This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. My name is Shobo and this is Kokyo. And we are both coming from Santa Cruz Zen Center. And let me know if you... Need me to speak up more? So, we are here for three days to study with you. And this is like three afternoons. We're going to get together to look at bodhicitta's awakening, awakened heart. And because this kind of process of a discussion, which would be great to... really like exchange ideas and thoughts here in this practice setting.

[01:02]

And also involves just clarifying language, you know, because we are talking. And on one premise I'm already proposing at the beginning is like every word, any word I'm going to use is going to disappoint you. And any word you're going to use might be also pretty difficult. Why is that? So one thing is that the truth we want to talk with you about awakening is inexpressible. So that means any word you use is not going to do the job of reaching enlightenment, reaching awakening. Any action I'm going to do and any action you're going to do is not going to reach enlightenment. But does this mean enlightenment is something that's totally apart from us? Well then, there's no point of practice, right? There would be no point, there would be no awakened ones. But there have been awakened ones. And so is it the same as every word? It's not the same as every word.

[02:05]

So what you're proposing, what we want to try out with you, is the thing that the awakened mind is a mind free of the two obscurations. And the two obscurations are afflictions, afflictive emotions, and cognitive obscuration. which is ignorance. So a mind, the definition of awakening, is a mind that is free of afflictive emotions and of ignorance. So what are afflictive emotions? Afflictive emotions are greed, hate, delusion, pride, doubt, and wrong view. That's the six classic ones. And the wrong view is also the cognitive, basically the cognitive afflictive emotion. And this cognitive afflictive emotion is basically the view of self, the holding oneself as supreme to others.

[03:08]

So view that things are eternal or that they're not exist at all. So nihilism and eternalism. Extremes, view of extremes. All these views, you know, they are errors. And that's why the Buddha was saying, you got to look for the middle way. The middle way of like, it's not like totally unreachable and it's not anything works. It's something in the middle. It's not two and it's not one. It's a path in the middle. Another phrase that brings out this paradox is to say, this is it. And you've probably heard that before. This is it. So what is it? It is this mind that is free of all afflictive and cognitive obscuration, a mind that's free of any crap.

[04:12]

And the mind that's the closest to that is an awakening mind. It's a progressive mind. And in the past, the people who made it there, the people who realized the mind that is free of all the errors, of any obscuration, they told us there's a map to get there. Now, one thing I find in conversations and in my own mind is like... When I head towards this, when I head towards this is it, you know, it. Like this it is an awakening that always like comes to be so exalted, so big, so huge. It's like this thing that's unreachable. And I'm just curious, you know, we're here so small and little and limited. And another way, like a nightmare is also defined by our founder, he was saying, it is like complete contentment. It's completeness. And then it's like, well, my experience sure has a lot to do with feeling incomplete and feeling dissatisfied, you know, various dissatisfactions.

[05:22]

And so how, like, basically then the idea comes along to like, okay, in order to be at it, I gotta get rid of this, which is like, you know, the discontent. In order to be content, I gotta get rid of discontent. In order to be complete, I've got to work up on my incompleteness. So this kind of tension that we're working with is kind of solved in this phrase, this is it. And it's kind of a little coin there. And so this is everything right now you see, right? Every appearance, every word you hear. But if you pick up, like, is this it? No. Is what I'm saying it? No. You know, there's a certain kind of, if you look at all the little things, it's not satisfying enough. But the it is a completeness. And it's right here. It's like the big mind, Father David was saying yesterday.

[06:24]

And it's right here. It's never separate. It's just right here. And then there is this thing of like, I don't trust that because I feel crappy. How would that help me if you tell me this is it? I got to feel it. I got to know it. Well, the good news is people say, you know, it can be known. It can be known. So the one who wants to know it, the one who is like, oh, I stay open to this. I'm not going to leave the room and, like, you know, say, oh, this is all crap. I'm going to, you know, go to the bath instead. The one that wants to, like, okay, what is it? You know, let's inquire here. Let's have a conversation. Let's talk about it. That's like the mind that wants to merge with it. with this, that's right here. And Socrates even, you don't even have to go in Buddhist terms, even Socrates was like conversation, you know, you find the truth in conversation, you know, just talk and you will find it because, why? Because the yearning in your heart is it already.

[07:26]

The yearning that knows of this big mind is the mind in you that, they call it Bodhicitta, the mind of awakening, and Dogen compares it to a firefly. It's like the thought, I want to reach enlightenment. I want to know it. That thought alone, it has a power to merge with the big mind right here. And what does it get us to really merge right here with this big mind? It's the momentum that we are on, you know. It's kind of like whatever car momentum you're having or walking momentum or whatever momentum you're having, that's going to push you. So our thoughts have a momentum. Like if you have the plan to go to the bath today, there is a chance you're going to do that, right?

[08:32]

If you have the habit of like... drinking coffee in the evening, there is a chance you're going to do it today again. So this momentum of habit formation, past thoughts, past opinions, experiences, any accumulation of past experiences is the momentum we're having right now. And that's a lot of material to work with. That's basically our ticket. That's our ticket to enlightenment. Because this is right here. And all we need to go on is, I want to know it. That's like the thought of awakening. It's right here. I want to know it. What do I work with? I work with what I'm having right now. Like right now I'm having a dry mouth. So there's a common disposition of wanting to drink something.

[09:35]

And that's cause and effect. And then I'm having the idea it's going to change and maybe help me talk some more or at least give you a break to talk, ask me a question. So there is like potential there and it's creative. It's not stuck. Like we always say like, oh, formations are evil. What I'm, you know, it brought me so much suffering in my life. You know, that's why we kind of like to retreat from our life because like, you know, I was kind of getting dizzy there on my ride, you know, and I want to go on a quiet place and look at my mind. But of course, especially if you had like a difficult life before you got to a quiet place, the chance is you're still somewhat dizzy when you're here. Why don't I hand it over to you? And we wanted to make a conversation. And the reason we wanted to make a conversation is like when I talk to Kokyo and when I talk to other Dharma sisters and brothers, feel like we bounce each other's off.

[10:46]

And it's what you probably know as being in Sangha. Sometimes it helps. Sometimes it helps lift you up. Sometimes it tracks you down. So right now we hope this organization will be uplifting. And that's all usable. Sure. Yes? The observations are observations because they obscure the awakened light. Yeah. If you can address those two things, then the awakened light is naturally there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's like the sun, it's right there, and then the clouds are just coming and going. So there might be even, and that's the beauty of it, we probably all experienced already the great mind. We probably all did. I mean, I'm totally confident that we actually all know what we talk about. It's just we don't label it. That's where the language comes in. It's like with language, you are able to clarify your experience. Like we say, run as high for a good moment after running.

[11:47]

And so it's got coded. And we don't call it enlightenment because we know it has to do with certain causes and conditions and it doesn't last. But it's a good moment. You shouldn't disparage it. It's an open moment. I mean, that's what they... It's the beauty of it. They say, one way you know you're making progress is if you're opening and you're softening. If you feel an inner openness in you and you feel an inner softening. And that's one sign you see your progress. And actually, later on, if I get to it, I want to talk more about those five traditional paths that describe that process of clearing the clouds from the sun... Do you want to... No, I don't mind. I need to... You said that we can't find meaning in the particular clip. Rather, you say this is it. Yeah. What does that mean by the particular and what does that mean by this is it?

[12:55]

This. This. Any appearance of your sight, of your sound, taste. That's... This is like the material of our sensual experience. So why can't you find meaning anymore? Why kind of what? Why is not that a potential story you find meaning? Meaning? Enlightenment. Enlightenment? Because it fools you. It's like your mind is grabbing onto it. It's like there's a story of a king who really wanted to see his citizens. And he gave them two hours to come. And there were rooms of good food and, you know, people gambling and listening to music. And the people who wanted to see the king are all sidetracked in all these, like, appearances. And then two hours were over and they missed the chance. So that's kind of like an analogy for our life of, like, we are here, we really want to, we really yearn for it, you know?

[13:56]

And then we get sidetracked in, he did it like that, I can't believe it, you know? like in opinions and about something we saw and you know notions about like this is pleasant this is unpleasant i go with a pleasant i don't go with unpleasant it's kind of it's a lot of um it's a movement it's not bad though it's just like unfortunate to miss the background of the painting if you keep looking in the front the background you gotta look at the background so would you say that Actually, this is it. It's just that this tends to distract us from it. Even though, in the end, this is it. It's just... And again, to go like, this is it, that's what crazy people say, right? I mean, to go literally, you're too tight. And if you totally ignore it and think it doesn't matter, you're too loose.

[14:58]

It's kind of something between too tight, Of like saying, this is it. Or too loose. Oh, well, it doesn't matter. Whatever. Or there's, you know, it could have no relationship to this. It would be like too loose, maybe. Yeah. This is it. It's too tight. But this has nothing to do with it. It's too loose. So you talked about cause and effect. And so how... Everything we're doing has an effect. Every intention and motivation has an effect. If we think we're going to go to the bathhouse, there's a good chance that we end up going. So there's a strong connection between intention and how things play out. And one of the old Indian Bodhisattva teachers said there's three kinds of motivation in practice, in the practice of Buddhadharma.

[15:59]

three kinds of overall intentions and motivations and first one is well we just want to like be basically we just want to be basically at ease here and now just even for a moment we'll be okay we're stressed out so we want to go to Zazen to relax and We might have to then go back to our stressful work or something, but that doesn't matter. I just want to cool out for this period of zazen. So we could say temporary happiness and peace is one motivation. And it's valid. It's a dharmic motivation for practice. And maybe we all actually come to practice with this motivation. I imagine that. I think I did. Because we maybe haven't even thought of any other motivation.

[17:05]

My life is kind of stressed out. I'm looking for some way to shift it into a more peaceful situation. We're not thinking about long term. And even if we're thinking long term, we're not thinking about eternal peace. So this is the first motivation. Second motivation would be kind of like... eternal peace or like I want to be completely at ease free from suffering at peace in an ongoing way that doesn't depend on particular conditions like the quiet Zendo I want to find this peace that like is you know pervades all situations and lifetime to lifetime will never be lost because it's so all pervading that we could call like nirvana. It's the unconditioned peace that doesn't come and go. It's unchanging ease and total happiness.

[18:13]

So that's the second motivation. You can see how it's a little different, right? And we probably don't think of that one at the beginning of practice. It's too grand and vast, right? It's too much. But then as you started practicing, you started hearing these kinds of teachings, right? The Buddha, um, that's the, supposedly the Buddha's realization is that there's this, uh, unchanging peace that even after the body dies, this pari nirvana, complete, unhindered cessation of suffering. Second motivation. And the third motivation is, uh, wishing this complete, unchanging, unhindered, unconditioned peace and ease for all sentient beings throughout the universe. So that's also way beyond both the first and the second one. The second is just from this body and mind. The third is not just this body and mind, but I want this everlasting, unconditioned piece of nirvana for the smallest insects.

[19:20]

and the nastiest people and including myself throughout space and time not even that are alive right now but like you know all beings forever and ever so this third type of motivation these are like motivate why we would practice this third type is traditionally called bodhicitta we might say the other two are related especially the second could be like it's a wish for enlightenment aspiration for enlightenment for myself so in the sometimes the mahayana tradition will kind of look back at earlier teachings and say that's like the path of the arhat completely free but they're and they of course wish everybody well but they're they don't have this like burning wish and vow that all beings throughout space and time be completely free from suffering so this bodhisattva thing gets so vast and that would be the bodhicitta motivation so I think these three motivations are interesting to look at in our own practice to reflect on well actually I've never even thought about the second two at all maybe I've been practicing for a while I'm still like looking for just a little relaxation in my stressful life you know at the time of Zazen or whatever and they're all good they're all valid motivations for practice but

[20:50]

From a bodhisattva perspective it's like we want to be open at least to this third possibility of wanting this unconditioned peace for all beings. So since it involves all beings it's a relational thing. So often when they're talking about this bodhisattva path opening this bodhicitta this aspiration for complete awakening for the benefit of all beings for the complete benefit of all beings for the complete awakening of all beings we start with just basically like kindness loving kindness friendliness I mean if we're yeah I have this wish that all beings be completely free from suffering but actually like don't really like anybody. And I don't really have to get along with anybody.

[21:50]

And it's a little contradictory. So we start with basic kindness and trying to harmonize with others. Loving kindness, metta or maitri. Which is defined as the wish that may all beings be happy. And then there's compassion, which is the wish may all beings be free from suffering. So that's We can't really develop this third kind of motivation called bodhicitta without this compassion, which is the wish. I really want others to be free from suffering. We could have compassion, this wish that others be free, without ever having heard about nirvana and the unconditioned peace of Buddha. I just hope that they can be free from suffering. I just see suffering and I feel this compassion. Many of us naturally feel this way. But you can see compassion is not yet bodhicitta. So first there's loving kindness, just kind of warming up to this.

[22:53]

Then there's compassion, which is opening to the suffering of others and wanting them to be free from suffering. And then we hear these teachings, there's this possibility to be completely free from suffering in this ongoing, unchanging, unconditioned way that the Buddha speaks of. We want that for all beings. Now we're talking about bodhicitta. And so part of the implication is we want to help carry all beings into this complete freedom and ease means like we have to know a lot about it ourselves, right? And there's some debate about how much we might just not really know exactly what that means but have some sense of it. And I wish others to be free and we might feel like, no, I have to actually be a Buddha completely first. because how else would I lead others to Buddhahood if I'm not, if I don't understand what a Buddha is. So this is another kind of, this is a kind of classification of types of bodhicitta.

[24:00]

So we have these three types of motivation, one of which is called bodhicitta. Now there's three types of bodhicitta. One is, and they're kind of metaphors for different types of beings. The first one's like the king-like bodhicitta, like the courage of a king. And the metaphor is that The king rules over all the subjects. They have all power and all knowing of what's going on throughout their empire. And from this exalted place of the king, then they can actually send out their ministers and beneficial army to help all beings in every way. So the king, like what he teaches, first realize complete Buddhahood with all qualities of Buddha, infinite skillful means, and then from that high position of the king, we help all the subjects. The second type of bodhicitta is like a ferry boat captain crossing over the shore to freedom, the shore bondage to freedom, and basically we're guiding the ferry boat, but everybody's on it with us, and we're all going at the same speed.

[25:16]

It's not like we take the ferry boat over and say, hey y'all, swim on over. We're like, we're all going to go together. We haven't reached the other shore either. We're all on the same boat and we arrive together. And the third type of bodhicitta is like the shepherd, which is like, we're just, our job is just to take care of the sheep and our whole Our whole job is to just ensure the well-being and happiness of these sheep. We just care for them, attend for them. And we're sleeping out on the mountainside in the rain, kind of sacrificing our own well-being for the sake of these sheep, like a good shepherd. So you could say it looks like the king-like is a little bit more maybe arrogant or selfish. And the shepherd is the most selfless. It's kind of like we want others to realize enlightenment before ourselves.

[26:21]

We're just tending them. It seems like that's the most selfless. And the ferry boat's kind of, everyone together is kind of in between. But it's said that all three of these are bodhicitta. They're all legitimate. But the shepherd is the most courageous, sometimes said. I want to throw in here the thought or the proposal that it could be that all three happen actually, that you tune into, that your bodhicitta is tuning into any of those three. Because they, you know, sometimes that spiritual practitioners, we're kind of looking for a new identity. So if you hear those three, You're like, I want to be like this, or I want to be like this. Because you have certain values, you want to follow certain sets of values. But actually the values are always made up with the moment you are in. Like you are getting yourself at every moment.

[27:25]

And sometimes what's needed is you let somebody go first. Get somebody else the credit. Get somebody, you know, then you borrow the shepherd. somebody else, sometimes it's needed that you're actually going to rise up to the occasion and teach somebody something. You know? I mean, you're not fixed because the main concern is I want to help these beings. And then it's up to the being of who you are. And that's kind of like this receiving yourself, like the one definition of enlightenment, like this receiving, having things come forward, receive yourself. And that's That's kind of interesting because, again, because we want to know what the self is, but the proposal is the moment, the present moment makes you. Like, you are the one in the moment. So we could alternate between these.

[28:26]

It's not like you have to sign up for the king, Judy, and for the rest of your life, moment to moment, back and forth, yeah. Or we might resonate with the ferry boat thing of like, well, how can we be separate anyway? How could anyone go before anybody else? Because we're just one being. It might resonate that way. So there's three types of motivation. And again, when you hear these, you can consider in your own practice where you might be at with these different types of bodhicitta motivation. The three examples, the shepherd and the fairy person and the king, could you give examples of modern day life that people could relate to what it's like to identify with one of those approaches, whether it be

[29:30]

A monk, a mom, or a CEO, or like in a real situation. There are some examples. Where you're presented with an opportunity to see and choose and, or give up. Yeah. Yeah, you just brought up a few yourself. Like a monk or a hermit living in the mountains, like on solitary retreat. This issue kind of came up in last night's discussion too, right? How can you help the world if you're just totally isolated like that? But with this king-like bodhicitta, one might feel like, I really feel like I have to clarify the great matter in order to really help all beings. And it's too distracting to live in the chaos of the day-to-day world. I'm going off to retreat. I'm going to Tassahara for 20 years. I'm going into the mountains. But I have this background motivation. I'm doing it. I'm eventually going to come out. In fact, I think everybody comes out of Tassahara.

[30:31]

Nobody's been here since it started. But the motivation to go deeply into solitary retreat with this motivation to clarify reality so that I can help guide others is like a king, like bodhicitta, like monk, secluded, cloistered monk is maybe that... Ideally, it is bodhicitta. It could be that second motivation. It's not really bodhicitta. I just gotta forget about this crazy world. I just gotta escape samsara. But it could be bodhicitta. And for example, Bodhidharma, the Zen founder in China, spent nine years in a cave, as the legend goes. And sometimes he's called a manifestation of Avalokitesvara, the bodhisattva, and great compassion. So there's an example. Great compassion can sit in a cave for nine years.

[31:33]

And then mom was a nice example of the shepherd-like bodhicitta. Most moms probably aren't thinking, I wish my children to realize unsurpassed perfect enlightenment. They maybe don't even know about that. But something like that. I sacrificed my own life for the well-being of my children. And maybe Mother Teresa, her spiritual practice as a nun was to just serve the dying and poor in India as her practice. And maybe it's harder to think of examples of the ferry pilot Um, but maybe like living in Sangha. You know, I really like, we're all working on this together. Let's keep encouraging each other to practice together. Keep, um, however we can find ways to encourage each other's practice.

[32:36]

It's not like me first or you first. We're like one body. I think especially in Zen, um, moving together through practice as one group together has a kind of flavor of this. fairy-like, fairy pilot kind of bodhicitta. One other classification of bodhicitta when they're talking about it is aspiration and application. And the aspiration is just like the intention or motivation which, as we're emphasizing, is so important. really generating this strong intention because that's going to create the effects that's called the aspiration bodhicitta and the application is like when you put it into effect so the aspiration is like I want to go to Tassajara and the application is like you get in the car and you start driving and in this case the application is traditionally said to be the six paramitas many people know giving ethical conduct

[33:46]

patience, diligence, meditative concentration, and wisdom revealing the nature of reality. So that's like, those are practices based on that motivation. Questions? Yes. But in Theravada Buddhism? In Theravada Buddhism, yeah. The concept of the Bodhisattva, which simply comes up, that's what you're saying. But you think it's the way the Madhyamoga, if you want the songs in. And so I was wondering if you really would say the same thing. The way we relate to samsara and Theravada might be different than the way we relate it to. particularly in the context of yourself. Yeah, yeah.

[34:47]

I think, you know, of these three types of motivation, the motivation for practice in general, the Theravada to this thing is like become an Arhat, which is a greatly compassionate being, but their intention is to be free from suffering oneself. So they're not going to harm anyone. We should say they're a completely harmless being. They're free from greed, hate and delusion completely. But they don't have the all-pervading, kind of infinite compassion of the bodhisattva, which is, as you probably know, the bodhisattvas classically defined as they vow to stay in the cycle of samsara, lifetime after lifetime, in order to bring all beings to complete Buddhahood. Whereas the goal of the Theravada path is to not come back. into not be reborn again into samsara so in that way they're you could say they're radically different goals but in fact the practices are very similar and in fact the result may be very similar but the way of talking about it really kind of distinguishes in thinking in thinking about that that's a traditional interpretation and presentation and it's totally dig for it but the uh... uh...

[36:10]

One we have to consider is about, like, in order to describe something that's large, you actually need something that's small. So to describe the Aharhards inside as something small, you know, basically to say it the other way around, to describe how large what Buddhahood inside is, you've got to show people. what small is, right? If you say, this is large and this is small. So you've got to have some comparison. And that's what they ran into. Historically, they were like, in the beginning, where everybody's R-hearts, you know, suddenly all these R-hearts pop out and like, they don't behave like it, you know, we don't believe it. And then the whole religious setup was like, you know, threatened because everybody was like, well, what kind of school is that, you know? And so they had to, and they did. And in a way, it is... Like one of the most difficult things once you're in a very open moment to describe it. It's hard. It seems that if someone is really truly enlightened in the largest, greatest sense of the word, they would naturally

[37:29]

They would naturally want this for everyone. There would just be a spontaneous experience of wanting this for everyone. So, I find this distinction very difficult. Plus, the other question is, what is reborn and what is extinguished? Extinguished? Well, that's what you were saying. It's wanting, it's exciting, to be gone. Okay. So what is it that's extinguished or what is it that's reborn? We're left with that question as far as I can tell. So for those two reasons, maybe a few more, this distinction is disturbing here. The distinction between... There are heart of the body suffering. We've just been talking about... Can I take your first question and you take a second?

[38:33]

Sure. The second one about rebirth? Sure. Because the first one I just couldn't help thinking. I once asked my teacher that same question. I'm like, I don't understand. If there's no view of independent self left, then wouldn't naturally great compassion flow forth for all beings? And he said, so therefore isn't... Then I said, so therefore isn't the Arhat really the same as the Bodhisattva? And he said... Well, you think that because that's your Bodhisattva spirit. And so I leave that as a kind of koan that some people might not necessarily see it that way. So it's a beautiful question. And the second question, what ceases for the Arhan? Maybe that's like an opportunity to talk about the five paths. Okay. There are five paths. The first path is you accumulate. And I'll talk in a minute about what you can accumulate. The second path is the path of preparation.

[39:35]

That's just a short time before the path of seeing. So what's happening in these three paths, the first is how we all start is we listen, we hear the Dharma, we hear about the truth, we hear about great mind, about this is it, we hear about it. And we have a question about it. And then we investigate into it. And that's the path of preparation where you are following causes and conditions that were handed down. Where you follow what's adopted. There are many schools of thought. Buddhism is no different. There are many different schools among Buddhism. But the main is what to adopt and what to reject. And one thing they are pretty much in Buddhism at least say, to be mindful, you better adopt. Because if you're not mindful about your actions, you're just too scared to see anything. So because it's a subtle truth, you've got to like calm down. So that's like one big, you know, and then like, you know, be moderate with your senses, be like, you know, don't go into too big of businesses where you're too engaged in things.

[40:46]

Like any activity that's steering things up too much. You want to calm down because what you want to look at is very subtle. So that's like the path of accumulation where you're working on that to just calm down over and over. Which like once you're like actually coming to an environment like Tazahara, which a lot of people do, they're working on all these stories that are accumulated over their upbringing and conditioning that are pretty disturbing and painful. And you look at them and you see them and you're like... oh, wow, how are you going to live with this? And what can I do to live with this? Because I inherited disturbing stories. So how to live with this? So that's kind of the first stage of figuring things out. And then the path of preparation is like everything's already pretty settled. And what's going to go more and more is like a momentum. The path of preparation is a momentum of... I want to reach enlightenment. And that's kind of like a little bit like we talked earlier about wanting to see the king with all the rooms in front of the king with all the censors.

[41:52]

It's kind of like this momentum of like, I want to see the king and I'm not going to trapped in all this other stuff, which is basically like, okay, you've got your stories, you know them. Like Sukiyoshi said, we never get rid of them. They will be there for the rest of our lives, you know, because we're conditioned. It's very deep. What happened to us in our childhood, what happened, you know, in all our careers and explorations we did, it's had an impact. But so just like effort of, okay, I'm not going to get stuck in it. And I do that with kindness and gentleness. I'm not going to push it away because as you push it away, it's just going to come stronger. So it's kind of like a little bit like martial arts, you know. Here you have these obscurations, these clouds. How do you dance with the clouds? So you kind of like, and you do it, the tradition says, by like, I want to realize awakening. I want to realize enlightenment. And if you then put, I want to read it for the benefit of beings, the tradition says it gives an additional oomph behind it.

[42:54]

Because if you want something just for yourself, It's kind of a little low speed versus if you want it for more people, then it's a more higher gear, kind of like that. If you want it for more people, more is at stake, you know? There's like more at stake to lose. So you give yourself this momentum, this wish to wanting to reach enlightenment, for the benefit of all beings, and you concentrate on it in every action. If anybody wants to look up book 11 in the Avatamsaka Sutra, it's this beautiful summary of all these actions. conjoined with a wish of wanting to reach enlightenment for the benefit of all beings and just do that. And that's like a path of preparation. And that's getting so strong. And they say, you know, they call it the gateless gate. Okay, here it is. The gate. That's the moment you reach enlightenment, which is the moment of complete non-conceptual realization. Like there's no conceptual overlay.

[43:55]

And you approach it. I want to reach the enlightenment. And you approach it. And is it this? Is it this? And you approach it. And by the path of seeing, you have it. You have this moment of complete, perfect seeing, non-conceptually. But what you realize, there was no gate in the first place. That's what you see. Because a gate is conceptual construction. So the moment you see that directly... This is it. This is it. Oh my God. It's this big mind where you're like, all right. However, conceptual momentum has been built up and it's going to pop up again. And we all had these moments, these three moments. And then something else comes up again. And then what's happening afterwards is stabilization. So once you're at this moment of direct seeing emptiness, you have this whole period afterwards of stabilization.

[45:01]

If they would have told me when I started that work practice is actually stabilizing a meditation practice, I probably would have thought into it more. But I always thought I just had to go to work. But actually, it's like this period after your meditation where you want to clarify your insights. You want to clarify. Am I really going to buy into, you know, whatever it is? Am I still that much attached to what's going on? You want to see where you're at. It's kind of like a testing ground. And that's happening after that. And actually, they get so... Because, again, the big mind is so subtle. that they do it like those people who are actually on it, what I heard, they know how to do these jhana meditations, and they go up and down and up and down purposely. And they go into other realms, they go see the hell realms and the ghost realms and the heaven realms, and they just go there and they check out how stable.

[46:12]

And with that, I mean, they don't move. physically, but it's with your vision. Your vision changes. It's a little bit like what I thought today. The path of normal learning, which is the last path, which is like there's nothing for you to know anymore. You know it all. That's kind of like the ocean. And here we are in a valley. And the ocean is there. But that's why they describe going on the mountaintop. You go, but the way you kind of learn the ocean is by studying water holes. So you look at water holes, and then you may be like, well, this water hole doesn't suit me. I don't want to study it. Then you go to a different water hole. And they actually recommend you really just study a water hole.

[47:13]

speaking a school of methods or a school of thought, that suits you. And then you go to the total end of it. You're like, anything I can know about it, I'm gonna know. And then once you exhaust that, you have some language for the experience of a lake. Once you know the waterhole, you can talk about lakes because they're just a little larger. And then once you're familiar with this lake and you don't get seasick on a lake, you're ready for the ocean. So it's kind of like this familiarizing with something that's just super vast and super subtle. And because it's so subtle, we need to have a training and language that guides us in this process. And generally, that's what in the Buddhist tradition, They have the sudden school and the gradual schools.

[48:15]

And the sudden schools, that's where Zen leans into is like, just can't talk about it. That's it. And you lean into that. Because you still have to say something, you still have to do something. Do it with the most enlightened mind that you can. But we're not going to try to explain it. We just test it over and over every moment. Was this it or not? What about this? You know, it's just over and over. And then the casual is like, well, how was that? How did it feel? How did it, can we, like, it's trying to put language on it. It's like so much language. I mean, you go in the library, it's like huge. And then there are different strands, you know, Mahamudra, Dzogchen, like, you know, mindfulness trainings, you know, whatever works, wherever you're at. And in a way, it's like, You know, some people fall into this thing of, like, this club thinking of, like, I belong in this section because I feel most familiar and I'm having a commitment, you know.

[49:20]

But it's fine. You can explore, you know, because it's flexible. And sometimes you need to learn some more language in order to describe your non-conceptual experience, you know. And then you try out the sudden thing again. And then you go back more gradual and sudden. So they're not contradictory, even though... A lot of history I was trying to say. Could you summarize the five paths? That was the whole overview, but to put it all together. One sentence for each or something? Sure. If you say after you read something about question, something more. Yeah, and we never really got into this question of this Arhat Bodhisattva rebirth question. We might want to save rebirth as a whole topic for tomorrow or something. Yeah. But we could see. Well, the rebirth is basically, it's cause and effect. And we're going to talk about it more. But it's cause and effect, completely trusted.

[50:23]

And the summary of the five paths is, again, first the conceptual effort, reaching a non-conceptual goal, and then testing that goal. and stabilizing that inside until there's nothing that hinders you anymore, like no obscuration whatsoever. It's like a movement, a process. Yes? You say something about, so we need our kinderances, our hate, illusion, greed. I think there's a tendency, I fail with myself, to want to get past those, but actually there's a lot of good information there. We learn a lot about ourselves and that and about other people and how important is it to actually find out that we have anger.

[51:31]

We can really want to avoid that for whatever reasons. you know, a parent that didn't want you to show any feelings or something, and so to actually have those feelings, and that's okay actually. We can learn from them as long as we keep looking back. What can we learn from it, and when is it appropriate to face that? And maybe this relates a little bit to the sudden and gradual discussion, because the kind of classical description is you are working on removing the habits of greed, hate, and delusion. And maybe the way, even classically, maybe the way that actually has always played out is we have to experience them really fully and get very familiar with these habits.

[52:32]

But in the texts, they just... don't really talk about that, right? So, um, um, but I think that probably there wouldn't be anyone who would disagree that, like, if you're actually really working with anger to eventually get over it, we have to really study anger, and which means we can't, um, also part of the thing is we, if we, like, repress it, or, or, like, just push it aside, that's not really, like, letting it drop away, or that's not really purifying the obscuration, um, in the classic sense, we have to actually see what it is and therefore by experiencing it a lot with mindfulness and then seeing how it naturally drops away. But then the sudden and maybe bodhisattva path and maybe the non-duo traditions are also more like they emphasize It's less about you're eliminating anything and more like you're just seeing the true nature of everything.

[53:34]

So the true nature of anger is emptiness. So without eliminating it, you go right into exactly what is it really. And you're liberated in the midst of the anger by seeing the nature of the anger. The kind of five-path system doesn't really talk that way. The emphasis is more on... you're gradually, maybe over many, many, actually eons is what it said. It's not a one lifetime thing. Eons of kind of purification by actually studying the emptiness of the anger, but it's eventually the goal is kind of like that it's not even arising anymore. Whereas the sudden schools that don't take place over three eons, but they take place right now in the moment, it's like there's total freedom. in the midst of the anger by seeing the actual nature of the anger. You know, it's not like the gradual and the sudden like that don't have to be so black and white either.

[54:38]

I think there's elements of both in our practice. I also just think that we need to honor our obscurations. I mean, we have the tendency to, like, you're hindering me to, like, be totally liberated, so we hate them. You know, there's a certain kind of aversion to, like, something that makes our life complicated. But, like, to, like, for example, look at anger or any, like, greed or anything, you know, they mostly come from our insecurities, our fears, our doubts and our uncertainties. And to be, like, open to that, you know, to, like, really look where does it come from. Where do my afflictive emotions come from? And to honor that we just didn't know any better by getting angry, for example. To like, oh my gosh. And then also to honor the fact that once you're angry, the consequences are painful because anger has negative consequences.

[55:48]

And they say you best avoid it. So you learn by like, okay, this is hard. It is hard. It stays hot. They say anger, don't have it, don't do it, don't go for it. You know, it just ruins everything. And the same is greed and ignorance, but they're just more subtle, right? And greed, everybody wants us to be greedy so we can shop more, right? I mean, there are certain values in our common society, you know. It's kind of hard to get around. So... But to have the space, again, to come more into a secluded place, to see, well, what's my motivation behind my various patterns? And to honor that. And honor actually that as like, well, I really try to be enlightened, actually. I'm trying to be happy. And I'm just having these emotions that are just an habituated response.

[56:49]

And the interesting thing is in the philosophy classes, we shook our head about how the mute point it is in philosophy to ask why something happens. Because it started from beginningless times. That's a standard answer for you just don't know. Why there's delusion? Why there's delusion? Why do I have this anger? Why do I have this affliction? We don't know. It started before our birth, right? Here we might run into this thing about, like, karma and we can talk about it more again. But if you really want to throw in the cause and effect, you know, well, here we were, these infants adopting patterns. Or we had, like, a certain momentum from wherever. Yeah, I know. Also, I would add in about... really not just trying to push away an afflictive emotion like anger, but how to really work with it.

[57:58]

Classically, it's like we might say on this path of accumulation, the first of these five paths where we're really like gathering the provisions for the journey, I could say, and also classically as a practice to develop bodhicitta, one of them is like this confession and repentance. And the verse that we chant in Zen, all my ancient twisted karma, from beginning this greed, hate, and delusion, born through body, speech, and mind, I now fully avow, comes from the Avatamsaka Sutra, even that word. And they say that Bodhisattva trying to develop this compassionate vow is constantly doing this confession and repentance, or we could call avowal, which is just like... really like angers coming up and I'm not denying it. I'm really studying it. I'm really like acknowledging it. I'm not denying it. I'm really honest with myself. Um, is one of the classic practices. And that, you know, you could say that eventually is leading to it coming up less and less.

[59:04]

But, um, but that's a nice connection to what you're saying. I think that I want to add something to that, uh, just for all the Zen students here. Um, In my Zen training, I thought for the longest time, just follow the schedule and I'm going to be a great practitioner. You know, there's a certain sense of like, you go to every event and you do everything in the schedule and you sit, you know, and you do it and you don't move. And then by the end, I'm going to get the result, right? That was kind of my promise. I hoped. Cause and effect. Cause and effect. But then when it didn't show up, I was, like, actually really angry. I was, like, I squeezed myself into this bamboo tube. It was just painful. And the result was just, like, I turned into a bitch, you know? And then to, like, see, to, like, I actually, like, admire it. And I was so sorry to hear it so late. When Tentino, she said, actually, the schedule is there for you to see when you have resistance towards something. And you're actually not

[60:05]

supposed to do something you don't want to do. If you do something you don't want to do, you just harbor resentment, you know, because you should do what you want to do. And in fact, we always do what we want to do. And we should also honor it. For example, there is a certain thing of like, if you're at the Dharma talk, you're a good student because you're listening to Dharma. And if you're not and you're at the bath, you're not. But actually, it's what helps you in the moment to help your mind. So if in the moment a Dermatog would actually agitate you, you should not go to a Dermatog. If the path would like calm you down, you should go to the path. It's like the cause and effect, you know, and to be really upright with that is challenging because the crew pressure is so strong, you know, especially for us where we like individual and we like to have a lot of larger range than Japanese people. We like to have a certain creativity realm. And it's kind of hard in a system that came from Japan where people like to have smaller circles.

[61:08]

They don't have that. They like to follow the group more in Japan. And so I think that's still a conflict that we're going to work out in the next 200 years of Zen in America. but it's something to watch. And then sometimes if you're running into a practice committee or whatever to tell us, you know, you have to follow these rules like that, and we can't take your personal creative expression this way, then you just, okay, this is Buddhism right now, but we haven't gone and still have a conversation. And you're still part of this conversation with whatever you come up with. Like, basically, like, you wish I wanted to go to the bathhouse during Dharma talks could be a great conversation starter, in a way. Also, just to add, I think that's a great expression. And I think I'll always show her undermining the entire Tassahara. This is scary. But just one other little twist on that, because I agree with all of that.

[62:09]

And he said, don't do something that you don't want to do because you'll just harbor resentment. I think that's true. And then the other little twist is... there's maybe a way, like, I really don't want to, you know, go to the Dharma talk, I'm going to go to the bath, and otherwise I'll just harbor resentment. There is also the possibility sometimes of just like, but I can let that go. Actually, I think if I just go to the talk now, I really won't resent, I can really let it go and not resent it. And therefore, I think that's why you could say maybe that's the design and the function of having, like... The teachings like following the schedule and having the schedule is like sometimes we can shift it to just let go. But I think what you're saying is if we're not going to let go and we're just going to stew in the thing in order to follow the schedule, then that's kind of useless. Or like the thing of like, I really don't want it, but then I would actually need to leave. or whatever, you know, we would go, what you really want to do goes that far against what's going on here.

[63:15]

But then you can hold yourself of like, I'm not ready to leave, if that would be the case. But, you know, I'm going along until I'm ready. You know, I mean, there's a certain, this kind of self-negotiation that can go on in you, you know, in your conversation with your friends. But overall, it's like this total study of cause and effect. And your observation are part of the conversation. I was just going to say that maybe going to the talk, even when you think you really want to go to the baths, can also be an opportunity to not know. I didn't actually want to go to the talk last night. I'd just gotten here, and I was kind of resentful that there was no Zazen, to be honest. But I went to the talk rather than sat informally, and I'm glad I went to the talk. So... Sometimes we just don't know, really. If we don't have omniscience and can't clearly see what the cause and effect is or what the best thing to do is, sometimes it's good to just say, I'll go with what everyone's doing.

[64:19]

Yeah. And I really want to underline that because, especially for beginning students, there's so much about what to adopt and what to reject. Sometimes you give up your own choices and follow somebody else's advice, like your teacher. for a while and you're like really I'll give this a try you know I'm trusting this person knows a little more than I know so I'm going to try things out or and this whole thing about I don't know what's going on so here is somebody saying there's a talk so it's like whatever helps you to stay open basically yeah you had a question earlier I sort of did I'm not asking but it's taking us back to earlier part of the talk but you talked about this sort of maybe this natural rising compassion that people without knowing the Dharma might have this natural inclination to want to see all beings or certain beings be relieved from suffering. But in order for it to be bodhicitta, you sort of have to know the Dharma exists.

[65:21]

You have to know there's this possibility of this complete and other peace and unconditioned. Does it need to be possible for all beings in all times to infinity to achieve that in order for... right so what is the bodhicitta desire and aspirations relationship to the possibility of accomplishment of such an infinite goal i would say like do you have to believe it's possible for the aspiration to work you know offhand i would say yeah I would say yeah, because you know how it works. You might say, well, practically speaking, really, is everyone going to be free? Well, probably not, like within our lifetime. But if you understand the theory of what suffering is, how it works, suffering is basically a delusion. So that it really, therefore, is possible. This is talking about the basic core.

[66:21]

Suffering is not actually... What can I say? From this deeper perspective, almost like old age sickness and death are not actually inherently suffering. It's the grasping of an independent self. So you can die totally free, like the Buddha. And you can be sick in a totally free from suffering way. Once we understand that theory, then we see, oh, there is, theoretically, it's possible for all beings throughout time and space to be completely free from all suffering and be Buddhas themselves. And so if we see that's possible, then we can have that vow. If we kind of see like... Well, I'm not sure if that's really what suffering is. I'm not really clear on that there may be types of suffering that aren't delusion, that are inherent suffering or something like that. And then maybe we couldn't have the complete intention of bodhicitta.

[67:22]

It's almost like understanding what's... I think the key thing is understanding really deeply what suffering is in order for there to be devout and... to free all beings from it. There's a faith point too, isn't there? You have to have faith in the third of the Four Noble Truths. I think faith is important, but in Buddhism it's not blind faith. It's not just because it's in the Sutra. Like, that's the classic Kalama Sutta, right, as the Buddha says. Don't believe what the sutras say. Don't believe what I say, he says. Don't believe what any teachers say. You have to understand it yourself. And so, in that way, he's saying, maybe we need enough faith to study it deeply ourselves to get to the bottom of it.

[68:24]

But in the end, it is a, maybe I would use the word trust. Sometimes faith, trust, and confidence. are very similar, like the Chinese character for that term you could be translated in these three ways and maybe shraddha in Sanskrit too is like a trust as well as a faith so it's more like I trust it because I actually understand the principle it goes back to the same point I trust that it's possible because I understand how it works and maybe before we understand how it works we need faith to look deeper into it But that may be somewhat unique to Buddhism is that there's not like a kind of a blind faith just because I have some sense, some vague sense of it or because somebody said so. It's this kind of radical empiricism. We're like, have to really know for ourselves.

[69:30]

the room pierce's objections just flashed through my head as you were talking before you finished with your silence and um you know i'm thinking about uh the the three kinds of suffering that correspond to the three kinds of feelings uh-huh and if the the neutral feeling suffering that boils down really just to a suffering that arises from the simple fact of the condition yeah um that there's no there's no there's no a posteriori, empirical way of verifying that? I mean, the only way that you could... If it's necessary for you to genuinely have confidence, empirical confidence, that all beings in all realms and all times can be freed from an anxiety over being conditioned, how do you get there? I think we can verify it, actually. And it might be very hard because it's very subtle. But I think... It's not out of the question.

[70:32]

I think we can actually verify that in... Without faith. I think we need faith to motivate us to go that deeply into the meditation to ask the question. I think it's something that we can't just maybe check out in the moment. But I think in deeper... If we're really settled in Zazen and just... It's almost like I... I'm kind of thinking like... Offhand, like, that little, like, in the back of our mind, we're really settled. That little, it's almost like a doubt of, like, you see it? Or, like, do I, could, is this completely unshakable? Like, we can almost test ourselves when we're really, really settled in Zazia. There's not a problem in the world. I can't even imagine suffering arising right now. You can almost, like, check it out. Like, well, if, like, if somebody were to come in the room with a chainsaw and... put it to my throat, would it be totally okay with it? No, maybe not. For example. And then maybe we say, no, it actually is okay.

[71:36]

It's just going to go on and on. It's just dependent arising. Then maybe that's actually the end of this conditioned kind of suffering. That the freedom that doesn't depend on any particular condition is like the absence of chainsaws. which is also this great great premise that's lying in there is that there is rebirth but it's like all the dependent of how you like define rebirth right there's this whole notion about like is it a self is it a soul what's actually passing on what came in here and um And generally, I mean, like, we can look at what we have right now, our own life. It was a male sperm, it was a female egg, and it was consciousness coming together, making one being. And by the time, you know, got those two DNA strands going together, so like, have a certain momentum through the consciousness, consciousness momentum runs out, DNA strands are out, you're getting old and falling apart, you know, and then...

[72:42]

then is there still momentum going on? But if there's still momentum going on, it's probably going to appropriate another DNA strand somewhere. But also depending on what this consciousness attracts. Again, consciousness is lead. It's so lead. It's leading us. It's moment to moment. And this birth is happening moment to moment. Which karmic formation room is going to come up? And then our consciousness goes with it. So in this way, to like believe cause and effect. And it's not like, what we get into is like thinking of self as being a whole. And that's where we come into, you know, I don't know who and what is going to be reborn. And it's going to get really complicated. Why? Because we have this idea about a whole, the self as being a whole, as a life as being a whole thing. We think our life starts with, you know, our birth and ends with our death. That's what we capture and categorize things into boxes.

[73:45]

But that's very, it's a limited interpretation of it. Also about rebirth, I think one of the interesting areas to explore is like connection of mind and body. Because it's kind of saying there's an interdependent relationship between mind and body or all five skandhas, right? There's one form skanda, and then there's these mental skandhas, and they're all interdependent. You can't pull them apart, but these discussions kind of get into, at the moment of death, we know the form skanda does its own thing. It gets burned, it just caves into the ground, that part. But what happens with the other, the mental skandhas, or particularly the consciousness skanda? Yeah. This is where some people would argue. Can the consciousness skanda, which is usually linked with form skanda, can they, like, split apart and have their own streams of dependent co-arising? We can watch what happens with the body, but can there be a stream of consciousness which is not actually a self, right?

[74:54]

Because it's arising and ceasing, moment to moment. Consciousness ceases, and then that cessation is the condition for another moment of consciousness. This is how Buddhism would describe this. Then that has its lifespan of, like, a fraction of a moment, you know, and it ceases, and that cessation becomes the condition for another moment of consciousness. Can that, like, cause and effect stream of consciousness separate from the form skanda enough to, like, attach to a different form skanda, which we would call rebirth? And here, like, it's a beautiful... stepping stone I find in our conversation here because we are in materialist America if we were in India they were like of course my like Baba down the street is like going into like these mind states and meditative absorptions all the time you know they're like because according to Buddhism and that's like what's so beautiful about Buddhism it's not a set up

[76:00]

rule to follow to believe but it's like people sharing their experience and that's what they shared and what they some of these shared was like there are jhana states where you are and actually realms in this universe where consciousness is without a form these are called the formless realms in the buddhist cosmology they're like the form realms and the formless realms and these formless realms are be entered you enter them You don't have to have insight into emptiness in order to enter them. It's just you get really deeply absorbed. In fact, I had a friend of mine in Queen Gulch. She said she went there all the time. She just had some karmic formation going on. She kept dropping into these formless states, you know, where like there's nothing whatsoever, neither perception or non-perception. And that's what they say after they come out. Because once you're in there, you actually like, just once you come out, you say, I think this was just infinite space. Yeah. That's all I can say. And so, but these, what they call the formless realms.

[77:03]

Why they call it like that? Because it's like the experience. It's like the experience of your mind. Again, mind is lead. Mind is like the main driving force. And the mind experience is the one that's subtle and that forms, that wants to pick up language to describe what's going on. And to connect this to a little bit of the story of rebirth and consciousness without form and so on, to connect it back to bodhicitta is, if we start to open to that vision of like, that there can be, that this, we don't understand exactly how this consciousness works, but we want to train the consciousness into this vow, this deep, unshakable intention that can withstand switching bodies, not exactly switching bodies, right, because it's not, we don't want to get into it some entity, but we want to train this stream of cause and effect, called consciousness, to have this shape that it will take up the next birth with some momentum.

[78:18]

It's birthless and deathless, right? The appearance of birth in a new body. Like you don't buy into it anyway, you see? Well, the bodhisattva path might be many, many bodies, many, many lifetimes developing this compassion and the wisdom. The wisdom that understands this process and the compassion that we're going to keep coming back for everybody again and again. That bodhicitta is usually connected with this view of rebirth because we don't care how long it takes. We're just going to like... However long it takes, we're going to develop this as far as it will go for the most far-reaching benefit to all beings. And so if we don't have, if we're just like, just in this lifetime, it may be like, we might be feeling like, it's just not realistic that we're going to have, be a Buddha with infinite skillful means to help all beings in every possible way in this lifetime. We just, we don't have enough momentum. I feel like I don't have enough momentum so far.

[79:20]

It makes me think, maybe like, you know, maybe on one point it's actually that the mind stream can tackle our subtle experience so much, that it's comfortable with your subtle experiences so much, that it doesn't need to grasp for the label birth and the label death. And then you actually can write infinite lifetimes because it's just like, it's just another shift. You know, it's like... Okay, one moment, and it shifts, and now it shifts. And then, you know, and then some big, like shifts that we call big shifts, it's called death. Another big shift is called birth. But how many births and deaths have we already done in our lifetime? You know, we had so many lifetimes in this one lifetime. And to be able to be that subtle about it, And that the vow, this compassion, this is, like, really painful and, like, I'm really, I've really been appreciative of this body for so long.

[80:27]

Really, the body is about to disappear, about to disintegrate. But to have this vow being, like, I'm not getting overwhelmed by fear because, like, whatever happens next may be for the benefit of all beings. And then maybe the next birth is, like, we have some momentum going. It's a question. I wanted to backtrack a little bit and go back to, we were talking about the three types of bodhicitta, the kingly, the fairy, captain, the shepherd. And so that describes how we relate to others and what our role is in relationship in a way. And I'm wondering if you talk a little bit more about the actual act of like Bodhicitta in action and what it looks like to actually save all beings because I mean within this framework if we really look at the source of suffering it's not alleviating symptoms necessarily however in the teachings we also have things like

[81:42]

generosity, material generosity. So, yeah, I was just wondering if you could discuss that. Yeah, yeah. What's that? Okay. One thing that just came to mind is Dogen. Dogen goes a lot about Bodhicitta, actually. And one phrase, this is in Hotsubodai-shin, which is going to say it says, arousing Bodhicitta, Bodai-shin. Um... He says a lot of things, but one that relates to this, I thought, is the meaning of this aspiration for enlightenment is to endeavor without ceasing in body, speech, and mind to help all living beings to arouse the aspiration for enlightenment. So the aspiration is to wish that all beings arouse the same aspiration, which is like, whoa, that's not our usual way of thinking of helping, right? It's so, like, may they arouse the same aspiration.

[82:44]

And then he says, this leads them into the Buddha way, to provide sentient beings merely with worldly pleasure and benefit is not beneficial to them. So, Dovin's really radical there. And I think what he means is ultimately beneficial. So feeding the hungry and all these things are good, but the Bodhicitta here is saying, these things are not the ultimate benefit. really want them to kind of go beyond this whole view of what suffering is also and in fact he says arousing such aspiration and the practice realization of it goes far beyond the boundary of practice and realization delusion and enlightenment only bodhisattvas can understand this he says so but also the application as was mentioned earlier the classic thing of There's the aspiration bodhicitta and the application, putting it into effect, is again these six paramitas, which is like giving, continuously giving in material and spiritual and protective ways.

[83:53]

And ethical conduct means we're not harming others, and patience means what is the antidote to anger. And diligence is like, we're not getting lazy in this project. And concentration is, we have to stay really focused on this. And wisdom is like, let's not get stuck in any limited ideas about it. So that's the practice, which is, you know, would include feeding the poor, I think, and all these things, especially giving. But it's like a kind of, in a way, inner mind trainings. I'm coming from a different angle. One... thing I found pretty shaking to me was when I got introduced into the Tibetan traditional exercise for generating compassion. And the way I was instructed was you like visualize first your loved ones, your parents, your teachers, then somebody who is kind of a neutral person, somebody

[85:00]

Anybody you see on the street, you haven't talked about. And then people who have difficulties with this. And that's actually very traditional in the Pali. You know, you have these presets. And you visualize them walking on a slope, on a cliff edge. And they're blind. And they just don't know about the cliff edge. And you see them stumbling. You see them falling. You see them crashing into a deep... volcano, lava thing, and die and perish. And this kind of violent and gruesome depiction, if you really put yourself into it, it has an effect. And the effect is you cry. And it's part of the exercise. Actually, that's how we generate compassion, is We're really feeling the pain. Because what is compassion? It's like, it's a love.

[86:01]

You want somebody to be happy, but this person is in pain. And you really, you want to stay there. You want to be there with them. You want to like, don't turn away from the pain because then you would turn away from your loved one. And so the three types of bodhicitta maybe also be, also like our level of compassion, ability, you know, sometimes. Sometimes you're like, I stay with you, you know, this is painful, but I'm here with you and I really want you to be happy. And in fact, I'm helping you, you know, to see the enlightenment in this situation. That would be more the king-like one. And then the fairy one is like, no, it's painful for you. It's painful for me. Let's cry together, you know. And then the shepherd one would be like, please, you know, how can I support you you know I really have no answer to this you know but I really want you and I give you anything to help you even if it's a fall off the cliff myself and if it's falling off the cliff myself yeah so we are actually like hopefully a continuous conversation outside of here or we are so if that works out I don't know we are meeting tomorrow again

[87:25]

and day after tomorrow. And we wanted to go into some more questions and doubts, especially, like, having more discussions about what that means, like, you know, to do virtuous practices, because... Accumulations. Accumulations. Because, like, here we are in the one practice school. There was a time and a place in Japan for not only Dogen, but also other... Japanese founders of Buddhist schools who had had the insight to come up with a one-practice school and they emphasize one practice. Dogen emphasizes just sitting and then Nichiren emphasizes, you know, and so there's this development and had its time and place. But here we are like 800 years later. And Buddhism is just coming to America. And I think there's a value to just playing and trying things out, you know.

[88:26]

And so one thing that I found very enriching by personally cursing through Asia and in the Tibetan realm of Tibetan Buddhism, and actually like that helped you dig out a whole list that we have. We have some paper. I'm sorry, I forgot some. Anybody wants some of these copies and handouts that we're having about Bodhichitta, please see me. I'll bring them latest tomorrow, but you can ask me. But there's this list about very traditional Buddhist practices that are actually, once you know about them, you're like, oh my gosh, they're happening all over our temple. You know, prostrations, making offerings, you know, feeding the hungry ghosts, sorghambulation. Building stupid, building terrible. Dedicating marriage over chanting. Taking care of a temple garden, you know? Like, all of these traditional things are happening to some extent, and they can happen more. I mean, we can explore them, right? And so we wanted to offer a certain framework for you to explore it.

[89:28]

So I think it's right that we have this small room tomorrow and after tomorrow outside. Small retreat hall. Small retreat hall. And that's where also the classes are going to be. tomorrow and there tomorrow. Same time. 3.30. 3.30. Oh, 3.30. Okay. And there we wanted to build up an altar, which is basically a Buddha statue and a tanker of Bodhisattva of Compassion to give it like a big spot for it. So we don't know, haven't been there, we're going to look for it. And then we want to invite you to explore practicing around. that by, you know, doing offerings, doing whatever you feel drawn to. And in fact, we want to also put it out there to have the discussion with you that you don't want to do that. Because you actually want to know what is it that you wouldn't want to relate to a Buddha statue or to a tanga in, or how do you relate to it?

[90:30]

If you don't, how? That's a whole other topic in a way. It's a whole other topic. What is this relating to images? I mean the image is just a manifestation of it's like taking up so here we are in big mind and we're just raising a plate of grass and then we want to see how to relate to this plate of grass because that's the material we're working with and bodhicitta is like so like I said in the beginning is the effort of trying to come closest to to that big mind So anyhow, that's like an experiment. Might not happen. But it's in the air. Anyhow, and that's tomorrow. I think we're about time to create some more merit by rearranging the dining room and dedicate any merit arising from our discussion today, which is merit is like...

[91:32]

positive energy, or we could say it's the result of any virtuous practice. So discussing dharma together, trying to clarify it together, is a traditional virtuous practice, has benefit, and the result of the benefit is this term called merit. It's not some substance exactly, it's just the beneficial effects. We, through our intention, we dedicate, means we send it through our intention to all suffering beings everywhere, may they be able to somehow access the positive results of our discussion throughout all time and space in any possible way. Visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[92:34]

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