This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning, everyone. So this is our first class. where we will begin together. I hope you've been looking at the materials that I gave you. Yes? They were passed out. Does everyone have a packet? So this is... As you know, the theme for the practice period, upright and complete the practice of right speech.

[01:18]

And what I Xeroxed, you know, I was going to Xerox a bigger workbook with more articles and things. And just in light of right speech, I went to Kinko's and I was going to have him do this. workbook and bind it, and he said, are any of these things copyrighted? And, of course, there were some articles and different things, and I said that they were. Although Zen Center holds the copyright for a number of things, so that was okay for my own lectures or whatever. And he said, well, we can't do it, you know. But you can do it yourself. We can't stop you from doing it. So I went over to the Xerox machine myself and plastered all over it was, do not copy anything that's copyrighted, you know. And I just couldn't go ahead and do it. I just couldn't do it. So the things that I gave to you, some of them Zen Center holds the copyright for Dogen's work.

[02:27]

Also my pulling excerpts from different things. I thought that was okay. And also... There is a Theravadan monk who says, you can use my material, just cite it. So included in the Xeroxing is his where to find it on the internet and his, you know, the contact and so forth. So anyway, but that was, it was a great little contact with precepts, right speech, even for the best of reasons. I just felt I couldn't go ahead with it. But I'll bring up other things in the sessions and in the classes that you don't have in hand. How I came to study this this year, which I think I mentioned during the first opening talk, was the strong response to...

[03:31]

the level of discourse, the level, the use of language in a certain way on the Internet, in speeches. And I thought, wouldn't it be good? I want to, for my own sake, to study this more in depth. And it's very, very basic. You know, the Buddha brought up the practice of right speech in the first turning of the wheel, in his first Dharma talk. And I'm not sure how you all feel about this, but sometimes there's very basic teachings that we might just skip over or not ever spend much time with, like the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path and leap into our Zen literature and teachings. And I came across this quote from Tygen Leighton. Many of you know him. He was a student here and also... has written many wonderful books.

[04:32]

And he said Zen is like graduate school, and the kind of basic teachings need to be looked at first. And I think Shohaku Okamura also says, you know, the studying of the basic teachings as a foundation for understanding what our practice is. So... Just bearing that in mind, I think we will go over some pretty, this is tickling me, some basic teachings. And I wanted to spend some time with some basic teachings. So speech is part of our everyday life, nonstop, daily interactions, communications. The power of speech is incredibly powerful.

[05:37]

The power of unbeneficial speech, unwholesome speech, and the power of wholesome beneficial speech. The power of speech and the karma of speech is not to be underestimated. Underestimated. Just saying something about karma. As you know, there's three... Karma comes in... Karma means action. It comes in three types. The action of body, speech, and mind. So we have these three kinds of action. And speech is the mind just thinking something... Oh, right on the cover of your... Packet is from the Dhammapada, this poem on two sides of this. This is Gil Fransdal's translation.

[06:38]

All experience is preceded by mind, led by mind, made by mind, speak or act with a corrupted mind, and suffering follows as the wheels, as the wagon wheel follows. the hoof of the ox. And then on the other side, all experiences preceded by mind, led by mind, made by mind, speak or act with a peaceful mind, and happiness follows like a never-departing shadow. So these are three kinds of karma. The mind, which really comes first, how we think, view and our intention and then speaking and acting with the body and this Dhammapada is one of the earliest teachings in verse of the Buddha and so this is our karmic acts so we have mind first and then speech and then bodily acts so speech

[07:49]

is incredibly important in the teachings. And if you look at our precepts, our 16 Bodhisattva precepts, I would say all of them maybe have to do with speech, but six in particular, I would say, note it. The precept disciple, the Buddha, does not lie. And we can lie mostly by speech, but also with body language. And with silence we can lie as well, but often it's speech. Slandering, our disciple of the Buddha does not intoxicate mind or body of self and others. Words, often this is about substances, you know, intoxicating with substances, but also being intoxicated by the Dharma, using words to intoxicate others, to bring people into your influence. Yeah, to poison, you know, intoxicated is to poison.

[08:58]

And this can be done with speech as well as substances. The precept of praising self at the expense of others, I think, is most definitely verbal. Yeah, so that also is speech. harboring ill will. A disciple of the Buddha does not harbor ill will. I think when we harbor ill will, we make a place for ill will in our hearts, and then we express it through anger and angry words often. Not always, but... So I think harboring ill will also connects very strongly with speech. And then the last of the... Ten major precepts is not disparaging the triple treasure. So disparage is speaking badly about the Buddha Dharma and Sangha, turning people away from by using disparaging remarks.

[10:04]

Abuse is another translation of whatever that character is, does not abuse the triple treasure. which is also often verbal, right? I suppose we can abuse or disparage by destroying sutras or something as well, but often it's verbal. So our precepts really emphasize six out of the ten, and I think if you say, Disciple of the Buddha does not kill... We can also kill with our speech, although I didn't put this one down, but through harsh speech, through criticism, through sarcasm, we can kill creativity, kill the spirit of someone, discourage someone, so kind of killing and also taking what is not given. We can take up a lot of space with our hot air.

[11:09]

Or with our joking around, that may be taking what is not given. So I think speech is there as well. And also misusing sexuality. Often speech is involved in seduction, deception. As I said, bringing someone into our influence through words. So really, right speech, I think, permeates, is laced through all of the precepts. Another point about karma and karmic formations. So karmic formations are in the five skandhas, samskara skanda, our emotional... habitual way of seeing and doing things that was formed, karmic formations were formed without our knowing it even.

[12:18]

We are formed by what we see, what we hear, what we're taught, the way we were educated, the way our parents were, everything we've read and so forth. And we may have come to certain habits of speech. I mentioned sarcasm. There's also the tendency to argue and be contradictory. And we might say, well, that's just who I am. That's how I was brought up. That's my family always that way too. Which to me, yes, yes, that's true. However, if we... hold to that or cling to that as a kind of fixed view, like that's who I am, like at a lumpage, you know, that is to me a kind of stuckness, really.

[13:18]

Stuck in this is who I am, which really flies in the face of the teaching that we are dependently co-arisen and not a separate stone. particular self. We are created by causes and conditions, and when we're not according with causes and conditions because of fixed view, one of the fixed views, this is how I am, I question that. I think that can be an excuse for holding to what's familiar, what's stood us in good stead over the years, what was maybe a survival technique, what we're used to, just familiarity. And so I want this study that we do to help us to look at that, reflect on that, our patterns of speech, what our default is around speech.

[14:28]

Or silence also. Sometimes, you know, people's default is not to speak and clinging to that. So there's a range, you know, a wide range with introvert, extrovert, and all sorts of things. However, each of us can benefit by reflecting on patterns. to routinized ways of speaking, thinking, and acting, of course, and also how that serves us or doesn't serve us. So I had mentioned on the one day sitting about personal power, this phrase, personal power.

[15:36]

And one of the aspects of personal power is our ability to communicate. And in all sorts of ways. And to communicate. with skill. Both body language and words is something on the path that is a benefit to ourselves and to everyone. So before I get into the definition which I had mentioned before, but I wanted to go over that. I wanted to say that Shariputra, who was one of Buddha's disciples, early disciples, one of the shravaka.

[16:38]

The shravaka, it means to hear. The shravaka are the ones who hear the vaka, the voice of the Buddha. They actually were alive and heard the Buddha speak, so they were the voice hearers. And Shra comes from the Shrutta, or the root, meaning to hear. So they heard the voice of the Buddhists, and there's this wonderful statue, maybe you've seen it, of Shariputra, kind of sitting, not in formal posture, but kind of with his legs to the side, and kind of inclining his ear to the Buddha to hear the words of the Buddha. So the Shravaka... I think we're all voice hearers. We can all make our effort to hear the Dharma spoken by the whole universe, actually. In sentient beings speak the Dharma.

[17:39]

The mountains and rivers and waters speak the Dharma. And then there's formal, you know, Dharma talks. But each one of us, and I've heard you... Last night I heard people speaking the Dharma, you know, speaking from their own experience and sharing the truth of their life with others. And for us to be able to hear it, to be shravaka and hear the voice, means we have to be present and open and not caught in self-serving, self-cleaning, self-concern. I wanted to make it available for any questions or anything anyone wants to ask as we go along. I gave those of you who were at Green College for the spring practice period, we did upright and complete also this class, and I hope we're able to get to everything that I had hoped

[18:58]

One thing I did want to mention in terms of an overview of the class, I wanted to offer the practice of shakyo, which is copying sutras, so copying the words of the sutras. And in this instance, we have a wonderful array of materials to help us with this practice. which is very old, copying the sutras. In the Lotus Sutra, you know, it says many times to read, recite, copy, and expound for others, the Lotus Sutra. And copying the Heart Sutra is an old practice. And what we have, courtesy of Shuman Cho, courtesy of Soto Zen, this was gifted to us, this set up with... templates of the Heart Sutra in Japanese, the kanji, tracing paper that you put over it.

[19:59]

And for some reason, this tracing paper does not go through onto the template, so you can use them over again. And then we have, I brought brushes and ink, and we can put weights on the tracing paper and copy the Heart Sutra together. And you can dedicate this practice to someone or to the benefit of the world and sign it and either keep it or often they're kept at the temple. People come and do this practice. So we'll be doing that during a study hall, during a Dharma event scheduled. Yes. Yes, yes. We were talking about more patients and how we're influenced by our families. Yes. I also thought how we're influenced by our gender, our generation, our cultural background, and these have a big effect on how we speak.

[21:07]

Yes, thank you. Yes, gender issues, ethnic, being either majority or minority, Our culture, which either told us we want to hear what you have to say or we don't want to hear what you have to say, all these affect our speech and when we come forth and finding our voice and expressing ourselves. So this is very important, really, those huge karmic formations from all over, you know, these messages that we get and internalize. Yes. It's maybe a dumb question, but speak. There's a voice in my head. Do you consider that speaking? Yes, I'm seeing you through. Yes. There you go. I lack the same control over that, and that is sometimes frustrating because I see that as speaking mostly to myself and judgment.

[22:19]

Yes. Yes. Yes, I think this is internal and external speech, and when we look at the definition of, which we're about to move to, what is samyak, vak, or right speech, it's, you know, it includes telling the truth, no harsh speech or abusive speech, no frivolous talk and idle chatter, these kinds of things. So... So are we mindful both in interiorly and internal and external speech? I think if we're working and reflecting on and remembering what's going on internally, that will affect externally as well. Yeah, so definitely this is internal and external speech. Yeah. We teach this in San Quentin, actually, because all corrections officers say the same thing. If you think it, don't say it. If you say it, don't do it. Body, speech, and mind.

[23:21]

You get in the most trouble if you actually get something. Yes. Trash talk, that's not so great either. And eventually you need to work on... So this control, you brought up control, Miles. Yeah, and I think... Control may not be efficacious, you know. I mean, if you read Suzuki Roshi about control in Zen Man Beginner's Mind, do you remember what he says? I forgot that part. Give your sheep a wide pasture, but don't ignore it. Watch very carefully. Watch your sheep or your cow. So part of all this is, I think, a kind of slowing down, looking at, reflecting on, what's going on. It's not to stop it and smush it and control it that way.

[24:22]

It's through careful honoring and examining and reflecting. And someone might say, well, I'm moving too fast. I've got too much going on. That may be so, but hopefully as we reflect over the weeks here, it will... It will arise, you know, how it is that this is important to do and what might I take up as a practice, right? Over and over. Yes? It's kind of about speech. It's more about precepts than the story you started with. I wonder, is it possible to make copies of copyrighted material still be following the precepts? I think, you know, one might say... which I was trying to say to myself, but it's for those monks at Tazahara. This will be helpful for them. And this time around, I've done it before.

[25:26]

I haven't thought about it so much. But when I was really confronted, like this is prohibited in the conventional world. Although you can do it, I can't stop you. And this time around, it was like, I felt there was kind of, not hubris exactly, but I'm kind of above that. And this is for a good part. And I didn't feel comfortable. So maybe next time around, you know, my intention was not to rip off the writers of these books or make money off of it. However, by Xeroxing it, maybe 20 people aren't going to buy the book. Or I don't know. So... I think that's something I have to keep churning. Yes? Yes. Yes.

[26:27]

Yes. Is this speech beneficial? Is this action beneficial? Is this effort beneficial? That to me felt more resonant than, and less chastising than, that's wrong speech. Thank you. That moves us right into the definition of Samyak, because I think in English it's right, you know, the Eightfold Path has right in front of all these things. And when we hear right in English, it becomes right and wrong right away. So... The definition of samyak or sama in Pali, samyak in Sanskrit, is in the right way, straight, which is why I called it upright. It's kind of upright, like our posture, it's upright. Complete, all flowing or moving in one direction is another definition.

[27:30]

So it's... It's flowing all together. It's cohesive. You know, I talked about cohesion and what's cohesive in the first talk, and I think cohesion and flowing all in the same way, upright, complete. Also, it denotes togetherness, coherence, completion, and it also translates as wholesome, wise, skillful. And the opposite of samyak, maybe we should use samyak because it doesn't carry, you know, it's kind of free from a lot of our connotations about it, but the opposite is unbeneficial, unskillful, unwholesome. So I think we could say there are ways of speaking that are not wise, that create conditions for suffering.

[28:31]

that are harsh, that are cruel. So to enter into practices and learn practices of speech that are beneficial, a benefit to others, is samya, vak, or this kind of right. Yeah, so it's not a judgment about this is right and this is wrong. It's more wholesome, unwholesome. Beneficial, unbeneficial. And it also, I just want to say, in a certain context, circumstance, certain causes and conditions, the same utterance may be beneficial, and in another setting, it can be unbeneficial. Now, you can ponder that a little bit, but to say, To shout no to Calliope because she's going to touch a stove or something is right speech, right?

[29:40]

Even if she gets frightened and cries, it's completely, you do it again for her sake. But to shout no to, I don't know, somebody you don't like who's about to sit next to you or something, I don't know. Just made that up. Or circumstances where to... That would be harsh, would be unskillful, would be cruel. So this is why it's such an alive practice. You can't say, well, I've got my right speech and I haul it out in all these different situations. It is constantly moving. Causes and conditions never are ever flowing. So we can't hold to Oh, I know what to say here. Each situation will need full-on presence of mind and also knowing and understanding your situation as best you can.

[30:50]

And this is also a kind of humbling experience because, of course, we can never know fully. We can never fully, maybe fully, express right speech. Samyak Vak. We can get as close as we can. Which, when I say humbling, I mean the tendency to pride ourselves or pray self is there were always when Dharma fills our body and mind, we know there's something missing. And to bear that in mind, that we do our best, but we may miss. So this is the Samyak, and so we can't judge right or wrong by some kind of standard that's fixed, although basically when we say beneficial, skillful, I think we're pointing to not

[31:57]

creating more suffering for others and harming. I think that's like the kind of bedrock of what, when we're talking about wholesome or upright, it has that as the background, non-harming. So, yes? Yeah, well, In the case of Calliope, she may not be able to say a lot. She probably would be too upset, you know. But you can reflect on that. Was that skillful? Did it stop her from getting hurt? Okay. In the other situations, this is...

[32:57]

One way, I'm going to get into what the definition of right speech is, and then how to kind of test whether it was or wasn't. And it has to do with our state of mind often when we said it. If we were saying it out of compassion and kindness, saving someone, whether they liked it or not, it stands, I think, as Samyak Bak says. But if it's coming from ill will or, what, avoidance, irritation, anger, then that shout, you know, that if we test it with, you know, whether it was beneficial or helpful. Sometimes, though, maybe someone did speak to you in anger. And it was helpful to you, even though it might not be called right speech from their point of view because they had an angry mind.

[34:03]

Somehow it got through to you in a way that woke you up. You know, so it's so it's very hard to pin down. Yeah. Yes. Good, that actually very nicely flows into the kind of definition of right speech and then these ways of testing and looking at interiorly what's going on. Actually, I feel like I want to put a parenthesis around that for a minute and hop back to where right speech, Samyak Vak, fits in kind of the Buddhist path before we get to the definition, if you'll allow me.

[35:06]

So the first turning of the wheel, you know, when the Buddha wanted to share his experience with the five monks. By the way, I just heard that, you know, Sujata, one of our... Sujata was the one who brought the Buddha the rice pudding, where he gained strength and then sat under the Bodhi tree. She thought he was a tree spirit, and she was giving thanks for the birth of her son. Anyway, later on, or no, one of her other sons, I just read this, was one of the five monks who heard the Buddha's first turning of the wheel. Anyway, that was a little tidbit that I had never heard before. So the definition of where it fits in the overall path.

[36:11]

So the Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths, the truth of suffering, the truth of the origin of suffering, the truth of the cessation of suffering, and the path to the cessation of suffering. Those are the four noble truths. And then the path to the cessation of suffering is the eightfold noble path. And, you know, in terms of, you know, what Taigin was saying about Zen is graduate school and, you know, we need to know the basics, I think it would be fruitful to... Learn by heart the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path is just a kind of real kind of basic, because it's referred to all the time. So if you don't know them by heart, that might be something you might want to take up. And I have a mnemonic for it, which is visalemic, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right understanding.

[37:20]

livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. Visalemic, that's how I remember it. Visalemic, right view, right intention, right speech, that's the vis, right action, right livelihood, vis, right... Effort, mindfulness, and concentration, right? This is a limit. Anyway, so right speech is right there after right view and right intention. And the Buddha has brought it up in innumerable ways. And right speech, so that we have the Noble Eightfold Path, and that's divided into three kind of clumps. Shila, Samadhi, and Prajna. So Shila is Sanskrit for ethical life or morality, wholesome, ethical.

[38:22]

And under Shila comes three things, speech, action, and livelihood. Speech, action, and livelihood. in this clump of the Eightfold Path of those folds or those parts, spokes of the wheel, fall under the practice of the path, which is morality, shila. And under samadhi would be mindfulness, concentration, and also right effort is under the samadhi, shila samadhi. Samadhi is, you know, one-pointedness, a gathering, of the mind, and so effort, mindfulness, concentration. And then prajna, wisdom, is right view and right intention. So these three, shila, samadhi, and prajna, kind of circle around with their eightfold with the spokes, you know, under each one of them.

[39:31]

And they affect one another. They... if one is practicing shila, meaning an ethical life, right speech, right livelihood, not doing things in one's profession that's harming others, are actions of body and that creates a life that can then practice samadhi or one-pointedness or focus settled zazen, settled life. If we're not practicing morality or an ethical life, because it's not in a court actually, we're kind of destabilized. Plus there's a whole mess of trouble that can happen, that you're constantly putting out fires, sweeping up messes,

[40:37]

having to have conflict resolution meetings or ask to leave situations, you know. So one of my first Dharma talks that Zen Tatsu Baker gave, he said, if you steal pencils from work, you will not be able to sit Sassen. And at the time I thought, what do you mean sit? Who would know, you know, if I take a pencil home from work? What do you mean I can't sit down or I won't be able to? That totally makes no sense. The two things are totally separate, is what I thought. And often people have that feeling, like don't talk to me about this over here. That's none of your business. But it affects, it's just one life, you know. So if we're not... acting in an upright way in our life, how will we be able to settle and bring ourselves to one-pointedness and to focus our life or our bodies?

[41:47]

And then, so that's Sheila and Samadhi, how they work together, and then settling, being able to settle to have insight or prajna or wisdom. And of course, through wisdom and insight, we want to practice an ethical life, shila, because it's so clear how that, why, or how that is that that's a benefit. And then the more we practice shila, the more we practice samadhi and prashna and shila, samadhi, prashna, and it just goes round and round and round. So these are these trainings, shila, samadhi, and prashna are trainings in the on the path that have to do especially with the Eightfold Path. So right speech comes under shila, morality, ethical. And the Buddha defined right speech in a negative way as abandoning things, abandoning false speech, abandoning divisive speech, abandoning abusive speech,

[43:02]

or harsh speech and abandoning frivolous talk and idle chatter. Or another word is prattle. In English, prattle, prattle. So that just the definition in and of itself, the precepts are, you know, abandoning false speech. not lying, you know, abandoning harsh, abusive speech. Or, excuse me, divisive speech is the second. Under the divisive speech, there's, it's interesting because divisive speech can also be harsh, you know, and abusive. But it can also be very sweet, very mellifluous, very honeyed. But the purpose of it is to divide people, to talk to one group in a way to divide them from another, to create factions.

[44:09]

This is part of divisive speech. And then harsh and abusive speech, as I said before, you know, it also is, what is your intention? Because to say no in the right place is totally upright. So we have to be looking at our mind And then frivolous talk and idle chatter, someone might think, well, that's, why does the Buddha, you know, so what? It's not a big deal. It's fun, you know. But I think within frivolous talk and idle chatter comes distractedness, can come gossip, which can move into slander, can be hurtful, you know, just kind of aimlessly talking about all sorts of things, and other people often. So it may seem like it's kind of light, but I think it can do great harm, and also for our own quality of life, it can dissipate, well, it can dissipate a kind of energy, for sure, and it can also...

[45:29]

just be frittering away our time, you know? I think this frivolous talk and idle chatter, when you think of the internet, you know, those of you, when you go out, if you go on the internet, you can really fritter away hours, right? Just following various... of following along to one thing after another, which is mildly entertaining, but maybe afterwards you don't feel so great, actually. You feel pretty lousy. So if you engage in that kind of frittering away your time, both in gossiping or idle chatter and other ways. So those are the four things, which would be wonderful if you could learn them by heart. I've been trying. And I, yeah, so letting go of false speech, divisive speech, abusive or harsh speech, harsh speech, and frivolous talk and idle chatter.

[46:41]

Frivolous talk and idle chatter also comes up when the Buddha talked about the eight awakenings of great beings. Do you know that fascicle that comes from Shakyamuni and Dogon? wrote about it. It was one of the last things that the Buddha taught his disciples on his deathbed. Dogen also, one of the last fascicles he wrote, The Eight Awakenings of Great Beings. And the last, the eighth one, is also frivolous talk and idle chatter. So this is brought up again and again for our benefit, for our sake. and for the sake of all beings. Yeah. The five keys to how you can tell, Mahin was asking, well, how do you know whether it's right speech or not, or whether that loud shout that you've made to someone was coming from the right place.

[47:49]

So the five keys to right speech are also helpful, and they may be familiar to you, I think I mentioned them also on the first day. So the first is, how am I going to tell if this is right speech? The first is to ask yourself, is it true? That immediately goes to almost all of them, but it goes to false speech. Divisive speech, slander, you know, is it true? Frivolous talk, is it true? Gossip, harsh speech, is it true to call somebody a jerk? You know, or whatever the harsh, is that true? So this question, is it true, is really important. The next one, is it the right time? And I would say time and place, because time and place, you can't really separate it.

[48:54]

So you can ask, okay, it's true, but is it the right time and place in the middle of serve up, you know, or many, many other situations, in the Zando, you know, whispering something to somebody. There's so many times and places that is not the time and place. So if you say it in the wrong time and place, that's not upright, meaning not beneficial. And it also doesn't work so well if you really want to tell somebody something. So is it true? Is it the right time and place? And then this question, is it beneficial? And I think I have to say you can't know you're not omnipotent. We are not. Is it beneficial to the best? I bring everything to that question. Is it beneficial? Yes, as far as I can see, as far as my eye of practice can see, this will be beneficial.

[49:59]

And then is there an intention of goodwill? And I think what Carolyn was bringing up is, you know, if we're speaking not out of goodwill and out of benefiting somebody, but because we're angry, irritated, totally upset with them, It may not be skillful to speak from that because you want to give them a piece of your mind, right? You want to get it off your chest. These are all these phrases we have. You want to vent. There's another one. And my sense of that is it's not so skillful. It doesn't fall. The person gets defensive. They don't want to hear it. or they give it back to you, you know. So to reflect, is it true? Is it the right time and place?

[51:04]

Is it beneficial? Is it coming from this affection? Oh, I missed that. Is it beneficial? Is it affectionate? And is it coming from the mind of goodwill? The affectionate is connected with mind of goodwill. Is it... And there's something to say about affectionate and kind speech like that. No, may not sound affectionate or sound kind, the tone of voice and everything, but it is coming from deep compassion, which takes any aspect. Compassion takes any form, as we know from the thousand arms of Avalokiteshvara. Sometimes it's... and sweet and sometimes it's so there's some and the Buddha talks about this around this affection so our intention and this mind of goodwill is really really important so any thoughts yes

[52:22]

So this list here has it, five keys to write speech, time and place, is it true, beneficial, intention, the mind of goodwill, and affection. Is that five? I've seen different orders. I've seen time and place first, and I've seen true being, yeah, first. I think in your handout, there's the definition and the five keys are in here. This one has Vakkasutta, a statement from, this is, these aren't numbered, but it says, it is spoken at the right time, it is spoken in truth, it is spoken affectionately, It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of goodwill. So in this one, it's got the time.

[53:25]

Spoken at the right time is first. And I've seen other lists with it's true is the first thing to look at. Yes? Being a blocked word is a strong practice. And I find that the struggle and entanglements that are there are aversion, withdrawal, passive-aggressive miscellany, you know, sort of looking at how withholding one's speech when it's not coming from a place that you can feel the lack of generosity and the stinginess of being, you know, so you hold back from the speech, that there are other dynamics that as much as you're trying to offer the withholding as a block of wood, it becomes distorted through these other sort of karmic relationships that you've been cultivating throughout your life.

[54:37]

How does one use all of that stuff? So Catherine's bringing up this image from Shantideva of if I am, I think I might have given it to you too. There's a number of things from Shantideva, and his answer is to remain like a piece of wood, which, yeah, whenever there arises in my mind the desire to become attached or angry, I should not do or say anything. but remain as impassive as would. So when does that become something else? So what's arising, what Shantideva's bringing up is, I'm angry and I'm wanting something and attach and want to get something, and I notice that, so I'm going to wait.

[55:44]

But it doesn't mean to never, you know, when the time is ready, when you have the mind of goodwill has arisen again, then you bring forth something. So if it becomes a habit, I always remain as a piece of wood because that helps me avoid any trouble. I just, I don't say anything. But within... you might be holding on to criticism and judgment and ill will, harboring ill will. Then it's how do we come to that place where we want to speak out of benefit for the relationship, for the other person, for the situation. So as with all of Dharma, all of the teachings, People, we can all use it for, you know this phrase, spiritual bypassing.

[56:47]

You know that phrase, spiritual bypassing, where you take the teaching, you take the dharma and distort it in such a way that you use it, well, I'm just practicing my bodhisattva vow and, you know, remaining silent. But it's because of other reasons that it's hard to engage with someone or you don't have the skills, or you're afraid, but there's a way of using Dharma to avoid that spiritual bypassing. And it's pretty pervasive, I think, for all of us at times to use the Dharma in ways that actually give us an excuse to not do what's hard to do. doing that hard thing, which is, or being vulnerable, that kind of thing. Did that answer your question, Catherine, or speak to it? Yeah, I mean, I find it to be a place to look.

[57:55]

Yes. And I know that for myself, I have sought refuge in the block of wood. Yes. And I'm putting scare quotes around. Yes. And there has been perhaps a benefit to that in that the unskillfulness that I was feeling in my own heart could cause division in the community or, you know, catastrophically and to find the places that are safe and where that can be ignored and protected I think is important. I find that the value of docusons is holding a kind of safety for one's self-awareness and skillfulness and brokenheartedness and acknowledged

[59:01]

Yes. So I appreciate what you're saying. And for all of us, if we find that we can't bring something right away, you know, to get help with that, to talk it through with someone, either a Dharma friend or a practice leader, how am I going to bring up? What happened there? Why was I so hurt? What's going on? And to have a place to turn that over. And it may be that it gets processed in such a way that you don't need to bring it up with the person or you feel ready. And these are skills. Some people say, I'm not good at that or something. But these are dharmic tools and skills for... sharing our life and sharing the path. So we have our habits and then we have our challenges and frontiers.

[60:10]

And this area of speech, how to bring something up in a skillful way, is a never-ending, we can never get to the end of it, this skill and this practice. We can never fully accomplish it. It's And I have more to say about that. So it's ongoing. And when we're together with others who are working on it, practicing with right speech and with listening, hearing fully and active listening, and I think we might do some practice in active listening, which is also a skill that can be practiced and taken up. It's not some people are gifted only with it and are born with it. This is a skill to develop. So when we're all practicing this together, I think we can give each other the room that we need and support each other with doing what's hard to do, actually.

[61:19]

Yes, Piatta? I have two questions. You know, in my everyday life in city government... I frequently am in meetings with people and have to say things, even people senior to me who have power over me, say things that I know are not going to be pleasant for them. And I don't necessarily have time as the flow of, you know, everybody talking and all the data coming in and, you know, to really take out each of these keys and see if they fit. I mean, I certainly can assess truthfulness because that's kind of a given for me, but two, is it the right time? Well, I don't know, so-and-so's here, maybe, you know, or it's the only time I've got. This is one meeting happening on this subject matter. I mean, there's pressure on speech. And, you know, with the key value of the culture we live in being speed, it's very challenging.

[62:27]

So I'm wondering if sometimes I find myself kind of sitting there going, oh, should I say anything? Should I jump away? Should I shut? And I wonder, and sometimes I just confess that. You say that to the meeting? Yeah. Sometimes I just say, look, you know, I have no idea how to say this, and I might not be really skillful, but I feel I need to say it now. And then I say it and deal with, you know, sort of take what comes. And I try to be as, you know, as skillful as I can. I don't want to lose my job. I want to get my job done and be skillful. But I wonder if you think that's helpful to sort of say. I do. I do. I do. And I... You know, in terms of practice of right speech and communication and listening, what you described is what I would call dipping, where you just go down into what you're feeling and bring that up to the meeting and say, you stand in your Dharma position, which is unassailable, it is completely your Dharma position, and you say, I don't know if this is helpful or not, but I need to express this.

[63:37]

And to me, that's skillful. you know, to sit on it and then later wish you hadn't hesitated or the meeting then goes in a whole other way that you see as unbeneficial. So I think it's very good, not just in city government, but right here, crew meetings, anytime, you know, to be able to contact what's going on with you. And... Not just I'm irritated and angry with you, although that can be said too, rather than acting out our irritation and anger to say I'm feeling really angry right now, also can be a benefit to a group, you know, to hear. So, yeah, I think it does move fast, and maybe the reflection comes afterwards. You know, that wasn't the right time. I would do that differently, and that goes into our body-mind.

[64:39]

Yeah. And so one of the things in the writings that you presented that's a little confusing to me is, and I'm referencing Suva Sita Sita, well-spoken. Yes. By Ganasara Miku. Yes. In the last paragraph on the first page of that, he talks, he says, speak only in hearing speech, speech that is welcomed. And speech that to others is pleasant. And I'm like, whoa, how can I judge that? I don't live in their karma. That's... perfect that you brought that up because the Buddha actually, and I thought I gave it to you too, it's the one where they try to trick the Buddha. Did I give that to you? Maybe I didn't Xerox that one. Which I'll just say to you that this story.

[65:46]

So the Buddha was... He speaks exactly to that point. There was... a teacher from another group who said to a man who was going to invite the Buddha to his house, in fact, he said, invite the Buddha and his followers to your house, and then ask him if he always, you know, speaks with pleasing and affectionate, you know, isn't that what you taught? And... And he'll say, yes, that's what I taught. And then you say, but what about the time when you yelled at Devadatta? And then you'll catch the Buddha, you'll trap him. Because he's going to say yes to that, but you know that he didn't speak to his cousin Devadatta, who some of you know tried to kill the Buddha. You spoke harshly to him, so there, you're going to catch him. So this man, the nobleman, invited the Buddha to come to his house.

[66:49]

And he said, after the meal was finished, he asked the Buddha about this very thing, and the Buddha said, it depends. And he said, it depends. You win, you win. You foiled this other guy by your answer. You didn't fall into the trap. And then the Buddha said... There are times, oh, and this man was holding a baby at the time. And it says in the commentary that he was holding the baby because, and this is so true, he thought if it didn't go his way and if the Buddha was a little, you know, he was losing the argument, he would pinch the baby and the baby would start crying and say, oh, I have to leave now, the baby needs to leave. And we got out of the bad situation. So he's holding this baby. And the Buddha says, and this is taking what is at hand as the teaching tool. He said, for example, your little sweetheart there, if your baby was choking on something, what would you do?

[67:57]

And he said, I'd do anything. I'd turn him upside down. Even if I had to draw blood, I would do whatever I could to get the object out. out of his throat. And the Buddhists said, yes. And in the same way, if speaking unaffectionately or raising your voice or saying something that may be not experienced as affectionate or kind, but it's for the sake of that person, then you do it. You say it. So that's why it depends. It's the intent. Yeah, it's the intent. Thank you. This is something that I come up against a lot about intention and I feel like this in general really values that prioritizes intention and that goes pretty contradictory with what I'm taught in like anti-oppressive language spaces about there's like a mantra impact over impact and it pretty specifically says that your intention actually doesn't matter specifically around like

[69:04]

just ignorance about, um, you know, another person's experience or, um, if, you know, their culture is separate from marriage or they're coming from a different place or like, in that case, like a microaggression, you know, and you might say something or like generalize bias and you, you know, the person says something, you say, well, you know, I, I meant well by that, but actually, um, it really offended the person. So in that sort of practice, like the, the way that they teach to be an ally is to say, actually, I'm going to put my defensiveness aside and my good intention aside and really listen to what the other person has to say. And it really minimizes intent because I think, like, especially I'm thinking of an anti-racist speech, a lot of white people say, oh, I've had really good intentions, but actually there was a pretty strong ignorance and they didn't really know the impact of their words so I'm just wondering how you reference that yes thank you for bringing that up I think you're exactly I'm this using intention as as an excuse as as a but I meant well or whatever people say I didn't mean that I didn't my intentions were good and looking at what

[70:25]

what the result was of your speech in this case. Still, there is speech where the intention itself was, I want to really, I want to hurt this person. I want to put them down. I want others to put them down. I want to divide them from a, you know, there can be that kind of intention, which is being, is proscribed, you know. So... When you look at your intention, you say, I was trying to be friendly, but it was not skillful. And the impact was the person was put off or hurt or oppressed by that, whatever it is. You can't fall back on your intention and say, oh, but my intentions were good. It's more, I was not skillful. However... You can also look, was I trying to be cruel? Was I trying to oppress? Was I trying to raise myself above or exercise privilege or whatever it is or not?

[71:30]

And you can look at that and identify it. Or you might look and say, I was not wide enough in my understanding and in my habits and my attempt at being friendly was really unskillful. But I was trying to be friendly. But you're right. I think that using that as a pass in some way for the impact that you had on someone is kind of another use, another kind of not upright speech, actually. Yeah. Do you think there's any way to kind of check yourself? Because I think with the vast majority of these cases, microaggressions are... offensive speech the person doesn't know that they're saying anything and and then you know nine times out of ten nothing happens or they they don't have a way to know that it wasn't skillful and then they go on about their day and yeah they just don't it's they're you know a fish swimming in the water and it's they're like there's nothing to tell them

[72:42]

to wake up, um, especially if there's a power dynamic and the person feels hurt or uncomfortable, they're not going to say anything. So you're saying, Sam, I mean, it's skillful, but how, what's that kind of like, um, you know, metric to know, um, especially if you're sort of in a cultural context, that's not going to like follow you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think for sure, if there's a power dynamic, it's very hard to bring it up. And that's, um, In our situation here, for example, we do have different, we have senior students, but we can get help when there's a power dynamic with an ally or another practice leader to bring something up or to have help. So that's one thing, because I think you're right. I think it's unconscious bias, unconscious habit, unconscious. This just happened to me recently in a meeting

[73:43]

where someone used as an example of something, anyway, it was offensive to me, and I thought, if we're going to work together, somebody I don't know very well, if we're going to work together, I have to bring this up, I have to, you know, this image that they used and so forth. So I did my best to say, when you used that, this is what it felt like, and Thank goodness they were not defensive and didn't say, oh, but, and I didn't mean it, and I'm from Texas, and they didn't do any of that. They just thought, actually what they said was when I said it, I already felt that it was off. And so that was a good outcome, you know, that I went ahead and I felt I have to do this because I'm going to be working with this person. I have to. say it, even though it was not comfortable.

[74:47]

So to get help is one, and this is our suffering. This is one of the sufferings I feel of that we hurt people all the time and don't know it. And maybe we pick up on some energetic thing that they're kind of avoiding us, or we never did get to be friends with them, but we don't really know how or why or what. And we're not either attuned or, you know, it's work. It's a lifetime of work to look at our unconscious. We can't see it when it's unconscious and to ask even. So... You're right. I think this is one of our sufferings that we have together and in community and especially there's a chance for us to learn, you know.

[75:49]

There's a chance for us to be that willing to hear when we are off base, you know. And I want you all to know that. I welcome your feedback, your commentary on my speech or my my unconscious bias or, yeah, ways of saying something or describing something that may be not wide enough. So please let me know. Yeah, thank you. Nate? If I may speak to that just now. It sounded like a little bit that that was leading toward intent as being kind of a prerequisite, but not sort of the final thing that you can escape through and get repassed from. And it's better to have good intent along with skillful means.

[76:53]

But if you have... It's better to have good intent and non-skillful means than to have ill intent and non-skillful means. So it's like... but it's also obviously better to have good intent and skillful means. But yeah, so it's kind of like holding that lightly. It's like, okay, well, you just kind of keep adding on, I suppose, and keep trying your best in that arena. Definitely. I think having good intentions and the skills to have that intention be expressed in the world through body, speech, and mind is, you know, that would be, that's the ideal, maybe that's our practice, to have good intentions and unskillfulness that can be a real Dharma gate for, you know, refining our life, actually, and becoming more and more and more attuned and skilled to, oh, part of, you know, sometimes in Zazen, something will come up that I've said or done

[78:09]

not with ill intent, but it will like arise in its full-blown glory, you know, of something that was off, you know. So, yes, the intention, but unskillfulness can cause great harm also, but there's a chance to learn from that, everybody, and And then ill intent, wanting to be cruel, wanting to hurt, wanting to get back, wanting to have revenge, wanting to show that you're better than everybody or whatever it is. And then you can be skillful of that too, I guess, in a funny way, using the word skillful in a different way. But yeah, that would be probably the most cause of suffering. Yeah. Diego. Probably a great... Unskillfulness with ignorance.

[79:14]

Yeah. I think they're locked together, actually. Ignorance and unskillfulness, really. Although we can still be ignorant and skillfully ask for help, you know, to... because we're aware that we don't know. But I think you're right. I think the two work together. Yeah. But unskillful, almost the word itself constellates skillfulness, so there's a chance for skillfulness. Anyway, that's very interesting, putting those, laminating those two together, skillfulness, unskillful and ignorant, yeah. Thank you.

[80:14]

Greg? Tom and Kate, what we're talking about is the way I see it, with this intentional versus effect thing, is when somebody says, well, I didn't attend that, or, well, of course I didn't mean to, you know, disparage that community, or whatever. You know, a good ally can say, I believe it. I totally trust that you didn't. And that's why I think we can trust each other. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it'll be interesting as we talk about this to catch in our own speech when we do that, you know, I didn't mean to, or of course, or, and we might even drop that. Um, to say, tell me what happened for you. What just happened? I don't know. You know? It may be less defensive in a certain way. Yeah.

[81:21]

Kristen? The idea of the value of expressing intention For instance, it doesn't seem like enough to me to say, I don't know if this is the right time or place, but I have to say whatever. I've heard that in many ways, and sometimes it feels that I'm just creating a defense against whatever feedback I may be about to receive for what pressure I feel to depress myself. But if I say, it is my intention, I'm doing it first perhaps and foremost for myself to get in touch with what is the intention behind this, you know, emotional pressure to leave something. And then I'm sharing that and implicit in sharing that I have this intention is also a cognizance that we're about to say it's going to have something back.

[82:23]

And in a way, there can be this spirit of invitation where I acknowledge my intention and share that. I'm implicitly inviting you to really let me know in one way or another whether or not it comes across in a way that is important with the intention that I say. So that's the first piece. And the other piece, as I'm listening, is that in my mind, the development of the skillful speech is not about avoiding mistakes. Because mistakes are going to be continually happening. But how do we stay in conversation? how we stay in a relationship. Otherwise, it very quickly becomes about control. This idea if I just become still poor enough, I'll never get it wrong. But you'll never know, really. I'll never know what's about to happen, what all of the causes and conditions are in this moment.

[83:27]

Yes, I completely... The first part of what you said sounds, I mean, I didn't hear it as countering exactly what Beata was saying, but another thing you can do might be to say, my intention is to speak about this or convey this and how that invites, whether that worked or not, whether I made a successful, whether it was conveyed and expressed successfully. and to hear that feedback. So that also seems like a way to speak when you don't know for sure. The other thing, I really feel this one continuous mistake, and that we'll never know, is really the kind of water we're swimming in. And also what I said about we can never say it all, we can never be complete, complete in either hearing or expressing is...

[84:32]

I feel like that's true, too. There's a koan where the person is asked, you know, speak about this thing or I'll hit you. Don't speak about it or I'll hit you. And there's no way out. There's no escape from whether you say something, that's not right. If you don't say something, that's not right. And Katagiri Roshi wrote these two books. You know, the first was Return to Silence, and the second book was You Have to Say Something. And I think that second book, it's never going to be exactly right on, but we have to express ourselves and share our life. Yeah. So I think the resting in silence It's never going to be perfect or complete.

[85:35]

Complete. I don't know if that gives us confidence to just make the effort to try, knowing it's not going to be perfect, dropping off perfect, you know, dropping away perfection and making a full, wholehearted effort. wanted to do a time check. 10.47. And when is Asana usually at this time? Usually at 10.40. 10.40. So I'm, I know there's some more hands, but I was thinking it might feel right to just kind of stop now and kind of let what we looked at and talked about just absorb it and reflect on it and sit and You know, in the Genzoe sessions that Okamura Roshi does, there's these teachings followed by sitting.

[86:38]

You know, you just sit, and then you study, and then you sit. And I think the two together kind of worked very well together in terms of having the materials sink in. Okay. And Catherine, I know you had a question. Who else had a question? Did somebody else have their hand up? Laura, did you... We'll pick it up next time. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[87:28]

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