch in the Amazon. And, okay, let's see. It was Ying. Where is she? Senko. Hi, Fu. Hi, everyone. Yeah, I have a couple of questions. The first one is about... Suzuki Roche's comment of not holding a goal and so I'm trying to think about this because I like to set goals for myself so I guess I'm trying to understand maybe it's to understand as not to take the goal too seriously like it's kind of unavoidable we're going to have a goal somehow in life it's like a tool right like a map but then map is not reality in some way trying to work with it watch out for that Yeah. And then the disappointment when that doesn't happen.

[65:43]

And then, you know, how angry we get and how disappointed it's like, well, that didn't happen. Now, what did happen? Yeah, it's very easy for me to say now, like, not taking it seriously. But when this habit energy comes, I'm taking it so seriously. And yesterday, I was experiencing this kind of, like, emotional issue with, like, my daughter, she was very stressed out. It's her summer, like, you know, like there's not much deadlines. So she's like, oh, I set a goal to do this much math, this much history, this much, like every day. But today I didn't do that. I said, can't you just go to sleep and do it tomorrow? But she said, it's today because I set a goal. So you can see that for children. That's that. Yeah. I don't know how to help her. She probably learned it from her mommy. She inherited it from me, but I'm trying to like fight against that now. I'm just like, Don't, I said, that's a delusion. Well, you know, it's sort of like whoever put, you know, the thorn is used to take out a thorn.

[66:47]

So you're the best person for her to have for mommy now because you know it well. You know what happens when you do that kind of goal setting like that instead of like that or like that. So, you know, you'll be the perfect resource for her. Yeah, but it's really hard for me, right? It's like I struggle because on one hand, I feel like it's from me. And I see myself. And I tell her I made those mistakes. And I said, I made all those mistakes. And it's not very benefiting. So we talked about it. And then I kind of forced her to go to sleep. I said, why don't I set your alarm clock 20 minutes earlier tomorrow? You get up earlier. And we kind of settled on that. And she got up early today. So it's like very hard to do in life. I think now I really understand why Zen teachers always say, just try to experience in your life. Don't just like You read the book, right? But you have to read because if I don't read, I don't even have that map. I need a map. I like really experiencing that in life. It's just such a learning. I'm just amazed by there is Zen.

[67:49]

Like Buddhism is just like, wow. Wow is right. It really saves our lives. Totally. It's true. It's absolutely true. Yeah. That's absolutely true. And maybe at some point your daughter will begin to see that too. She was telling me something where I feel so encouraged. She said, mom, when I was like sixth grade, I wasn't so good in reading comprehension. But you know, I'm really good now. It's because of Zen. So I asked her, why are you so good now? She said, you know, I am like doing, like acing my reading comprehension now because I see like human's delusion, how people are struggling in the truth. Because I talked about that a lot and she used that in her reading assignment. Wow. Wonderful. Wonderful. It is amazing. I was like, wow, that's very encouraging. It is. It is. Yeah. So another question I have, I really want to thank you for sending me the six remembrance in an email.

[68:50]

And I think the first five makes sense to me. The last one is about remembrance of deities. which I don't think Zen Buddhism has stressed a lot, at least from my learning and the books. I don't think anyone stressed about remembrance of deities. So I'm trying to think about, is that trying to remember the personification of Avalokiteshvara or Manjusri because they stand for certain qualities? Because I grew up in China. Buddhism was practiced. It was really about deities. We go to temple, it's the birthday of Avalakiteshvara, right? So you kind of do all those things. That's very like different from what I was learning now. So I guess I want to get your thinking on that, that remembrance. Yeah, that's a tricky one. That's just deities instead of deity. I mean, I'm glad you have like a whole pantheon to choose from. And we do of the bodhisattvas.

[69:53]

And also when you read the sutras, there's a lot of the gods are speaking and they... Oh, right. who told the buddha to get up and go teach and you know indra spoke to him and so there's a lot of what you know for us in our modern thinking is really mythic or legendary and i have no problem with legends i like legends lord of the rings and all that so i think it's fine for us to see it as legendary and see them as beneficial like avalakitashvara is a quality it's not a person Buddha is not a person. It's a quality. It's a wake. Buddha is a wake. So just remembering that what we're honoring are these qualities that we do honor and that are very much projections of human qualities. We project compassion onto this amazing figure, right? But it's our projection of compassion. It's coming from us. Yeah. It's almost like upaya. It's like a skill for me of teaching, right?

[70:55]

For most people, even in China, I think it's a good way for people to learn. And some people, it's just more helpful to have these deities. They're very concrete. Yeah. I was taught that as a child. I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible. And many of you may have learned that. And I was taught to believe that. And it's sort of like in my head... But I don't know what it means to believe something. I just know I have that in my head. And I have a lot of questions. Like someone was saying, this wonderful guy here is a physicist or a chemist. He said, you know, when I was a boy, I'd ask the person in church, well, does God have legs? You know, stuff like that. I don't blame him. I have the same problem. Does he have hands? Does he have any use for any of those things? So anyway, I think it's really... us each to question and decide what do we mean by deity? What do you mean by deities? If you haven't seen it already, you might check on YouTube.

[71:57]

There's Mr. Deity, which is very funny. It's very funny. Anyway, check it out. Mr. Deity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so good. That's so good. What I feel about deities, you know, I kind of struggle with that. You know, when I first came to the U.S., I think about this male kind of everyone thinking about this male kind of God image. I try to project as a woman because I really struggled with it for a while. I was like, I don't like that image in my head. So I'm trying to like, how about African woman? I'm trying to like switch the images. But now I think I am more settled. I don't have to switch the image. I just, no, I don't have to. Now she can be a Singaporean. Yeah, exactly. Singaporean teenager. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Ying. Thanks, Fu. Thanks, everyone. Thank you, everybody. See you soon. I'll take care. Be well. Hope you all stay free of this little bug and the bad weather. And we'll see you again, hopefully, next week.

[72:58]

So welcome to unmute and say goodbye as you wish. Thank you. Be well. Feel better, Fu. Feel better, Fu. Feel better. Thank you, Fargo. Bye. Bye. Thanks, everybody. Bye. Bye, everyone. Feel better, Fu. Feel better.

[73:20]

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