This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Good morning, Green Dragon Assembly, and welcome to our visitors today. Do I understand correctly that you all are from an Asian philosophy class at UC Davis? Well, I'll have to bring up some Asian philosophy today for you. And welcome to all those in Zoom land.

[01:01]

As many of you may know, Zen tradition often presents its teachings and stories, anecdotes of the ancient Zen ancestors. Sometimes they're dialogues amongst various people. And sometimes they're very hard to understand what's going on. So today I'll bring up one of these stories, an old Zen koan, but it's a simple one. And it's not even, it's kind of a dialogue, but it's a dialogue someone's having with himself. This is case number 12 in the Gateless Barrier collection of Zen koans called Ruyen calls master.

[02:14]

And the story goes like this. Every day, Ruyen called out to himself, master, and answered himself, yes. Then he would say, Be aware. And answer, yes. Don't be deceived by others. Yes, yes. That's case number 12 in the gateless barrier collection. Every day, this... Zen teacher would talk to himself that way. Apparently, it wasn't even just like an internal silent conversation he was having himself, but he'd come up on the seat to give these kind of Zen talks, and he'd talk that way.

[03:30]

Day in and day out. So a little bit of background on this Zen teacher, Ruyian, who lived in the ninth century in China, the golden age of Zen. He's in the lineage of Shirtou, one of our Zen ancestors. a disciple of Yento. Rui Yan means auspicious cliff. His name is Auspicious Cliff, and his teacher's name is Cliff Top. Yento. And

[04:36]

Often we hear the stories of these Zen teachers. When they were younger, they had some kind of pivotal conversations that shifted their perspective. These awakening stories. When they first opened to a new perspective. This is a story when Ru Yan was practicing with his teacher Yen To. And he asked his teacher, what is the fundamental constant principle? Which is the type of question that these Zen practitioners often asked. Sometimes they were interested in more practical matters, like... Where's the broom?

[05:39]

But most of the stories that get recorded, they're asking about the ultimate matter. And this is one way to talk about the ultimate truth. And try to understand what it is by asking the teacher, what is the fundamental or the original, constant, unchanging principle or reality? Principle is one of those terms, li in Chinese, right? That in Asian philosophy is often used for like ultimate truth. It's the principle and there's phenomena. So we could say, what's the original unchanging reality? What's the fundamental constant principle? And teacher Yan To said, moving. It's the fundamental, unchanging, unmoving reality.

[06:45]

Moving, or it just moved. And Ryu Yan, the student, said, when moving, what then? And Yan To, the teacher, said, then you don't see the fundamental constant principle. And Ruyen stood there thinking, contemplating this in his own experience. And the teacher Yanto said, if you understand conceptually, you are not yet free of the duality of mind and objects. if you don't understand, you'll be forever sunk in birth and death. And upon hearing these words, Ru Yan awakened.

[08:01]

His perspective spontaneously shifted. He had a fresh take on how it is. Again, the teacher said, if you understand conceptually this point about the unchanging fundamental reality and how when there's moving, or when you're moving, you don't see it, even though And the teacher said, if you understand this matter conceptually, then you can't be free of the duality, the separation between mind and objects. He literally said, between all the six senses, between eyes and colors,

[09:12]

We will be free of the duality of eyes and colors. We will be free of the duality of ears and sounds, of nose and smells, of tongue and taste, of body and sensations, of mind and thoughts. Then we might think, okay, well, we can't get it conceptually, so let's just relax and kind of blank out. Maybe we can get it like that. He says, but if you don't understand it all, then you're just forever sunk in birth and death and samsara in this endless cycle. So maybe Ruyen solved his dilemma, solved it. stuck and either trying to grasp it conceptually or trying to just ignore the matter are both not it.

[10:20]

So somehow letting go of both of those extremes, he directly realized the fundamental constant principle. And then, after that, after this shift of perspective, after some awakening, then, every day, he would call to himself, Master. This word, Master, can also be translated as Host. In Zen, sometimes we talk about the host and the guest, this is the word. So maybe he, you could say he called himself host. Host?

[11:21]

Yes. Maybe he called himself, he called out host or master when he had forgotten or lost touch with, The host. And what's the host? That which graciously hosts all guests. That which invites everyone in. That which allows every experience to come and go. What a gracious host, non-discriminating host. Everyone's allowed in. They can have some tea, some conversation.

[12:25]

They can stay as long as they want and they can go when they want. This kind of host, very gracious. It's our host. Everyone's host is the same host. This Zen Center's founder, Suzuki Roshi, called it Big Mind. He said, Big Mind includes everything within itself. In other words, Big Mind hosts Everything. Everything is every particular experience that we call our life. Suzuki Roshi said, big mind includes everything within itself.

[13:28]

There's nothing outside of big mind. And therefore, big mind is not related to anything else. It says a small mind is the mind that's related to other minds and other beings and related to experiences. You might say related or dependent. So I would understand what Suzuki Oshii is saying. It's an interdependent mind. Sorry to say. is small mind, as I would understand. Interdependent means related, or related to other minds or other experiences. But this big mind is not related to anything. Why? Because there's nothing outside it to be related to.

[14:32]

In that way, it's not interdependent with anything. It would need something in addition to itself, right, to be dependent on or related to. But there isn't anything other than itself. We could even go so far as to call it independent. But it's not some thing. It's like empty space. Big, gracious. host. And then all the guests that are welcome in the host's party, the guests can all relate to each other. And the guests are all enjoying the feast interdependently with each other. But the host is there's nothing other than

[15:39]

outside the host. Suzuki Hiroshi also said, whatever you experience, and we could say within big mind, because he says everything is experienced within big mind. He says, whatever you experience is an expression of big mind. In this kind of host, all the guests are actually just an expression of the host. They're like manifestations of the host. The host is actually expressing itself as the guests. This is maybe stretching the metaphor a little bit. We're talking about a party the host is hosting. Wait a second.

[16:40]

These guests... at the host party are actually just a host. A host expressing herself as the many guests. So this big mind, the host, can express itself as this particular person saying host. In other words, the host can call out host. And the host can answer that call. Yes? Is the caller

[17:42]

And the call to are these two different people? Or is it just the host is expressing itself as a question? Master, host. The host is expressing itself as the word host. And then particular reply comes. Yes. here. Also, nothing other than the host. Master. Host. Yes. Be aware. Be aware. This is, uh... This Chinese character that's made up of mind, the radical for mind, and the radical for star or brightly shining planets.

[18:56]

You know that one? Asian philosophers. So it's kind of like bright shining mind. radiant star-like mind. Be aware. And then he would go on conversing with himself. Don't be deceived by others. others from the perspective of the host the host that has no other and others are kind of like an illusion there is no other for the host right all the guests appearing are actually just expressions of the host

[20:17]

manifestations of the host. The host appearing as guests within the host. The host within the host appearing temporarily as a guest. Don't be deceived by others. In other words, don't be deceived by thinking that there is another. Of course, others appear within this host and self appears within this host. But from the point of view of the host, these experiences of a subject, like a self, and an object, like an other, are

[21:20]

just simultaneous expressions of the one undivided host, indivisible host, appearing as a self and an other. But don't be deceived by thinking that the others are really other than the host and other than the subject, the so-called self within the host. From the perspective of the guests, there's a self relating to another. From the perspective of the host, there's just infinite expressions arising and ceasing whose nature is nothing but the host. post-conversing with itself in the temporary form of selves and others.

[22:30]

Don't be deceived by others. Yes, yes, okay. Who is this calling and who is this responding? What an absurd practice. Uyuyen practiced every day. This host is a knowing host. It is an aware host. It knows itself. Continuously. It's always knowing itself. But there's nothing outside of itself. So how does the host know itself? It knows itself by being itself.

[23:42]

It doesn't know itself in a subject-object, dualistic kind of way. It can't help knowing itself. It is knowing. It is awareness itself. Aware of itself. By being itself. And it's never hidden. There's never a time where we're not aware. can't lose it. We also can't get it. We are it when we can't not be it. And it can't not know itself. It can't not be itself. And yet, so-called small mind, the mind that's related to others, that one

[24:54]

when it's relating to others, loses touch with. It's true nature. The host. The guests are enjoying themselves and enjoying the other guests so much that they forget the host of the party. I think that's why Ryu Yan, even though he already understood this matter, he was living as a person, he was constantly forgetting. So he had to constantly remind himself. Host, yes? Be aware. Well, I already am aware. Yes, but be aware. You are aware, but knowingly be aware. the awareness that you are.

[25:56]

Yes, yes. And don't be deceived by others. Yes, yes. First, just be aware, be the host, and get in touch with the spaciousness of our nature. And then, in a little more deeper way, investigate, what are these apparent others as the host? Let's not be deceived by them. On the surface, this might sound just like a basic mindfulness practice of, like, Master, yes, be aware. We might understand it as, just pay attention. You're getting distracted. Just pay attention to what you're doing. Pay attention to this present experience. That would be a kind of a simple way to understand it and wouldn't be a bad practice.

[27:01]

But I think that's not why this is not a Zen koan about just pay attention to what you're doing. That would be too simple to enshrine it as a Zen koan in the gateless barrier. more than just mindfulness of a particular experience, more like, remember our true nature, the big mind that's not related to anything else. Why, why would we be so concerned with something that's formless and shapeless and colorless and ungraspable. Because it's, by its very nature, it's free.

[28:07]

Big mind is always okay. Suzuki Roshi says, regarding this big mind. It's to trust or believe that something is supporting us and supporting all our activities, including thinking mind and emotional feelings. All these things, these experiences, are supported by something big that has no form or color. It's impossible to know what it is. Something exists there. And we exist in that space. Another way he talks about big mind. And the space is always free.

[29:11]

The space is always okay. And then, in other words, the host is always okay. But us guests, us human guests, appearing, within the host, as expressions of the host, we have our problems, right? So if we can remember the host, if we can be the host that we truly are, it puts our problems in a different perspective too. It's not like it eliminates them, but They seem to become more workable. When we're really focused on a problem, it's very hard to remember the host, but that's why we have zazen. We have times when we can just sit and open to the host because we don't have to do anything else at that time.

[30:11]

Of course, we sometimes do do other things at that time because that's how us guests are. We like to do things. But it's a nice time where we don't have to do anything. No one's asking us to do anything during Zazen. Except sit upright and still. And ask. Host. And verify. Yes. Host. Remember, be aware and verify. Yes, aware. And remember, don't be deceived by others.

[31:13]

Verify. Oh, yes. I forgot. not something other than me. We could also say it's not so much that we remember the host and it's like, oh yeah, I forgot. And I'm recognizing the host again. Sometimes it's spoken of like that, but we might say we haven't actually forgotten it because we're always aware of something. We're always aware, even what we call totally distracted.

[32:19]

I'm like trying to focus on this, but my mind is going over here, and then this is over here, and then this is over here, and that's over there. And wait, I'm totally distracted. But actually, of course, the host hasn't changed at all. It's just the guests are getting more and more restless. The guests party is getting more and more wild. I call that distraction. And then we remember host. Oh, yeah. But it's not so much that we're seeing the host that was hidden. You could talk about it that way, but it's more like we're... It's not like the host is recognized as something new. It's more that... It's more like knowing what was already known, but knowing it clearly. What is already known is that we are aware.

[33:26]

Sometimes we're aware of objects, which is not that clear. So it's like knowing that there's nothing but this presence of awareness, the host, but knowing it clearly, meaning that the so-called objects are not something other than the host. The guests are not other than the host. They're expressions. All experiences are expressions of Big Mind within Big Mind. as a kind of practical thing around this practice, thinking about this story.

[34:32]

And I hope my Chico Incense attendant doesn't mind me telling the story that he told me that he got a phone app that rings a bell every 15 minutes. And like we... In the kitchen sometimes we have the mindfulness bell. But I think he was using this bell not just as a mindfulness bell to come back to the present experience, but as a kind of turning the light around bell. Something like this. Like a host bell. When we're immersed in our role as a guest doing something, the bell rings and we're like... We can say host. Oh, yeah. It's like a... I think of remembering the host as a very relaxing outbreath because the host is so spacious and the guests sometimes get constricted within the host.

[35:44]

So I was inspired by that. So I got an app too. And the bell... for I don't know maybe the last month or something the bell rings every 15 minutes that's a lot throughout the day and I learn a lot by that because sometimes I'm really immersed in the guest management tasks like several emails open at the same time and I gotta like paste this one into here and reply to that one and nobody say anything before I Finish this process, or I'm going to forget a piece of it. Like, super zoomed in on a particular guest. Email, I think, is especially like this. My job here is a lot of administration kind of work. Very guesty.

[36:48]

And so sometimes the bell goes in the middle of that. And I have an aversion to it. I confess. I'm like, okay, okay. Finish this first. I'll remember the host in just a minute. It's very good. It's very humbling for me to hear that bell and say, this particular task of the guests right now are more important than reality. And I feel a little kind of sadness when I say that to the bell. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, ultimate reality. I have some convincing old tasks. Dings a little bit. I confess it to you. But, you know, I'm playing with it. Sometimes it's like, no, actually, I stepped this up for this very point. Remember.

[37:53]

now nothing will be lost and also um sometimes like in the kitchen we ring the mindfulness bell and there's the practice of stop whatever you're doing put your knife down and just breathe three breaths 10 seconds or something and then and then go back which is very helpful mode of kind of stopping activity to be present um But sometimes when things are going quickly and you have to finish things, I feel like I don't have time to stop, which is kind of a delusion. But sometimes I've learned that actually I don't really have to stop to remember the host. And this is, I think, even more important than stopping. It's more like in the middle of attending to this particular task, remembering the space of the host, the host of this task, remembering it while immersed in the task, I think is even better practice than stopping.

[39:04]

At first, it may be good to stop, but if our life, if to remember the host, we had to stop all activity, that wouldn't be a very Functional host. So. If we can remember the host. At any moment. And even just for a second. It starts. This. These second by second. Mini verifications of the host. And start to like. Gradually. Very slowly. I think. infiltrate our mind and change our mind. Many, many, many, many, many, many, many remembrances of the host while being a guest.

[40:15]

maybe I should increase the apt every five minutes. But 15 is already a lot for me. Even four times a day would be a lot for most people of the world. Now you have this possible practice. After Ru-Yen, died, a student of his then went to another teacher, Xuansha. And Xuansha asked him when he arrived, where did you come from? As they often asked in those days. And he said, I came from Ryuyang's place. And the new teacher, Xuansha, said, why didn't you stay there? And this monk said, because he died.

[41:22]

So I left to further explore the teaching with other teachers, like you, Xuansha. And Xuansha said, I'm so sorry to hear that. What did he teach you there? What did Ryuyang teach you there? And he recounted the story. He always, all day long, called to himself, Master, Host, Yes. Be aware. Yes, yes. Don't be fooled by others. Yes, yes. That's what he taught me. Basically, that's the main thing that he taught. And, uh... And Chuan Shao said, Wait a second. Now that Liu Yan has died, who's going to ask the question and who will reply? And the monk didn't know what to say, so Xuansha hit him, as they often did in those days.

[42:32]

But that's a question for us. When the guest named Ryu Yan dies, when the guest that we are dies, then who's going to ask and who's going to answer? The host doesn't die. The host is birthless and deathless. So in these koan collections, there's usually a verse at the end to celebrate the story. And so Wu-Men, who collected these stories, wrote a verse. With each of these 48 stories, he writes a verse. But this one is unusual. I think it's the only one in this whole collection of stories where Wu Man stole the verse from another Zen teacher.

[43:37]

It's his direct quote of a verse from another teacher, but he doesn't even give him credit for it. Is that ancient Zen plagiarism? I think people like quoting each other. And he felt like this verse applied to this story. The verse is, students of the way do not know reality. They only know their dualistic consciousness up to now. This is the source of endless birth and death. But the foolish call it the original person. And briefly, let me just tell you the story where this verse came from. This verse was actually written by Chang Sha, another Zen teacher, in response to this dialogue he had with a student.

[44:39]

And here's the dialogue, which is, I think, therefore, there's both of them, this verse is a verse to the story we've just been talking about, Ryu Yan, and it's also a verse commenting on this story. So you can see how this story is very similar to Ryuyuan's. In this story, Minister Chu says to Changsha, the Zen teacher Changsha, when an earthworm is cut in two, the two parts wiggle and move, keep crawling, right? In which part of this cut worm is the Buddha nature. There's a teaching that all sentient beings have Buddha nature, including worms. So when you cut the worm in half, you can't really cut Buddha nature, right? So which half has the Buddha nature?

[45:43]

They're both wiggling. I love those questions that those ancients came up with. In which part of the cut worm is the Buddha nature. Changsha said, don't be deceived. And the minister asking the question said, well, what about that movement? In other words, like, doesn't that move? Isn't that movement coming from the Buddha nature? And Changsha said, you should know that that movement is just undispersed wind and fire. which I think is an old Chinese way of saying, it's just the, it's the working of the four elements that make up sentient bodies before the elements have dispersed. At death, the elements disperse, but they haven't quite dispersed yet, so they're still moving. In other words, this movement is just like ordinary, like,

[46:47]

Physical stuff happening. This has nothing to do with Buddha nature. You could hear it like that. And. Don't you know. This is just undispersed wind and fire. And the minister didn't say anything. And Changsha called out to him. Minister Chu. And he said yes. And Changsha said. Isn't. your real life? When I call you and you say, yes, isn't that your real life? Something to do with your Buddha nature? We're not trying to analyze some kind of spiritual substance that inhabits pieces of worms here. That's not the Buddha nature we're talking about. We're talking about the Buddha nature of Minister Chu? Yes? That. lively response.

[47:51]

Isn't that your real life? And the minister said, there can't be another true person apart from what responded just now. And they go on a little bit more, but then Changsha spontaneously recites this verse that Wu Men uses in his collection. Students of the way do not know reality. They only know their dualistic consciousness up to now. This is the source of endless birth and death, but the foolish call it the original person. So, master, yes? Is there some sort of dualistic consciousness that's divided into subject and object? And if we think that it's the subjectivity, some sort of witness, Over here, that's just dualistic consciousness. The source of birth and death.

[48:53]

But foolish people say, oh, me, my kokyo is witnessing awareness that resides behind his eyeballs. That's the original person. That's what fools say. Big mind is... not divided into the subject and the object. So you are equally big mind as I am big mind, and I am equally big mind for you as you are big mind for me, and so on. So just be aware and not be deceived by others. Thank you for listening to this podcast. offered by the San Francisco Zen Center. Our programs are made possible by the donations we receive. Please help us to continue to realize and actualize the practice of giving by offering your financial support.

[50:01]

For more information, visit sfzc.org and click Giving. May we fully enjoy the Dharma.

[50:12]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_96.44