Good morning, everyone. Thank you for coming to our Dharma talk today. Today's talk will be offered by Charlie Bacorni, a Dharma heir of Tenshin Reb Anderson, teacher at the Institute of Buddhist Studies and a head priest of the Stone Creek Zen Center. So we'll begin our talk today with the opening chant. Please chant along with me. Unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect dharma is rarely met with even a hundred thousand million galpas, having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words.

[03:36]

Good morning. Thank you to Jiryu and Abbas Fu. for the invitation to speak here. Today, I want to continue a theme from the last few Sunday talks and bring up some of the ways of opening, and especially in relation to widespread protests against racial injustice. So what is the awakened embrace of this moment? A few weeks ago, I gave a talk online through San Francisco Zen Center, through the city center. And one thing I talked about was loving this world. And in the questions and comments afterwards, there was a question from a person who I'm thinking identifies as a person of color.

[04:51]

And the question was, how do I love the world when there are people that hate me and want to harm me? simply because of the way I look. And at that time, I felt humbled by this question and the sincerity of the question. And I continue to feel humbled by it and humbled by the depth of suffering we are facing in this world. And I feel invited by this question and challenged by the suffering, not to lessen but to deepen this humility. And so I hear this question asking in another way, what is the awakened embrace of this world, this moment? I also hear it asking, how does this practice live on the ground?

[05:57]

or on the street where a police officer's knee is down into the neck of a fellow human being. I wanna bring up a practice called tonglen and turn it in relation to zazen and looking at racial injustice. Tonglen is an embodied compassion practice that's important in traditions of Tibetan Buddhism. Tong means sending out or giving, and Len means receiving or taking. And so one of the key slogans of my training is sending and taking should be practiced alternately. These two should ride the breath. So the basic practice is breathing in, suffering. So this is receiving, taking. And breathing out, awakening, liberation.

[07:00]

It's sending, sending out or giving. And so this kind of flips our normal inclinations. You know, move away from pain. Keep the good stuff. And so in this practice, our body, our heart, and our mind become a locus of transformation. the breath is a medium of relationality so we breathe in the in-breath is this embodiment of receptivity of opening so we breathe in the practice of receiving is welcoming what's here welcoming suffering Opening to the suffering we see, we hear, taste, smell, touch, feel.

[08:01]

Opening and opening more and opening fully. Opening our hearts to suffering. Opening our faces. Opening our whole body. Opening our whole being to the pain. to hurt, to distress. So this is the breathing in, the receiving, being touched, deep listening. And if there are defenses, feel them. Breathe them into. If there's insulation, feel that. If there's avoidance or resistance or denial, It's all part of this suffering that we're breathing in. Welcoming. Feeling fully. And allowing.

[09:05]

Whatever form of grasping we encounter, breathe it in. And we all breathe out. And so the out-breath is this embodiment of giving back. of flowing out of letting what is inside go forth even if we seem to have no awakening or liberation or joy to offer we can offer our prayers we can send out kindness warmth friendliness love spaciousness peace and this is also a spirit of dedication in our practice in bodhisattva practice and in our ritual practice giving away all the virtues of our practice and the out breath is made up of the in-breath after it's been turned and transformed in the body so that we're alive

[10:20]

manifesting, showing up, expressing ourselves, taking a stand or taking a seat, responding. We have a face. We have skin. We have the way our skin appears. And we're taking up space. We're touching the world and we're impacting others. And here too, if there are defenses, to feel them. If there's holding back, holding down, holding in, we breathe out through it. If there's tightness or something, wanting to keep it for ourselves, breathe through it. We make an offering. We give ourselves to this moment. We give ourselves to the world. completely give.

[11:21]

So this is wholeheartedly meeting suffering, and then making an offering of ease, of conviction, of courage, sanity, willingness to fully be in the world. In our Soto Zen tradition, Dogen echoes a kind of Tonglen, I feel, when he invokes jijuyu zanma. So ji is self, jyu is receive, yu is employ, and zanma is samadhi or absorption or wholeheartedness. So we could say this is the self-receiving and employing samadhi. Breathing in. We receive the self. We receive this moment. We receive this life.

[12:25]

And breathing out, we employ this self. We engage this moment. We offer this life. We make ourselves useful. And I also hear a resonance with Tong Lin when Dovin says, let all things come and rest in your heart. Let your heart go out and rest in all things. And there's also an image of Tabun, an image of a Avalokitesvara with a thousand arms. And on each of her hands, there's an eye. So this is an image of sending and receiving. Eyes are open, sensitive, receiving. Hands are reaching out, sending, giving, offering. So eyes breathing, hands breathing out.

[13:28]

And we have teachings in the Zen tradition on these hands and eyes of great compassion, some koans. And the final phrase of one of these is, throughout the body is hands and eyes. Or another translation, the whole body, is just hands and eyes so this body is all hands and eyes this life is nothing but taking and sending receiving and giving and the the opening to suffering does not mean we know it or understand it Even if we've not had experienced it, we can breathe it in. We can acknowledge it. We open our hearts. And we allow it to touch us and allow it to connect us. So riding a breath. And then interweaves it can intercede with our own suffering and breathing in the suffering of others.

[14:35]

Open heartedness. And also engaging the imagination, engaging inquiry. and developing a capacity for connection. So we can open to the suffering of confinement and alienation of our racial conditioning and all the ways this conditioning is elaborated, acted out, embedded in systems and structures of racism or racial inequality. And so as a white person in this country, I feel this includes opening to suffering with white privilege, white fragility or white guilt, white out-of-touchness. And if we look carefully, something we've learned, a message we've received, often not explicitly, but a belief or

[15:47]

pervasive conditioning that white people matter more and other people matter less. So I have the privileges that come with being a white man. And I'm speaking from a privileged seat as the invited speaker of the day. So there's a lot of privilege right here to acknowledge. and you know to breathe in and also to breathe up to employ and to give away so we can we can we can bring up our privilege and point it out and this can be a way of giving away privilege it can also be a way of utilizing privilege for the sake of liberation And also part of how privilege works is an array of defenses.

[16:54]

Those of us who are white are usually equipped with various ways of deflecting our awareness, deflecting our conversations, deflecting our interactions away from looking at our awareness and how it works. For Black people, for people of color, racial conditioning can work in very different ways. So while part of white privilege is turning away from being aware of this ubiquitous racial aspect of our life, I've heard people of color say that it's actually can be a matter of self-protection to be very aware of race. can also just be unavoidable and for some people of color this can become a nearly constant source of stress a daily wearing down and so for those of us who are white breathing in this racialized suffering of people of color is part of this process

[18:14]

So part of our racial conditioning as white people is to be more or less insulated from this suffering. So opening our hearts, educating ourselves, questioning our ideas of ourselves. And however we're situated within racialization, engaging is practice of breathing in, opening to the suffering. the pain, the harm, the injustice, and breathing out, sending awakening, freedom, justice. And starting with this person and opening to others. And meeting the challenges to this and not trimming away when it's hard. and when it hurts like breathing through some breathing in and opening to the suffering of george floyd as he was killed opening to the suffering of his loved ones including his children opening to how this killing resonates

[19:46]

with the killing of Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor and so many others, and breathing in the pain of how these events are not apart from the dehumanizing violence of white people in power throughout the history of this country, from slavery to lynching to police brutality and mass incarceration. And opening to the grief and rage and exhaustion of being subjected to this still unfolding history of violence and oppression. And so breathing in and out. And each breath is a gift and each breath is a gate.

[20:47]

As he was being killed, George Floyd said, I can't breathe, repeatedly. As he was being killed, Eric Garner said, I can't breathe, repeatedly. So breathing in and opening to this cry of I can't breathe and breathing out. What do we give? What do we offer? Zenju Earthland Manuel said, come down here on this earth and breathe for those gasping for air. So we release insulation and separation and defensiveness and objectification. So this real opening is vulnerable. and humble.

[21:53]

So then this is not pity. Pity is separating. Pity is keeping ourselves at least a little bit apart or above or beyond. And compassion is totally intimate, open, and humble. Come down here on this earth. And we send out liberation. We send out awakening, waking up in our collective suffering together, waking up in our lives together. It's not an escape or numbness or denial or being left alone. It's being in it. It's waking up in it. And if we do feel threatened or afraid or overwhelmed in this, then breathe in that fear.

[22:55]

Breathe in the overwhelm. Breathe in the fullness. We might worry if we totally open to the pain and suffering and difficulties of the world. that will somehow absorb all of it like a big sponge and be hopefully or helplessly mired in pain disease and distress and so in this breathing we just open to the suffering we don't hold it we don't contain it we don't grasp it the breathing in is actually bottomless The lungs fill up with air, but that's not where the breath stops. Through opening, we can come to appreciate the vast capacity of our heart, of our being.

[23:59]

This is a bodhisattva practice, and it's based on, and it affirms, and it actualizes how our heart is a bodhisattva heart. a heart of boundless compassion. This heart can open boundlessly. And this breathing of Tonglen is about transformation, breathing in and breathing out. In the Xigong Buddhist fire ritual, The practitioner identifies with fire as a force of transformation. So in the ritual, they make a fire and there's a visualization of the fire as a Buddha or Bodhisattva, an embodiment of wisdom and compassion. And when this is vivid, when there's this fire that's vividly a Buddha, vividly embodying wisdom and compassion, you then identify yourself with the fire.

[25:09]

You become the fire. You become these transformative flames. The fire burns bright with a willingness to take it all in and allowing it to change and giving it all away, welcoming suffering, pain, obstruction, tightness, fear, and letting it all burn. and offering uh warmth and illumination breathing out light spaciousness awakening it's the whole body is just hands and eyes sending and receiving opening and responding a breath is a a living tangible demonstration of our non-separation in any moment.

[26:15]

Our actual intimacy with the world and each other is right here in each breath, in and out. This breathing is not something we do. We ride the breath. This is about living non-separation. Sending and receiving are not really two separate things. Breathing in and out are not two separate things. Hands and eyes of great compassion are not two separate things. It's one circle of breath, one circulation of life and compassion and relationship. We say the emptiness of the three wheels, giver, receiver, and gift. it's always one whole meeting the whole of what we are is receptivity the whole of what we are is manifestation one whole meeting when receiving is deep

[27:39]

and dynamic, sending is deep and dynamic. So we can engage inhalation and exhalation as flows of dynamic inquiry into the fullness of our life and our life with each other and all beings. As a white person, I am looking for ways to breathe in the suffering of racial conditioning and open to and challenge white superiority, white privilege, white inaction and passivity, all which are intertwined. And breathing in how this racial conditioning impacts others. So this racial conditioning impacts all of us, but, you know, in very different ways.

[28:48]

The structures and the systems that arise from this conditioning work against Black people and in various ways against all people of color and favor or benefit White people. And White people created basically control and maintain these structures and systems and in large part, or in some ways, live in denial of this. And I think, and maybe across the board, do not take responsibility for it. And so we are impacted in very different ways. And also it's all I would say we're all woven together in one fabric of racial conditioning. And so when we're breathing in, we're breathing in, we cannot just breathe in our own suffering in isolation.

[29:52]

We can't just breathe in the suffering of someone else in isolation. It's all woven together. White privilege is woven together in one fabric with police killings of Black people. privilege and oppression are woven together. How we are woven in is not something we chose or could control. We didn't make this fabric. We are made of it. It's part of how we come to be. Our identities, ourselves, our views, our thinking, our perceptions are shaped and formed. through and of this fabric and the fundamental delusion of separation is woven deeply into this fabric the fabric's a painful collective embodiment of belief in separation and a painful collective embodiment of greed hate and delusion angel kyoto williams says you cannot possibly understand the nature of your mind

[31:05]

without understanding the nature of the collective mind. And in this culture, the nature of the collective mind is oppression, white supremacy, and patriarchy. This is what we are all born into. As we are part of this fabric or collective mind, we can be part of maintaining it or forming it. So we can maintain a fabric of suffering, a fabric of, you know, this idea of white superiority, participating, consciously or not, in a set of agreements, assumptions and practices which preserve white privilege. Some of us do not see or do not feel how we're woven into this. And maybe many of us do not fully see or fully feel how we're woven into this.

[32:10]

And as long as we don't see it and feel it, we won't be able to change it. We won't address it. This is a complex fabric. It's not just black and white, you know, all the various lineages of racism and domination. that have unfolded in this country or woven in. Class, gender, sexuality, nationality, ability, interweave with, in or as the fabric as well. Multiple intertwining systems of power and domination. And we're working with amazingly productive categories of humanity that are deeply interwoven into the history of this country and into ourselves and the complex, intersecting and multileveled, and that unfold into profound suffering.

[33:32]

suffering and oppression that is a real right now we cannot actually get out of this fabric because it's in us but how it's in us is how we have agency Until we fully own how we are part of this fabric, we cannot fully participate in transforming it. So this is like fully breathing in and then fully breathing out. Those who are oppressed within the fabric, who have been harmed or held down, held back, diminished, confined, They have long worked as parts of the fabric to liberate the whole fabric.

[34:38]

Well, those who benefit from it generally have not. The call to affirm Black because this culture is overflowing with affirmations however veiled or denied they may be that black lives don't matter that white lives matter more and when we come down to earth when we come down to the ground and clearly observe how black people and people of color are being treated we don't see all lives matter all lives matter is a it's a true principle But it's not what we're doing. It's not what we're collectively living in this country. So can we just breathe in? Black Lives Matter.

[35:42]

Without reaching for some way to qualify it or soften it or abstract it or turn it over. Black Lives Matter is a call for a transformation. It's about actualizing equality and justice. Practice calls us to engage and liberate the entire fabric. Become intimate with this fabric, appreciate how it works through us and beyond us, and through the fabric, actualize hands and eyes of great compassion. And this can start with opening to the injustice of the killing of George Floyd, which was undeniable, was recorded. And, you know, it can open to addressing police brutality, which is vital and necessary.

[36:48]

And it can open to the vast extent of structural dehumanization that's happening in this country, where there's a lack of equality, in education health care housing political representation the justice system wealth and so on employment so breathing in injustice and opening deeply to the extent of the injustice and then breathing out uh this transformation transformation of the whole fabric uh a broader deeper vision of justice breathing out the collective moral courage we will need to transform this and breathing out the collective stamina and determination and love we will need to transform it

[38:02]

And I want to place all this in the practice of Tonglen, of breathing and suffering and breathing out awakening. Because, you know, sometimes this becomes people hear this kind of stuff as being about being politically correct or some kind of social coercion or feeling guilty. You know, getting caught in guilt. or getting caught in seeking to relieve guilt or exonerate ourselves of guilt these are uh icds instead so this is um it's and it's not about a posture or a display we engage and make efforts about this from a sense of connection breathing in and breathing out genuine respect and love and caring and not wanting to cause harm.

[39:10]

And engage our deep appreciation of our shared humanity and how everything we do has an impact. So, you know, what is transformative? Being right is not what we need. Being right can just be a way to insulate ourselves. This is about change. And there's no simple way through. In the meantime, we just don't get to be pure or harmless. It's actually not a possibility in the setup right now. Observing eight minutes and 46 seconds of silence is... It doesn't need to be just a display. It can be Tonglen. It can be opening and offering, receiving and sending without going to a protest.

[40:17]

We can just fully feel the length of eight minutes and 46 seconds as a way of breathing in the killing of George Floyd. James Baldwin. said that to be black in this country and to be relatively conscious is to be in a rage almost all the time. So I think we can all breathe that in. And those of us who are white can ask as meditators devoted to awareness, as aspiring bodhisattvas, What is it to be white in this country and relatively conscious? How does that really feel? So this is opening to the fabric. And, you know, it might not start with rage, but it could open to rage.

[41:22]

It can involve a nearly constant discomfort. Giving up, trying to feel good. Keep coming down to earth. being humbled as we face the suffering of our racial conditioning uh deeply questioning and challenging our innocence our and our self-deception and how they work to perpetuate our nightmare And it is also waking up and opening to ways to move forward into liberation together. And being humbled is different than being humiliated.

[42:26]

Being humiliated can be an injury to our dignity and self-respect, while being humbled is a function of our dignity. a function of our self-respect. It's how our dignity actually lives on the earth, grounded and opening to larger possibilities of the heart and called forth through courage and inquiry. And our real dignity is not hierarchical. There's no higher or lower or mattering more or less. Our real self-worth is not quantifiable. It's a total bottomless equality of how each of us is an ungraspable infinity of relatedness. We can only find the fullness of our life and the true depths of our hearts down here on the earth.

[43:30]

So I wanted to come back to the question, how do I love the world for people that hate me and want to harm me simply because of the way I look? So how do we open to these depths of suffering? And part of this, part of our support here is faith in our awakened nature, trusting in the already liberated world. unboundedness of our bodhisattva heart you're nourished and supported by true nature or by ultimate truth and tonglen uh can sound uh heroic but i i would like to offer that we're we're made for this this is not just for heroes this is for all of us the whole body is just hands and eyes This receiving and sending is the heart's breathing.

[44:42]

Or the breathing of our true nature. Or our whole being. Receiving the self and employing the self. The breathing of loving the world. Becoming a great fire. How do we love this world? And what is this love? I don't see this love as a feeling or as a thing, a static anything. But a dynamic love of fierce devotion to this world. A love grounded in conviction that we are all equally and totally children of this world, and a love that challenges any claim that some matter more or less, or that some belong in this world while others do not.

[45:51]

This is a love of the world that is devotion to justice. A love seeking to actualize love in a world that is not loving. a love that demands change, a love of the world that breathes in suffering and breathes out justice, that meets suffering and actualizes awakening. And it's an engaged, energetic embrace. This world, this life, This person, this time, this pandemic, systemic racism, other forms of injustice, this is exactly the world we love.

[46:56]

And through this love, with this devotion, we can honor and work towards actualizing or truly living our shared humanity. and opening to suffering and pain breathing in greed hate and delusion these are essential this is essential for uh living love not turning away from love if we can open into this pain as we open to this discomfort and love through it we can actualize awakening together Sending and receiving need to ride everything we do. Zenju in a poem has a phrase, breathe out loud. Breathe out loud, receive out loud, send out loud.

[47:58]

This is our vow. And the sixth way to respond. to show up, to serve, to be of use. My eight-year-old son said he was feeling confused. And my partner said, well, how would you draw that? And he thought for a moment, he said, it's like someone coming to a stop sign, but stop isn't written on the sign. So it's not clear how to respond, how to be useful, what to do. We can look, you know, what do I usually do? And wonder, like, is that what's called for here? Without it being clear, we need to act. Do we move forward or move backward? Do we listen or do we speak up?

[49:02]

Do we lead or do we follow? and like yes we breathe in and we breathe out and we keep asking and uh and not give up uh to not stop breathing in like this and not stop breathing out like this and not stop inquiring into how we make this breathing real into how we make it live so this love needs to live in the world it's a love that is responsive action may we breathe and stand and act with conviction in our shared humanity uh with conviction in the

[50:04]

ungraspable irreplaceability of each human life this is a core truth for us universal buddha nature may we be humbled before this truth and not turn away from the challenges of the struggles of making it real and may we together with all beings summon and embody the courage determination their wisdom and the compassion to transform the immense suffering arising from and through the fabric of racial conditioning thank you very much Chant along the closing verse.

[51:11]

May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way. Beings are numberless. I vow to save them. Delusions are inexhaustible. I vow to end them. Dharma gates are boundless. I vow to enter them. Buddha's way is unsurpassable. I vow to become it. Before. opening the floor to questions. I'd like to invite everyone to look at the chat box where I've put a link to make a donation if you feel able today to San Francisco Zen Center to support these programs.

[52:23]

We do rely on the donations and appreciate your contributions. So Charlie will be taking some questions or comments if you'd like to offer your question, please raise your hand digitally. You should be able to find a way to do so on your device, perhaps by clicking more, and you see a raise hand button. I wanted to let everyone know that we have started Zen Center posting the talk videos along with the question and answer. So the questions today will be recorded. and post it online. If you'd like to not be recorded in your question, please just submit the question over the chat. You can type your question in the chat if you want to and not be recorded. Otherwise, please go ahead and raise your hand and we'll bring you on. Thank you. Terry, go ahead.

[54:04]

This isn't really a question, I don't think, but a response to your talk, which moved me deeply. And I am very grateful to every... all teachings that explicitly connect us to what's going on in the world right now in this incredible time we're living through. And I'm particularly grateful for this talk because during it, I saw some of my interactions with African-Americans. in a different way. And these were experiences that were important. They actually were in my work at theater.

[55:16]

But I was not open to their suffering. I simply wasn't. We were supposed to be equals, and I thought I'm treating you as an equal, and that's that, you know? If you want to be treated differently, how dare you really violate this idea that we're equals? And so I just want to express my appreciation for what I experienced while you were... speaking. And I have to say that I cherish the fact that I can write things down. Dharma talk, which of course I can't when I'm there in person. So thank you so much, Charlotte. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much for that.

[56:51]

I don't know if this is the right place or if you're the right person, but the question that I'm dealing with that came up is I have heard a lot of black people say they're tired of white women's tears. And I totally get it. We have not done our white women, I can't speak for myself, have not done our due diligence in that. And black people have been their entire lives and generations dealing with racism 24-7. They don't get to turn it off like we do as white privileged people. And I find like in deep grief about their suffering. And I don't want to bring it forward to their space.

[57:59]

Do I just do this in private? Where do I... And I know I'm not the only one. How do I... You know, I feel like a black person should be answering this question, but it just, here we are. How do I grapple with this? Well, I think there's really important pieces of this process and this work and this breathing in and this feeling that we should do with other white people. And it just, you know... I mean, you know, there might be some black people or some people of color that would be willing to be with us for this. But, you know, it's not something that I think, you know, they don't need to do this. I think there's some stuff we need to do, white people need to do with white people, not as an exclusionary thing, but just as a kind of, it's just a kind of skillful means, you know.

[59:06]

And I think the same is true for people of color, you know, that there's certain things that's really just, it just works better for them to process certain things with other people of color. And, or even have, you know, or even like, you know, there's sitting groups, you know, or retreats just for people of color, which is just like, it allows for a vulnerability and a relaxing that can happen otherwise. And so right now, With the depth of our racial conditioning, sometimes actually separating is part of how we're going to learn through it and resolve it. So it's not all about coming together. That can't be the only thing that's happening. But I think that's where it's all ultimately, I think, could go, is that we actually are waking up together. Does that speak to your question?

[60:06]

Yes. And I don't want to bring that to a Black space, and they don't want it. I just find myself in deep. I'm an extremely sensitive person, so I feel a lot, and I feel all of that suffering and pain. Yeah. Yeah. So I think time is actually great practice. Thank you. Thank you. Henry? Hi. Good morning. Morning. You can hear me okay? Yes. Good. Currently, there's a discussion in the LGBT community about whether to add two more colors of stripes on the P flag.

[61:11]

I think maybe a black one and a brown one. And so there's discussion whether does the rainbow flag already includes them or is the rainbow flag should be more kind of like what you say, the eye of the pulse of what's going on in the community and acknowledge the... the civil unrest and the racism and the oppression with certain groups of people, even in the LGBT community. Because even in the LGBT community, you have people of color that don't feel comfortable going into bars because sometimes there is racism in the bars and it's not addressed. So we have a community LGBT community LGBT community that sometimes even within that group were separated and it's never addressed. So I don't know, what's your thoughts? Should the rainbow flag just be the way it is because it's everybody or do you think it should be added or what should thoughts or questions should be considered about whether to do this or not?

[62:25]

I guess I do like I would like, you know, I guess my hope is that we find ways to really breathe in the suffering that we're meeting in each other and to breathe out awakening, breathe out a liberation. And when it comes to something like this, you know, engage in conversations. And there's no... I don't think there is a right answer. But I think the more we can have an open-hearted meeting in the midst of these kind of conversations, I tend to trust that is leading to something that will be a more effective expression.

[63:27]

I think there's a really important point is sometimes we need to focus on one issue. We can't kind of have all the issues in front of us at once. And I think that's part of what Black Lives Matter is about, right? It's really focusing on anti-Black racism, which is not the only form of racism in this country and not the only form of injustice and oppression. And I don't think it's saying it's the only one. It's just, I think it is calling for attention to this one and focus on one. And then, you know, the more deeply we can address injustice, I think it will open to, you know, other forms of oppression. So I don't feel a right answer. Like I don't, I could see I could see it going either way, you know.

[64:30]

And kind of like, you know, we sort of need both, or maybe we need both flags. And maybe other flags, too. Thank you. Brenda? Thank you. Thank you for your offering today. I'm from Colombia, and living in South America, it's been quite different experience, what's happening for the movement in Black Lives Matter. And, you know, as a black woman and within the black community, it has been like a lot of talking. it's bringing a lot of awareness. But I still have this feeling like my SN teacher or the same groups are not bringing that awareness to the groups.

[65:45]

And, you know, I try to open up the conversation once. talking about disability and how to bring disability about black men or black women and all their own accomplishments and how wonderful they are in their different areas, in their different professions. And I felt like that conversation wasn't possible because the answer I received was this, Yeah, but we're all the same. We're beyond that. Maybe as a spiritual community, we are beyond that difference. That's just not the question. I was like, look, I understand that. I understand that as a spiritual community, we don't want to embrace and we don't want to divide. I get that.

[66:47]

But also, there is this social reality. in where you experience racism and you're experiencing pathology and you're experiencing fascism or homophobia. And then that's reality. That's what it is. So I feel like we need to bring more awareness. And I don't really know how to open up, again, that conversation and open up in this Latin American context. I feel like one thing we see a lot among white people, and I've seen this in spiritual community, is this, you know, what you're talking about, a denial that we're not going to look at difference. And it kind of sees seeing difference as the problem. But seeing difference isn't the problem, right?

[67:52]

It's what we... It's what we add something onto the difference in the, you know, the higher and the lower, the better, the worse or whatever. And, and that actually seeing the difference and appreciating differences. I think, I think, I think we need to do it. I think we're here to do it. I mean, we want to honor difference differences, why we would relate to each other. And otherwise we just, you know, we could just close our eyes and just relate to ourselves, but we actually like all human relationship is interesting because we're different. And so I feel like our teachings, we can arm our difference. And this idea, there's this thing, sometimes it's called being colorblind. I don't color it. That's one of those deflections, that's a defense. That's maintaining the status quo, as you say.

[68:52]

Yeah, I agree with what you're saying. I think we need to be able to talk about difference and affirm it and not pretend like differences and then really examine what are we adding and look at the injustices that are actually happening because of how these differences are held within the systems of society. Well, maybe that's... Is anyone else raising their hand, Jiryu?

[70:11]

Not that I see. Okay. Okay. Well, thank you all very much. I think we appreciate this opportunity. Thank you. Everyone is welcome to unmute themselves if they'd like to say goodbye. Thank you very much, Charlie. Thank you. Thank you so much, Charlie. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, Luminous Forum.

[70:50]

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