This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning. Well, to begin with, I want to just say something about how we do prostrations when we do a prostration and we bow down and then we put our elbows and the back of our hands flat excuse me flat on the mat or on the tatami or wherever you're bowing so Elbows, it's called five points.

[01:02]

Elbows, back of the hands, and forehead. And when you touch your forehead, you lift the palms. You don't go like that. You don't go like that. You don't go wiggle. There's a way of doing it. You lift your palms and you keep your fingers and thumbs together. It's not like this. That's a sieve. Everything falls through. You want to keep the energy. Not only that, you want to lift the Buddha's feet. That's what this means. This means I'm lifting the Buddha's feet above the ground. I'm paying respect to the Buddha. It can also mean just an offering. This is like An offering. I like to think of it as just an offering. It actually means lifting the Buddha's feet.

[02:05]

But if you don't like the idea of lifting the Buddha's feet, you can say, this is just an offering to the universe or to whoever's in front of me. It's good to say, I'm opening myself to our conversation. That's pretty good. I'm not holding anything back. I'm not preserving anything for myself. I'm just totally giving. That's good. So it's important to keep the fingers and thumbs together. Because then everything's together. It's all one piece. And putting the elbows and back of the hands on the... You're just kind of resting. And then you touch your head to the mat. So today I'm going to tell a little story. This story, there was one in China in the 9th century, around the 9th century, was a young boy whose later his Dharma name became Lung Tan.

[03:20]

Lung Tan means something like dragon pond, deep pond. dragons love the water. There's a little saying, dragons love the water, tigers love the mountains. So dragons are usually associated with water, even though they snort fire. But fire is part of water. But as a little boy, he probably wasn't named Longtan, he was probably named Little Rabbit or nickname or something. But we'll call him Lungtan to identify him. So Lungtan lived with his family. And his family supported themselves by making little bakery products. Little cookies, not cookies, maybe cookies, but little buns called mind refreshers.

[04:24]

There's a name for that, but I can't remember what it is. Dim sum. Dim sum. Dim sum. Yeah, I know dim sum very well. Yeah, maybe dim sum. And they lived next to the temple of a priest named Dao Wu. Dao Wu was actually a very famous Zen master. And Dao Wu saw something special in the boy, and he invited him to come anytime and have a conversation, you know, or associate with each other. So periodically the boy would come, and he and Dao Wu would have Doka-san or something, I don't know. And when he would come,

[05:31]

his mother would give him some dim sum. Maybe eight little cookies, little dim sum pieces to take to Da Wu. And when Da Wu would thank him and receive the dim sum, and then he would take one and give it back. And after a while, Lung Tan thought about this, he said, You know, every time I come, I give you these dim sum, and you always give me one back. Why do you give that back to me? He said, because I'm just giving you what is already yours. Lesson number one. So, later on, part two of the story, there was a... And much later on, maybe 20 years later on, or 30 years later on, there was a monk, a Buddhist monk named Dashaan.

[06:46]

We didn't know him as Tokusan in Japanese. And he was a scholar of the Daimon Sutra. And he was traveling around. He seemed to be stuck in the literary world, in the scholarly world. And he'd heard about these Zen people. And he had studied the diamonds back and forth. He read it 300 times. And he spouted, you know, the Diamond Sutra philosophy. And he was looking for one of these Zen masters to put him in his place. Because the Zen masters were talking about this transmission that goes beyond learning.

[07:51]

So, Lung Tan put these... you know, they used to carry this stuff on their backs in a pack. And so he was wandering around and he came to this place where there was a dim sum booth. And there was an old lady selling dim sum. And he said, boy, I'd sure like to have some of that. So he said to her, how much are your dim sum? And she said, well, wait a minute. What is that you're carrying on your back? And he said, oh, that's all my collections of commentaries and versions of the Diamond Sutra. She said, oh, the Diamond Sutra. She said, I'll tell you what. I'm going to ask you a question. If you can answer my question, I'll give you one or two of my dim sum.

[08:58]

If you can't answer it, I won't give you any. That's one version. And she said, okay. Shoot. Ask me. She says, you know, it's said in the Diamond Sutra. She said, oh, what? What does she know about the Diamond Sutra? It says in the Diamond Sutra, past mind, future mind, and present mind cannot be grasped. None of these three can be grasped. And she says, with what mind will you eat my dim sum? And he was totally nonplussed. I mean, he just could not, for one thing, he was startled at the question, and for another, he didn't know how to answer it. So this is one of those women that should be in the lineage. But nobody can quite figure her out. She's always been kind of, who is this lady?

[10:00]

But I can tell you, I figured out who she is. So he said, you know, I'm looking for some Zen master to have a conversation with. And she says, well, up on the top of the mountain over there, there's a monk named Lung Tan. And you should go and visit with him. He's very good. So he said, okay. So Dashan went up the mountain and came upon Lungtan. And Lungtan just was like an ordinary guy, you know, nothing special. And Dashan said, are you Lungtan? He said, I don't see anything. I don't see any dragon or pawn, dragon pawns around here. And Lungtan said, what you see is what you get. something like that. So they started talking and pretty soon Dashan started to understand Lungtan and Lungtan was just telling him the Dharma.

[11:10]

So they spoke all day, all night and by the time they were finished they were really on the same page. And so it was Lungkan said, well, you can stay, there's a hut outside you can stay in for the night. And so it was very dark out. They opened the door and it was just pitch black. And so Lungkan lit a paper lantern. I don't know what that means exactly, but a piece of paper with oil on it maybe. just as he was handing it to Darshan, Darshan reached out for it, Longtan pushed it forward, and then he went, and everything was pitch black, totally.

[12:11]

There was nothing but total darkness. And Darshan had a great experience. We call it sometimes an enlightenment experience. Everything just went dark. He was fully enveloped in utter darkness. Everything fell away. Nothing remained. It's a great, wonderful, famous story of an enlightenment experience. So, Dushan, of course, the next day went out and burned all his citrus, all his commentaries. which was not a good idea. But anyway, you know. But it's said that although he had this great enlightenment experience, he came back and stayed with Lung Tan for 30 more years.

[13:12]

I don't think it was 30 years because they wouldn't allow time for anything else to have happened. But the point is that even though he had an enlightenment this big, enlightenment experience, he still had to study practice for another thirty years to mature. So to have an enlightenment experience like that is very dramatic. And when you read a book, the books always point out the dramatic enlightenment experiences. And so we all think that we need to have an dramatic enlightenment experience, like it says in the book. It's great if we do, but enlightenment experiences are not always that dramatic. You may have an enlightenment experience and not even know it, which happens all the time, actually.

[14:17]

You're having enlightenment experiences all the time, but you don't even know it. They're not so dramatic, but they have an effect on you. Suzuki Roshi used to say, well, you should have an enlightenment experience moment after moment. If you have an enlightenment experience moment after moment, your life will not necessarily be dramatic moment by moment, but you'll be... have some confidence in your practice. So I want to present a little of Suzuki Roshi's understanding about enlightenment.

[15:19]

You know, people used to say about Suzuki Roshi, he never talks about enlightenment. He never talks about enlightenment. And so they doubted his understanding. But actually, he talked about enlightenment all the time. He would talk about it If you go through his talks, you'll see that he uses the word enlightenment, but he didn't always talk about enlightenment. His talk was enlightened talk. He didn't have to talk about enlightenment. People who talk about enlightenment don't necessarily have enlightened talk. Suzuki Roshi was very plain.

[16:30]

And when we think about enlightenment and great experiences, we want the movie to be interesting. But Suzuki Roshi's movie wasn't interesting, but it was very plain and very right on the mark. Dogen, of course, was a dramatist. And he went through all these koans, and he brought all the koans together, the meaning of the koan together, into one bundle. and called it Genjo Koan.

[17:33]

The Koan of daily life, as it is called. The Koan that appears in your life moment by moment, whether you recognize it or not. The Koan of our daily life. Suzuki Roshi kind of said something like, your life as it proceeds from Zazen into your daily activity. That's genjo koan. We practice in genjo koan all the time. That's what our practice is, actually. It's not that there's no koan study in Soto Zen. Although the old teachers always used the stereotype koans to illustrate the koans of your daily life. When you study the koans, they're all about two guys meeting and talking about their daily life in the most plain and simple way.

[18:40]

But they see what's brought out is the non-duality that actually exists in our daily life. So what makes koans so difficult when you read them is because they're about non-duality. They come from the point of view of non-duality, and that always buckles our mind because it doesn't follow a dualistic logic which is embedded in us. That's fine. So Suzuki Roshi emphasized practice rather than enlightenment, which is Dogen's way to emphasize practice So you don't talk a lot about enlightenment. You just talk about practice. Practice is the emphasis. Because in Dogen's way, practice and enlightenment are not two. One moment of practice is one moment of enlightenment.

[19:44]

Two moments of practice is two moments of enlightenment. Where's the enlightenment? This is just like ordinary activity. Yes. Enlightenment is ordinary activity to see the ordinary activity to be enlightened within ordinary activity if you can't see that then you can't see it at all and you're waiting for the big lightning bolt and then you look around for other teachers Shaktipad. It's the ostrich feather. So, it's okay to have those kinds of experiences, but the good question is, then what?

[20:49]

Then what? Now what? Suzuki Roji says, In our practice, the most important thing is to realize that we have Buddha nature. Intellectually, we may know this, but it may be difficult to accept. Our everyday life is in the realm of good and bad, the realm of duality, while Buddha nature...

[21:54]

is found in the realm of the absolute, where there is no good and no bad. So there is a two-fold reality. Two-fold reality is the realm of absolute and the realm of relativity. So our relative life, our life of comparative values and discrimination is one true life, even though we say it's the life of delusion. It's delusionary because we don't understand it. And then there's the realm of utter darkness. Doshan experienced the realm of utter darkness. the realm of the absolute.

[22:57]

So the light side is the realm of differentiation. The dark side is the realm of the absolute. We don't have to be hit in the head or have the limp blown out to experience the realm of duality because that's where we have our life. Our life exists in the realm of duality. But we don't necessarily understand the oneness of that duality. So that's why we practice. Enlightenment is to realize the oneness of that duality so that the two are not one. One is that it's not two and it's not one. So this is the two levels of reality, the relative level and the absolute level. And the third level is the oneness of the two.

[23:59]

So he's talking, he says Harada Roshi. Harada Roshi actually was one of the, a famous Zen master who passed away in 1964. That's the year I came to practice. I wonder if this works like this. Oh, good. Hashimoto, a famous Zen master who passed away in 1965, said that the way we Japanese cook is to prepare each ingredient separately. When you go to have a Japanese meal, there's a little pickle here, and the fish is there, and then there's some... vegetable here we tend to put all our food together and make a stew but their way of cooking is always separate things separate little things so rice is here and the pickles are there but when you put them in your tummy you don't know which is which so when it goes down it all dissolves and starts mixing up

[25:23]

And you can't say, this is pickles, and you can't say what, you know. Rice is here and pickles are over there, but when you put them in your tummy, you don't know which is which. The soup, the rice, the pickles, and everything get all mixed up. This is the world of the absolute, where everything does not have an identity. Everything loses its identity. As long as rice, pickles and soup remain separate, they're not working. You are not being nourished. So that is like your intellectual understanding or book knowledge. It remains separate from your actual life. So you have to put that into action called practice and let go of everything and let it all dissolve and come together as one. There's another... description of that, where he says, when we digest food completely, this is a great talk about brown rice.

[26:40]

He says, how do you like zazen? I think it may be better to ask, how do you like brown rice? He didn't like, you know, they didn't eat brown rice in Japan. But he ate it and it killed him. No. Maybe. It may have. I don't know. But he did try to eat brown rice. How do you like brown rice? I think it's better to ask how do you like zazen? How do you like brown rice? So zazen is a big topic. Zazen is too big a topic to talk about. But brown rice is just right. Actually, there's not much difference between zazen and brown rice. When you eat brown rice, you have to chew it. And unless you chew it, it is difficult to swallow. I have a little bone to pick.

[27:42]

What's the timing of our meals? I think they're a little too fast. But the last couple of days, they've been just about right. But when you... Most people don't chew. They don't. Most people do not chew. They just eat. But I always chew. Got to get this chewed up. One bite, everybody else is going like this, and I'm going... I can't eat, swallow stuff unless I chew it. So we learned that in the macrobiotic age, back in the 60s, when we had macrobiotics here. This was when food was just beginning to be, the change in how we eat was just beginning to form.

[28:48]

And there were the macrobiotics, the mucous-less... diet people, and three or four different kinds of food experiments. And so, you know, the macrobiotics sometimes were making cookies that were made out of whole wheat with no sugar. And they're like little bricks, you know. Anyway, we should have enough time to chew our food. So anyway, when you eat brown rice, you have to chew it. And unless you chew it, it's difficult to swallow. I agree. When you chew it very well, your mouth becomes part of the kitchen. That's a funny statement. It said that a monk's mouth is like a stove.

[29:51]

In other words, everything goes in and it all gets digested. Hopefully. Not just food. It's like whatever goes in. Okay, I'll take it. And it gets digested. So it becomes part of it. And you actually chew it, Bryce. The more you chew it, it becomes more tasty. As you chew it, it releases its taste. That's what we think. When you really chew it well, it releases its taste. When we eat white rice, we don't chew it so much. But that little bit of chewing feels so good that naturally the rice goes down our throats. So when we digest food completely, what will become of it? It will be transformed, changing its chemical nature and will permeate our whole body. That's a nice statement.

[30:51]

For in the process, it dies within our body. Yeah, it dies. It comes apart. So we call it dying, right? But we don't think of it dying. We just think of it changing its chemical nature and turning it into something else and combining with other things. But when we die, we think, oh my God, I'm dying. And we die, and that's it. but we're doing the same thing. In the process, it dies within our body, and to eat and digest food is natural to us, as we are always changing. The organic process is called emptiness. So emptiness, in this case, means change. If there was no change, nothing would happen. The only way anything happens is through change.

[31:53]

The only way life can come up is through dying. So dying produces living and living produces dying. It's a great process. The reason we call it emptiness is that it has no special form. If it had a special form, it can't change. So transformation is the name of the game. This is called the realm of transformation. This is the active principle that makes everything work. It has some form, but that form is not permanent. In other words, all these forms are being produced, but they're only temporary. And as a matter of fact, as they're being produced, they're also being changed. So everything is being changed as it's being produced.

[32:55]

Production and change is the same thing, just two sides of the same thing, of the same coin. Production and change. Production, rising and falling, birth and death, all happening at the same time. While it is changing, it carries on our life energy. So that's what makes it. energy, that's what creates heat. Change creates heat. Rubbing creates heat. So it's the realm of endless transformations. We know that we are empty and we also know the earth is empty. The forms are not permanent. You may wonder, what is this universe? But this universe has no limit. Emptiness is not something you can understand through a space trip. Sometimes, you know, the empty sky at one time was thought of as the unconditioned.

[34:04]

But we know that space is also solid, has substance. Emptiness can be understood when you are perfectly involved in chewing rice. So this is profound enlightenment. When you chew rice you have a great opportunity to experience enlightenment. When you wash the dishes you have a great opportunity to experience enlightenment. When you sweep the ground you have a great opportunity to experience enlightenment. When you sit on the toilet, you have a great opportunity to experience enlightenment. So the most important point is to establish yourself in a true sense without establishing yourself in delusion.

[35:14]

That's so. But even so, we establish our practice in the midst of delusion. We sit zazen in the midst of delusion. We may think, I am sitting zazen in the midst of enlightenment, but actually we're sitting zazen in the midst of delusion, and that's enlightenment. Delusion is necessary, but delusion is not something on which we can establish ourselves. It is like a stepladder. Without it, you can't climb up, but you can't Without it, you can't climb up. In other words, we need delusion. We don't say delusion is wrong or bad. Delusion is just delusion, and it's useful. It's called the activity of our life. We live in this realm of delusion, but it's necessary. We can't live without it.

[36:16]

So, it is like a stepladder. Without it, you cannot climb up. but you don't stay on the stepladder, with this confidence, you can continue to study the way. So that is why I say, don't run away. Stick with me. I don't mean stick to me. I mean stay with yourself, not with delusion. Stick with yourself. That's a kind of funny talk, but don't get caught by delusion, even though we are practicing in the midst of delusion to not get... caught by delusion, not get stuck in delusion. So we practice in the world without being stuck in it, without being caught by anything. So sometimes I may be a delusion. You may overestimate me.

[37:21]

He is a good teacher. That is already a kind of delusion. So this is a good teacher. Teacher says, who says, stay with me because I am enlightened. I would run away as fast as I can because my teacher says, don't stick with me. You may think I'm a delusion. I may be a delusion. You have to know what you're doing. I am your friend. I am just practicing with you as your friend who has many stepladders. We shouldn't be disappointed with a bad teacher or with a bad student. You know, if a bad student and a bad teacher strive for the truth, something real will be established. This is Arzazen.

[38:23]

We must continue to practice that then and continue to chew brown rice. Eventually we will accomplish something. So, a bad student and a bad teacher strive for the truth. You can't beat that. So we should be careful when we choose a teacher. If a teacher wants something from you, you should run away. If you leave a teacher, Jesus should just say goodbye. That's all. And just do what you're doing.

[39:25]

When the teacher comes back, when the student comes back, you just take up where you left off without saying a word. This happens all the time. There's no attachment. There's this wonderful poem, which I have to remember exactly. The blue mountain is the parent of the white cloud. The white cloud is the child of the blue mountain. All day long they depend on each other without being dependent on each other. The blue cloud, the blue mountain is always the blue mountain.

[40:27]

The white cloud is always the white cloud. I'll say that again. The blue mountain is the parent of the white cloud. The white cloud is the child of the blue mountain. All day long they depend on each other without being dependent on each other. That's a good koan of student-teacher relationship. Everybody eats the same brown rice, chews the same brown rice, and works on the same ordinary activity together. So the best way for practice with a teacher is just to be there.

[41:31]

This is also Suzuki Roshi's way. Not so much teaching this and that. He didn't teach this and that. We just practiced together with him. Kind of like an apprenticeship. This is kind of Japanese way also. You learn through just association and observation. Association and observation. So just day after day. There's also a wonderful poem about this monk who lived on Mount Isan, Guishan. And, of course, Guishan was a great Zen master, and he lived on Mount Guishan.

[42:36]

But in Japanese we say Isan. And so this monk said, I lived for 30 years, I lived on Mount Isan, Mount Guishan. I ate Guishan's rice and I shit Guishan's shit. The only thing I did was tend to a water buffalo. Usually they say a cow, but I think a water buffalo probably. Maybe a water buffalo cow. And this water buffalo was a really wild thing. And when he ran into people's gardens, I yanked him back, you know. And when he misbehaved, I gave him the whip. And when somebody would say something kindly to him, he'd follow them all over the place without discrimination.

[43:40]

And I had to yank him back. So I was always dealing with this rough fellow. But after 30 years, he says, now, what an adorable... thing he is. He just stands in front of my face, and even if I try to push him away, he won't go. That's interesting, right? So I wanted to say a little something about the trikaya.

[45:12]

Because this trikaya, you know, we chant this every day, but people ordinarily don't know what that means. And I talked about it during the class. Trikaya is the dharmakaya, sambhogakaya. and nirmanakaya. Dharmakaya is Vairacana Buddha. Sambhogakaya is Lojana Buddha, or Amida. And nirmanakaya is innumerable Shakyamuni Buddhas all over the world. But I thought Shakyamuni was just one person. Shakyamuni is, like each one of us, it kind of represents Shakyamuni Buddha when we practice.

[46:19]

So what that means is the person who practices in the realm of transformations. So... It's called the transformation body. This is the transformation body, the nirmanakaya, the one that walks and talks and makes mistakes and successes. This is nirmanakaya Buddha. You are all nirmanakaya shakimuni Buddhas. That's what that means. So, sambhogakaya is the one. who recognizes the Dharmakaya and the Nirmanakaya. Sambhogakaya is like our wisdom body. Dharmakaya is our essence body, our essential body, Buddha nature.

[47:25]

So Sambhogakaya, our wisdom body, recognizes dharmakaya in sambhogakaya. That's called enlightenment. In other words, you are aware, somehow aware, of the essential body of Buddha in every minute aspect of our life. That's called wisdom. Wisdom recognizes or at least acts as if you recognize the essential and the impermanent. So you treat everything

[48:30]

with great respect. That's our practice. We treat everything with great respect. And when you treat everything with great respect, then everything treats you with great respect. And so you vibrate with the universe. That's sort of Zen practice. Very careful to treat everything with respect. That's why our practice is designed the way it is. We come into the Zen and we bow to everything, right? We bow to the gamasio.

[49:32]

I remember people saying, why do we bow to the gamasio? Why do we have to bow to the gamasio? We just do it. Just do it. When people would ask Suzuki Roshi a question, why do we do this and why do we do that? He'd say, I don't know. Just do it. I don't know. I don't know. Just do it. So, just do it. It's our practice, actually. You don't have to know why. If you just do it, you will understand why. If you try to figure out why, you get lost. But if you just do it, you understand. So, do you have any questions? Maybe. I'll give you a minute. Oh yeah.

[50:38]

Yes. Yes. I taught that last time I was here. Yes. And in that he describes the transmission as a transmission of enlightenment. Mm-hmm. And it uses many images of seeing and hearing. Mm-hmm. I think this was common in the Tang, the Sun dynasties in China, images of seeing, hearing, entering. But not so much. I mean, nowadays, I think people, if they believe in enlightenment at all, it's something subconscious, something that's not really seen or heard or a pass through. It's something more like digestion. That's not the way that our ancestors really talked about or understood it. And that's not how Kiesanth, Jogin, or Gogin conceived of the transmission.

[51:40]

I didn't know that, you know, seeing and hearing. This comes from the Lotus Sutra, you know, and also the Sirangama Sutra. There were In the Surangama Sutra, there were a good number of bodhisattvas who were asked to explain their practice. And one explains it through eating, one explains it through seeing, and others... How did they enter the realm of non-duality? And once I entered the realm of non-duality through sight... Avalokiteshvara is the one who... entered the realm of non-duality through hearing. So he hears the cries of the world. And that's considered the most efficacious way according to the sutra.

[52:44]

So when you read the history, you know, you have to kind of say, okay. but not compare it to other things. When you start comparing, well, he says this, and that one says that. And when the sutras started coming into China from India, people thought, wow, that's a lot of sutras coming from India to China. And you know what? They're all saying something different. And they're all supposed to be the word of the Buddha. So what are we supposed to do? So people began to realize there's this opinion, there's that opinion, there's this way of thinking, there's that way of thinking, and we'll accept them all as sutras, but they're not necessarily the word of Shakyamuni. They're the word of the Sambhogakaya. Their wisdom, the sutras, were written by the Sambhogakaya.

[53:55]

Sambhogakai, but they were written by the wisdom which was handed down from Shakyamuni in 500 years or so. And so there's a lot of people's experience and opinions and so forth. So it's good to read that and get it, but it... To take it all literally can be a mistake. So digest it and see how that, well, how does that really fit with what's, you know, it's not like this person says that and that one person says that and that's different. How do they mean the same thing? How do you bring those two seemingly divergent ways of expression and see, well, how do they actually fit rather than how do they not fit? I don't know what you mean by subconscious enlightenment.

[55:14]

I don't know what you mean by subconscious enlightenment. Well, it seems like there's a lot of metaphors that you just kind of keep going along and eventually you kind of understand some things, but there's nothing really out there. You just kind of catch on after a while. Well, okay, I think I know what you mean. you may not have realization. Enlightenment is our inherent nature. That's all it is, is our inherent nature. There's not anything to get, but we don't realize it. So people mistake enlightenment from realization. Enlightenment is... Enlightenment realization is understanding it. So it's not like people don't have it, they just don't understand it.

[56:18]

They don't realize it. It's not realized. If you don't practice, it's not realized. This is Dogen's. Dogen, Kezon is the fourth ancestor from Dogen, and he's relying on everything Dogen said. So Dogen says... Although it's inherent in our nature, it's not brought forth unless we practice. So practice is the main thing. Practice enlightenment. So you may say, well, I don't get it. Where's the enlightenment? You just haven't realized it. You go along and you go along and you go along. Where is it? So in the past... when you read the lives of the old Chinese ancestors, they all went through that. They all went through this, like, look at Hakuen, for crying out loud.

[57:22]

A lot of them, they're almost dead before they have realization. So, we're not, there's nothing different, really. Oh, I'm not going to reveal that. This is a good question. That's a very good question. I would have said, you got me there, my dear, but I'm still hungry.

[58:28]

Yes. Oh, didn't I say that? Oh, sorry. Thank you. Yeah, that's what I discovered. That she was his mom. Yeah. That was my punchline. Thanks for bringing that up. Yes. Yeah, it's obvious. But nobody else discovered that. I will go down in history as the one that discovered that she was his mom. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click giving.

[59:29]

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