Yesterday I talked about the Blue Cliff Records story number two and Ingo's introductory words, which were, heaven and earth become too small or contracted and the sun, moon and stars are not bright enough. Thunderous words, shouts and blows of the stick will not be enough. It's your own inheritance already. Buddhas of past eons and future eons and of the present age

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know it in themselves. Patriarchs, all the patriarchs, can't expound it completely, nor can the sutras or Buddha's own teaching explain it completely. Even Those who follow Buddha's way of life completely, with clear eyes, are confused. to say Buddha's name was to wade in, wade hip deep in mud and water. The word Zen in your mouth should make you blush. Now, ponder.

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what Joshu has to say. Beginners and new students should listen carefully. Older students have no need to hear this. I think that's quite clear, and the more you're familiar with this kind of story, and maybe the faith necessary to understand this kind of story, it's not so difficult to

[04:22]

get what is suggested, even though he plays with us because he says things he doesn't quite mean or to get you don't quite work, you know. All of these kind of stories in my lectures are to give you a kind of faith, not to help you work something out or suggest answers, or even a direction, but a kind of

[05:24]

faith in your own deep life. The first story in the Blue Cliff Records you will remember, Bodhidharma and the Emperor, is about how you find a teacher. Don't seek outside yourself. And it uses the same theme as the second story, the relative and the absolute, holy reality of essential essence of Buddhism and ordinary reality. And this one, too, uses the same theme of absolute and relative. But this story is about once you've found your teacher, how do you practice with your teacher? What is the relationship? Engo, in his introductory word, characterizes the relationship like wading in muddy water, hip deep.

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Studying Buddhism is difficult because it's to bring it out of ourselves. Sutras or heaven and earth or thunderous blows or your teacher are not so... not so much. It has to be brought out of you. So, what is that relationship? Oh, excuse me. In Ingo's introductory word, before he says, waiting in deep hip-deep in mud and water, he says, what is the use of specific questions? What is the use of specific questions? So, after his statement, he's asking, what's, like Dogen, what is the use of practice? What is the use of asking questions, as you asked questions yesterday, after lecture?

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I appreciated your questions very much and appreciated being able to talk with you about your questions. So here, Engo says, what is the use of such questions? So this story is about your standpoint in practice, your standpoint in your relationship with your teacher. So, Setso, who compiled the book of records, uses here the story of Joshu, Joshua quoting the third patriarch, Sosan. So again, this is all kind of an elaborate commentary. First is about Bodhidharma, and this is about the third patriarch after Bodhidharma. Bodhidharma's grand disciple, grandchild.

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So Bodhidharma says, excuse me, so Joshu quotes the first two lines of Sosan's famous poem. The real way is not difficult. It's only without discrimination. At this point, Engo says, what's this old Chinese bringing his bunch of briars to us today for… So, Joshu supposedly says, quoting Sosa, the real way is not difficult, it is only without discrimination. But already this is discrimination. So, Joshu says, as soon as we say anything about it, it becomes little. Heaven and earth become contracted. That's what Ango says, but he says it becomes little. As soon as we say anything, we must talk about the relative and the absolute.

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This old monk does not reside in cloudless clarity. What about you who look up to it? What do you say? Anyway, that much is the beginning. Cloudless clarity comes from the poem of Sosan, which the first two lines, you know, the real way is not difficult. It is only without discrimination. The third line is, free of love and hate, we reside in cloudless clarity, for it appears without disguise or without effort. So Joshu says, the real way is not difficult, it's only without discrimination. But if we talk about it even this much, already we're talking about relative and absolute. Real way is absolute, without discrimination. To say without discrimination is already discriminating. To say real or perfect is already discriminating. So what can we say?

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So a monk comes up and he says, I myself don't live in cloudless purity. He says, I'm not a sage. In other words, he says, I'm not some sage living in the absolute. What do you say to this? I'm supposed to be your teacher. So a monk comes up, you know, attached to his teacher, being a sage. And this monk is, from some people, think this monk is rather aggressive or a little out of order. But I don't think so. I think he's a rather interesting person. He says, if you are not within cloudless clarity, if you don't reside within the Absolute, how do you assess it? How do you determine this? Rather a clever question.

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And he also means, what can we look for? What can we look up to? How can we take the three refuges and the prohibitory precepts and the pure precepts? What can we look up to if you're not in the Absolute or there is no Absolute? So he says, how can you determine? if you're not in the residing in cloudless clarity, literally. And Choshu says, I don't even know this. I don't know. So monk is more persistent and he says, how can you say

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I don't know unless your standpoint is the absolute." Or he implies, isn't I don't know already the absolute? And Joshu says, your questioning is over. Please bow and go back to your place. Finish your worship and go have lunch or something and go to bed. Do whatever is next. That's Joshu's way, you know. Engo comments on all these answers as they go along. For instance, when Joshu says, I don't know, Even this, I don't know, Engo says, he's got the old monk in retreat. Thirty miles back he just went, knocked to the ground. Let's see, what else?

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I don't remember it. The last one, when he says... Oh, then the next one, when he says, um, what's, uh... What is, uh... your standpoint? Second time, second question. The monk... Ango says, now, now he's got him running, he'll soon drive him up a tree. And then when Joshu says, please finish your vow and go back to your place, Ango says, the old rascal, he still had that one up his sleeve. Lucky for him. Oh, and when he says, He comments on the two lines of the verse and says, already this is discrimination. Talking about, as soon as you say something you must talk about absolute or relative.

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I don't reside in the absolute. What do you say to this?" Ingo says, oh, a double head with three faces. He's selling at retail, which is really quite interesting comment. He's selling at retail. And Ingo's comments are a little bit too explicit sometimes. He almost himself is selling at retail. Anyway, in this question and answer, you see Joshu trying to take or taking Neither the standpoint of relative nor absolute. At one point to the question he presents something broadside. The real way is not difficult.

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And then he says, I'm not in the absolute. Here he's presenting something upside down in some confusing way. And he's going maybe against the stream, against the wind, if we use sailing metaphor, when he says, Is there anyone here, you who are concerned with the Absolute, who are attached to your place, you know, and don't move? Here he is, sailing against the wind, maybe. And when he says, I don't know, he's just drifting. Whatever... Oh, I don't know.

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And a monk is still trying to make the answers fit together. If you do so, you'll never have any real experience of the multiplicities of our existence. You can't fit them together. So take the burden off your mind and eyes and listen or just know the darkness. how to use darkness. This sashin is seven days and nights of darkness. How to use darkness. And last one, you know, he just takes it out of context. Go finish your bow and go back to your place. He just changes the context. He's not, he doesn't slight the person asking the question. And he doesn't slight the question. And he's not caught by trying to, by the framework of the questions and answers. He's always taking some other standpoint.

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but with some great respect and feeling for the person asking the question. Ingo comments, when the monk makes his first question, Ingo comments, he needs a good thrashing, meaning some teachers would thrash or be harsh with the person asking the question. And when Joshu says, go back to your seat. Engo says, some people would try to, teachers would try to talk their way out of it by logic. But it's not necessary, you know, for question and answer to follow. there's some experience, you know, we should know what we're talking about. Again, Engel suggests this by saying, you should know the weight by how it pulls on the hook, not by reading the numbers on the scale. So to practice

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between teacher and disciple and among us together, we need to have some faith or some sense of what we're talking about without the need to make it explicit or tie it down or solve it this minute. So Joshu's example is of not being too difficult. Engo says, my teacher said he showed him by letting his arms dangle down. Just no eagle eye, no big Zen master stuff. Just, oh, okay. Tsukiroshi was very much like that. On the other hand, we don't want too much kindness The meaning of, again, of wading in deep water is too much attempt to make some relationship. Maybe to give you an image of Buddha, to talk about Buddha, he says.

[25:35]

Maybe it means to give you an image of Buddha or a feeling of Buddha is too much kindness. Already, as a beginner, you have some feeling of practice or holy practice. Already, that may be too much. To give you an idea of Buddha, too, or to talk about Zen, is not beginner's mind. So our relationship should be quite open and at the same time not too much kindness, Tsukiyoshi says, an old woman's kindness. Maybe too much. But in another case, you know, there's quite a well-known story about Dogen. When his other disciples say, why did you transmit to so-and-so?

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his first disciple, and Aja. And he said, because you don't know yet an old woman's mind. So sometimes an old woman's mind is okay. Here in this story, he's pointing out, an old woman's kindness, or too much, is like wading in muddy, deep water. But we're not trying to find some goal, so wading in deep, muddy water is Buddha's activity. It's before we have an image of Buddha. And so maybe our relationship is wading in deep mud and water, some confusion of absolute

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relative, sage, and ordinary person. Enough, maybe, on that story for now. Is that kind of story interesting to you, or is it rather funny and obscure? Would you tell us something about Engo, how he got up in the position of criticizing his author's right? He's a famous Zen master, so he can do anything he wants. Anyway, we don't have to pay attention to it. But he and Setsho put together the Blue Cliff Records, and each one makes Nyogen Senzaki's commentary on Bluetooth records is saying, Nyogen Senzaki says, oh, come get off it, Setsuo. Quit trying to fool people. And you don't know whether he means, I admire Setsuo very much, or he means Setsuo is too much. It's you. You have to know that for yourself, what he means.

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So as long as you don't know, your teacher will try to confuse you, send you on the wrong path for a little while. Not too long, I hope. Maybe he's famous because what he said is quite amusing. I want to talk a little bit about breathing. Do you want to say something?

[30:14]

With the city up there? You're sitting up there in the open. Oh. I have too much confidence in you. Too much confidence in me? Yeah. That's what I'm talking about today. That's... Suzuki Yoshi points this out. I remember when he... many times, and when he talked about this story, too. The difficulty is that we have too much confidence in our teacher and also too much confidence in absolute, or we get locked into the absolute because we don't want to be rejected by the sage. So we don't have any freedom. So problem, as Suzuki Roshi stated it was, is that your teacher is right, but only for that moment. You shouldn't be too attached to him. The problem is he's right, but you shouldn't be too attached to him, only for that moment. So difficulty is

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As Joshu tries to demonstrate in this story, or Setso tries to demonstrate in his, in Engo, in their presentation of this story, how Joshu, or a teacher, tries to make it come out of the student, make it come out of each one of us, including the teacher. I go away quite a lot already. I'd go away more. Maybe that would be better, except I like it here too much. I'm attached to being here. I want you to get lost with me, actually. Then we wander around together. Where are we?

[32:35]

Like Suzuki Roshi says, it's like Dogen, I think, said it originally. Maybe Dogen's quoting someone else, I don't remember. Anyway, it's practice is like looking for your pillow in the dark with your left hand. Where is it? That's what practice is like. Yeah? The student embraces the Absolute, and the Master contains the means. It just seems to be a shape, a different way of coming at it than you might imagine. I've been trying to remember. what I want to say about breathing. As we talk about breathing, you know, counting your breath is the first practice given in Zen, almost always, from beginning of Zen until today. And counting your breath makes you

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aware of your machinery, not just your breath, because you actually identify with your breath already, but not with your body which breathes. You objectify your body, so you objectify the world, and then you become subject of the world. And Zen practice is to be in that creative place outside subject and object, freely creating subject and object. So the first step in breaking down that objectification of our body, we count our breaths. Like steam finding out it's in a boiler. So you count your breaths. and in the process you will become aware of many things. Then usually we follow our breath. So instead of it being one, just counting some particular point, you know, our exhale, and there being someone who counts,

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To follow your breath, maybe 1 to 10 is on just one little part of an inhale or exhale. It's more continuous. So you have some experience of continuity. thousands of one-to-tens on every moment. But a third step, or deeper meaning of to follow your breath, isn't to follow it with your mind like you're counting continuously, you know, like a roller coaster or something, but to give up to the rhythm of your breathing. to let your breathing become your guide in your practice. This is closer to oneself to oneself, giving oneself to oneself. So there's no more an observer, nobody who tries to say, I should be breathing slowly, or tries to slow your breath down. If your breathing is to slow down, or if your practice is to do this or that, your breathing guides you, your rhythm guides you.

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So you just become one with the rhythm of your breathing. This is also to follow your breath. Be one with your breath. And have a very detached state of mind. that notices but doesn't conceptualize or grab onto things. Feel things out in the dark. I mean, maybe, if necessary, with your ears. Allow the world to be there without night time or day time. You know, if you always are thinking, always are cognizing, you are subject to cognition and those things which you don't cognize.

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You know, we don't really believe that ignorance is bliss. So, out of some fear, we try to think of things. In fact, in some eternal and infernal way, our mind is always talking to ourself. And by doing that, you know, it kindles, creates anew. our world over and over again. You are always recreating it, checking it up, pushing out the things that don't agree or covering them up. And you'll find in a sasheen like this that many ancient fears and desires and frustrations come out. And you can see that your daily activity, which seems logical, the meaningful scheme of your life, is often just a series of lids or distractions to keep you from being aware of these ancient fears. And your mind is always incessantly talking, infernally talking to itself to adjust this

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And when you stop, your world is all fixed and programmed, and nothing new will happen. There'll always be something expected. So out of fear, if we don't think, we'll be subject to what we don't think about, we try to think of everything. But if you stop thinking, this is a little bit of faith, you know, you are no longer subject to those things you don't think of. the Taoists, you know, tried to objectify this as some plane of being which is beyond our reach. And in Buddhism we characterize it in the eighth bhumi of far-reaching, where the deep correlations of our life, you know, occur.

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because at each moment we are ready and are not thinking. And do not hesitate to take each opportunity. Non-doing means every opportunity you take, like a door is opened and you step in. Not busting through the walls or knocking on the doors, just a door is opened and you step in. Each moment there is some opportunity. If you think, you miss it, you know? And later you have to find your way back and knock on the door. Now, just to have that state of mind which recognizes each opportunity and takes it automatically is to be outside subject and object. Mmm.

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They say in Buddhism and in China, by that which you cannot see or hear or feel, which you cannot see or hear or feel, and if you don't try to see or hear or feel, by it you will be manifested as a sage. A sage is not his own possession. It's all of our mutual possession. And we participate in our own manifestation, our own wisdom, as this case of the Blue Cliff Records is trying to give you

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a deep feeling for, how to have a standpoint outside your question and outside your teacher and any objectification, and yet be sincere and at one with each thing. is this story of Joshua and his effectively questioning monk. Thank you very much.

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