Thank you, Honorable Herbert, for having me sit here. Thank you, Dr. Slita. Out of the wish, To benefit others, I visualize you upon the fresh lotus in my heart. May the melodious sound of your nectar-like speech, O Manjushri, confer splendor upon my mind. These words from Vipan Rinpoche I invoke as I sit down here to have a conversation with you. on this beautiful Sunday morning.

[01:13]

And what else is that to discuss in our life? What's a necessity for us to take refuge, to find a place of refuge, and to be that refuge for others? We can only be a refuge for others if we ourselves know where to take refuge in. And the only refuge that we have is the pure, awakened mind that we are. Prashna Paramita. The perfection of that wisdom that knows, that loves, that is compassionate, skillfulness towards ourselves and others. That's our mind. That's the basis of our mind. That's our Buddha nature. That's our awakened nature that we already are.

[02:17]

So that's good news here in Buddhism, is we don't need to search outside. It's already right here, our awakened nature, our pure, awakened mind. That's love, that's wisdom. It's right here. So... How do we approach this? How are we bringing it into the world? These are these questions that keep coming up. And the founder of this particular practice lineage that we find ourselves in, this temple here, Dogen Senshi, he describes this practice path through the gateway of refuge when he says the buddhas and ancestors authentic transmission to india and china is reverent devotion to buddha dharma and sangha without taking refuge there is no devotion without devotion there is no taking refuge the merit and virtue of taking refuge is realized through

[03:36]

Responsive communion between sentient beings and Buddhas. Devotion and responsive communion between Buddhas and sentient beings. So, of course, you immediately are so trained in wanting to make distinctions. So, where is that Buddha? And where is that sentient being? We have our habits. We have our habits in making that distinction. And at the same time, I do want to invite us today to turn into the skillful means of the Buddhas helping us using that distinction to get out of distinction.

[04:39]

For example, one of the examples of those skillful means is the refuge ceremony. Some of you have gone through the refuge ceremony. And actually... It seems like there is a time before the ceremony, then you go through the ceremony, and there's a time after, and something has changed. And I particularly myself would confess that that refuge ceremony has been a huge change in my life. At the same time, you are able to take refuge right now without having gone through a ceremony. You can take refuge to Buddha. take refuge to Dharma, and take refuge to Sangha at this very moment. And it has an effect. For example, I read this beautiful story of Tanken Harada Roshi, the teacher of both the Abbot and Kokyu-san.

[05:48]

He told the story that they had a dog. I'm not sure you guys saw that dog, Koru. He had a dog in a temple with his most venerable practice. And that dog was sick and some very old. And so one day when Harada, Tanka Narada Roshi went outside the gate, he saw that dog lying in the sun on the gate of the temple and not breathing. So he went to the dog and took the dog in the arm and said, Namu Kiyobutsu. I take refuge in Buddha, I take refuge in Dharma, I take refuge in Sangha. And the moment he said that, the first time the dog, the breathless dog, opened the mouth and howled. And then he repeated, I take refuge in Buddha, I take refuge in Dharma, I take refuge in Sangha.

[06:52]

And this dead, dying dog again howled. And so is the third time. And in a way how Thangana Radha Roshi explains the story is that this dog had made a connection to the Dharma, to the Buddha, through awakening, through eating all these leftover from the monks that collected the alms, from devotees, aided to nurture their practice, and then... whatever was left over was fed to the dog. So the dog made a connection. And hearing these words at the time of his passing had an impact, had an effect. So there's a conditioning and so the exposure to the blessing, to the power of awakening that has an effect no matter how dull we are, how much desperate we are. So there's power there in taking refuge. There's... extreme power. And again, why is there power there?

[07:54]

Because it's not something from outside. It's our own mind that's right here, that's awakening, that's separation. I myself just came from the airplane. I came from Manjurvi Pada, the land that was pounded by Manjushri. Manjushri Pada is another word for Nepal. It's the place where Manjushri has seen, and with his divine eye, a beautiful lotus on the bottom of a lake. And he wanted others to see that lotus too, so he cut into the mountain and drained the lake. exposing Nepal as it is today. Kind of stories like this, stories to bring us wisdom closer.

[09:01]

So who is Manjushri? Manjushri is a bodhisattva, one of very high realized bodhisattvas, so close to awakening that he has a power and a capacity of Buddha and awakening himself. And at the same time, as a 10-stage bodhisattva, it is said that he sees the Dharma realm, the Dharmakaya, in the same way as a newborn child is seeing the sun in the room that it's born. So there are stages of our ability to see this awakening that we are and respecting that. helps us to utilize that power. Only if we find our place right now do we know how to use skillfulness to unpack ourselves into that awakening that we are.

[10:07]

So there is a sense of humility that can come along with respecting power. And once one knows power, one is able to use it. Just like, for example, electricity. If one is blind to the power of electricity, one can easily get killed. One uses it unskillfully, right? But if you know the power of electricity, you know how to be able to use it into lighting a room brightly or dimly, however you want it. That's skillfulness. So again, approaching the power of our mind that is so powerful that it can penetrate through any darkness and any confusion whatsoever. We approach and see beings because we want relationship. It is this communion that Dogen was saying about that helps us use a piece of wood and carve an image out of it that is trying to guide us towards that understanding.

[11:13]

In the beginning, when I went to any religious place, I was pretty small. Just being in church in my local town, I was always like, so why was I talking about, you know, this being that's supposed to be better than me? And it was bothering me, actually, to have constantly and kind of religious figure in front of me that's supposed to be better. So when we're talking about stages and differentiations in awakening, again, we're not talking about a better. There's no better. It's the difference between the sky being full of clouds or free of clouds. Is the sky anywhere better with or without clouds? I think that's a distinction that's utterly useless. And yet it has so much power, such a tiny distinction, so much power.

[12:20]

If anything that generates suffering in this world, it really are afflictive emotions, like the emotions to say, I hate rain and I want sun. How miserable one can get just like adhering to that kind of distinction all day. So afflictive emotions... There are multiple, endless afflictive emotions, and we can see them in the news, laid out, like really detailed. In Buddhism, they are boiled down to five. That's greed, hate, and delusion, the main ones that get us into trouble. But then also jealousy and pride, which are very subtle and that can sneak up on us exactly by making the distinction of like... Why is somebody better than me? Or why am I, you know, nobody seeing how good I am and they're just really stupid? So this kind of distinction of kind of situating ourselves continuously in a network of differentiation and assumptions brings a certain trouble with us that just...

[13:34]

gets us more and more entangled with the objects of our mind rather than really seeing our mind how it really is. It gets us entangled with the clouds. It gets us stuck into the weather patterns instead of really just appreciating that there is the sky and there is sun. And there is sun. And that sun, again, is this power that we take refuge in. It's the sun that can dispel the clouds that we take refuge in. So again, talk a little more about this refuge that Dogen here in this quote proposed to be a communion, a communion between the awakened one and the one not yet, between the sun and the clouds, so to speak. In this communion, because we want relationship, we are so yearning for support, language.

[14:37]

language that can guide us different like differentiation and yet the very thing that we seek is that which is free of differences free of reference points so how much is that uh attention right like constantly guiding our way through language through stories through images and yet at the same time that very thing that we are seeking is free of that So here in Kringalj, we have a representation of this awakening in the form of Manjushri. Manjushri made a vow to reside at Mount Wutai in China. So I'm not sure if any of you have ever traveled there. But he made this vow...

[15:39]

to show up there, whoever seeks there for him. And if he wouldn't, his head would split in a thousand pieces. So he has a strong vow of being right there. And a lot of pilgrims have made it to that place in order to look for him. And there's one story of a fellow from Tibet. He's like told Manjushri devotee and he really wanted to go to Mount Wutai. Meeting Manjushri in person, like really meeting him. And yes, it's a story of somebody seeking outside. So he goes there and doesn't have much money. So he's like parking, camping in the backyard of an inn. And And so he goes there shouting out the name of Manchester on the mountain and at night coming back to the inn trying to get some rest.

[16:42]

And the inn at night is totally busy with partying young teenagers. And so he can't help look at them because he can't sleep. They're partying really loud. And he notices one particular young fellow who, you know, is flirting with all the girls. you know, challenging the boys. And the young fellow notices him too. And he's like, what are you doing here? You know, like, yeah, I'm looking for Manchester. And, you know, he said he's going to show up. And I've been looking here for three weeks already. I have not seen him. And the fellow says, you know, it's getting winter soon. You better go. You know, it's getting, Mount Wutai is really cold. It's high elevation. You better go. You know, there's nobody here called Manchester. And the fellow was by that time really tired. He's like, okay, okay. But since where are you going?

[17:44]

Where are you going back to? How are you going back? He's like, well, I guess it goes to Mongolia. It's already snow coming, so I'm going back to Tibet, to Mongolia. And this young boy says, okay, well, if you go to Mongolia and know somebody there, why don't you take a letter from me with you? I'm like, okay. So he has his name on the letter, whatever it is, Sam or whatever. And he takes a letter, goes to Mongolia, you know, weeks later and comes to this place. We're supposed to deliver this letter to this person and goes to an entire town, entire village. Like, do you know somebody called Sam? Do you know somebody's Sam? No, no, nobody knows. Then finally, before he gives up, an old woman approaches him and says, oh, I know Sam. we have a pig back there in the last alley, you know, why don't you, that's the only Sam we know. He's like, okay, it's what, so what, you know?

[18:44]

So he goes, goes to the pig, opens a letter and shows it to the pig. And the pig just stares at the letter like you can see a teardrop and it falls dead. And he's like, what happened, you know? So you read the letter, and the letter says, Dear Sam, your task in that town in Mongolia is over. Please come back to Mount Wutai. And then Manchefri. Signed by Manchefri, and this fellow finally realizes that Manchefri was there. He didn't see him. So how often do we see Manchefri? and don't see him. How often do we aim for one thing and miss the other? I'm really not glad here too, so I'm leaning here on Nagyajuna, who has this beautiful praise of Manjshri that I want to read.

[20:01]

And I want to read it because, you know, in this trying to learn this communion with the awakened beings, we're going about our way. And what is our way? It's a human way. So if we have a guest, we make offerings to them. We give them water, some cookies to eat. If we have a guest come, we might say something nice to them. Like, wow, you have a nice sweater on. Or you look so fresh and young. So we praise them, we relate to them. And why not relate like that to awakening? They are forms of awakening that are our mind, that are reminders of our mind. And before I do, I will praise, I want to say about this form a little bit more. Because, again, so here's this tension.

[21:02]

It's a form. It looks like a person, right? Like, so as of you, see the statue. It's one face, two arms, cross-legged, holding a staff. Looks like a human. It doesn't look like an elephant. Doesn't look like a snake. So here's awakening in the form of a human. And yet there's some symbolism, some silent communication going on. The face is a symbol for the single fear of Dhammadattu. Two arms are representing skillfulness of compassion and wisdom. The cross legs symbolizing the equality of existence and peace. So these are some teachings that are carved into this wood, into an image. Further, peaceful deities like Manchu Sri sitting here among us in the form of this image of a young boy, a large young boy, he is said to have a subtle body, a slender body, which is simple for his pure birth.

[22:24]

He has a pliable body, which is a purification of all disease. And it's an upright body. which is a purification of death. And his usefulness is a purification of old age. So the image of Manjushri is that of the freedom of birth, old age, sickness and death. The one single sphere of the one reality that we all share. And the knowledge and love that we are in our mind. So as I read this phrase of Naga Chuna, why don't you explore receiving it? If Manjushri represents the nature of our mind, why not receive it? Fully receive it. And when you come to the end of your ability to receive it as your own mind, just rejoice in it being Manjushri.

[23:28]

Manjushri, that which is here for us to relate to, to ask for, to knock on a gate, to learn about our own mind. So you can go back and forth between this is you or this is awakening that you want to be. Homage to youthful Manjushri. You do not arrive and you do not depart. You do not rise and you do not remain. You thoroughly transcend this world. Yours is a domain beyond words. O protector, how should I praise you? As the world conceives of you, just so I too exalt and honor you in my devotion for you, O Guru. By your very nature, you are unborn. For you, there can be no arisings. protector who neither comes nor goes, to you the insubstantial I offer homage and praise.

[24:38]

You are neither real nor unreal, neither void nor everlasting, neither constant nor transitory, to you the non-dual I offer homage and praise. You are not red or green or crimson, you are not yellow, white or black. You do not have any color at all. To you, the colorless, I offer homage and praise. You are neither large nor small, neither heavyset nor slender. Your form is neither tall nor short. To you, the sizeless, I offer homage and praise. In your wisdom, you are not confined to existence. Out of compassion, you do not dwell in peace. You do not remain in either samsara or nirvana. To you, the non-abiding, I offer homage and praise. You do not reside in phenomena. You is a civilization of all things.

[25:43]

You are sustained by supreme profundity. To you, the profound, I offer homage and praise. Like this, I could exalt you repeatedly. For how else might I offer you praise? In the emptiness of all phenomena, who is there to offer praise? To whom? You have no limits, no center. To you, the inconceivable, beyond perceiver and perceived, I offer homage and praise. This is the expression of the ultimate attributes of the guru and protector Manchu Gosha. Through the merits of this, may this world... come to resemble the one gone to bliss. I want to open up to questions and comments in order to make this more of a conversation, but I forgot the clock after all.

[26:50]

there's no question yet I will add some more so you can stir your mind a little bit so you know as I mentioned earlier some of us go through the ceremony of taking refuge and since we are coming from this kind of Abrahamic background, ceremonies are sometimes seen as, you know, like a one-time event. And in particular, this refugee ceremony, it took me myself a while to like see it's not just, it's not like a baptism of some sort, you know, like you're like part of a club now or you like, you know, you did this one thing and this kind of brand, brands you, that kind of branding.

[28:18]

It actually is more like, like I said, you can take refuge right now. You can go in front of an image of the Buddhas, take refuge, or you can, in your own mind, just really yearn and call out for the refuge to as an awakened one. All of that is fine. A ceremony itself just marks it in front of everybody, kind of giving a momentum, giving a strength. Ceremonies are very powerful. And levels that are like beyond the intellect, like just really helping yourself, making the step before beyond the intellectual reasonings. And then it's all of this way of getting the support net. for yourself to continue refuge, because refuge is a daily practice. The founder of this lineage, Dogen himself, by the time before he died, he had a pillar in his room, and he would walk around the pillar taking refuge over and over.

[29:29]

So refuge is actually an hourly, momentary, daily practice, and the ceremony helps to remind you and collect the support network through community and teachers and sangha friends to continue this practice. So how would this practice now look in your daily life? Because, of course, the words itself are very intellectual, right? Like, I take refuge in Buddha, and then what is Buddha? What does refuge mean? You know, is there anything different now? Am I supposed to feel different? All of that. I feel the hands-on refuge is really, again, just an open heart. Having an open heart that allows to go beyond our ideas, our opinion, our prejudices.

[30:38]

And it's this open heart that is all of the gateway of love that we are, or the love to come through that we are. And it's this open heart that also allows for flexibility. And one way how this open heart is being practiced is by remembering impermanence. Impermanence evokes sadness. And of course, it's, you know, we are often more engaged in creating something and establishing something. So remembering impairments is counter to that. It really reminds that everything we do is actually bound to fall apart. So it can be initially discouraging to be like, why would I want to focus on that which falls apart?

[31:41]

Yeah, why are we doing this? Because it's leading us to this openness of our heart, this openness that is love, that is us, that is our true, you know, the sun behind the clouds. That's a mind of renunciation, renouncing the objects in our experience and really falling back into the present moment. into the present experience and into an acceptance of what is, at this time, experienced. An acceptance of the stories, like letting them stop their engagement for at least some time to have that openness engulf you, engulf everybody around you. And I feel like to some extent many of you probably have that experience over and over and just looking for ways to stabilize it.

[32:52]

Particularly those who joined the practice period and are about to go into Sashin, that is exactly the time to learn to stabilize that openness that we are, that awakening that we are. Sashin, as you will hear tonight, is this time to really care for this concern for awakening and this concern and the true being of ourselves that is an open heart. And there are many practices throughout the day that will support that. And some of these practices might encourage you at home to apply that too. Even so, it's harder. It is harder. It is not easy in your workplace or in your family life in the middle of a lot of demands. to really stay open. That's why we go into retreat and solitude. That's why we take time out. Like right now, you are taking time out.

[33:53]

And so Seixin in particular, you are in one group, so it really helps to show up, do your schedule, because your neighbor probably very much appreciates having you there, having that comfort of a fellow sitter right there. Then being in silent, being really focused on one's mind helps to not fall into these different images and stories that we constantly perpetuate. Just, you know, knowing that whatever's going on in the mind, these are the clouds. There is a cloudless sky and striving or... not striving, not quite the right word, having devotion to that. Having devotion to that cloudless sky. Even so, if there's clouds there, just keep having that devotion. And then having images like Manchester in the center here, reminding us that it is possible in this very body, in this very life, to achieve, to manifest, to actualize, to verify.

[35:07]

this awakening. And in this way, for example, the secret instructions, for example, of our Yoki is, you are feeding Manjushri. You are nurturing, awakening. When you walk down the hall, you know, if you see something beautiful, you are offering it to awakening. If you see a flower, you are offering it, you rejoice. If you see somebody else do something beautiful, you rejoice. You're happy. Like some server is doing a good job. You were happy. You rejoice. Rejoicing, celebrating, being open to what's happening. It's so simple. And yet we need that support. So any questions about that? Question from the online sangha.

[36:14]

Can you clarify how one takes steps for deepening, taking refuge in the Buddha? This is from John. Hi, John. So, what is Buddha? Buddha is the unconditioned. That which is unconditioned. So, contemplating impermanence, contemplating how what we see is compounded, is temporary, everyone we know will have to die. We ourselves will have to die. Contemplating impermanence is a huge step towards the unconditioned. Seeing things like a dream, like a waterfall, like a bubble, seeing it as kind of temporary, Knowing everything, no matter if it's like a really painful image or a joyful image, knowing it to be temporary is a huge step towards opening to the unconditioned, opening to that which is beyond words, beyond conceptual constructions.

[37:28]

And then knowing that no outer circumstances giving us this awakening, there is no... handing over of anything. It's realized with self-awareness. It's realized it's in our own mind. It's the dawning of the sun in our own mind. And that can happen instantly. There's no time, there's no like, okay, you have to do X, Y, and Z, and only then. It can happen instantly. We do not know what the cause and conditions of our past have been. obviously they have been pretty well because you wouldn't have been interested in the Dharma. You wouldn't have the interest in awakening in Buddha if you didn't have already kind of a momentum of that in your life, a momentum and an experience. I can very much imagine that all of you have an experience of the unconditioned already, that you all already have experience of love and care in your life.

[38:41]

And because of that, that interest in awakening, that bodhicitta, that mind that wants more of that, is there. So it's really just jumping on a surfboard and riding that wave and nurturing it and perpetuating more of that activity, that interest in that opening. So concretely, contemplate impermanence. Thank you very much for the talk. Can you hear me? Yeah, I can hear you. Yeah, I really liked you bringing up the devotional aspect of practice. I guess I would admit, as someone who's very westernized and grew up in Abrahamic traditions, it feels very unnatural, at least initially, kind of devoting to bodhisattvas and Buddhas and all of the mythology stories around them.

[39:58]

Yeah. I guess I'm wondering if you have any suggestions on how to ease into devotional practice, whether it's devoting to a quality like compassion or love, or whether it's devoting to bodhisattvas, Buddhas in some other capacity. Yeah. Devotion itself is a hard practice, and yet I find... our culture, myself included, we more easily step into it through what's called rational devotion. So rational devotion being which you already do all the time, for example, like, you know, if you find, oh, I'm really tired in the morning and I drink green tea that helps me perk up and be ready for my work, then And you might develop a practice of drinking green tea every morning out of that.

[41:02]

One could call that rational devotion of having a certain conviction in the efficacy of something. And so in that regard, if one, for example, finds that you're sitting, daily sitting, is helping... you in your daily life then it's that is also a form of rational devotion to be like I really feel different if I have sat in the morning or not then one develops a practice out of that and one has faith in it and has kind of rational faith yeah so and that's a kind of a form of commitment that comes out of it so so the difference to like devotion I feel um Devotion very easily can be equalized as just being committed to something and nurturing something out of faith.

[42:04]

But it also may be in this heart quality. It's this ability to have affection. It's an affection. And this affection really, again, comes out of this... knowing your own self-worth, knowing your own skills, your abilities, and enjoying that, like really knowing yourself as being a precious person as a first stepping stone. They really know that nobody talks like you and nobody is drawing a cat like you, whatever, you know? Like... There are certain things that are so unique. And when you die, these are the things that people will talk on your grave of that they're going to miss. And that because of that, your world is richer. You know, this would not be the world without you.

[43:10]

The world would not be like that. And part of me feels sad when I say that because I know how often actually people think they don't matter. It really hurts. I mean, just looking at the suicide rate, it hurts. I think as a culture, we deprive ourselves by not celebrating us. So learning to celebrate us, learning to see our uniqueness, learning And, you know, in a humble way too. We are impermanent. We, you know, and we need to still learn a lot. There's a lot less to learn, you know, and to play with, to explore. Not as a lack, but just as, you know, as an opportunity. So from that kind of place of kind of richness,

[44:15]

I feel like maybe devotion really needs a sense of knowing your own riches. And once you know your own riches, it is so easy to love. It's just so easy to turn towards somebody else and admire their beauty and admire their uniqueness. And it's also more easy to celebrate. Their parties become so easy. And then if it comes to this awakening, the awakening, that really comes more and more and really marking within ourselves these tiny moments of awakening that are already there. We already have them. Like again, I really believe all of you had moments of awakening that are beautiful. It's just this

[45:16]

moment of purity that is beyond words, however it comes to you. It comes to people differently. Don't compare. They come differently to different people. And once those moments of awakening, they nurture them. They're like a spark in the dark. And can we nurture that spark? What are the ways to nurture it? And again, there are traditional ways to do that. most of the ways are making offerings, making gifts. And I hear you, there's this link between, well, if I want to make these gifts, I seem to have to make them to these images or traditional forms that I'm not quite yet comfortable with. Did I hear you correctly? Yeah. So I think it's there where,

[46:16]

where I remember the story of a dear Eno, who was sitting over there, pretty desperate, because she was very busy. I think Enos are pretty busy. And she looked at Manchifri in her desperation and prayed to Manchifri. And later on, she ran around and told everybody to do the same thing, because it really worked for her. It really did. And I remember that at that time, I was like, that's not me. We're glad it worked for you, but it's not me. And at the same time, somehow, in some other way, I came around to the same pretty desperate moment, having a Manchester statue right in front of me, praying really heavily, and it worked. So in that way, keep the door open. You know what I'm saying? Like, even if you say right now, oh, that's not me. It doesn't mean it loses the validity for that opportunity.

[47:21]

It's there. It's like electric wire. How do we connect? So you didn't find your way of connecting. It doesn't mean you won't find it. But I don't want to tell it to you because it's really your unique way of doing it. But listen to what other people say and don't dismiss it. Because there's a whole tradition of doing it. 2,500 years of people saying, this worked. Like, this worked. And at one point, you're like, oh, it does work. Maybe not right now, not in this way, but in some way. Just keep at it. Just keep open to it. And honor the stories. You mentioned play, and I was just curious on how you bring play into your practice.

[48:32]

Personally, so my husband, honestly speaking. And also, again, remembering actually impermanence. Because... the more, I'm German, I can get very serious. The Germans tend to be very serious. And people think a lot and take, you know. And having the ability through impermanence, through the contemplation of impermanence, to loosen some of that seriousness. You know, then there are so many moments where it's like, I don't agree with it. I don't think that's, you know, smart or helpful or whatever. But that's what it is right now. And I don't need to mess with it, you know. Like I don't need to add my prejudice and opinions on top of it. But I just let it.

[49:38]

So it's kind of like, you know, the least tension, letting something be. And then once one is able to let it, not fighting it, not resisting it, then there is like some opportunity where actually maybe like one notices something one hasn't noticed before because one was so wrapped up in one's prejudice and opinion about the situation that once that is kind of like, okay, it's an impermanent situation. It's really not what I want. It's not what I like, but that's what it is. And once that kind of like relaxation is already there, then one maybe notices something that hasn't noticed before. And once one notices something one hasn't noticed before, then curiosity can come up. And so that curiosity, then there are gateways to ask questions or to propose something different, to be like, looks like this is what's happening.

[50:43]

I'm not going to go into what I think about it. But why do you wear that green hat? whatever you know just like play with it you know just like get something out from a different angle you know look for it and then like um the other person has the same chance to be like less serious or or the situation itself has the chance to present itself differently yeah makes sense any other questions Manchishri, she's holding a microphone to Manchishri. That's true. Hi, thank you for being here.

[51:45]

I'm... curious if you have a story or an experience um from your time in Nepal recently um that reminds you of some of the things you spoke about today refuge ritual or any of the other things yes I was in a um in a cave um that also um powerful pilgrimage site, not only for Buddhists, but also for people of the Shaivite faith. And that was an interesting merging, because Buddhists tend to be very quiet, and the Shaivites were not into quiet. In fact, I had a drum and a cymbal at the same time, hitting it really, really hard, and I was like, didn't quite, no rhythm, nothing. It was just like... straight hitting. That was like, you know, like the thing of like, I don't understand it.

[52:51]

You know, I don't understand it. And over time, I like really, they're demonstrating power. But then Buddhists demonstrate powers of being silent. So it was just this odd way of being together in this cave. Yeah. So it was definitely the task for me to look for silence in the middle of really loud noise. And at the same time, I felt so moved. All of it. I wouldn't want to miss any of it. I wouldn't want to just be like, I'm doing it this way, and I don't want your way. I wanted it all. I wanted the silence and the noise at the same time, and it was so helpful. And particularly, the devotion in that place. It was an eight-hour drive, horrendous roads.

[53:54]

But then I don't even know where those people came from. Early in the morning, at 6 o'clock, a line longer than the football field were just wanting to go into that cave to pay homage, to express devotion. And... And probably if one would make an interview of everyone there, they would have all these different reasons, different viewpoints, whatever. But the expression of wanting to see, like all these buses would go there, they all had it written on their darshan. That was the purpose of the whole pilgrimage was to see. To see what? To see our own mind. Like sometimes we do this, you know, extra step to the side in order to arrive in the center, you know, we like, it's like maybe the little dance play step that we do to like, you know, come to Queen Gulch in order to look at your mind, you know.

[55:04]

I mean, it's like, I think an answer, a question of why does not really ever answer it. And that's the beauty of it, I feel. That both can be there. It can always be all of it. That we don't have to lose anything. And yet we do want to, you know, make this practice of keep opening our heart and play with, you know, direct ourselves to give ourselves, um, thank, devote, revere, honor, praise, love, care, um, it makes us human. And it makes it, um, more fun. Yeah.

[56:10]

So if there's any other questions, I, um, thank you for coming. online or in here and beg you to in the next hour days months and years to continue deeply trusting your heart seeing how beautiful you are trusting the love that you are and share it

[56:38]

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