Good evening. I'm very glad to see you, especially those I haven't seen for many years. But I'm reluctant to talk to you because I'm very bad at public speaking. And also, I was too busy to prepare for this talk. Actually, Reverend Yamamoto at Japanese headquarters called me towards the end of last September or October concerning this session. But unlike big Zen centers like yours, the Milwaukee Zen Center cannot support my family and me. So I teach Japanese at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee.

[01:01]

And I'm too busy teaching and preparing for the Japanese courses to prepare for Zen, except for a weekly study class at the Milwaukee Zen Center. I said on the second day of last session at Tasahara several years ago, I said that I stayed up until midnight yesterday and prepared today's talk. But the fact is that I brought scissors and glue, making provision for a possible emergency. And I was right. At the end of my preparation the night before, I thought I wouldn't have enough time. So I pieced together my old articles and read them the next morning.

[02:09]

It's not very different this time. Therefore, I thought that the easiest topic for me today may be how I became interested in Zen, how I have been practicing, and what I think of Zen in the United States. Because in that case, I don't have to check books and dictionaries. Otherwise, I have to make much time to prepare. But I hope that this topic will be helpful for your future practice. And it will also connect to the theme of this special session, which is Transmission and Maintenance of Dharmarite Precepts and Rules. But I'm so bad at public speaking that I don't know how long it will take.

[03:21]

As I said at Tasahara last time, I was asked to speak for one hour. And so I said, OK. And I talked for what I had prepared. I thought it took 50 or 50 minutes, so I could ask just a few questions. And I saw my watch. It was only 15 minutes. And next time, I was asked to speak for 30 minutes in another place. So I said, oh, 30 minutes is easy. Last time, I made a mistake. So this time, yeah, sure, I can speak for 30 minutes. And again, I finished talking what I had prepared. And I saw my watch. It was only seven or eight minutes.

[04:23]

I didn't know what to say, and I didn't know what I talked about. But after I came back from the stage, the sponsor said, oh, thank you very much for your wonderful talk. So I said, was it wonderful? He said, oh, very wonderful. So I said, I think especially the latter half of my talk was good, wonderful. He said, yeah, especially the last part of your talk was very wonderful. So anyway, I don't know how long it will take. But maybe 15 minutes, or seven minutes, or maybe two hours. But the night is long, so it's okay. So let's start. It may be surprising, but my major at college was Marxist economics.

[05:28]

And Karl Marx said, religion is opium. And, of course, I believed in it. Therefore, when I was a student, I was not interested in any religion, including Buddhism and Zen. I thought religion is very bad. It's opium. And at the same time, I practiced yoga and Aikido at school. And I was the captain of Aikido club. Several years after I moved to Milwaukee, I got a letter saying that I am a new resident priest of the Valley Zendo, Massachusetts. I used to be the captain of Aikido club when I was a student. And later, I was ordained as Soto priest.

[06:31]

And before I came to the United States, I visited my Aikido teacher. And he said that your senpai, or your senior, is in Milwaukee, so contact him. And senpai means senior. And if you saw the Rising Sun, movie Rising Sun, you remember that Sean Connery often mentioned senpai. Senior and junior relationship is very important in Japan. And therefore, that priest was my kohai, and I am senpai. And his name is, of course, Isshō Fujita, Reverend Fujita. I think he will come here sometime next week in order to interpret Narasaki Roshi's lecture.

[07:34]

So, after graduation, I started working for the Tokyo Bankers Association. But after about one year, I said to my yoga teacher that I want to go to India to practice yoga. And he said that, oh, you are too young to attain enlightenment in India. You should rather go to the United States and Europe, and other countries, so you can see how people in the world are doing, what they are thinking, and so on. I was only interested in India and China when I was a student. Neither the United States nor Europe. India is, of course, the country of origin of Asian cultures.

[08:41]

And China also has a very old cultural tradition. And most Japanese culture is from China. And because my major was Marxist economics, I was very interested in seeing communist China. So I was only interested in India and China, not the United States or Europe. But because my yoga teacher said that I should go to the United States and Europe, so I came. First, of course, I quit the Tokyo Bankers Association after about two years and came to the States. When I was traveling in the United States and Europe for two years while teaching yoga and Aikido and giving massage,

[09:45]

many people asked me, how different are Buddhism and Shintoism? What is Zen Buddhism? Of course, I couldn't answer any question like that. The only answer I could say was, when people are born or when people get married, they go to a Shinto shrine. And when they die, they go to a Buddhist temple. That's it. But because so many people asked me about this, I became interested in Zen. Because I used to practice Aikido, therefore I became interested in Zen. And I returned to Japan after two years and started teaching Japanese as a second language.

[10:47]

Because wherever I went in Europe, I always had troubles in language. So after I returned to Japan, I thought maybe I could teach Japanese. And I started teaching Japanese. And I wanted to learn Zen, but I was too busy teaching Japanese to study or practice Zen. So I didn't study any Zen. But I think I was lucky. Because the Japanese school where I taught was in the basement of the Buddha Hall of a notable Rinzai temple in Tokyo. And I became good friends with a novice at the temple. If I had studied Zen at that time, it would probably have been Rinzai Zen.

[11:52]

Of course, I don't mean that Rinzai Zen is bad or wrong. I always tell our members, no single teaching is good for everyone. This teaching may be good for some people, but not other people. And that teaching may be good for those people, but not for others. Therefore, we need many different kinds of teaching. So when I say that I was lucky because I didn't start Rinzai Zen, it doesn't mean that Rinzai Zen is bad or wrong. I just want to say that I'm so happy with my present practice, which is Soto Zen. Anyway, after two years, I went to the University of Hawaii to teach Japanese

[12:54]

without practicing Zen at all in Japan. But they say that when you go out of your country, you appreciate your country's uniqueness. So when I went to Hawaii, my interest in Zen grew, even though I married in Hawaii and a daughter was born. So I decided to practice Zen. And I heard that there is a famous Zen priest in San Francisco. And I wondered if I should return to Japan or go to San Francisco to practice or study Zen. Therefore, during the winter vacation, I came to San Francisco to see that Zen priest.

[14:03]

But I couldn't see him. I just met his wife. And his wife said that Roshi died one week ago, and today is his one-week memorial day. Of course, it was December 1971, the Suzuki Roshi. So I visited the San Francisco Zen Center one week, just one week after Suzuki Roshi died. Therefore, I decided to return to Japan. But I didn't know how I could study Zen. And a friend of mine said that he met a Zen priest when he visited Japan the summer before. And if I want, he said that he could introduce me to that priest.

[15:12]

He didn't know what kind of priest he was, and of course I didn't know at all. But because I didn't know how to study Zen, he said that he could introduce me to him. So I asked him, yes, please introduce me to him. And as I told you, I had a wife and a daughter. And my wife wanted to stay in Hawaii, but I returned to Japan and visited that priest. And he said that the first time I met him, he said, What's wrong with this guy? So just chop off from here and put it here and sit. That's it. Nothing else. What's wrong with this guy? So just chop off from here, put it here and sit. That's it.

[16:19]

And I thought, that's right. Exactly as he said. What's wrong with this guy? This is the path I have been looking for, so I should definitely practice this. And I decided to study from him, although I didn't know anything about him before. And he said that, I teach Zen here, which is a small town about 70 miles from Tokyo. I teach Zen here on Saturday and Sunday, and in Tokyo on Monday evening. Practice with me for two years. Two years is enough. You may read only two books in those two years. Zen talks and talking about Shodoka, both written by Kodo Sawakiroshi.

[17:26]

Shodoka is a song of enlightenment. So he said that, I may read only two books in those two years. Zen talks and talking about a song of enlightenment. Otherwise, just practice with me and listen to my Teisho for two years. That's enough. But I was too busy teaching Japanese even to read those two books. But I never failed to attend his practice for those two years, except twice. One was when I was late about an hour because my train delayed due to a typhoon. And the other time was the first weekend of the new year.

[18:28]

After I started Zen, I never stayed home with my wife and daughter on weekends. On weekends, I always went to a small town about 70 miles from Tokyo. I was living in Tokyo. So, therefore, I thought that the first weekend of the new year, I should stay with my wife and daughter. Those two occasions were only twice, two times that I missed his practice or Teisho. Of course, one time I was only late about an hour. And after two years, that is 1974, I was ordained by him. And I had a few months before the official training period would start at Eheji.

[19:38]

So, I entered the regional monastery. And I was so shocked. I thought monasteries are ideal places for practice. But what I found in the monastery was that novices were not interested in the Zen or the way at all. Not interested in the Zen or the way. They just wanted to get qualified to succeed to their father's temple. They were only interested in rituals and ceremonies. I was only interested in the Zen. Not rituals or ceremonies. Anything else than the Zen.

[20:41]

So, I was so shocked. And they tried to be as lazy as possible. I remember that when I first went there, one novice said, You know that the hardest thing here is Sesshin. Sesshin is, he told me, is to practice Zazen for one week. Except that, if you try to do nothing, it's not so difficult here. But, of course, for me, it was very, very difficult. And, authoritarianism in a Japanese monastery. It is completely contrary to Buddha's intention, I think.

[21:48]

Buddhist order must be free from the discriminatory social structures. So the Buddha gave seniority to those who entered his Sangha earlier. But stupid humans give an entirely different meaning to it, and misuse it. This shows how the Middle Way is difficult, but important. I thought, that's why Buddha taught the Middle Way. So, for me, the monastery was much worse than the secular world. In the secular world, people must be serious. At least, they must be serious. Although serious about getting money.

[22:50]

It's not very good, but still, many people are serious. But, at monasteries, they can be lazy if they become senior novices. So it was very difficult to control myself. Fortunately, or unfortunately, however, I broke down in the middle of the New Year's Day service. At midnight, on the New Year's Day, we had a service. And I broke down in the middle of the service. I think because I worked too hard teaching Japanese before entering the monastery, and I also worked very hard at the monastery.

[23:53]

So, I went through a thorough medical examination. And the doctor said that, you shouldn't go to Eiheiji. She practiced Zen, and she had been to Eiheiji and Soji-ji, I think, several times. So she knew how we do. So, after the doctor had taken the examination, she said, I shouldn't go to Eiheiji. I asked, what's wrong? He said, your liver is worn out. But I didn't know what's a liver. Of course, I know liver, but I don't know about liver disease. So, I asked him, I don't mind if I die for Zen. What will happen if I go to Eiheiji?

[24:58]

She said, you have to stay in bed for the rest of your life. I was so surprised. I only thought of death and living in good health. I never thought about staying in bed for the rest of my life. I have a wife and a daughter, and if I stay in bed for the rest of my life, they have big trouble. So, therefore, I decided to go home, in spite of Otaroshi wanting me to stay there. Of course, I was so disappointed with the monastery and novices. It's one reason why I decided to go home. And the other reason is that Roshi promised me to finance my family while I was in the monastery,

[26:04]

but he couldn't. So, I had to support my family. Therefore, I decided to go home. And a friend in Europe, who is a karate teacher in England, wrote to me. They say that all people and intelligentsia cannot stand the army. He's my friend, but he's about ten years older than I am. So, he knew the Japanese Imperial Army. So, when he said the army, it means the Japanese Imperial Army, he said, all people and intelligentsia cannot stand the army. You, Okusumi, I may be too old and intellectual to stand the monastery.

[27:08]

And so I thought, maybe the Japanese Imperial Army, Zen Monastery, and sports club at the university are just the same. So, I returned home, and in order to support my family, I started working as an importer of medical equipment. But I didn't return to Otaroshi, because I left the monastery against his wishes. And I was too busy in my new job, as usual. When I do something, I always put my whole energy into it, so I have little time to do something else.

[28:11]

And especially this time, I started a new job, so I was too busy in my job. But I couldn't stand what they were doing as a company, so I quit after a year and a half. What they say to sell their goods, and what they actually do are completely different as an importer of medical equipment. They pretend to serve people for their welfare. They say that they sell medical equipment for people's welfare. But what they were actually doing was just business only for money. And that contradiction was too big, so I quit.

[29:12]

And I tried to find a way to come to the United States while getting unemployment and working part-time. And I visited almost all Zen temples, both Rinzai and Soto, in the Tokyo area at that time. Tokyo area means not only Tokyo, but Tokyo, Yokohama, Chiba, Saitama, where they practiced the Zen. And I listened to Teisho, including some by famous Zen masters. And there were very good opportunities to see how other people practiced. Ohtaroshi told me, you don't have to go anywhere, just stay and practice with me. Because I was very curious, and I didn't go to Ohtaroshi at that time,

[30:16]

so I visited almost all Zen temples where they practiced the Zen. And so, after I came to the United States, some people told me that you should visit and see other Zen centers. So I said, no, I don't need that. I know what they are doing, because I visited many temples. And although I met some famous Roshi and unfamous Roshi, only a few Zen masters impressed me. And the most impressive Roshi was Settei Fukutomi Roshi. He was a Rinzai Zen master.

[31:20]

He was not famous. I don't know if he is now famous or not in Japan. But in those days, he was not so famous. But he was very serious, and Teisho was very kind, and down to earth, and very persuasive. And so, I was very impressed by him. And I remember that, in one of his teisho, he said, I don't use koan anymore, because I've seen so many harmful effects of koan practice. I'm not saying koan practice is wrong. Koan practice is good. But I'm talking about this only to tell you how his teaching is unique,

[32:27]

or how special he is. Hsu Rinzai master could say that. I don't use koan anymore, because I've seen so many harmful effects of koan practice. And I was very impressed by his words. And I talked about Reverend Fujita at Varizendo. When I met him later, I asked him, why did you become a priest? He said that. He studied Zazen at Rinzai temple, and he thought it was very good. So he went to Roshi and asked him to ordain him. And Roshi said that,

[33:32]

the present monasteries are no good. Only for getting a qualification. So please go to Antai-ji. So I went to Antai-ji. Antai-ji's priest was Kosho Uchiyama Roshi. And I became a priest. So I asked, hmm, it's very interesting. I thought, Rinzai people practice Zazen much harder than Soto, and so Rinzai monasteries must be different. But that Rinzai master said, Rinzai monasteries are no good. And he recommended Reverend Fujita to go to Soto temple. What's his name? Reverend Fujita said, Sette Fukutomi Roshi.

[34:36]

I was so surprised. Sette Fukutomi Roshi is the one I said the most impressive Roshi. So I was so surprised. Including both Soto and Rinzai, he was the most impressive Roshi for me. But other Roshi whom I thought good, one is Kojun Noiri Roshi. He is of course Soto Zen. Noiri Roshi held Bendo-e. Bendo-e is a kind of traditional practice. And he was also very serious and very kind. And he taught, even while we are eating, with our Oryoki. Even during the formal eating, he taught.

[35:39]

But one problem about him is that I couldn't understand his Teisho at all. He was a traditional Zen master, and he gave typical traditional Teisho lecture, and I didn't understand him at all. If I had understood him, he may have been like Sette Fukutomi Roshi. But unfortunately, I couldn't understand his Teisho. And another Roshi was Tokugen Sakai Roshi. He is one of the best two attendants of Sawaki Roshi. The best two attendants of Sawaki Roshi are I think Uchiyama Roshi and this Sakai Roshi. But Sakai Roshi's attitude is kind of arrogant,

[36:45]

so some people don't like him. But I thought his Teisho was very good, and a few books of his have been published, in Japanese of course. I hope more books of him will be published and also translated into English. And another Roshi was Shoujo Karako Roshi. He was one of Uchiyama Roshi's disciples, but later he left Uchiyama Roshi. So he is also a kind of very special character. But his understanding is very deep, and I think I like his teaching very much. So I thought

[37:48]

Settei Fukutomi Roshi, who is Rinzai master, Koujun Nori Roshi, Tokugen Sakai Roshi, and Shoujo Karako Roshi, who are Sotozen Roshi, were very good. Meanwhile, I had met Tamiya Roshi, a minister of a Japanese Sotozen temple in Hawaii, when I was teaching Japanese in Hawaii. He came to teach Japanese at the University of Hawaii, and we shared the same office. And we continued to stay in contact after we returned to Japan. And because I was trying to find a way to come to the States, he said that. I think I can help you go to the United States.

[38:50]

So I said, oh, thank you. I would appreciate it if you could help me. And a few months later, he said, it would be better if you would come to my temple and learn the customary practices of Zen temples, because Zen temples have some customary practices, not only Zazen. And if you go to the United States, you won't be able to learn this. So maybe better. So I said, okay, then I'm coming. And a few months later, he said that it would be better if you would go to a monastery first. I wonder if it was his native character or just a tactic. He first said, I think I can help you go to the United States.

[39:51]

And a few months later, he said, it would be better if you would come to my temple. Now, he said, it would be better if you go to a monastery first. But he was so good at asking that I couldn't say no. So I said, all right, then I'll go. And therefore, again, I found myself in a monastery. But because I was married and I had a daughter, so I went to a monastery in his prefecture. He thought that it would be better that I go to a monastery in his area. But of course, the monastery was just the same as the former monastery. Novices just wanted to get a certification.

[40:57]

And they were only interested in rituals and ceremonies. And they tried to be as lazy as possible. And authoritarianism. And therefore, I was very sad to see them like that. But I could stand them this time. Because I knew already how monasteries and novices are, and so I was ready to accept them with patience. After I came to the States, I advised some American priests going to a Japanese monastery. The only lesson you could learn in Japanese monasteries is patience. Just be patient, whatever happens.

[41:59]

And you can learn many more valuable lessons. Each time you meet difficulties, you can learn some teaching. The proverb says that adversity makes men wise, or hardship makes you into a jeweler. In that sense, I think Japanese monasteries are the best places to practice. I told you before at the beginning, I thought monasteries are the ideal places for practice. But I was wrong. But now, I have to restate. Monasteries are the ideal place, or the best place for practice. In the sense that you have big trouble,

[43:05]

you can study best teaching from an unfavorable condition, among hardship. And I heard later that some American priests went to a Japanese monastery to train and came back in complete upset. I didn't give them any advice because I thought that monastery was very good, and also it was only a short time of training. So I didn't give them any advice, but it didn't work. I understand them, how they felt in Japan, in the Japanese monastery.

[44:09]

I understand them very well from my own experience. I just wish I could have advised them, just be patient. So if any one of you want to go to a Japanese monastery, I advise you, just be patient. Only if you can be patient, the Japanese monasteries are the best place for practice. And after one year, I finished training at the monastery, and started preparing to come to a Zen center in the United States. But I failed to come to the Zen center that I wanted to come to.

[45:10]

Instead, I went to Zenshu-ji in Los Angeles. Zenshu-ji is a Japanese community Zen temple. And before I came to the States, I met a priest who used to be a minister of a Zen temple in the United States. And he said, be careful, there are all kinds of Buddhism in the United States. Not only Japanese Buddhism, but Chinese Buddhism, Korean Buddhism, and not only Mahayana Buddhism, but Theravada and so on. So I was a little afraid. And he was right. When I came to the States, not only Buddhism, but other religions like Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, and so on.

[46:13]

So many different kinds of Buddhism and religions. But there was no need to be afraid of any religion. I met and talked with priests of all different denominations or religions. But I thought, Dogen Zen is one of the best teachings in the world. I said, one of the best teachings. Because I told you that any teaching is good. Good for some people. And we need all different kinds of teachings. But, of course, for me, Dogen Zen is the very best teaching. But I don't want to be dogmatic. So the advice, be careful, only means he didn't really understand Dogen Zen's teaching, I think.

[47:18]

After I came to Zen Shuji, of course, Zen Shuji was the same as Zen temples in Japan, or like Christian churches. Most activities are ceremonies and rituals, and social and cultural activities. But it was a very good chance for me to recognize the meaning and importance of this kind of temple. I used to make fun of this kind of temple. Oh, they are just a cultural center or something like that. But when I worked there, I found out there are certainly people who need that kind of temple, that kind of activities. So I recognized the meaning and importance of that kind of temple.

[48:29]

But it was certainly not a place to practice Zazen. And when I met Katagiri Yoshi, I asked him, Do you know any Zen center that wants a Japanese priest? And he introduced me to the Miwoki Zen Center. So I moved to the Miwoki Zen Center from Zen Shuji in September 1985. It may take time to talk more, and I'm happy that it's over 55 minutes. It's not 50 minutes.

[49:33]

So maybe I'll continue tomorrow. Thank you very much. Thank you.

[49:46]

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