So, I just wrote up to where we left off last time. I don't confirm. The teaching of justness has been intimately communicated by Buddhas and ancestors. Now you have it, so keep it well. throwing a silver ball of snow, hiding a heron in the moonlight. When we're around them, they're not the same, and when we reach them, you know where they are. That's as far as we got, I believe. We may have got far enough. If not, tell me. When we reach them, oh, sorry. The moving is not in the words. We didn't talk about that, did we? No. Okay. The new moon is not in the words, yet it responds to the inquiring impulse. Well, we know that the meaning is not in the words, but yet the new moon is also in the words.

[01:15]

Sekito, our ancestor Sekito, was enlightened when he was reading the Chao Lun. which by Kumara Jiro was the famous translator who came, translated the sutras into Chinese. And his, Sheng Chao was his student. And Seng Chao wrote the Chao Lun, I think it's called, which is about this subject. Probably, I think the Chao Lun is probably one of the foundation texts for Sandokai. And Sekito was enlightened when reading that.

[02:20]

So it's possible to be enlightened through a text. The only problem is that enlightenment is not enough. We have this idea when we read the texts about Buddhism that enlightenment is this great thing that we're supposed to reach, and it is. We should reach enlightenment, but enlightenment is not enough. Anyway, the meaning is not in the words. It's true, we have to experience the meaning. But the words can help us. Suzuki Roshi used to say, as a teacher, we make a mistake on purpose. We'll know that the meaning, the thing itself doesn't reside in the words.

[03:29]

But we use words anyway, by mistake. But we make that mistake on purpose. So we know what we're doing. So the meaning is not in the words. It's beyond words. And yet, it responds to the inquiring impulse, or it responds to the inquiring student. In other words, it, the response, is through our practice. Right? We keep using the word it here all the time. You notice that In the heart sutra, we say mu. Heart sutra is the sutra of mu. Mu this, mu that, and mu. Which means no, right? But it also is a koan.

[04:32]

The heart sutra, every line of the heart sutra is a koan. That's why people get disgusted with it. Because it doesn't jive with our logic. And this is the... That's a sutra of it. It, it, we're only talking about it. It is like this, it is like that. So, the meaning was not in the words, yet it responds to our inquiry. or it responds to our sincerity or our sincerity to pursue it, right? And if you're excited, it becomes a pitfall.

[05:38]

Excited is a, there are a lot of different ways to say, to express this sentence. Excited, hasty action creates a pitfall is the way we translated it. Hasty action, in other words, if you become too forceful in trying to grasp it, then it becomes a pitfall. You have a problem because you have to be ready to receive something. So our temperament has a lot to do with our ability to learn something or to absorb something.

[06:50]

Our desire can be very strong, and our desire can come from various places. If we want to gain something, then this is kind of like that excitement. You know, I want to get enlightened. I want to have something. But what is the reason why we want to have something? So if our reasons are simply egotistical, I think this is the excitement aspect. We want to be enlightened in order to impress people. Or we feel that if we're enlightened, we won't make any more mistakes. Or if we're enlightened, we won't suffer anymore. And so, you know, we have these various reasons.

[07:50]

We come to practice for all the wrong reasons. And then, in the course of practice, if we stay with practice, we find out, our desire becomes refined. And we realize what enlightenment is, we realize what practice is, we realize why we're doing something. So, practice is suicide. But we don't know that. It's like the death of our ego. Our ego brings us to practice. in order to find its extermination. So if you're excited, it becomes a pitfall. And if you miss it, you fall into retrospective hesitation.

[08:55]

These words. To miss it is to linger in consideration. So if you go too fast, if you go too strongly, you go past it. And if you don't put yourself into it enough, then nothing happens. You just kind of think about it, right? So there are a lot of different ways to translate this. I want to, this is best, both of these lines, these four lines, If you're excited, it becomes a pitfall. If you miss it, you fall into retrospective hesitation. Turning away and touching are both wrong, for it is like a mass of fire. Mass of fire, or massive fire. When we were working with the translation committee on this, it came out as massive fire instead of a mass of fire.

[10:00]

Anyway, Joshua said, what is the way? Nansen said, his teacher said, ordinary mind is the way. Nansen said, Joshua said, shall I seek for it? Nansen said, if you seek for it, you'll become separated from it. Joshua said, how can I know unless I go for it? Nansen said, it is not a matter of knowing or not knowing. Knowing is delusion, not knowing is confusion. When you know the way beyond doubt, you will find that it is vast as vast as space. How could it be talked about on the level of right and wrong? Joshu had a realization. So I like to think of this translation as If you seek for it, you stumble past.

[11:04]

And if you don't seek for it, you fall into retrospective hesitation. So seeking and not seeking, what's the middle way between seeking and not seeking? That's the point of this koan. What's the middle way between seeking and not seeking? You have to seek. And yet, if you seek, it's a pitfall. Sheng Yen has a nice... I'm trying to remember it.

[12:07]

I left it at home. We have to seek the precious mirror, and yet the precious mirror is something that we cannot, we have to seek the precious mirror through practice, but I wish I could remember. You see, the proper attitude is this. I need the practice to attain the precious mirror. although the precious mirror is not something that I attain through practice. I think that says it all, and we can all go back to the Zendo.

[13:11]

If you have any questions, feel free to ask them. Speak up, Zorba. asked if you could elaborate more on ego, because last class you said... I said, yes, I really liked that when I was selling it. Thank you. So, it's just a figure of speech to say, get rid of ego. You know, if we know what it means, that ego, get rid of ego means... to put ego in the service of big mind. I always think offering up ego to Buddha, and then letting Buddha tell ego what to do. So, we're always making an offering of ego.

[14:27]

I think that's the way to practice. is continually making an offering of ego to Buddha. So we always ask ourselves, well, what shall I do? Well, asking what shall I do is how we offer ego up to Buddha. And then if we say, I don't know, that's even better, because then Buddha fills the space of I don't know. So I don't know is a very fundamental koan for us. But there's a problem with I don't know. Because we can learn on I don't know. So not good to learn on I don't know. But I don't know clears the space, it clears your head.

[15:34]

And then what you do know actually comes up, gives the opportunity for true knowing to appear. So that's a kind of offering. I don't know, it's a kind of offering of ego. So it's a dropping, offering, and it seems dropping. You say there's a danger of looming on, I don't know. Do you mean that there's a risk of giving up the inquiry? Yeah, I mean, it's not, it's like, don't depend on it too much. Don't depend on anything too much. If we read a lot, we depend on books. If we sit a lot, we depend on zazen. If we work a lot, we depend on work.

[16:39]

So although we do depend on these things, we should be careful not to be too dependent. There's a... by Dogen, in which he talks about when you fall down to the earth, you use the earth to help you back up. That's great, you know. The problem you have is the problem that helps you. But if you keep saying, well, you know, every time, I'll just keep falling down so that I can stand up, then you become too dependent on on that as a crutch. So it's good to use, you know, something like that, but not to depend on it as a crutch. That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

[17:43]

He does speak up. Well, enlightenment, as I said before, enlightenment is the beginning of practice. So actual engagement in practice is just as important. You know, Dogen says, Core Dogen, Some may realize it and some may not, but it doesn't matter. The main thing is to practice. So the main thing is actually to engage in practice. And the other main thing is to experience enlightenment. It's not that one is better than the other, but it's like the light and its lamp. If you read the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Ancestor, he talks about prajna and samadhi.

[18:47]

Some people talk about prajna, other people talk about samadhi. And even when you read Hsin Lin, he says samadhi is good, but it's not, you know, kind of secondary to prajna. The Sixth Ancestor says prajna and samadhi are like a lamp and it's light. Samadhi is the basis, and prajna is the activity. So without samadhi, prajna doesn't come up. And without prajna, samadhi is simply quietism. But they're inseparable. When there's samadhi, prajna comes up. So when there's practice, enlightenment, practice in zazen, there's zazen and samadhi.

[19:52]

And prajna is the light of zazen. You experience that light in zazen. So prajna and samadhi are one thing, but we talk about two different aspects of it. And so enlightenment and practice Practice is the basis for enlightenment. Enlightenment is the fulfillment of practice. So they reinforce each other, even though it's one thing. Speak up, please. What is the second one here? Pragya. Pragya is... Well, I will show you the basis rather than the quiet, because practice isn't just quiet.

[20:54]

Practice is our activity, right? When realization doesn't arise, is practice just quietness? No. Practice is great activity. Practice isn't that just sitting, is it? But it's working in the kitchen, right? So, prajna arises through activity in the kitchen. You know, you see all these wonderful lights moving in the kitchen and call them people. And then he talks about, oh, where am I here?

[21:58]

I don't know. So if you miss it and you fall into retrospective hesitation and turning away and touching, you're both wrong. For it is like a mass of fire, massive fire. It is like a fire. It is like a fire. So turning away and touching are both wrong. But it's like, how do you... Suzuki Roshi used to talk about a lamp, a smoky kerosene lamp. It was a good analogy when we had nothing but kerosene lamps here. The lamp has got a little button that you turn. So if you turn it too high,

[23:01]

the lamp flames out and gets all black. You know, it starts smoking and sticky. So you have to know just how to adjust that little valve to have the light without burning up the lamp. So that's... Our practice, actually, is to be able to adjust that little button so that the fire works for us. So we're always containing fire. We contain fire in the stove and in the lamp, but we also have to contain the fire within ourselves. So this is the biggest problem with containing the fire within ourselves. So we get really heated up about things and then we flame out, you know, or we don't have enough fire to really get going.

[24:10]

So it's interesting. There are different, you know, wherever you go, People have a slightly different way of practicing. So there are some teachers who turn the fire up really hot. And there are some teachers who turn the fire down very low. And there are some teachers who just look for how to make the fire work in every situation. how to keep adjusting it. Precepts are designed to contain the fire. That's one of the aspects of precepts is that, you know, don't kill, don't do all these things. Keep the fire working for you instead of against you or other people. Don't burn yourself is what precepts are about. So refining the practice so that you have just the right amount of fire to take care of whatever is in front of us and to create a harmonious situation.

[25:36]

So sometimes the teacher will turn up the fire really high and burn out the students. Only those students that can survive will make it. This is very common in certain Japanese monasteries where the monks are very young. And so, since most of the monks are very young, they're kind of like just out of high school or just out of college, and they have a lot of energy, and they carry the kiyosaku, or the keisaku, in Minzai's mantra. And they try to, they just beat each other over the head, all over the body, while they're sitting zazen. And they try to see how many sticks they can break over each other. So this is like turning up the fire, you know. And then there's some monasteries where nobody does much zazen, you know, they just drink a lot of tea.

[26:40]

Like in Kasahara. Suzuki Roshi always tried to maintain the mood. So enough pressure, enough fire to make it uncomfortable enough so that you don't fall into complacency. And yet, comfortable enough so that people could manage through their difficulties. You know, we have, people are always comparing different practices. And I remember when we were in the 70s, we turned the heat up really pretty high because there was a kind of competition to see in, you know, like that place over there, they turned the heat up pretty high, so we have to turn the heat up high in order to be as good as they are or better, right?

[27:53]

So it becomes a kind of ego contest to see who can have the most macho practice. And this escalates. When that begins, then it becomes a mode. And people are struggling as hard as they can. And then that's supposed to create a breakthrough. But is that really spiritual practice? Maybe. There's a practice to create spiritual virtuosos. And there are some spiritual virtuosos that are made through that practice, but is that really the goal of practice, is to create a few spiritual virtuosos?

[29:00]

maybe, I don't say it's wrong, but spiritual practice or religious practice should be for everybody. So what happens is, in the beginning, like in Buddha's time, it was very, you know, somewhat aesthetic, although Buddha himself discourage asceticism. And when there's a small group, there can be a very strong kind of practice. But as the religion becomes more popular, it gets more watered down. But it includes more people. So as it becomes more and more popular, and more people, it becomes more watered down and even the reality or the truth of what's going on gets lost.

[30:07]

And you can see how that gets lost in popular religion today, which is driving our country. So how do you keep the correct practice and at the same time accommodate people so that they can practice without being discouraged. In these monasteries you're talking about where the monks are like 18... You have to speak up. In these monasteries where it's a bunch of really young men practicing together and they're meeting each other with sticks and, you know, just making things really difficult, turning up the fire. It seems like it could be that anything less than that would be too easy for them. Maybe, but there aren't very many of them. You know, 10 or 12 in a monastery, big monastery, huge monastery, you know, 10 or 12 months, 15 months.

[31:19]

And it only lasts a couple of years. Then they don't continue practicing. Mostly. Mostly. So, but then they have a reputation. So in Japan, if you're traveling on the train and someone says, what are you? And you say, well, I'm a Zen monk. Very difficult. That's the idea in the mind. Very hard, hard practice. How do you find that in you? Should the practice be... Just under too hard? No, it should be hard. It should challenge you. Practice should challenge you. If it's not challenging you, it's not practice. So the teachers might challenge you, but also support you, right? Yes, and also support you. But that's a whole... I'll talk about that later in my Sushin lectures, about how students and teachers interact.

[32:26]

to drive you and support you. And then there's, you know, grasping and allowing. So it was holding tight and letting go. So yes, Suzuki Roshi, when he talked about practice, said, when you begin your practice, you should stretch yourself totally in the beginning. In the beginning, you totally stretch yourself to the limit. And then you find the place where you can actually practice. It's like tuning, you know, tuning a string. You know, tune it up and find the place where it's in tune. So actually, and this talks about being in tune. There's a little line here where it talks about being in tune. How to be in tune. How to adjust the flame so that it does the right work and how to keep things in tune and harmonious.

[33:39]

Is our lineage a lineage of spiritual virtuosity? That's more Rinzai then. Rinzai style. You see, Rinzai style is like a general leading his troops. Soto style is like a farmer cultivating his crops. So we're kind of like farmers cultivating our crops, which sometimes includes the other side. So to be strict and at the same time gentle. But if you're only gentle and not strict, it doesn't work.

[34:41]

but be strict and then gentle. But if you're gentle first and then strict, it doesn't work. Because then people will say, oh, you're really coming down too hard on us. But if you're strict at first and then gentle, you'll say, oh, you're doing us a favor. Yeah. The great ones of the past devoted their whole lives to practice. and had a difficult time, usually the people who have the most difficult time gain the most benefit. So if you have a difficult time practicing, that's good.

[35:49]

If you don't, maybe you should work harder. But that doesn't mean that you should flame out. You should know, you know, So when we honor those people, it's because of their practice, because of their hard practice. But hard practice means different, various things. Strictness can mean various things. Strictness can mean strictly relaxing. Strictness can mean strictly relaxing. Just speak up.

[37:02]

Regarding containing the fire? Yeah. Would you say something to contain the fire as opposed to negating or regressing it? We don't want to put out the fire. It's containing the fire so that it works for you instead of burning you up or going out. So this is controlling the fire is controlling yourself without exerting too much control. When you... What is enlightenment? Enlightenment means just having the right amount of light. So you can see where you're going. It means being filled with light. So enlightenment means not burning up,

[38:05]

and not being dim. Yeah. It seems like there's so much Dallas and so many of the vines that we've heard up until now, and then we hear this line, it is like a massive fire. Yeah. Yeah, right. Like it's so much light. Yeah, that's right. It's like the sun, you know. The sun is like a big ball of fire, but we use that light, but we don't touch it directly. As a matter of fact, it bounces off the moon. And the moon is a symbol of enlightenment. So we don't say the sun is, we don't use the sun as a symbol of enlightenment. We use the moon because the moon is cool light and reflects, you know, and a dewdrop on the grass. And if you look at all the dewdrops, all the dewdrops are reflecting the moon the same way.

[39:12]

And so the whole thing is reflected in a dewdrop on the grass. So the moon is enlightenment. And sometimes it's called the hazy moon of enlightenment. But the sutra doesn't say it's like the moon. No, it says it is like a massive fire. So turning away and touching it goes on. So it does have that quality. The basic nature has that quality, but its reflection is through the moon. So And then... So to depict it in a literary form is to relegate it to defilement.

[40:27]

In other words, fancy words... just make it harder to... The problem is, once we understand words, we think that we have it. And this is the problem with explaining things. Sometimes people will come and they want an explanation. You know, what is big market? What is, you know... And then you explain, well, big market is a... Oh, I see. And then they think that they understand what big mind is. So it's better not to say anything, but at the same time to say something to help you to think about it more or to deal with it more. So explanation is not good. If the teacher explains too much, this is one of the problems we have.

[41:32]

We want to explain something. Gee, now I want to make this guy understand, you know. So starting to explain and realizing, wait a minute, you know, they're just handing somebody on a plate, cookie on a plate to eat, but it's not good for them. So... And we have fancy words. The Sixth Ancestor, the Platform Sutra, the nice thing about the Platform Sutra is that before the Sixth Ancestor, when Bodhidharma came to China, then there were the Five Ancestors, and then Huindang was the Sixth Ancestor, Daikon Eno. And Daikon Eno is considered the Buddha, the original Buddha in China, from China. because he took the teaching and made it Chinese. It came from him instead of into him.

[42:38]

And the fact that he was illiterate, whether he was or not, I don't know, but the story is he was illiterate. So he didn't, his understanding didn't come from learning, it came intrinsically from himself. So when you read the platform sutra, all these difficult doctrines come up. And he just explains them in very simple terms. Like what is dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, dharmakaya? If you read the sutras, there are all these fancy, you know, lofty explanations of what these three are. He says, Dharmakaya is your nature. Sambhogakaya is your wisdom. Nirmatakaya is your actions. That's all you have to know. Well, it's not all you have to know, but he just gives you the basis and just takes all that stuff out.

[43:46]

It gives you the essence. And it's not an explanation. It's a way for you to embody, to say, oh, it's about me. It's not about, you know, all these celestial figures out there. This is about my own mind, my nature, my wisdom, my actions. So each one of us is the trikaya. And we embody the trikaya in our actions. So... That's kind of what's going on here, you know? Just to depict it in literary form is to relegate it to defilement. And then, it is bright just at midnight. It doesn't appear at dawn. So here we have it again. And we're talking about the precious mirror. We're talking about light, right? It was bright just at midnight. It doesn't appear at dawn. What do you think that's about? Well, if you read the Sandokai, it is the way we perceive things, but how do we perceive them?

[44:56]

I don't know. Sorry? Relative and ultimate? Relative and ultimate, yes. And? Meaning what? In relationship to each other. Yeah, in relationship to each other. Well, yeah. Darkness holds the light. What? Darkness holds the light. Light fills the darkness. Darkness holds the light. I think he said that in the light there is darkness. Not to speak of... In the light there is darkness, kind of like there's this really bright light and you stare at the sun and you can't see anything. And in the dark there is light. That's... But, you know, he's saying if you just identify with realization, then you're kind of lost in that. And you can't... It makes me think of Dogen when he says, when dharma fills your whole body and mind, then you realize something's missing.

[46:22]

It's bright just at midnight. But if you think you have something, it doesn't appear at dawn. When you see things as separate, then you realize there are no things. It's empty. When you see the absolute, then things come forth again. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I always take that little couplet to mean that it isn't dependent on conditions. Like we normally think if it's midnight, well, that's dark out, and if it's dawn, well, then it's getting light. So to say it's light just before midnight and it doesn't appear at dawn to me says it doesn't depend on things as we see them, the conditions that we're in. Mm-hmm. And the dawn is unknown. Well, let's look at it just as what it says.

[47:28]

Dark, in this case, means oneness. Dark, in the Sandokai, you know, darkness means, like, in the dark you can't see the difference between things. So in the darkness, all is one. And in the light, everything appears. When you shine the light, you see everybody. When you turn out the light, you don't see everybody. So it's kind of the opposite. It doesn't mean good and bad or right and wrong. Darkness means oneness. Everything disappears. All the differences disappear in oneness. And brightness means everything is revealed. So it's kind of interesting expression. At midnight, it's bright. So this is... It's a mirror.

[48:45]

The bright mirror shines in the dark or is revealed in the dark as oneness. And at dawn you can't see it because the light is shining on all the mirrored things. And so you don't see the oneness. You only see the difference. So right now, you know, we only see all of us as separate and the building and the people and all of the objects, but we don't see the oneness. We don't see the dark. We don't, you know, we don't see that. But at night, you know, if we turned out all the lights, it would be shining in the dark. But the mirror actually shines both light and the dark.

[49:48]

So we have to be able to see the oneness within the multiplicity. Is that partly why the moon is the symbol of enlightenment? Because why? Because it's dark, and yet there's light within the dark. Yeah, I think that's a good... That's a good analogy, that the moon is, the midnight is shining. It's hard to see when it's really bright. It's hard to see when it's really, yeah, because the light blinds you. It's blinding, yeah. And so multiplicity actually blinds us to oneness. Yeah. So maybe a way to say it would maybe be that in the context of emptiness, the mirror appears, so it's bright just at midnight. And then in a context of viewing the myriad things, the mirror is not so evident.

[50:55]

It's not so evident, but it's there. But there's an element of dawn. The poem didn't say, it's bright just at midnight, it doesn't appear at midday. But it's like, as the light, I wonder whether or not there's an element of the dawn. Subtlety. Oh, sorry? The subtlety of dawn is... Like the light, dawn is when the light first comes out. And I don't, I mean, I don't suppose to know what that means, but maybe shifting from the context of emptiness or losing the context of emptiness as the dawn comes out and the nearer it is up here, that's when it's hard to be present with the nearer. Also, it was written in rhyming couplets. You did a good work. Dawn seems to be, or at daybreak, dawn, dawn. Monolight.

[52:00]

Yeah, they are, it's... I like what he says. He says, In the light there is darkness. Where it operates, no traces remain. With the hundred grass tips in the busy marketplace, graciously share yourself. The grass tips is like forms, people, you know. That's a kind of term, Chinese term, old Chinese term, the grass tips, like people and things, multiplicity. So when we study the five positions, I don't want to call them ranks anymore because it's not really proper.

[53:02]

Five positionings. We'll talk more about that. It'll become more clear. So then it says, it acts as a guide for wings in its use to remove all pain. So it's talking about the mirror, right? And then, although it is not fabricated, it is not without speech. Although it is not fabricated, it is also translated as it is not a way of action, or it is not created. It is not without speech. In other words, I think we talked about that before.

[54:10]

It's something you can talk about. You have to talk about it. Our intellect needs something. But direct touching is... interfered with by speech. Sorry. What do you think of that? Although its use removes all pains, it acts as a guide for beings. Its use removes all pains. although it is not fabricated. The Chinese use the term vexation, that stuff that vexes us. And when we return to the calmness of our mind, when the vexations are gone, then we return to the calmness of our mind.

[55:22]

This is the usual way of thinking, and it feels natural. When all of our vexations are gone, those are like clouds covering our true mind, or the mirror, actually, clouds covering the mirror. But if we feel that we have to wait until we don't have any more vexations in order to practice or find composure, then no one will be able to practice. So... Some people have an ability to not create bad karma, or they have an ability to somehow not have vexations.

[56:31]

But most of us have vexations, and we practice with our vexations. We practice with our shortcomings, and we practice with our difficulties, and we practice with our delusions. Delusions are the compost for our energy. We're like compost bins. And water, you know, and terminal water, and it becomes energy. And all these good things start growing out of it, you know. Yes? Darlene Cohen was here, did her government transmission, and then she gave a talk, and she said, the fish swim in the water, and the bird flies in the air, and us people,

[57:42]

Our medium is real weight and delusion. Yeah, our medium, right? We walk through real weight and delusion. And no matter how far... So, goodbye to the kitchen. I think the translation we use in Berkeley says, although it is not constructed. Yeah, the different translations. It's not beyond word. Yes. Yeah, there are a lot of different... Although it is not fabricated, although it is not contrived, Although not in the world we're playing, it is not altogether dumb.

[58:47]

And then one says, although not made by artifice, this truth can find expression in the words of those who teach true Zen. That's kind of the explanation. Yes. This strikes me as really core Taoism. the great Tao, you know? Well, I think Tao is, at that time, I think that Tao and Buddhism were intertwining, and the I Ching is a kind of Taoist text, and Tozan hears the I Ching, stuff from the I Ching, and yeah, sometimes it sounds Confucian. At the end of the Hōkyō-zōmai when the child obeys the parent, that's very Confucian.

[59:58]

So you have to realize that he was Chinese and Confucianism and Taoism were just like rules, terms from psychology and Christianity, you know, and our local. The thing about Buddhism, Buddhism is a religion of assimilation. And every place that Buddhism goes, every country, it's a traveling salesman. Every place that Buddhism goes, every country, it assimilates the local deities. So in Japan, a lot of the local deities are incorporated into Buddhism. And so Shinto and Buddhism were very much intertwined up to the Meiji period. and even after. American Buddhism will be psychologized.

[61:07]

When Buddhism came to China in the early days, because Chinese characters didn't jive with Sanskrit alphabet, One was alphabetical and one was character-oriented. It was hard to translate one into the other. So the Chinese scholars used Taoist terms to explain Buddhism. There's a name for that. I can't remember what it's called. And they did that for several centuries. And so Taoism became kind of intertwined with Buddhism in that way. And then at some point the Buddhists said, wait a minute, you know, Taoism is not Buddhism. And so they made an effort to, you know, make a separation between what is Taoism and what is Buddhism. And, you know, there's, I can't remember who it was, but at some point,

[62:10]

Somebody made this painting of the Taoists and the Buddhists and the Confucianists all in this happy triangle. Durgin didn't like that at all. But still, Zen, which became the most popular or the biggest school in China eventually, is infused with a lot of Taoist stuff and also some Confucian stuff, which is not bad, you know. It's just that we should know this is Taoism, this is Buddhism. The Sando Kai... of Sekito was originally a title of a Taoist book. Suzuki-roji talked about that and he said, well, there can be a book that the Buddhists say this is a Buddhist book and the Taoists say this is a Taoist book.

[63:25]

And so the Taoist see it as a Taoist book. The Buddhists see it as a Buddhist book. No problem. It's just the way you see things. So one time I brought a wonderful figure, which I think is Manjushri from China. And the only thing, and they sold it to me as a Taoist, is Lao Tzu. He said, this is Lao Tzu. And I said, well, no, it's Manjushri. You know, he's sitting like this, and he has, you know, he's diaden in his headband. But the Taoists see him as Lao Tzu. And I see him as Manjushri. But it's okay if I see him as Lao Tzu. As long as he's got the mudra and he's sitting in full lotus, you know, I bow to him.

[64:26]

I don't care who it was. Since he's exemplifying wisdom, prajna, I see him as Manjushri. So, you know, this whole thing, this whole poem is, the meanings are really obscure. And people who have done with translating and scholars say, you know, the Tokyo Zonai is supposedly written by Tozan, and there are many obscure passages. We just kind of have to gloom the meaning or kind of get at the meaning. So we try our best to get at a meaning.

[65:33]

So some people see different meanings, and in the translations, they are opposite. meaning opposite translation. I mean, there's places where they're translated in opposite ways. And we'll come to that at some point. So, oh my, we'll go a little longer. I want to go back up here to where it says, in response to the inquiring impulse, Well, I stay here. Although it is not fabricated, it is not without speech. I'll use this here. There is no fixed way of teaching.

[66:39]

I think that applies here. It's not fabricated. It is not fabricated, but it's not without speech. But what is the speech? It's not doctrine, and it's not learning. And it's not teaching in some special way. You know, sometimes people say, people get the idea that Zen Center should have a kind of academic ambiance, like a university. you know, or a school, you know.

[67:46]

And then five years you have this, and then ten years, you know. And so it becomes a kind of systematic way of producing teachers or priests. But in reality that can't happen, you know. It's not like that. It's like somebody can be practicing for forty years and they just always remain a monk. And they won't necessarily be a teacher or whatever, which is fine. But it's not like after you've learned these things and then you become a teacher. It's more like a tree with fruit. And when the fruit is ripe, it falls off the tree. or you can feel when it's ripe. And that's when someone becomes a teacher. But that ripeness comes from the right kind of nurturing and the right kind of understanding.

[68:48]

But you can't, you know, every student has to be dealt with individually. It's not like you sit in a classroom and learn something and everybody graduates. It's like each person has to be taught or dealt with according to who they are. So that's why a lot of teachers only have a few students, so they can practice with them individually and closely. And it's not even teaching, really. It's just more like association. And there are opportunities where teaching happens. But you go for a long time without that opportunity. But at the same time, just through constant practice, we absorb through the force.

[69:57]

So this is a very important point, and I think that's also coming out in this expressed here. When it says it responds to the inquiring impulse, responding to the inquiring impulse means that When the student really makes this effort, then it's not like they learn something, but something comes out through their effort. It's like if you climb a mountain and you're really working hard, and you find yourself in difficulty, and then something comes up within you that pushes you to the top. And so it's not like you learned something. It's like you brought something out through your effort.

[71:00]

And then the teacher kind of helps. Put your foot there, you know, or something, you know. And helps you, but you're the one that does the work. Of course, the teacher also does the work, but it's different work. So there's no special way to teach. You just teach through what comes up. You just respond through what comes up. Well, I think this is probably a good time to stop. I didn't get to the blackboard yet. But we will. If there's something to do before class.

[72:11]

That's right. But... When I come back, I'll have our study book all together. So it takes a while to make a study book for this many people and put it all together in time. That's why we haven't done that so far. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We'll be right back.

[73:33]

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