This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Yesterday, we just opened the space to conversation. That's what we're doing in our retreat, we're having a conversation and sharing. So I'm really curious about what's going on for people here. I know what I think already. I was really moved by Bianca's expression yesterday and how she shared with us how painful it is to

[01:01]

that person using your voice and how much she cares and thinking about that and thinking about the groups that were started this summer and wondering how we can use our voices in ways that are skillful. I realized being here this summer that I have the privilege of being part of a Sangha whose leadership is not only on board but initiating and leading and facilitating the classes and doing the things. Not that there isn't leadership here who's on board, but it's different. It's not coming from top down as much as I used to. And so I've been feeling the struggle here, with the sauna here this summer. know, there's just certain ways of being that voice that may look defensive and divisive, and there are certain ways of being that voice that can be connecting, but how do you do that?

[02:18]

You know, there have been attempts to make contact with the Abbots Council that had been rebuffed because people didn't approach them in what was deemed the right way, And, you know, I was thinking Heather and I co-facilitate the women's group here, or I think other people might eventually too, but so I feel like I have a responsibility to the group, and some things were voiced in the group, one of them being that the male ancestors are chanted more than the female ancestors here, and people feel like that's, you know. actually dismissive of the women ancestors and harmful to women and men and pretty much everybody to have one group over another in that way. And I'm thinking like, oh, well, maybe we can do something about it instead of complaining about it in group.

[03:21]

And I thought, well, maybe I can start a petition here and we can all sign at people who think that, you know, this should be something that should be done. and it could be taken to the Abyss Council. And I just wondered how to approach this. Is that the right way? Is talking about it here bringing it out the right way? How do you be that voice in a way that is appreciated by the leadership and taken and respected and honored and dealt with and not dismissed? you know, there's our practice and then there's just strategy. And, you know, many people have been here for a while and you know something of what the Avis Council is like. And so really considering what is the Avis Council protecting, if you will, usually along the lines of something like the tradition and making sure that people are protected

[04:32]

understand their location and are not sullying the three treasures and all of those things. So I might just ask, get a hold of an abbot, say, this is really painful for us. What is from your own heart? And we want to know, what do you think is the best way for us to communicate this to the whole council, just person to person? This is what is true for us. If we objectify the council, the Avid's council, into this sort of thing that we need to make it listen, then especially given that it has power, it's not likely to respond well. And that's not to say that we always have to coddle power, but sometimes if That's more expedient, and you don't have the conditions in which to call the abbot's counselor.

[05:45]

You're made up of people. You're made up of people that love all of you. And like anyone else, like sometimes very much like our parents, they can be stuck. And they can be more stuck in the how than it seems reasonable. what to give up when you keep your eye on what is the most important thing, it is to have this communication. And so if you need to say it this way, oh, I need to defend how it gets said. You need to say it this way, okay, let's say it this way. You need nine bows first, okay. Nine bows. But let's get in the conversation. Let's find a way into the conversation. a lot at risk. I think that's hard for people to acknowledge. And the status quo is always likely to defend itself.

[06:48]

That's how it got there. And we're all here because of the status quo to some degree. But there are those of us that are also here because of the ways in which we've invited the status quo to give up some space. So if you get clear, like, this is the most important thing. Then the little things, like, this is the meta intention. Then the little things, like, squibbling over, like, oh, they want us to sit, like, how dare them? Why don't you care? Win. Win. Keep your eye on what's most important. Don't get caught up in something like, oh, I want nine vows, and you should... you know, highlight our names in gold marker, whatever, go ahead and do it. Because in the meantime, there are many women, men, gender non-conforming folks that are receiving this continuous message of, you know, someone is less than, that is entirely destructive to all of our thinking.

[08:00]

And if they can't quite see it, your role becomes your vow is to help open their eyes to that. And if you're quibbling about how they want it done, then your focus is in the wrong place. So in one of our groups, my name is Dawu Chikhar. Thank you. In one of our groups, we were reading the book, The Awakening Together, Larry Yang. And he talks a lot about East Bay Inventation Center.

[09:05]

And at the end, this didn't come from him, but it came from a group. He said it was primarily white leadership and allies who came up with these suggestions kind of from there. in the group. And one of the suggestions was that to change the mission, the mission of the center itself doesn't have explicitly talk about the importance of supporting diversity and accessibility along those lines. And so we looked at the mission of San Francisco Bend Center, as far as I can tell, it doesn't, it includes just, it includes the word accessible, but I think it's not clear how that word is being used. So, you know, and yeah, and then I was curious, like, well, you know, it doesn't make sense to try to, to actually start there versus starting with things that are more immediate to what we do as students here at Tuscar and the other things that kind of, or yeah, because often I think

[10:18]

when I talk to the leadership, they'll be like, oh yeah, yeah, we want those things, but I'm not sure that there's that much excitement about the idea of revisiting this mission. So yeah, I guess that's just a question you're thinking as to the importance of that or how you would work to that. So you can either escape the plantation or you can try to get slavery abolished. choose? Both. Both. Why not both? Why not both? Because it's the people that escaped the plantation that made it visible that there were human beings that needed to escape the plantation. And so you get caught. tactics.

[11:19]

The idea is to get it done. And certainly structural change is, you know, incredibly important. And you may make the effort towards structural change, but meanwhile, a lot of people are escaping. And that's a good thing, too. And to your point, Inzan, slavery wasn't abolished because Lincoln thought it was a good idea. just financially feasible. It wasn't like somebody like, yay, we're slaves. I don't need to quibble about why I did it, how I did it, just it got done. So their side would win, so the other side wouldn't have so much power, whatever. It got done. No, that's not the right reason, but that's not the right way to abolish slavery, abolish it in this way. We want everybody's heart and mind to change first, and then we'll abolish it.

[12:25]

It might still be here. So you become clear, right? And when you're clear, you're less caught up in kind of yourself along the way. It's like, oh, that's what's important. all of the other things. It would be nice that you could acknowledge it. It would be nice. It would be nice if the Abbots Council could see such a thing, especially given that there's several things about the Abbots Council. It would be nice to feel like, well, that's not even a difficult thing. But who knows? We're human beings. We're caught in conditions, and there's a great deal of momentum involved in why people hold on. Just kind of one finger at a time. Let's peel it back. maybe someone will respond to the structural shift because it feels less personal. And so that's the way to go and to say, oh, what do we each do?

[13:30]

It may somehow feel personal. It's very difficult to tell really why people got less interested in why people are caught and much more interested in how do we have to move. How do we include them? That's just the most important thing. Like, how do I include people in this journey? Because it's not, let's do this so that I can get free. It's like, let's do it so we can all get free. Let's do it so that men do not continue to inhabit a space of domination that then gets them taken down by Me Too issues and that kind of thing that we lose. really wonderful teachers, to poor behavior because we insisted on keeping dominance in place in these subtle ways and not-so-subtle ways. So it really is freedom for all, and sometimes the people that are being free don't necessarily realize it. And that's okay. That's the bodhisattva value. They don't have to be like, yeah, I won't let it go.

[14:32]

Just say, we're going to do this for everyone. Everyone. Just bring them all. and it's a follow-up to both the comments specific to the Adventist Council I'm wondering if you know I've heard find something that we all value you know and I'm wondering if it's karma or compassion I'm struggling with this you were talking about sometimes it needs to be something kind of urgent or something that the people who you're hoping will change value, and if they're not, I don't want to be there. If there may not be an awareness of the devaluing of the suffering, and we're trying to find something that motivates someone to change, that brings us together, do you think that maybe a dharma is something that we could ask?

[15:44]

that that's something that the Addis Council would come together around? It's been tried. Okay. Maybe compassion and suffering? I'm looking for something that is, okay. A really big donor. A really big donor. Right. Really big donor. My other question around this, which I've been wondering about, is the awareness that institutional change takes time And yet there's suffering. I really want to be right now. How can I help the adults to see the urgency of the suffering? Because I feel like that might speak things wrong, because I can't. How can I say, this takes time, to someone who's experiencing it right now? I think when enough people realize their location in it, and you... You experience yourself not as, oh, this is just urgent for you.

[16:48]

And so I'm telling you, I'm the mediator telling you this takes time. And you're like, this is me. My life, my heart, my truth is on the line. When there's enough of you, it will change. Because you will make it urgent. Not in your heads. Right now it's urgent in some people's heads. Maybe really urgent in your head. Maybe it's really painful in your head. But there's some point at which there's a tipping point where people feel like enough. And hopefully we don't get to that. And I think that that's always what we're doing. We're like, oh, do we have to go there? Do we have to go way to the edge? Do we have to sit in the street? Do we have to sit? in and not woo from the zendo or whatever it is, whatever form of protest it is. So there's still enough of us where it's theory, and we feel theoretically upset and theoretically urgent, and then we go about our business.

[18:01]

And when that's not the case anymore, it will shift. That's how it is. even the donors can't really withstand the fact that, you know, they need new students. They need students to be here. They need people to show up and practice. They need to save face, all of the things. That's not, that doesn't mean you, like, go and take everybody down. But how do we reflect back to our loved ones? That's really who they are, like, as leadership, mirror back to them, this is what this is. We bring people into life. This is what this is. This is not a, this is not theory to us. This is not, we wouldn't do something to help the poor black people, help the poor other people. This is wounding us and we can't abide by it.

[19:03]

You can't make that up. So this is not a call to action for anyone. It does have to be your own deepening into your practice that is cutting through that division that somehow says that this is practice and this is the other thing that we're trying to get them to do. For me, it doesn't exist as separate. This is the thing. And so when somebody says to you, like, well, that's not Dharma, I'm like, okay. Tell me what's outside of Dharma. What is outside of it? And for me, that is how I live it to my vow. I don't have a choice about it. I have choice. We always have choice. I have a choice, but it's not one I can abide by. I couldn't be in my own integrity if I wasn't having this. I'd much rather be talking about koans, frankly. How do you think about that? I couldn't be in my integrity, given that I have this voice, this location, this moment.

[20:10]

I have to be what this is. And my desire to rummage around in koans or unpack the heart suture down character by character has to wait, because this is what matters right now. I wanted to share something about the shame and remorse thing. And the locationality of shame. It's one of the few things that they call a negative emotion. Because it doesn't operate, and I want to say this because it's not about shaming people. It's... puts people's attention back on themselves, and that's what I was referring to yesterday, right? It's like shame is about, like, myself.

[21:12]

I'm like, how do I feel? And remorse, I forgot to, well, I know it, but I forgot to say it. It means to bite back, right? It's like to bite back. It's like you want to address it, right? And so if you don't want to bite it back, if you don't want to, like, oh, that thing I did, oh, you know, like, I want to get that back. then it doesn't have any chance of going anywhere that begins to meet the situation. I don't want to say resolve because, yeah, good luck with that. Meet the situation, right? So that you want to meet it. It takes the attention off of oneself and, like, what people think about me and how I look and how that makes me feel. You know, we have a little shape, but we should, like, kind of move on. and decide whether you feel remorseful, meaning do you feel, do you feel moved enough to want to bite it back?

[22:15]

Address that and kind of get a do-over. All right, Jim. You just said that you need people to be in your seats here. You need to meet us here. Yeah, we do. I've got a turn. I'm really struggling. I mean, we're talking about the internal politics of Tausabara specifically and the Buddhist community. I guess within the United States in general. And I think that there's also an implication that for some reason or other, we're not attracting a diversity of people to this community. Is that right?

[23:19]

Well, I don't think that's right. I think they're attracted and then they go away. And then they go away. Yeah, they go away. Because nobody wants to swim in poison water. It occurs to me that if we wanted to send a message to the Abbots, I just have to say, I've got to expand from the internal to the external. We've got, on November 6th, we've got, there's a good dozen races out there on November 6th with open Nazis. Open, wide open. They're on the platform of white supremacy. The The Christian right wants to own every woman's body in this room. That's just it. And they're going to take Roe v. Wade down someday, unless we're pushed back. We want to send a message to the Adams Council. How about half of the people who are going to do the first practice pull out and fan out across the country and go...

[24:30]

put their energies into political action in some race somewhere, which will be over on November 7th. But just all of a sudden you just go, and you go out there representing American Buddhists, and you let it know. You just go, okay, this is who I am, this is where I'm from, and this is what I'm going back to, but right now this is what we're doing collectively, in a small way. That would send a message. Sure would. More than a petition would. Sure would. Empty our seats. Just do it. No argument from here. I mean, I don't even know how many people are sitting in their absentee ballots while they're sitting. I mean, I don't know. I've never asked. I'm curious how many people vote. And I'm just saying, you know, if you look into what's going on, it is... It is terrifying.

[25:31]

It's an abomination what's happening. And it does, in a certain way, put what we're talking about into a different kind of perspective. I do not need to do service and give any disrespect whatsoever about what our intentions are here. But between now and November 6th, there is something of far greater importance. And we could, as a group, make a difference. We could. Part of the way that this... The system works as to, like my co-author says, to domesticate us. Pardon me? To domesticate us. So we're all domesticated. We feel like if we just tend to our little homes, it'll all be okay. We kind of like, you know, snore out until enough of us wake up. And we go, oh, actually, you know, there is real consequence to just hoping that we'll all resolve itself. being in disbelief that it's happening until it is just too late to save those women's bodies, until we're like living in Handmaiden's Tale.

[26:37]

This is the prequel. We're in the prequel. And we're all just, you know, raking sand. It's not that there's not a place for raking sand. There is, and I advocate for it. But we also have to know when to say, okay. I have to leave this seat, because the point of the seat is not to stay on the seat. Yes. That is not the point. It'll be there when you get back. It'll be there when we get back. Yeah. That's right. And if we mistake that, like, oh, this is what it's for, we become enamored of the seat, then we have lost track of what it is about. It is... The whole purpose of us developing our practice is to be useful in the world, to be useful. Saving all beings. Saving all beings. Thank you. Um, Jess, she here.

[27:50]

Um, Yeah, thank you for this conversation. It's really inspiring and the core of, you know, I'm feeling just this, yeah, real, yeah, I'm feeling gratitude for practice, gratitude that we're all in here together right now. And I think it's kind of wrapped up in everything you're saying, you know, responding to the cries. And when you said, having a vow to awaken people, or having a vow to help, I see just suffering, say, in my own family. And I have this, like, oh, well, let me tell you what's really helped me. You know? You should start living your life this way.

[28:52]

You should go to this place. You should try doing this every morning. I'm so grateful that I have some sort of refuge in this practice. But realizing why it's important is because it's coming from that place. It didn't make me do it. It arose. So how to respond when you see something... I mean, my mind is like, I'm just there, it listens, it's your presence, it's listening, you know, has been helpful to me, but, yeah, when you hear a cry and wanting to respond, is there a way to, yeah, what do you do? I think I have, I spent my... some time like these Buddhists gonna get off their seat.

[29:55]

And so actually leaning into the cry, doing the direct action work and trying to understand more about what this is. and find balance in it every day, right? Is it balance between, like, this is horrific, and I can't do everything, what can I do? What can I do? Find myself there. With enough dedication and enough commitment that I don't feel like I'm not looking over my shit. So I'm... Sort of like leaning into it enough that you don't have any room to be looking over your shoulder wondering, like, should you be someplace else or doing something else? So I feel my lean in so strongly that now I can just trust that other people are taking care of and showing up in places that I can't be and that we all are doing our lean in.

[31:05]

Because if I lean in and then I'm looking around and I want to do everything, then I'm tipping into arrogance, right? Like somehow it's all, I need to do it all. And then I'm not caring for this being, right? And this being matters too, because this being is not separate from the rest of the beings. So I have to listen to these cries too. But the discernment is, am I listening to these cries that are fabricated by need for safety, comfort, maintain my privilege, my wealth, my position, my vocation, or am I listening to real cries? And so it's like I can come up with all the reasons why I can't do something, why we can't change the tissue, why we can't read the nationwide language. Really? Really? Who is that? Who is that? We know.

[32:05]

They know. Y'all know. That's why we're in this friction. That's why we're in this room together. There's more people in the room than we used to be in the room because we're making our way. And I trust that. We're making our way. And my job is to blow on the... You know, not set fire to things, but just blow on the coals. Blow on the... And when places are cooler, then I actually am more willing to say, oh, no, there's good coals here. That's just blown off. Because institutions are funny things. There's no one that you can rest on. You can't say, oh, food did it, or somebody did it. They're weird beings. This is the nature of creating beings that have no true accountability. and have no true feeling. The institution doesn't feel for any of us. So you have to relate to these human beings that have love in their hearts and that are defending something.

[33:13]

Because we all do horrible things in the name of institutions. We all do horrible things in the name of our gods and institutions that become our gods. We will protect our gods at great cost to self and others. And so when we... hold that back and retake on responsibility as just this human being, not to an institution. Can I abide by myself? Can I look myself in the mirror? Which is why I'm untethered to any institutions, because I don't want the seduction of somehow the commitment to the institution is greater than the commitment to Just means. So that's a position of great privilege and a lot of power and also a lot of danger, you know, when it comes down to it.

[34:14]

It could come down to it. We'll have to do that. But that's a choice that I make, is to stay. It's sort of quite amazing. We can get real upset, but the fact that I'm here at all, you have to know, is the institution. in some ways. And so we also sort of create opportunities to say the things that we need to say that we can't really say ourselves. And so I'm kind of like a Trojan horse that the institution itself is allowing. So it's tricky. It's like a little house of mirrors. It's like, oh, I wouldn't be here if they were really against it. I didn't sneak in. We'll go over there. I'm here a couple of years, a few years now, probably four times now. And the number of people sitting here has grown. So it feels glacially slow. We know it's right.

[35:18]

You know, when I say we are in the institutions, we know it's right. We know the right thing. It's very hard to get out of the momentum of habit. Right, and the habit of protecting, and the habit of status quo. And what will happen, you know, if you start, you know, then what will you ask for? You know, a gender non-conforming list of lineage. And then people start getting freaked out because they carry it to the next. Conversation with someone. The big scare is that when you've colluded in or been a part of, you become aware of a system that has that much of a history of pain, you're pretty sure that should the other people get the upper hand, they're going to do the same thing to you. That is a primal fear. So part of our work is for somebody like me to be embodied as me and make it clear, like, I have no interest in that. I have no interest in doing unto you what has been done unto me.

[36:27]

And it makes sense. I would be afraid if I was in that position. I'd be like, oh, you're going to get me now. As soon as I open the cage, you're going to get me and shove me right in that cage. And so that makes sense, right? And this is our practices. We can unpack that. We can go, oh, well, that makes sense. I would be scared for my life. If I had kept someone in a cage, even if a nice cage, really nice cage, all their lives, and their parents, I would be afraid. Now I know better. Now I realize that's not a good idea. What was my father, grandfather, great-great-grandfather thinking? This is not a good idea. But what happens if I open it? And now I'm stuck between the protection of this body and what I know is the right thing. I think we're caught somewhere right about there right now. We're caught between the notion that this is really between self-preservation and doing what's right and hoping that the tables don't turn.

[37:37]

I get that. I'd be free to. the process of unpacking how the balance of domination, privilege, how that might look in the sense of education and exploring a fair relationship with instances. Yeah, just how that might look. You have groups, you could do that. There are people that are doing just that. You know, there's no magic formula. It doesn't work like that.

[38:39]

It's just, there's not a magic formula. It's just like you unpack anything. Someone could say, oh, well, you pull this string first. No, no, you should cut the paper. You should take the tape off little by little. You just start, take, grab a hold of it, something, and pull on it. Pull on it. Just pull. And it starts to unravel. The thing is that you'll find that the unraveling is tied to everything else. And that's what's frightening, is that it will undo so much of what we have come to know and feel our safe sense of safety and comfort from. And so you kind of hold your breath and pull. I wish there was a nice, perfect path. Just pull. Pull something. Pull. Keep pulling. Know that it will be painful. Know that there will be a cost. There will be a cost. It will be very costly. It didn't stay this way because it's not costly to try to undo it.

[39:42]

Many people that have tried to undo it have paid a cost. And it signals to everyone else, don't you dare. So you need enough people pulling together. begin to turn things. But if you're looking for, like, this will happen in some way that is nice and neat, it will be without pain, there will be no spillage, you won't make mistakes, and there will be no cost. Quite impressive, not keep itself alive and well and thriving. in all of our beating hearts and blood without having certified, testified that there would be great cost at unraveling it. That's how it stays in place.

[40:44]

It's not that our parents and grandparents were horrible people, or stupid people even. There is a cost, and the structure is designed to remind you at every turn, if you step outside the line, that there will be a cost. And if you feel fear about it, you are really, really smart. Because that's how it works. And we use our rational mind to go like, oh, I'm not... You want to make it, you should be afraid. You all have permission to be afraid. Be really afraid. And do it anyway. Because your lives, right, your thriving lives depends on it. And if you don't feel that yet, well, then put your nose to the grind and do the work you need to do so that you can feel that. Because it's only those of us that are lacking feeling. in some very important way that are not just living that this is what is happening.

[41:51]

And if you're not feeling that, it's because you weren't meant to. It's very carefully constructed and recreates itself over and over again. I don't know, don't feel that, don't notice that, don't see that, don't take that on as yours. This is why I do this here in these communities. I could run around and try to do race trainings or whatever in corporations. I'm not interested in that because they don't have the foundation of practice that turns them back when I walk away and stop running my mouth, that the foundation of practice that goes, oh. In the same way that you don't need an abbot or a teacher or a tonto with you all the time, your practice just unfolds. There it is. You're sweeping. You're changing a bed. You're cleaning a toilet. You are cutting carrots and your practice is like... So when it's not divorced from this truth also, that's what will happen.

[42:59]

Then there's no turning back. Damn carrots. Damn carrots. Patriarchy. Damn racism. Right there in the carrots, it'll be in the onions, it'll be in the soup, it'll be in the streams, in the baths, it'll be everywhere. And you'll appreciate that as much as you appreciate the joy and the relief from the heat. It all comes together. It isn't to be somehow separate and like, I could just stack this over here and I'll only deal with that. Ideally, you will also appreciate the moments of just being able to relax into an experience of your own humanity that comes from having been willing to touch the pain of the loss that is historic.

[44:01]

And you're like, whoa, where was I before this? Where was I? What the hell? How did I not notice this? How did I get to 30? 25, 40, 50, not know this was happening, not feel this, not just be like over it. And you feel that pain and it is the entryway into your heart. I'm just grateful. Thank you. Thank you that it started today. Thank you that I touched it today. Damn the other 40 years. But thank you that I touched it today. And that's how our practice works. And it gives that opportunity so that we're not, we don't spend our time renegotiating all of the past that we did not enter into experience of kindness with ourselves.

[45:06]

We're just grateful for the kindness that has shown up before us. Thank you. We have a little more than five minutes. I also have a question. My name is Jo, and I use she, her pronouns. And I guess as you're talking, I'm thinking... about a couple things. One part that keeps coming up is this kind of like, yeah, this kind of going back and forth between feeling really hopeful and really hopeless and feeling. And it's kind of connected to feeling like there's two different camps of of people and maybe like believers and just feeling like there's these people with like the right intention and maybe even like the right action and feeling like really hopeful.

[46:20]

Like, oh, there's this group and like we, you know, like we care, like we're trying. And then like maybe even those same people are in the other group of like, oh, we're not trying and we don't care. And like you said, like there is this incentive to not act because it's uncomfortable and scary. And so just, yeah, I just feel like I'm racing back and forth between those. Patterson. Yeah, I wouldn't focus on the people that don't care. Fortify yourself with the people that are like low-hanging fruit. And like... really get strong there, the loss of mental energy, you know, to the people that don't care, trying to figure them out. That's part of the distraction, right? It's sort of like on your cushion, your zazen.

[47:21]

It's like you're spending the time worrying about when you were not present, and then you spend your time and energy. Why wasn't I present? I really went off really far there. I couldn't have really been an aunt present. I mean, of course, you're missing being present. And so just bring your energy back. It's very hard for us to submit to that as a possible path. It's so exciting to be kvetching about the ways in which it's not working. And if you have some hope, my goodness, just invest in that hope. Invest in the places in which there's love, there's thriving. And when the time arises, you'll know that it's time for us to go deal with that parched earth over there and water that space and start to soften. But if you're trying to do it from the place in which you still feel shaky,

[48:24]

when the wind blows hard and it won't blow hard, it will just get knocked right off. So we have to steady ourselves. That was the question yesterday. The gentleman is not here. That's South Asian man. This is the magic of the inner and outer together. Because we need to be solid. because the energy, the blowback, will be very, very strong, and it's very certain of itself. Very certain. That's not something you need to pay attention to. That's not the Dharma, whatever the excuses are. And so we have to be fortified in our own truth, and really stand in that with a sense of not a brittle truth, where something comes at and you just fall apart.

[49:27]

But a kind of, but a resilient, like, okay, yeah, I hear you, but steady, right back. Just like sasen, right? You know, when your sasen is like very brittle, right? In the moment that you feel like you're kind of losing it, you just, everything falls apart. You can't come back again. And then you blow the other 38 minutes. Right? And you want to And it takes more time than you want it to, but then it's there, right? And then the falling off is not where your attention goes. You don't leave your attention there. You're just like, if all happens, the people that are not ready yet, they're going to be there. There's going to be plenty of them. You just wouldn't invest there. We have a sort of odd thing of like, it's a zero sum game, right? Do we get everyone or it's not really helpful? Thank you for listening to this podcast offered by the San Francisco Zen Center.

[50:34]

Our Dharma Talks are offered free of charge, and this is made possible by the donations we receive. Your financial support helps us to continue to offer the Dharma. For more information, visit sfcc.org and click Giving.

[50:49]

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