Good morning, everyone. Thank you very much for coming to the Dharma Talk at Green Gulch Farm today. This morning's talk will be offered by Zenju Ursuline Manuel. Note before we begin, we have a live automatic transcript feature enabled, so you have the ability to show or hide subtitles. You can make that adjustment on your device whether you want to bring them off or on. We'll begin the Dharma talk this morning with the opening verse, which is in the chat window. So please feel free to join along with that opening chant. Thank you very much for coming. Thank you.

[03:15]

An unsurpassed, penetrating, and perfect Dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand million Kalpas. Having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept, I vow to taste the truth of the Tatakada's words. I just love all the chants. I hope you do. Good morning everyone from far and near. I want to thank the Green Gulch leadership for inviting me to speak I never take these moments for granted so I do appreciate being here and being invited and I want to start with reading a short piece from the shamanic bones of Zen I'd like to start with that

[04:37]

On the fourth day of silence, the world outside the walls no longer exists. I'm speechless. And it's not because there are no words on my tongue. There is a forest with 90 people surrounding me, animals in the wilderness. Their voices are no longer but there is a grunt or two. Some wander the forest stomping, some move quietly, some are flying. The cloth of our robes rustles, chanting is soothing when the mind goes places in the dark silence. And then I come upon this place as if longing, or lounging rather, on a bouncing branch.

[05:47]

I come upon this place as if lounging on a bouncing branch. I know that if I come into my mind, I will become afraid that that branch will snap. In the meantime, I'm a bird. What does it take to feel like a bird? And do I feel like one? You know, like how I see birds hanging on those branches way up on top of the trees. So today I want to talk about the act of Zazen, the ritual of Zazen, and to relate that to how we are living our lives today and how to live in this world that we're living in. Of course, I don't have answers. This is a response. This is an exploration that is always in my consciousness, in my foremind, in my heart.

[06:58]

And so I bring to you all of that. So Zazen, for those who may not have heard the term just in case, is sitting meditation, which is the core practice of Zen. So many of you here probably already know that. and you've heard it a thousand times but i wonder what it sounds like today um to you coming from my mouth you know what is zazen and and maybe pretending that you're not an expert on it and that you have no idea what it is pretending that even though i said it's sitting meditation even pretending you don't know what that is that you just landed on a new planet And they're talking about this thing called Zazen. And you're kind of interested and kind of not because it doesn't, you don't know how you could use it to survive the new planet. So you're probably more interested in, is there any water here?

[07:59]

Not, is there any meditation? Is there any water? So why Zazen? Why Zazen? Why sit still in the chaos? of the world? Why sit still? Why meditate? Why do zazen? So this quote was sent to me by a friend, not just to me, but personally, but I'm on a list. And this poem by Rumi sounded perfect to me. It came in my email this morning. It's one of the lovely kind of oasis among all other emails I received. I have lived on the lip of insanity, wanting to know reasons, knocking on a door. It opens. I've been knocking from the inside. I have lived on the lip of insanity, waiting to know reasons, knocking on a door.

[09:14]

It's crazy. It opens. He doesn't say his face. I have been knocking from the inside. How many have heard that one before? Okay, so maybe we can somehow get those words to you. It's one of my favorites. because it speaks so much to how the mind creates our experiences. So when Rumi's talking about opening the door, that's a great metaphor for the mind. You know, to open the mind. The door is the mind. And so, you know, we're constantly knocking on it, trying to figure things out, as he says. And... especially when we're on the lip of insanity, which I'm sure some of you are feeling some of that, I hope, these days, of how much chaos and difference and imbalances that we're having to navigate and wanting to know the reasons and knocking on the door, and then it opens.

[10:28]

I've been knocking from the inside. So the mind, knocking into my mind. So I have another beautiful poem that many of you probably have heard more of this one. It's a long poem and many monks for many years, monks and nuns over the years have memorized this and they say this, they chant it and they keep it on their hearts. And it's the Dhammapada. And I'm going to use the translation from Gail Fransdale, which is a very great translation. So how does sitting meditation open the door? That's the question, you know, right? How do we open the door? Dhammapada. All experience is preceded by mind. Or why even bother with zazen? Why bother in chaos? The Dhammapada says, all experience is preceded by mind. Led by mind. Made by mind.

[11:31]

Speak or act with a corrupted mind. And suffering follows. As the wagon wheel follows the hoof of the ox. All experience is preceded by mind. Led by mind. Made by mind. Speak or act with a peaceful mind. And happiness follows. Like never departing shadow. like a never departing shadow. So it's showing as without opening the mind and without understanding that mind, our experiences feel imposed. Our experiences are governed by how we perceive, how we think. And so if we're inside and we're knocking,

[12:34]

We're having this experience. I'm on the lip of insanity and I've been knocking and knocking on this door. And then finally it opens and you discover you are on the inside of that door. That you can unlock it and walk out. That is the beginning of what Zazen or meditation can offer. And not in a sense that it will happen to you necessarily, that you will open your mind. but you have a vow and aspirations towards that. And by having that vow and aspiration, you begin to see how you can contribute or be a part of a society that's constantly in chaos. And we can talk more, especially in Q and A, of how you might be the chaos. So I invite this question. It's an inquiry, really. So there's probably, Maybe not an answer.

[13:35]

I don't want you to jump to the answer. We're not in school and I'm not a professor. So this is an inquiry. And I feel that when you're practicing, the juice of a practice is the inquiry. You know, not who we find at the center, not the teacher, not the teachings. There is an inquiry. So when you approach the teachers and the teachings in the center, You have some ground coming in, even if you don't understand zazen. You don't understand the words coming out of the people's mouths on this strange planet, and there's no water. It's only fire, fire, fire, fire. So here's what I invite you. This is the inquiry I'm inviting you to have today. In what ways are you the chaos in the world? Now don't answer it, just hear it. In what ways are you the chaos in the world?

[14:38]

This is the question I'd like you to just hold as we go through and talk a little bit more about Zazen, sitting meditation, Zazen as a gateway, and Zazen as a portal to addressing chaos in the world, chaos in our lives. So... As often when I'm thinking about a talk, all of a sudden, very, very old things come to my mind. And I'm very, very old. So that's a lot of stuff that comes to my mind. I used to watch my father sit in his bedroom, sometimes alongside his bed or in the den or somewhere, you know, and he would always be staring out. And one time I said, you know, I'm going to ask him what he's doing, you know. And so I said, Dad, Daddy, what are you doing? I said, every time I come by here, you're just staring off into space. And I said, what are you doing?

[15:42]

And he said, I'm thinking about my entire life. And I was like, wow. And being that this man was born in 1898, in Opelousas, Louisiana, in the midst of a lot of chaos, a lot of lynching, a lot of trouble in the world, in his world. And I also want to see those details that I knew he could never, never tell. But he was feeling them, you know, not only the outside, but how he lived. He had like 20 brothers and sisters. I couldn't imagine. I would just get lost in that. 20 brothers and sisters. and this living as a sharecropper on a farm, being the first of black farmers in the country. And I just could imagine how wonderful maybe that movie was in his mind.

[16:47]

But, you know, being able to sit back and as I reflected on the zazen and the mind and Rumi's poem about you know, knocking from the inside made me think about the system of oppression or when you feel forced by society and you feel that way, forced to think of a particular way because of some oppressive human condition. So it kept bringing me back, bringing me back. It brought me back to 19 years old. which is a long way, a long ways back for me. But 19, 18, 19 were real important times in my life. So it brought me back to this old book. It's a book that startled me. The title startled me. And still today it does. It's like it just doesn't roll off my tongue.

[17:50]

And so it's called The Miseducation of the Negro by Carter G. Woodson. And it's written in 1933. And he, to me, is saying similarly what the Dhammapada says and similarly what Rumi is saying. He is talking about the mind and how one experiences life because of what is perceived in the mind. And I changed the gender pronouns in order to be inclusive, but if you get this quote or find it, it will have the language of the times. in it, especially you can see in the title, you know, miseducation of the Negro. Okay, this is the quote. If you can control a person's thinking, you do not have to worry about their action. When you determine what a person shall think, and that's the oppressive human conditioning,

[18:58]

you do not have to concern yourself about what they will do. If you make a person feel that they are inferior, and I add superior also for that matter, you do not have to compel them to accept an inferior or superior status for they will seek it themselves. If you can control a person's thinking, you do not have to worry about their action. When you determine what a person shall think in oppressive human conditioning, you do not have to concern yourself about what they will do. If you make a person feel that they are inferior, you do not have to compel them to accept an inferior status, for they will seek it themselves. And when I read that a long time ago at 19, it shook me.

[20:02]

It was like, oh, my God. It's my mind. Of course, there's the relative experience of oppression, but I had joined in with that thinking. My mind joined in with the oppressive conditionings that were being said and put and saw and read everything. And so my experience was an oppressive one. All experience is perceived by mind. Now that might not have worked if I had heard that at 19, but I heard the right quote for 19. That led me to see even today the same thing that the Dhammapada is saying and that Rumi brings through his poems. So this is an ancient poem. way of of knowing and so it's not me i'm i'm not that profound in that way it it's those who have held on these wisdom keepers have held on to these teachings and passed them down so that i can share them with you and hopefully do my best do my best at passing it on in the best way that i can

[21:26]

in a way that everyone can understand, or that most can understand. All experiences led by mine. You don't have to tell someone, you just have to have them believe they're inferior, and they will go, he says in his book of Woodson, they will automatically walk in the back door. They all will automatically sit in the back of the bus. This is his times. I think it's just very profound for myself to stop at 19 and to look at how the ways in which I was allowing my experience to be led by how I perceive things through my mind, which led to a lot of sadness and grief and depression and, of course, the big S, suffering, great suffering. So when we open the door to the chaos we create in the world, that's when we experience liberation, when we can open that door that we're knocking on.

[22:33]

That's liberation. And that's freedom. So it's not liberation in the Dharma. It's not liberation from something as much as it's liberation in opening one's mind. That's the liberation and freedom. It's not from something. You can't even track it. But if you're sitting zazen, sitting meditation, using that portal at the gateway with the breath, then you're headed that way. You're headed that way. So imagine yourself again. I love Rumi's poem. You're inside, you're knocking, you're going crazy, and you open the door, and you're in the inside of that. That's zazen. Oh, I'm on the inside of the chaos of the world. Now what? Now what? So how do you start to open the door? How do you begin this process of liberation and freedom? And I didn't know this way until I came to Zen practice.

[23:39]

Before that, I was in Nichiren, and I knew that way was through chanting. And even in chanting, and with that rhythm, I was able to see that door as well. I saw the door but for some reason I was not at that time able to unlock it because I still saw that someone was on the other side like leaning on it and or had pushed up a chair against it or a dresser or something you know so I couldn't I just couldn't come through I just had so many places I would blame [...] it was just my way of life because it can't be me so And then even when they were trying to teach me that it was not all of these things, it just did not resonate for me. Because I was like, oh, no, it's definitely a culture. And it is. It is. That's a relative truth. But that's not the only truth. That wasn't the only truth. Because if it was just the culture, then I was just going to suffer behind that door the rest of my life.

[24:44]

And I knew I didn't want to do that. I wanted to open my mind and I wanted the liberation of opening my mind and the liberation of opening the door. And I think this is key, very key, to some of the things we experience in the world today and the many isms that are around us. It's important to look this way. So some people get all focused here when we start talking about the mind, but zazen is in the body. Thousands in the body. So how many people have been using their strategy 40 years and they still kind of see same stuff going on, you know? So you realize very early on this strategy. Or you keep trying, you know, you keep trying. My mind's going to get it. I'm going to get it. I'm going to get it. And you keep going, shoot. You know, keep getting behind that door. Knock, knock, knock. So that's what I loved about Zazen. And I did see that it was a body practice when I first met a couple of practitioners.

[25:48]

And I didn't hear a word they were saying. They were talking. I didn't understand a thing. It was like being from the other planet. It's like, where's the water? You know, because I don't know what they're talking about. And I didn't know, but I watched how they were speaking. I watched how they went to their Zafu. How they... bowed how they turned how they set how they were breathing knowing i knew very well they couldn't be that relaxed because there's like 200 strange people in the room or maybe i was projecting my own shyness but it was interesting to watch i watched them and to this day i have no idea what they said but they led me to the zen center berkeley zen center first and then to San Francisco Center. And I thought that felt kind of strange, too, to go someplace I didn't understand. So to place this practice in the body, I wanted to share a little bit from my teacher's book, Zenke Blanche Hartman, and her book Seeds for a Boundless Life.

[27:00]

And this was a book that I compiled all of her teachings. which is the way that books were actually written, Dharma books. You didn't write your own books like Zenji. The students wrote the book of the teachings that they received from the teacher. And then that book goes forth. So beginner's mind, Zen mind, you know, that was written of all of Suzuki Roshi's teachings by student, right? Senior student. So I was not a senior student, but somehow I ended up with the project, and this project was happening at the same time that I was writing The Way of Tenderness, for those who know that book. So I had two books going at the same time, and I got very confused about what team I was working with, you know, from what, because there are two different publishers, and it was, you know, Wisdom and Shambhala. So they would call, and I'm going, Josh?

[28:04]

Jacob? I couldn't really, I could not figure it out. I said, this is getting crazy. Eventually, listening to all of Blanche's talks was the transmission that I received that was different from the transmission I received before doing the book. The transmission I received from her before doing the book was the joy of ceremony, the joy of Zen ceremony. I had no idea I had received that joy until way, way, way later. 18 years at Zen Center that I was all of a sudden excited about the ceremony, you know. So I thought, Seeds for a Boundless Life, Zen Teachings from the Heart. And Blanche talks a little bit about houses of the body. And I love the first three words. We sit down. We sit down.

[29:05]

We arrange our legs and robes, get our base arranged, a base for the transformation. And then we lift up through our spine all the way through the crown of our head. And you let your head be level. You don't want your chin up in the air. You want it level. You want to bring it back so that the weight of the head is resting on the spine. So it's the kind of motion. Your head staying level, but moving back. So that the weight is supported. And of course she gives Dogen Zenji, you know, his do for the Fugan Zazenji. Which is the instruction, excuse me. The Fugan Zazenji. The instructions for sitting zazen. Once you have your legs and your base arranged, so there's a position to enter this portal, right?

[30:13]

Once you have your legs and your base arranged, you can rock left and right and left. You take a little stretch, go backwards and forwards. And when you do this, you start to straighten up. Your body starts to straighten up. It starts to open up. so that you can breathe while you're on that door knocking, knock, [...] let me out. So you can get to a different body situation that your whole muscular system, your skeleton is ready. Your body is ready to receive. Then you arrange your mudra. She goes on with a lot. Your mudra should be sitting zazen too. Your mudra should be sitting zazen too. Your toes are sitting zazen. Your ears are sitting zazen. All of you is sitting zazen. And it's okay to rest your wrist on your thighs in the mudra. But it wants to be nice and open.

[31:16]

It doesn't want to collapse and close. I like the way she makes the mudra live. I think of the mudra. This is the sentence I love. I think of the mudra as a kind of receiver. You can visualize your out-breath as falling down like a waterfall and your in-breath as coming in through your mudra, hand and finger position and filling you up. So Zazan is a receiver. You come to the new planet and you have a receiver. a way to receive what you don't understand, what you don't know, what you're about to discover about everything, especially yourself, your mind, the mind that's creating the experiences of suffering that you have, that walks with you every day.

[32:18]

And so oftentimes we do talk about zazen in the body. as just a posture, but it's not posture maybe like your physical education teacher taught you in junior high, which I remember that very plainly, that whole discovering I don't have good posture. Your shoulders are round, you got an S in your back, it's just on and on. I'm like, I don't know what to do about all that, really. And I didn't think there was even possible to change my actual body. And because I was like, this is the way I was born. This is how I am. And, you know, that S in the back, you know, that's just African. You know, I was going on. I have so many reasons of not to pay attention to this posture that the teacher is trying to teach me. And now many, many, many, many years later,

[33:24]

When I go to my fitness instructor, she always comments every time, you have such good posture. And I was like, it's always a shock because I didn't write, first of all. And I said, oh, that must be the Zen practice. And I could feel as soon as she says it, I get a sense of my body and what I'm doing and where I'm sitting and how I'm sitting. And I go, oh. And it was important to her because if I already had the good posture that she can give me the teachings that she has to help me with my body. I was ready for those teachings. And so this is what Zazen helps to do. I was ready to breathe and open my body to breathe, keep my chin ready to breathe, to take it all in. And these are the exact same things that we're doing when we sit zazen.

[34:27]

We're receiving through our mudra the trouble of the world. We are. We're receiving the joy of the world. We are seeing the world. We're seeing our life. We have an antenna. We have a portal, whatever word you want to use. To begin to understand. the mind not only the mind of the individuals but the mind of the collective begin to understand the mind of the collective as well now do you run you know do does that mean you don't have to change anything or engage in changing these things not so we still engage the world but it's how you engage it and from where you engage it do you engage it from I'll hear from an external place from, you know, viewing the other.

[35:27]

We talked about a lot of that in our sangha, viewing the other and seeing the difference and having contempt with the other rather than any love or value for the other's life. So you'll understand that in Zanzen. You'll breathe it in, not understand it here. It has to be in your body. If you are, you know, sending Zazen, kind of like you're doing when you do TV, not much is going to come in there. Not much breathing. Or the breathing you have puts you to sleep. Because you're used to laying up on the sofa or in your bed relaxing. And so you don't have an alertness to even receive all that's going on. And we all need to be strong enough. And whatever it is we're doing, it doesn't have to be Zen. I don't sell Zen. That you have to be strong enough in whatever you're doing to receive all that's going on from individuals and from the collective.

[36:31]

Because it's really all together, right? We talk about that in our minds, that we know that's all together. It's all integral. We get it. But we don't. It's hard for us to enact it in our lives. And then after that, eventually Zen, Zazen, teachers, students, centers don't become these things. They become these places of that liberation from being behind that door knocking and you're on the inside. They become those locations for that. So you don't have to think it up unless you want to. I'm not going to stop you from creating any type of traditions that you would like to do. That's not what I'm here for. But I can share with you that I'm grateful that I didn't have to figure it out, that I didn't have to create something entirely new. Not that my own wisdom has not come and has given me some insight.

[37:40]

then maybe the insight's different than what other people may have. Like Buddha was a shaman. I got a little trouble with that one at first from a teacher. He said, oh, no, no, don't write that. That was way back. Not even the shamanic bones of Zen hadn't been written. This was in Tell Me Something About Buddhism. And I said, yeah, well, he was on a vision quest. I was going on and on. So, of course, that wasn't working. It's getting worse, getting worse. And I said, you know, what I'll do is add a disclaimer and say, some people might perceive of the Buddha as having been on a vision quest. You know, this is the crafting of writing. You really got to be careful. So I did that. And then, but Buddha was a shaman. So the teacher came back. You still said Buddha was a shaman. I said, yeah, but I put a disclaimer. So Buddha was a shaman. So my book, I think I have a whole chapter on Buddha being a shaman. So I don't think it went away for me. So it doesn't mean that you have to hold on to that at all.

[38:44]

It's just a way in. It came through my antenna, my portal of sitting. My experience in ritual and ceremony in Zen. And I trust it. I trust that. And I am in conversation with senior teachers all the time. Not so I can get approval because maybe I don't agree with the senior teacher either, but to have that discussion and the conversation so that I can go back and sit with it and see how clean is my portal? How clear is it? You know, am I really seeing through it or I'm attracted by the rainbows of the crystal or something, you know, really looking at it, clearly looking in. And so I was spending time talking about Zazen and talking about the practice because this is the place in which the liberation and freedom that we look for and we explore, I believe, is in the practice of Buddhism.

[39:55]

It has been for me and in Zen particularly. So oftentimes when we begin to deal with problems in the world, the first thing we do is drop off the practice, the Zen. Zen can't help anything right now. This is really crazy, all the things going on in the world. Forget it. We do go there. I'm going to run in here and sit down because too much is happening, so it's the opposite end. I'm just going to sit down and see if I can forget about all of it. inviting you to polish your meditation, your zazen, and to make your mudra that antenna, to make things, to be able to allow all that's going on in the world to come through, to come through, not stick with you, come through, come through, come through, until wisdom arises, until you realize, aha, I'm knocking from the inside, oh,

[41:04]

they're knocking from the inside oh their experience is because of how their mind how they perceive what they perceive in the mind i'm i'm understanding that now i don't have to go out and teach it like i want to have a talk with you about your mind and why you're experiencing this you know it's not meant for that a lot of people like to use the teachings to teach others and um it's not meant for that you know It's meant for you. And if and when, if and when your door opens, your mind opens, open mind, if and when your oppressive human conditions, you see whether or not they make you feel inferior or superior, like Woodson said, when you see these things, you know, that's when the, Practice will come alive and comes alive, blooms like a tree.

[42:09]

So I invite that. What's that question? What's our inquiry? What is the inquiry? In what ways are you the chaos in the world? Just for a moment, I have some friends would never consider that. Oh, no way. I'm not. All that's happening, I have nothing to do with it. Doesn't matter, cross gender, cross race, doesn't matter who. I have heard this from many people. And I understand it because when I first started, like I said, I was blaming. And I was like, well, it's not me, it's them. Don't you understand? To the teachers, don't you understand what's wrong with you? I'm trying to explain to you, it's them, not me. Until they spoke no more. Because I wasn't capable. I didn't have the capacity. I didn't have an antenna. As much as I was chanting, I had nothing.

[43:15]

Nothing clear enough. No body posture. No breath. To receive anything. Are you ready to do a practice? Are you ready to have a teacher? Are you ready just to be with yourself? Forget about all that. So I'm hoping what I share today, just checking around next year, I haven't left out any quotes or quotes I want to share with you, but I'm hoping that some of what I said today gives you, I'm not here to necessarily stimulate you or give you anything cathartic so that it's gone by Monday. But to just open your mind, helping you open that door because we can open it together. You don't have to be by yourself on the other side of that door if you're willing.

[44:17]

Sometimes we just want to do it ourselves. But I can do this. We're pretty strong. We're pretty smart. I don't know of anybody who isn't smart. I've never not really met somebody who's not smart. Because what is smart? So I'm going to, at this time, open the circle. I persist. This is a circle instead of a lot of squares. And if there are any questions, oh, no, before question and answer, We do the closing chant, okay. Is this correct? Closing chant. Okay. It's in the chat window now for people to follow along. May our intention equally extend to every being and place.

[45:24]

With the true merit of Buddha's way, Shujo muhen se gandho, Bona mujin se gandhan, Hama miryo se gandhan, Things are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Q&A let's have hands raised I guess would probably be the best so I could see you because you'll come up to the top of the screen we'll do this for about 30 minutes

[46:54]

Terri. Oh, let's see, Green Goat Song. Okay, Terri, then Green Goat Song and Green Goat Song. Okay, Terri. Earthland, I just want to thank you so much for, it was moving and also delightful. your presentation and it brought me to I had an experience last night at a I experienced being the insensitive white person I realized afterwards and during your I couldn't help but I've been thinking all the time, what should I do?

[48:33]

And then during your talk, I decided I'm just going to write a letter to the person. So I just want to thank you for that, for opening my mind to how to move through this situation. which I have no idea how it affected the other person, but it had a big effect on me. Yeah. And I would like to just invite you to look at your effect, the effect on you. Yes. And to understand your experience, you know, take a pause as long as you can to not try to take care of it in any way, fix it, change it, but to sit with it as it is and to see how how that experience was created by how you perceive it. And I did hear an adjective in there about your insensitivity and to explore that too, to find out what that is about and where it comes from and how you can work with that yourself through your practices as if you can heighten and increase your antenna and see what will come through you

[49:52]

rather than just use the incident as information. And so it's not always necessary that we go from event to event to event. And I can tell you as a person of color, I would be dead if I tried to take care of every act of, you know, that. came since I was a kid, you know, since I discovered, oh, my God, you know, this is a problem. You know, I was like four. So I would definitely be dead. I've been dead by 15, probably, if I would take care of all the incidents that have happened to me. And this is why I came into the practice of Buddhism, because I could see this was a way of also affecting and contributing to the world from a place of spirituality and Dharma. And I still do that. You know, I feel well equipped with the teachings and it's not my work to go out and do that work. I'm not a diversity trainer.

[50:53]

I don't do any kinds of circles on race or anything like that. I am a Dharma teacher and I really walk that way and through that way of spirituality. I strongly believe in it because it's worked. It's not a blind faith. It has been something that has worked, and I think it has been something that I share with people. When I say I teach, I really share my experiences of how I got to a certain place in my life. Because a lot of people say, oh, you feel freedom. How can you feel freedom in the middle of, you know, internalized oppression or in a place that, you know, where folks aren't like you, you know. And it's a good question, you know, that people ask all the time. But there has to be an understanding of spirit, spirituality, ritual, and ceremony before they even understand what I have experienced and what I have been through in order to be in such a place, which is to be in the world.

[51:53]

It doesn't matter where I am. It's just to be in the world. I could be on a plane and it could happen. So I don't have to be at a Zen center. So I just invite you to live in that way, to live in that way that it's just coming through you, not an action you have to take. Every time something happens, it's just a quick response. So you can take it, leave it, take it, leave it, yeah. Helpful, helpful, very helpful. Okay, now there's a person, thank you, Terri, in the Green Gulch Sangha. There's a hand raised there. Hello, can you hear me okay? Yes. Um, first to comment, uh, speaking of chaos, I love that, um, we use a different sort of slightly different chant than what you had chanted.

[52:56]

And for a moment, it's like, I felt like confusion in the air because that what you were saying was different than what we saw. Um, I just loved it. It kind of felt joy in that momentary chaos there. And the burning question I had is, how would you define mind? At least in terms of, is it sort of just perception of all that's going on inside and outside and our body perceives it, thoughts, belief, like, I'm curious what... what your perspective on that is. Yes. I love the use of heart-mind, heart-mind, which is, you know, you may know yourself, right?

[53:57]

That in calligraphy, the kanji for heart and mind are the same. And so shin, s-h-i-n i i love that it means all of it so it's very different from a very fragmented fragmented western thinking around mind and um and so when i um speak of mind i'm speaking of a homeless and expansiveness um that that definitely includes thoughts you know so a lot of what i talked about leaned toward thoughts But it really also, those thoughts sometimes come from our feelings and emotions, which is our heart. So those thoughts, you know, I'm angry. Well, you just don't jump up and be angry. It kind of comes from someplace, you know, some emotion, which is some place in the past, some reminiscing of something old coming up in your life.

[55:00]

And so I... I don't spend much time in definition. And I think it makes it really difficult when you're a writer and you're trying to drive, you know, some type of, you know, point across and there's no definitions. My entire book on the deepest peace, I really fought, fought, fought not to define it. If you ever read it, there's really no true definition of peace in that book. And I did that on purpose. So I often ask people if you have the question to explore where mind, where is mind? You know, to explore that for yourself and to find out what it includes. And is there any place, anything or any place that is excluded from it to just make that a practice, you know, as you, you know, you're sitting there. in zazen or walking in zazen or doing work practice or any of those things that are provided as portals to tweak that antenna, that mudra you sit with in the zendo.

[56:11]

I hope that's helpful. Thank you. It's a good question. I want to add one more thing. They are studying the mind a lot, you know, around meditation and They're just discovering what we already know. So that's just to let you know that we already know. That's what science does. It kind of affirms the spirit. And so we need that. We need that sometimes to know that, to keep doing it. So that's okay to me. I'm not against it. All right. Okay. Okay. Good morning. Osho, good morning, everyone. It's more of a comment that I have. And thank you for the information on the mudra. Because sometimes when I'm sitting, I often find that my thumbs are open, like I drop the thumbs.

[57:18]

And so to have the visual that... the mudra is an antenna. It's just, I'm just like, wow, this is amazing to me. And the chaos, you know, how am I part of the chaos? It's an interesting question because... Not how you're part of it. I'm stopping her. She's one of my students. In what ways are you the chaos? Oh. Can you take that on? Yeah. Are you not part of it? We're not doing that. We know that. Okay. Well, I will sit back on that one and think about that one a little bit, but it's good to see everyone. All right. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Linda. Linda Gonzalez, good to see you. Good to see you and to hear your wise and wonderful words. So thank you so much for everything. And speaking of the chaos, you know, it's interesting because I'm curious about, as you say, the definition and non-definition of things, because over the years, chaos has actually, for me, been a very generative, curious, natural,

[58:39]

thing that the universe does. And so when I think about chaos, I also think about the generative things and that chaos also requires a certain loss or change or destruction. As you say, you know, to open the door from the inside, like there is that. So I just would love to hear some of your thoughts around like the chaos as also that place of growth and possibility. Yeah, yes, yes. Okay, I have another book coming out. Sorry, I'm not selling my books. But I do have a book called Opening to Darkness coming out in March 2023. And I do talk about the struggling and the darkness and opening to it. Again, again, opening that mind to it to not decide what it's going to give you what is the darkness going to give you what is the chaos going to give you because you may not grow you may not even be shattered by it you just in it you may be lost in it you know but to open to it and see what it does uh to your life what it does to the people around you in your life um chaos um

[59:55]

I believe, too, it's not always very random. It's not as random as we think it is, that there's always signs that the chaos is coming. It might be two decades ahead, another decade, and boom, there we are. And we're like, oh, wow, and we already have known, you know, somewhere, right, deep psyche, that something's coming. And so it's to know that it's not completely random, that it's on purpose. Like you say, maybe to destroy what needs to be destroyed so that we can build what needs to be built, what needs to be created and how we can, in living together on the planet or whatever, if the planet disappears. living together wherever we're going. I don't know if we're going anywhere. So we don't know any of these things. But it's a great question. And I do believe that disruption opens up things.

[60:57]

Sometimes when I'm suffering the most, you know, I know what's going to open is so beyond me, you know, beyond my imagination that it's scary. to me, but I know something larger. This has been my life. I've had big, gigantic falling off the cliff things, you know, and, and so now when these things happen, I go, oh my God, I wonder what my life is going to be, you know, but I know, so there's, there's a excitement in it, even that, and there's a loss, but, um, at the same time, I'm willing to open into, and to go through the portal that I cannot stop anyway. Mostly, I can't stop them. It just happens. And then there it is. Time to do this. There's been signs all along. And here we are. So I think, you know, in some ways, I like chaos and disruptions. When things fall apart, I love in the Zen Center when things fall apart.

[62:00]

Somebody's lost their pace. They don't know where they look. They rung the wrong bell. Oh, just like... The Diamond Brothers said, you know, I'm chanting one thing, you're looking at another, you know, so there was never a transfer between. I love that. I love that. And then to seeing what you do with that, you know, because you get to see nothing is always the way you want it to be or think it should be. It's always that experience. And so that's why, like, I do in some way enjoy chaos in that way and the suffering and darkness. I'm open to it. I'm open to it because it's going to do something. I'm open to the darkness we're going through in the world, not just our society. Thank you, Linda. Okay. We're at time. Okay. Mark. Many greetings from Germany.

[63:03]

Sorry for the the lack of light. I want to greet you all here. I really resonated with your words today, also coming from a place with a lot of experience in darkness. And so I can really also relate to your words. I think everyone is the chaos because they can't hide away from their role in the world because just anything they do will have an effect. Even if they decide to sit down, if they decide to stay in their room, if they decide to... follow a thought or ignore a thought that will always have an effect and contribute to the development of what is currently going on.

[64:11]

And yeah, I just wanted to say that, yeah, other people are also listening from other countries. And I wonder if you have any for the practice itself. So in terms of monitoring your own thoughts and your own delusions so that you can really grow from your everyday practice. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Mark. Yeah, I, my... my I guess words would be around practice is don't monitor your thoughts because but look at them acknowledge them and recognize them but monitoring them is to me somehow getting in the way of how

[65:19]

uh that will dull your antenna because you're using your head and you got this antenna here but you're not really using it you just kind of have it slung over your shoulder and hanging out but your head's trying to do the you know the beams are coming out your head so when you're monitoring you know you're kind of watching oh i shouldn't do that oh i did that oh i shouldn't do that oh i did that and you're going to you're a human being you're a human being you're going to do all kinds of things and because we're all conditioned from so many places but it's being able to recognize it recognize that when you're on the other side of that door you know rather than just kind of you know going by you know somebody's out there around somebody's out there open the door open the door that's that's kind of oh I oh my god I thought I was you know I thought I didn't know I was inside here you know whatever you know so really trying to not manage not monitor but to sit zazen and allow your mudra to touch your toes. You know, sit, let your toes sit, like Blanche Hartman said, let your toes sit and let it arise from someplace you may not recognize.

[66:30]

Let it arise in you. It doesn't have to be everything, your whole life. You know, like, okay, I got it all. And I think it was Pema or maybe some other teachers too, Pema Shodron, that said if we were to, and I was sharing this recently, awaken to everything that we're supposed to be awakened to in an instant, we probably couldn't be handling it. It probably would just kill us, you know, obliterate us or something. We're not able to handle all of that, you know, that's given. But we can, you know, allow what is to come in, let the mudra be the receiver, And I want to make sure that you know that comes from Blanche Hartman, not my idea, you know, to let your mujo become the receiver and to be patient enough and gracious enough and kind enough to allow yourself to come to whenever, when it's your time. It may not be this lifetime for you. If there's another one, I don't know. But you have to wait and all the things you think you want and you can't control and all that, you let it go.

[67:35]

You know, so we're not here to be perfect and to become some kind of special people because we walk in meditation and we sit meditation. We're not working to become perfect. We're working to understand the imperfection. And so that we don't cause ourselves suffering and others suffering. We begin to understand it like... The other Dharma sister, she noticed something. That's what we want. And so, yeah. You understand? Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. Okay. Focusing on the imperfections, not the... It's not about becoming a perfect idol. Not focusing at all. No focusing. No managing, no focusing, no monitoring. No work. No work. Just sit down. Remember those first words? We sit down.

[68:36]

Because we're too smart, right? We're just really smart. We can figure it out. Why go to practice? Why go to a Zen Center? I can figure this all out. And then you look back and you go, well, maybe not. So allow something else to lead your life. Allow it. Something other than this moving brain. Thank you. Okay. I think this might be the last one. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you so much. So your question, how am I contributing to the chaos? What ways are you the chaos in the world? Now, you're not a student, but I know you're a practitioner. So, yes, what ways are you?

[69:41]

What ways are you the chaos? Not your part in the chaos. Right, right. What ways are you the chaos? You are the chaos. The chaos. And the question is. Actually, for some reason, the question, I just wanted to hear it again. Hmm. And let it resonate. Yeah. It's one of those things you live with. You not really can't answer. I was just inviting it to open. It's one of those questions like Ramana Maharshi says, you know, who am I? And everybody goes running around trying to figure it out. But that's not why the question, the inquiry is there. The inquiry is so that you just, who am I? And then this big space just happens blank. Right. That's it. That's all. And you keep asking that question and it's just blank. Right. It's kind of like reminds me of my process of going from lay to priest to Dharma transmission.

[70:44]

And I always tell people, you know, you enter this gateway and it's just, you know, you're like, oh, I'm in, you know, and you look at all, you know, you're looking around, don't see nothing. And then you go do it again, you know, to get a priest, you go in, I'm in again, you know, you're looking around. Nothing. Then finally you get the Dharma transfer. You say like, okay, there is nothing out of here. And that's the point. That's the point. Yeah. Get away from that. Yeah. Having to have something concretized and solidified and, you know, so you can understand it. So you can perceive it. So then you have an experience. I'm an, I'm a priest, so you have an experience. I'm a Dharma teacher. You have an experience. You know, it's all coming, you know, mostly from how you perceive it, the mind, you know, and what you think it's about, you know, because after I got Dharma transmitted, I went back and said, okay, that was great.

[71:47]

I did it for Blanche. Ooh, this is beautiful brown. I'm ready to disrobe. I always tell this story. I'm done. And they said, no, no, no, you can't. So I said, okay, I'm going to just roll from the inside. I'll do it internally, but I am not doing this. And I'm glad I did that. I'm glad I waited because they said, wait, don't do it, don't do it. And then when I did the Jukai, my first Jukai, when I led my first Jukai, I said, okay, see, I was perceiving something else. I never knew that I was going to be standing at the gateway of liberation. I had no idea for others. To walk with me. In that open field of nothing. I never would have figured that out. Had I not stayed. That's for me. Maybe other dharma trends. Don't have that. I feel like I'm just. Kind of enjoying you.

[72:48]

And the spirit that is here. And the humor. And the honesty. And the authenticity. And the. Bell ringing. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. I'm having to hold my computer with one hand so I can only do one hand. All right. I just couldn't bear to let you go without thanking you so much. for coming and joining us once again. It's been a long time and we miss you. I miss you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking at all the people I haven't seen in a long time. It's good to see folks. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Please come again. Yeah. Wonderful teaching. Yeah. Thank you. All right. I hope you have a really good rest of your day and week and, you know, restful.

[73:55]

I'm trying to rest. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much, Sanju, and thank you, everybody, for coming. In a moment, I will enable everyone to unmute if you'd like to sign off and say goodbye. Before I do, excuse me, like Sanju, not... at all trying to sell Zen, but to acknowledge that the temple really does rely on the donations and support of all of you to keep going, keep sustaining the Dharma. So in the chat window, there's a link that you feel able to give today. In addition to your kind attention, please feel free to. And with that, I will enable the unmute and please say goodbye as you sign up. Thank you, Sanju. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you to see everybody.

[74:57]

Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Zenju. Thank you, everyone. Bye-bye. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you for coming. All right. Thank you, Osho. Thank you, Jiryu.

[75:17]

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