Good evening. Welcome. I want to sit for a few minutes with you and talk about Sekito Gi-san, Shito, his name in English, Stonehead. Welcome again.

[08:28]

So I have my glasses. I can't see much of anything. There you are. So I had been thinking that I would be going through the transmission of light, the names of the ancestors, kind of at a clip, and trying to get to Dogen and Suzuki Roshi, who are... you know, most of the juicy teachings that Zen students nowadays are hearing are from Dogen or from Suzuki Roshi. And a lot of these other teachers have not been featured quite as much. But then as I was going through the chapters, I came on to chapter 36, Shito. And I thought, oh, yeah, this doesn't make any sense to go ahead and certainly not to leave out Shito. So I thought I would talk about him probably for a couple of times. There's some wonderful, his teaching, his understanding, his, actually, his direct response to the splitting of the two schools, this southern school and northern school that happened during the Huinong, when Huinong was turned into the sixth ancestor, and that there was this kind of disturbance within Zan at that time, and people picking

[09:54]

picking ancestors and voting, you know, kind of voting others off the island and things. So Shito is actually addressing that in his poem that I will read to you in a little bit. So Shito in Japanese, most of the names that we chant at Zen Center are Japanese, having received them from Suzuki Roshi. Shito is his Chinese name, and he's the author of the Sandokai, which is translated in our chant books as the harmony of difference and equality. When I first came to Zen Center, I think it was the merging of difference and unity was the translation, and then they changed it, translators, to the harmony of difference and equality. So even though Shito is not in a direct line, his name doesn't show up in the same way as other familiar names do, He was greatly influential for one of his descendants, Tozan Ryokai, who is Tozan, Japanese, is the toe of Soto.

[11:06]

So Tozan is the founder of Sotozen in China. And as I say, he was greatly influenced by Shito, by Sekito Gisen, as was Dogen. And I will read to you a citation by Dogen in praise. of Shito as well. So this text, Sandokai, which I'm going to read to you in a few minutes, I've been told was Suzuki Roshi's favorite and that he really respected Shito. And I think there was something very down home and simple about that was very appealing to Suzuki Roshi, who apparently was also very down home and although not simple in terms of his intellect, he was very straightforward and kind of easy to understand. So this poem was written in the eighth century in China. And in the summer of 1970, Suzuki Roshi gave a total of 12 talks on the Sando Kai.

[12:15]

And from what I was reading, he had a chalkboard sitting next to him, and he would write out the Chinese characters and then explain them to the students who were there. And it apparently was in the middle of the summer. It was very hot. And he had a great enthusiasm for these talks. So people were there for a long time. And when they got up, their Zabatons were soaking wet. So it was part of the lore. of going to Tassahara and of Suzuki Rashi's stamina, because apparently he'd worked during the day moving rocks around. And then in the evening, he'd be giving these exuberant talks about the Sandokai. So a year and a half after delivering these lectures is when Suzuki Rashi died at the age of 67. So it's said that Soto Zen teachers often deliver lectures on the Sando Kai toward the ends of their lives. So I want to be careful. This is not a lecture. This is just a kind of mentioning of various things, just in case.

[13:16]

So as I said a few minutes ago, I'm going to share this poem with you. And if time allows this evening, I'm going to go over the story of Shito's own awakening in Kezon's transmission of light. It's a good story. They all are, but this is a good one too. And I also share with you the tribute to him by Dogen Zenji, which was written five centuries after Shito's death. So he had quite an impact on the Zen tradition. So given our recent discussions, which some of you were a part of attending, some of you may not, you may be new this evening to what's going on here. So I'll just say, as I was mentioning, that I've been going through the transmission of light sort of chapter by chapter, skipping a few. Transmission of Light is by Kezan Jokin, one of the descendants of Dogen Zenji. It's a wonderful book. I've always loved reading it. And it's all these Dharma transmission stories, like how each of these ancestors woke up in a conversation with their teachers.

[14:19]

And one thing I wanted to notice again, as I had been saying, that what's happening now in the Zen tradition, we've gone from, you know, including us, we've gone from reading the Heart Sutra and talking about that and talking about the Middle Way School and the Mind Only School and the Lankovatara Sutra and the Diamond Sutra and so on and so forth. So up till this time, the attention of the school is still on the sutras and on Shakyamuni Buddha. And what's happening now and what you'll hear probably, I mean, I sort of forgot to even notice. Now what we're hearing are conversations between teachers and their students. So it's gotten very current, very alive, very much about how is your, how is my understanding of reality? How am I doing? These stories are really efforts on the part of the teachers to bring their students alive in the present moment. So getting away from this kind of theoretical knowing or abstract knowing, intellectual like, you know, this kind of thing, this executive function that we will all rather pride ourselves on and beginning to come from the present moment, the presence of whatever's here right now.

[15:35]

So having discussed the platform with you a bit and this competition that was going on in the Zen sect for dominance in China, And the competition that was won, so to speak, by the sixth ancestor, or by his descendants, rather, attributing back retroactive attribution to someone who vaguely appeared as a historical character, but became a very big appearance as a result of this platform sutra that was written with him as the massive major teacher of the age. And then from that point on, having won this... basically a literary competition, the people who were promoting the Southern School and Huynong as the ancestor, from then on, that just became true. That's what was true. It was true when I came to Zen Center. I thought the sixth ancestor was Huynong. I didn't know there was any conversation about that at all. And same with all the other names. So all of these names have been carved out of history by those who benefit most from what the outcome is.

[16:46]

So those who had Huynong as their ancestor benefited most from promoting that idea. And when they won the day, their descendants then became this line that's been carved in and chanted and repeated. And now I've got it printed on this pieces of... beautiful paper that I pass on to people when I give them the Buddhist precepts. I give them this lineage that has all the names that have won through history of being the ones whose ancestry was considered valid or at least known. You know, their names carried. So we don't really know much about the actual people, but we know that certain teachings are embedded in their stories. And, you know, they're kind of vehicles. They're a little bit like, some people say tofu is kind of, the main thing about tofu is you can spice it with all kinds of things. So it's sort of like that. These names are basically spiced with all kinds of teachings that then are carried via these, you know, the name of so-and-so really represents a time when things were really changing and influences were being had and how to view and understand the Buddhist teaching.

[18:00]

And now it's through this Zen lens, you know, it's coming into this very particular focus of the Zen school. So I did find it useful to know that Shito's poem is, among other things, addressing the split between the Southern and Northern schools, as you'll hear when I read it to you. And he's saying that that was greatly exaggerated, poetically. He's not adding to the... the conflict he's just saying these kinds of exaggerations between northern and southern or between gradual awakening and sudden awakening are really not in keeping with zen itself not in keeping with buddha dharma and not in keeping with the experience of awakening where the world is not split into they're better than we are we are better than them you know that's we can feel that it's kind of like high school or something so later generations It was said that a monk remained ignorant unless they had visited both south of the lake to Master Shito or west of the river to Master Basho.

[19:08]

So each of these big teachers, big names, are better known maybe by us in their Japanese names. So there's Sekito, Gisen, that's who we're talking about now, and Matsu, horse master, who was said to have a tongue that was about a foot long. Anyway, he's one of the... progenitors of the, is that the right word? I think so, of the Rinzai Zen. So we have our two lines already. There's already these rivers are starting to flow off in slightly different directions. One toward the Soto Zen, toward Tozan, and the other from Matsu toward Linji or Rinzai. So you can start to see the growing, the kind of growing subtle differences are already beginning to show up. So from these two main teachers, Matsu and Sekito, all the what were called the five schools of Zen, or the five petals of Zen, developed from these, these major teachers, some of those schools died out, two of them that are still existing, and one of them I'm sitting here representing as best I can, Soto Zen, and the other Rinzai Zen, and many very fine Rinzai teachers around California, as a matter of fact, and some of them I enjoy.

[20:22]

reading their work very much and hearing about how they teach the Dharma. So in the spirit of Shito's poem, Shito sent his own students to study with Matsu and vice versa. So there's a story I want to share with you, it's not terribly long, about this very thing. And it kind of gives you maybe a flavor of what was going on in Zen in those days. And the monks were all traveling around. They mostly didn't settle for very long. They'd maybe spend a year or two with one teacher, and then they'd travel on, stay with another teacher, and absorb their approach to teaching. And little by little, some of them became teachers in their own right and settled down, had their own temples and so on. So this is also a little taste of Shito's teaching style as well. So this story is from the 8th century, and it involves... three Zen Adepts, two of them are already teachers, and then one of them is on his way to becoming a great teacher.

[21:23]

So the two that are already teachers is Matsu and Shito, and the one on his way is Yaku-san Igen, Yaoshan, Weiyama in Chinese. And Yaoshan later on becomes Sekito's successor and a very important teacher in his own right. So here's the story. Yakusan Igen visited Sekito and asked him, I understand the scriptural teachings of Buddhism, but I hear that in the South, Zen practitioners directly point to the human mind. They see their natures and become Buddhas. This is still not clear to me. I humbly ask you to explain it. Sekito says, well, this way won't do. And not this way won't do. And both this way and not this way won't do. How about you? Yakusan was dumbfounded. Sekito said to him, you should go see Matsu, Basho.

[22:28]

So Yakusan paid his respects to Basho and asked the same question. And Matsu said, sometimes I make him raise his eyebrows and blink. Sometimes I do not make him raise his eyebrows and blink. Raising eyebrows and blinking, sometimes raising eyebrows and blinking is all right. And sometimes raising the eyebrows and blinking is not all right. How about you? Hearing these words, Yaku-san was greatly awakened and he bowed. Matsuda said, what truth have you seen that makes you bow? Yakusan replied, When I was with Sekito, it was like a mosquito biting an iron ox. Basho said, Well, since you have realized the truth, you must guard it well. But still, your master is Sekito. Another exchange happens between Sekito and Yakusan, demonstrating a true meaning of a teacher with a student.

[23:30]

One day, seeing Yakusan sitting zazem, Sekito asked him, What are you doing here? Yakusan answered, I'm not doing anything at all. Sekito said, well, in that case, you are sitting idly. Yakusan said, if I were sitting idly, then I would be doing something. Sekito asked, you say you're not doing anything. What is this not doing? Yakusan replied, not even the 10,000 sages, no. Zen. We're way in it now. So these are these sort of puzzles, you know? It's like, just try to get a hold of it, you know? There's a saying of taking away a hungry man's food. But wait a minute. I'll keep reaching. I'll just keep reaching. So here, I want to read you this Sandokai. This is the poem by one of Suzuki Roshi's favorite.

[24:35]

Harmony of Difference and Equality. The mind of the great sage of India is intimately transmitted from west to east. While human faculties are sharp or dull, the way has no northern or southern ancestors. So here he's addressing the split. The spiritual source shines clear in the light. The branching streams flow on in the dark. Grasping at things is surely delusion. According the sameness is still not enlightenment. All the objects of the senses interact and yet do not. Interacting brings involvement, otherwise each keeps its place. Sights vary in quality and form. Sounds differ as pleasing or harsh. Refined and common speech come together in the dark. Clear and murky phrases are distinguished in the light.

[25:39]

The four elements return to their natures just as a child turns to its mother. Fire heats, wind moves, water wets, earth is solid. Eye and sight, ear and sound, nose and smell, tongue and taste. Thus with each and everything, depending on these roots, the leaves spread forth. Trunk and branches share the essence, revered and common, each has its speech. In the light there is darkness, but don't take it as darkness. and in the dark there is light, but don't see it as light. Light and dark oppose one another like the front and back foot in walking. Light and dark oppose one another like the front and back foot in walking. Each of the myriad things has its merit, expressed according to function and place. Phenomena exist, box and lid fit, principle responds, arrow points meet. Hearing the words, understand the meaning. Don't set up standards of your own.

[26:41]

If you don't understand the way right before you, how will you know the path as you walk? Progress is not a matter of far or near, but if you are confused, mountains and rivers block your way. I respectfully urge you who study the mystery, do not pass your days and nights in vain. So there it is. I remember, I mean, this is in our chant book, and we chant it every week. So, you know, I'm getting old now. I've been chanting these chants for many decades. And, you know, still I'm like, huh? What? Okay, okay, let me think about this for a minute. Or let me not think about this for a minute. Sometimes I raise my eyebrows and it's okay. Sometimes I raise my eyebrows and it's not okay. How about you? You know, how about me? So I really enjoy, you know, sitting with this material, knowing full well that there's not going to come a time when I get it.

[27:51]

You know, when I don't sort of, when it doesn't slip out of my hands, which I think is exactly what it's designed to do. Kind of, you know, just as soon as you get it, it kind of turns the other way, goes back the other way. And then you go forward again, and that goes back the other way. So there's this kind of approach avoidance situation going on with language, with words, and how we get turned around by words, you know. So easy. Hey, you. Yeah. So, yes. So maybe, well, let me look. Let me go to the story, Chapter 36. We have a bit of time, which is nice. Usually I run right up to the finish line. So this is the story, 36, about Shito and from the transmission of language. Oh, I wanted to mention one thing. Those 12 lectures that Suzuki Roshi gave on the Sandokai are in this book.

[28:52]

Ranching streams flow in the darkness. So it's wonderful. I've read it years before. I'm now reading it again. If we spend a little time on this poem, which I probably will do a couple of weeks, you might want to find, get a hold of a copy or look in the library if you have access and probably online and enjoy reading along. I think Jenny put the Sandokai in the chat. Did you do that, Jenny? I did. It's there, the PDF. Great, thank you. So any of you who'd like to have a copy of the poem that I just read, you're welcome to take it from there. So Shito, here's his enlightenment story. Shito called on Zen master Jingguan, Chinese name, who asked him, where have you come from?

[29:56]

And Shito said, from Chaochi, where Zen master Huynong taught. So he's saying he's coming from Huynong, six ancestors. Jingguan held up a whisk and said, is there this in Chaochi? Is there this? Is there this in Chaochi? And Chito said, not only not in Chaochi, not even in India. Jingguan said, you haven't been to India, have you? Shito said, well, if I had, it wouldn't be there. Jingguan said, well, that's not enough. Say more. Shito said, well, you too should say half, teacher. Don't rely entirely on me. I get the feeling he's kind of a little bit of a sassy guy. Anyway, don't rely on me. Shito says, I don't decline to speak to you, but I'm afraid that later on,

[30:58]

No one's going to get it. Shito said, well, it's not that they won't get it, but no one can say it. It's not that they won't get it. It's just that no one can say it. Kuan Yin then hits Shito with his whisk. Whereupon Shito experienced a great enlightenment. So, you know, all this abstract stuff that's going on in Shito said he's got a good understanding of the Dharma. He knows how to play. with the words. He knows the word play. But when it comes to showing up right there with his teacher and not kind of pulling off into, you know, little tricks like about India and all this kind of stuff. The teacher just keeps inviting him to come forward. Come here. Let me grab your nose, you know. A lot of nose turning that happens in Zen. They really want to get a hold of your nose if they possibly can. It's a little hard online, you know. It's one of the downsides. So Shito was well known for stopping animal sacrifices where he lived among the hunting people when he was a young boy.

[32:06]

And he went to see this Huenong when he was only 14. Although he wasn't ordained then, Huenong passed on and he was sent on to Tsingwan. Say again, yoshi in Japanese. So did have this exchange of holding up the whisk. Is this in Chalki? Chito says not only Chalki, but not even in India. So in ancient times, as well as recent times, they hold up the whisk to show a clue or to initiate an action to make people abandon sidetracks or to give people immediate direction. So action, one of the things I really have appreciated thinking about and noticing in Zen is how much of it is performative. You know, I've heard that about Rinzai, too. You don't just go in and give your answer to the koan. You act it. You become the dog that doesn't have Buddha nature. You become the whatever it is. You put out your hand.

[33:06]

You slap the teacher. You do all this kind of stuff. So you're enacting. You're not just theorizing or memorizing or whatever or memorializing something from the past. You're actually doing this thing. You're performing with this. audience of a teacher. And, you know, genuine, and apparently teachers can really tell when it's an authentic performance and when it's just, you know, not quite. You know, Paul was telling us during, we're doing this intensive right now. It's been just wonderful to be able to hear and work together with Paul and Gil Fronsdale. And Paul was saying that, you know, when he went to the Rinzai, temple in japan he would go in there you know you go in four times a day you for about less than 10 seconds so you go in and he said you wouldn't even sit down and the guy would ring the bell nope so so it's like this this total like building up the great doubt you know building up the great doubt you know just get back in there again just try it one more time kind of like a punch drunk

[34:16]

Boxer. Just get back in there. Go on. You can do it. And then Paul said, at some point, they give you another call. And he said, I couldn't tell if he thought I passed or if he forgot that I hadn't. So anyway, it sounded wonderful to me. I just thought, well, that sounds like great fun. It's not all fun because you're suffering. You really want to break out of your suffering. I mean, that's the reason you go there in the first place. You want to drop your, you know, your. Your conditioning and your self-centeredness and all the things that cause you pain. So you really want some help breaking out of your shell. And they are trying to help you. But part of this frustration is to kind of build up that tension or that energy. Come on, come on. You can do it. You can do it. You can do it. Do what? Nothing. Don't do anything. You're fine just the way you're. Yeah. Now you tell me. Anyway. Chiquan did this, held up the whisk as a test, but Chito didn't yet understand what Chiquan was calling this.

[35:21]

And still he had his eyes fixed on the raising of the whisk, saying, well, not only Chalki, not even India. So he's looking at this kind of story about the whisk, but he's not looking at the whisk that's about to hit him in the head. In the raising of the whisk, called Chalki or India... Can you establish, what can you establish? By such a view is still verbal understanding of the objective environment. So he's still making noise about the actual object that's there in front of his face, the whisk. Such a view is still just, oh yeah, I see that. So Chalki presses him saying, you haven't been to India, have you? So he's holding that whisk and you say, you haven't been to India, have you? Come on, young man, stay with me here. Shito still doesn't understand this remark. And without forgetting himself, he says, if I had, it would be there. So he's still got himself, tagging himself. I've been there. I would not have found it there either. So he's carrying himself as a concept.

[36:24]

Like, I'm the observer. If I'd been in India, I would have seen it wasn't there either. Just like I'm telling you, it's not here now. So he's still got this containment vessel of himself that he's carrying around. Even though you have spoken of it, if you don't know it exists, you are not suitable. Therefore, Ching Kwan said, that's not enough. Say more. He really acted with great kindness and compassion, giving detailed indications in this way. Here, Shito had no place to put himself. So he said, well, you too should say half. You know, he was stuck. Okay, teacher, you tell me the half. Don't count on me to do all the work for you. So having met and talked with us, if they both transmitted a half, how could the whole thing be said? Even if the universe crumbles and the whole essence is exposed alone, this is still only halfway. Even this point is arrived at on one's own without depending on the arts of another.

[37:25]

Needless to say, advancing a step beyond the halfway point, subtly conveying a secret message doesn't depend on anything at all. How can someone else know it for you? You know, how could the teacher give it to you? Even if you go a little past half, you still have to do the whole journey yourself until you're satisfied. Not the teacher. You know, the teacher is rooting for you and trying their best, but it's inviting the student to be whole, to come all the way over. It is simply that it has always been inherent in oneself. Therefore, Qin Guan said, I don't decline to say it to you, but I'm afraid that later on no one's going to get it. You know, you're not going to have descendants. But even if you speak of pain and bitterness, if the other has no experience of pain piercing their bones or a bitterness splitting their tongue, in the end, there is no way to convey it. Therefore, there will be no way to get it through words.

[38:26]

You can't talk about pain. You have to know it. You know, when we talk to others about pain, if we're just, you know, like, oh, that sounds terrible. And that's fine. But if you know it, if you've had a broken heart or broken bone or you've lived long enough, there's a lot of stuff, you know, you've embodied, you can deeply empathize. Oh, yeah, I know. I know exactly what you mean. You know, I got locked out in the snow one time. I know exactly what you mean. It's very cold. So because this is so, teachers do not speak at random and do not act arbitrarily. They're very careful in this way. But Chito still didn't know that there was a subtle point being conveyed, something that is not a partner of things. He's not setting up things and names of things. It's non-dual reality itself. There's no thing separate from the mind, separate from Shito or the teacher or the whisk.

[39:28]

It's all one reality, magically arising together. So unable to perceive, suddenly he said, Shito, it is not that they won't get it, but no one can say it. It's not that they won't get it, but no one can say it. So he's still trying. He's still holding up. Shito may say so, but upon reaching this realm, how come someone will have nothing to say? If you reach this realm, what will you get? He was still looking outside, estranged from inner realization, and therefore, in order to make him speedily realize such a thing exists, to get him to know his own original head, right on his own, right here, his own original head, Jingguan hit him in the head with his whisk. He beat the grass to frighten the snakes. Thus, Shito was greatly awakened. Come on, come on out, little snake.

[40:29]

Come on out and play. Come on out and, you know, be here with me. So by the way of this story, you should thoroughly examine learned knowledge and true realization. the difference between learned knowledge and true realization in order to arrive at the point where you can discern exactly which is which for yourself. Which of these is my learned knowledge, something that I learned, and which of it is right now fresh off the hot plate? I just made this right now. I don't know how it came, but here it comes. This is the thing that I'm producing right now on the spot. When Shito says not only not at Chalki, not even India, he succeeded in breaking open heaven and earth and revealing the whole unique being. But he still had the affliction of self-consciousness. It was because of this that he could speak so grandiosely. He was still kind of a big deal that knew a lot about the Dharma, you know, grandiose.

[41:35]

But in the end, having perceived the revealing of the whole being at the raising of the whisk, At the blow of the whisk, he knew that it exists. Oh, that's what I've been talking about. It's like this moment of intimacy right now, you know, with this teacher who loves me so much, you know, that he's willing to put up with me just over and over again, come back. So I think this is great. Great story. So Shito... When at the blow of the whisk, realize the fact of being, of existence, of this is it. You are alive right now. It's not some theory or some, you know, constructs or some property you own in Alaska. It's not that. It's right now that you live, that you breathe, that you speak, you know, from right now. And when he was hit by the risk, he realized the fact of being and both forgot himself and also knew himself for the first time.

[42:41]

He forgot the self, the learned one, and he knew himself, the present one, at the same time. Both are important. It's not like, okay, now let's just not know anything. It's like, no, it's really important to have that reservoir of confidence in the teaching. The teaching gives us confidence, I think. That's what someone I heard say. Oh, yeah, it gives me confidence. If something really has been valuable for so long to so many, you know, how about me? How about you? Yeah. So he came to life in the midst of death. In the dark, his true eye was illumined. This is the inner reality under the patchwork robe of the monk. The inner reality under the robes. So one little... piece of quotation from Asanga, who is our mind-only, one of our mind-only teachers that we've talked about in the past. He said that unlimited space allows for this place here.

[43:43]

The fact that space is unlimited allows there to be a place here. Unlimited universe allows there to be a self here. And without the unlimited universe... We couldn't be here. There'd be limits. Like, sorry, we don't have room for you. But unlimited universe allows us to be, to exist, the self to be. An unlimited duration allows time, like now. So it's within the context of unlimited space, time, and duration that we can be here now. That's our partner. That's our true partners, this unlimited. Limited and unlimited. are dancing. One in the dark, the other in the light, but always together. You know, there's no seam. That's called the seamless mind. There's no seam between big mind, Suzuki Rashi's big mind, and small mind, the person and big mind. They're all, they're like, you know, one, two sides of the same coin.

[44:44]

So... So I think I'll stop there and open the conversation to all of you. I'll finish Shito's story next week. And then also I'll be reading Branching Streams and more about merging of the harmony of sameness and difference and equality. Harmony of difference and equality. So please, whatever you all would like to discuss, I'd be very happy to hear. There you are. Hi, Kelly and Bill. Hi, Fu.

[45:52]

Thank you very much. Welcome. I was... I kind of grabbed on to that part about how the intellectual understanding and then the lived understanding. And I find that when I read all these materials, I've got so many books. In fact, there is one that I wanted to let... Weston know about. It's called Why Buddhism is True, and it kind of intersects the results of current psychological experiments with pretty much fortifying what Buddha's been saying. But when I read these stories and understand them intellectually, then I notice them in my own life.

[46:55]

not as often as I'd like, but I do catch myself doing something and then I say, oh, this is what I've been reading about and it's happening to me, so I need to clear this up or let it go or laugh at it or move on. It's really great. That's great. That's how it's supposed to be. In the Lotus Sutra, they talk about You first empty yourself of all the gunk that you've been storing. It's like go in the basement, get in the attic, get rid of some of that gunk. And the best way to do that, of course, is meditation. It's just allowing yourself to free flow. Let the flow of all that past karma kind of move up and move out. But at the same time, you're filling. So you empty and fill. So you're emptying out the gunk and you're filling with the Dharma. And that's the, I don't know if some of you have been in the intensive, but one of the lovely things that Gil said was that the translation of stream entry in the old sutras, entering the stream is, I think it's Kensho in Japanese, when you have this moment when you no longer are full of doubt and you're no longer you trying to figure it out, that kind of separation from you and the object of your, like the Dharma, like, I don't understand the Dharma.

[48:22]

So when that that breaks open, you enter into what he says, stream entry actually is translated in the old languages, the Pali, as the current, you enter the current of the river. And the current of the river is the teaching of the Dharma. So we're all in the river, splashing around, you know, that's where we live. But a lot of us are in eddies, and we're circling, this is samsara around and around and around, or we're stuck on a branch or whatever it is, but it's getting into the current. which is basically what you're talking about. You've brought enough of that, infused your own unconscious with enough of this work, these teachings that now they're popping up as they're supposed to. Like, whoa, where'd that come from? Well, you read it, you heard it, you brought it in. Those are your kids. You adopted that material for yourself and you don't know that it's there because we have so much stored, right? Our basement is chock full of, I was saying the other day, flute lessons.

[49:27]

And, you know, hand me a flute. How do I know how to play a flute? I don't know. But if you give me a flute, I can play a flute. Where am I storing that? Or where am I storing my little bit of Spanish or my Japanese? They're not there right now. But if someone said something to me, you know, like... In Japanese, a greeting, I could respond. How is it possible? Because of this, we talked about alaya. We have this storehouse consciousness, which is carried along from the past. It's our karmic conditioning. And that's what's showing up in the present. And then if you respond well to what shows up in the present, like, oh, that's the Dharma. Well, then you planted the Dharma seed of recognition for the future. It's a very simple mechanism. We are actually very simple mechanisms of past, present, and future, which are being created by what we do now. That's why the precepts are such a big thing.

[50:27]

That's why kindness and generosity and what you do now is going to show up next week and next year and so on. You know, I think just keep stuffing it in, Bill. It sounds like you are. I think that's fantastic. Thank you. I do a lot of that myself, a lot of stuffing. Thank you. Thank you. Hello, Drew in Vermont. You're muted. There you go. Am I on? Can you hear me? No, not working. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you are. I think it takes a second. The Vipassana Zen discussion.

[51:28]

A lot of Vipassana, they talk a lot about the defilements and the hindrances. And there's a lot about purification and going deeper and deeper into the defilements and hindrances. And none of the Zen stories are we talking about defiles or they're not talking about that, using that language. Like the Zen master, it's more, it's in the moment, but it seems more in the head. You're not quite, you're not getting it, but it's not like you're not getting it because you still have a lot of anger or, you know, you need to be, uh, work more on the defile. I'm just wondering maybe in their earlier training, they were dealing with the hindrances and they've gotten past that. Or where does that fit into the Zen tradition? Yeah. A sense of purification and our hotship. And, uh, yeah, that's such a good question.

[52:30]

That's part of what we've been exploring, you know, Gil, Gil's, Fransdell is a Vipassana teacher. He's also a Zen transmitted, Dharma transmitted teacher. So he's got both of those. And he also went to Stanford and got his doctorate. So he's got this big body. He's stuffed a lot of stuff in him. And he's a wonderful resource for all of those questions. And I'm really appreciating learning from him more about the Vipassana teaching. And one of the things he said that was helpful was that Vipassana is really done in retreats. It's practices that are done, you go on retreat, that they're not living monastically together. And so, you know, that would be like our sashims. You would do very intense settling and clarifying and watching the mind do its thing. And, you know, and I think a lot of us have worked with, I was taught to do shamatha. For many years, my teacher kept saying, you need to keep doing shamatha, keep calming your mind.

[53:34]

You got too much thought, too much heat. You know, I get really angry, like, oh, that's not fair. You know, I go get on a rant, start typing, type out my rants. So, you know, I to continue to for it takes a while to get off the horse of agitation and begin to just to walk. You know, just I changed my pace. I used to walk really fast. People say, would you slow down, you know, so I could stay with you. And I go, oh, sorry. So I actually walk really slowly now. And I can't believe how much nicer it is. But boy, it took a long time for me to choose a gear, a different gear. And I think it's true for thinking. I think it's true for actions in the world. We have to recondition ourselves from thinking. however we turned out as teenagers and begin to work on this reconditioning of our habits. So I think Vipassana is fantastic.

[54:35]

And I think actually my hope is that we will use these techniques, which are, they are techniques. And as I was asking my teachers, I said, well, what difference do the techniques make? And he said, it doesn't make any difference as long as there's a Bodhisattva vow. You can use any technique you like if the purpose of your endeavor is to awaken for the benefit of others. If it's not selfish, if it's not like, well, I'm going to get mine and then I'm sorry about you. So I think that's the emphasis in the Mahayana. I don't think that's an accusation that hits the earlier teachings at all. I think that's a mistake. I think the mistake is just that there was a need for this emphasis because In some cases, the monastics were kind of solipsistic. They were a little bit too much in their own space, right? I heard someone was telling me, well, yeah, I guess it was Gil who was saying that one of his fellow teachers, he asked him something like, well, what do you think about?

[55:40]

And the guy said, I don't think. And Gil said, whoa. So that's not Gil's thing, and that's not all of them. But every now and then you get a kind of an One of the apples in the barrel, you think, well, is that an outcome of this approach? Should that maybe be looked at a little bit in case we get too many of those kind of apples? And we think that that's not exactly what we had in mind. So we go through that, too, because you can get sick doing Zen. You can think you got it and sort of create a little shell called the Zen sickness. You can kind of flatline everything out there. It just becomes a problem. but not yours, your problem. So these are all well-known dangers that as practitioners, our best safety gap valve is to have a teacher who cares about you. And they're willing to say, you know, I think you're a little bit stuck in your head or whatever it might be.

[56:41]

I remember reading this book, uh, Something in the helping professions. What was it called? It's really good. Anyways, a therapist, a very famous psychotherapist who was saying that you can really get arrogant as a therapist because you have this kind of God-like position with your clients and you know everything. You're well-trained and yada, yada. And he said, so it's very not uncommon, as with Zen teachers as well, to fall from grace. And to kind of abuse your therapeutic gift. And so he said, you have to check in with other people. And he said, the people you need to check in with are your friends and your family members. Because they're going to say, you know what? I don't buy it. I just don't buy it. You are not this thing that you have, this suit that you put on. So this is a danger in all of these aspirations to be of great help.

[57:44]

of any of those helping professions that we have real friends that can say, no, I don't think so. You know, you're still human. You know, you still forgot to, you know, put your towels away or whatever. So anyway, I think that's part of the dance is not to leave your humanity behind. You're welcome. Hi, Melissa. Hi, Fu. How are you doing? Doing well. Thank you so much. Good. I'm glad to hear that. I wanted to actually just express appreciation for the intensive. It's been very meaningful and transformational for me.

[58:46]

There's been so much warmth and so much like a happy Sangha feeling. And I really enjoyed it. And Gil's knowledge and wisdom and Paul's knowledge and wisdom and your knowledge and wisdom coming together. It's been wonderful. And I, like Bill, kind of experienced a little bit of a... a moment of awakening, as it were, and the tiniest little streams that ebbs into the river that ebbs into the ocean, you know, all those little rivulets, but the tiniest little one a couple of days ago. And it's feels lovely. And so I just wanted to say thank you so much for the role that all of your teachings have brought to that. Thank you. Well, the stream is always exactly the same size as you. It's much easier once you're in the current.

[59:52]

Just get on your back now and then enjoy the ride. Wonderful. I'm so happy to hear that. Okay. Hi, Weston. Hello, Fu. Thanks for the lecture again. It's always enjoyable story time. I was wondering in like the current, you know, like what y'all are doing in San Francisco, how often do, is there like a, you know, like physical jolting of other people? I guess I'm curious. Cause like, I grew up. Would you like to come and find out? Yeah. They said, I said, I couldn't come to Green Gulch. It wasn't going to be open until September. So. Okay. Well, we'll wait. yeah right so i'm kind of just you know i'll chill over here but uh that's a real question you have right well i was i mean it's playful but also i'm kind of curious like there's a lot of stories and and i think part of it's a connection like with my history of like growing up in the rural area where people like if you've gone neurotic they'll just tackle you into the mud and then you're just like well yeah i just needed some dirt in my

[61:03]

You know, I was afraid of dirt or whatever it was. And I'm wondering, like, it's it's like you're totally against the norms, at least like right now I'm in Seattle. You'd probably get arrested. But like, you know, I grew up in a place where like someone may actually slap you and you may actually just like wake up from your neuroticism. You may be upset at them, too. It's a 50 50. It's kind of one of those gamble moves. Yeah, yeah. You have to be close friends. There's a lot of homegrown wisdom that I think we miss. Yeah. in our so called modern world, you know, I think those guys knew a lot about mental illness and how to take care of people. And, you know, I think there's so much in village, the village life village wisdom is totally missing. I mean, we just lost we've lost so many generations of knowledge about just about everything, cooking and child rearing. And anyway, it's, it's tragic. You know, so However, what were you saying about hitting and nose tweaking? Soto Zen is not known for hitting.

[62:05]

That's kind of not our thing. We're more like the dumb older brother. Rinzai are like the younger brother. He's a little more sparky. So, you know, we kind of talk it through, talk it out, take a walk. I was hit once. And it was a long time ago, and I totally know why. And I totally was amazed that, first of all, it happened. Did you just hit me? I mean, it was on the shoulder. I didn't have to – it wasn't any bruising or anything. But it was a good whack. And it just, like, my whole head went – like a sneeze you know i was going that's something i had no idea what it was and i got this great whack and that was it i bowed and i left the room oh thank god finally finally some zen so yeah every now and then i mean that's it you know in 40 years i got one so it's not real common

[63:23]

I've teased people a little bit, you know, but I'm pretty careful. I don't think I'll ever hit anybody unless they were really going to cause some harm to themselves. Actually, only twice in my daughter's life have I. I didn't hit her, but I spanked her. And the first time, she was about six, and she was screaming to get some candy, and I kept saying... You know, honey, no, no, no, honey. She wouldn't stop screaming. I said, well, I'm not driving home until you stop screaming. So I drove up to the top of Mount Tam and she's still screaming. And so I pulled over to the side of the road and said, we're not going home until you stop. So she opened the door and said, I'm going to jump. And I got out and I hit her in the butt and I said, you ever threatened to hurt yourself? Don't you ever do that? You know, I was fierce. And I wasn't kidding. She would do it.

[64:26]

Huh? I have no idea that she even said it. Don't you ever threaten to hurt yourself. And then when she was 15, she did something similar. She said, I'm going to kill myself or something like that. And I grabbed her and I hit her in the butt really hard and said, I told you. And that was it. Hasn't been any sign of it since. So that's that's what gets my ire up is if someone's going to hurt themselves or hurt someone else. You know, I think there's there's some intervention that. Anyway, you can at least try at Green Gulch sometime. I would take the opposite approach. With what? If what? I would take the opposite approach. We'll have to hang out sometime at Green Gulch. OK. All right. Definitely. I guess my view would be like if it was your honest choice, it's. it's not my place to stop you. And I think you're full of shit. Well, that's, that's country stuff. So yes, please. I'll be happy to have you.

[65:28]

You know, we got lots of people around here that need all kinds of hugs, all kinds of wisdom and all kinds of reactions. You know, mostly people say how, how much they appreciate being cared about. Yeah. That's the big magic. That's the juice. That's the juice. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully we'll get to be in person soon. Yeah, I hope so. You're all welcome. Yeah. Thank you, Weston. Okay, my dear assembly. It's a good time to stop. If you'd all like to unmute and say goodbye, you're welcome to do that. Thank you so much. Thank you. Bye, everybody. Thank you. See you later. Have a good evening. Bye. Bye, everyone. Bye, everyone.

[66:30]

Bye. Much love. Much love to you all. Thank you very much. Yeah. Yeah. Take care. Bye, guys. The party animals. I love that. I know. I thought you would. All right, dear ones. See you soon. Always good to see you. Wednesday. Huh? Wednesday. Yeah. Gosh almighty. This is just flying by. But it's been just delightful. I'm so glad. I've just loved every minute of it. It's nice to co-teach. I think we should do more of it. Yeah. Nice. Thank you. Thank you. Sounds like it was a great format. Yeah, I think so. I think it's been really good. Do it some more.

[67:32]

All right. See you soon. Thank you. You're welcome. Good night. Good night. Bye-bye.

[67:41]

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