I am about to taste the truth, about to talk to us words. Good evening. You had a pleasant personal day. So we were in the middle of one called Changing Our Karma. We're on page 23, I think. Suzuki Roshi was commenting on a teaching of the Buddha that says, Brethren, restrain your many desires while receiving food and drink. Accept it as medicine. Do not accept or reject it based on what you like or dislike. Just support your bodies and avoid starvation and thirst. As a bee in gathering honey tastes the flower but does not harm its color or scent.

[01:01]

So, brethren, you may accept just enough of people's offerings to avoid distress. Don't have many demands and thereby break their good hearts. Wise men, for example, having judged the capacity of their animal strength, do not wear them out by overloading them. It may just go on. Oh, instead of picking up. To restrain your many desires is not really a matter of big or small. Many or few, the idea is to go beyond desires. To have few desires means not to divide our concentration among too many things. To do things with oneness of mind, with true-hearted spirit, that is to have few desires. While receiving food and drink, accept it as medicine. This means to be concentrated, accepting it with your whole body and mind, without any dualistic idea of you and food.

[02:03]

So we receive or accept food rather than saying we take food. Taking is more dualistic. Accepting is a more complete activity. You may think that to take is a more complete action than to accept. But according to Buddha's teaching, to grasp or take food does not include complete acceptance. Because it is dualistic, you will create karma. You may wish to grasp it because some other person wants to take it, so you must be very quick. But when you receive it, already you have it. And if you accept it with great appreciation, thank you very much. That is what Buddha means as the true activity of restraining your desires. Do not accept or reject it based on what you like or dislike. Again, to accept or reject in this way is dualistic. This kind of teaching does not mean to have control over your desires. If you want to control your desires, you will struggle with how much to limit your desires or your food.

[03:07]

And that way you will make more problems one after another. You may even find some good excuse to have more food, then you will lose your way. Just support your bodies and avoid starvation and thirst. If you know how to practice Zazen, then you will know how much food to take. And there is no danger of eating too much or too little. As a bee in gathering honey, taste the flower but does not harm its color or scent. This is a very famous parable, he says. When we take honey because the flower is beautiful or the scent is nice, we miss the true taste of the flower. When you are taking care of yourself and the flower, you can have a direct feeling of the flower and taste its honey. Often we are not so careful. We may ruin a beautiful flower or may stick to a particular flower. If we stick too much, eventually the flower will die.

[04:09]

The purpose of the flower having honey is to help the plant by inviting bees. So it is necessary to know whether we are like a bee or like something else. When we are aware of the difficulties that we sometimes create, we can extend our practice more carefully throughout our everyday life. Our minds should be more careful, more attentive and more reflective. You may think our way has too many rules about how to treat things. But before you know what you are doing, you cannot say there are too many rules. So notice whether you are creating problems in your everyday life or creating bad karma for yourself and for others. You should also know why you suffer right now. There is a reason why you suffer and it is not possible to escape from suffering unless you change your karma. When you follow karma and drive karma in a good direction, you can avoid the destructive nature of karma.

[05:19]

You can do that by being attentive to the nature of karma and the nature of your desires and activities. As Buddha pointed out, to know the cause of suffering is to know how to avoid suffering. If you study why you suffer, you will understand cause and effect and how bad actions result in bad effects. Because you understand, you can avoid the destructive power of karma. As long as we have an idea of self, karma has an object to work on. So the best way is to make karma work on the voidness of space. If we have no idea of self, karma does not know what to do. Oh, where is my partner? Where is my friend? Some people try hard to banish karma, but I do not think that is possible. The best way is to know the strict rules of karma and to work on our karma immediately. If you know something is wrong with your car, stop your car immediately and work on it.

[06:26]

But usually we do not. Oh, this is a minor problem for my car. It is still running. Let us go. That is not our way. Even though we can keep driving, we should take care of our car very carefully. If you push your car to the limit, the problems are constantly working on your car until finally it stops. Now it may be too late to fix it and will require a lot more energy. So everyday care is very important. Then you can get rid of your misunderstandings and know what you are actually doing. Thank you very much. This is interesting because I have been studying some on Seigaki ceremony. And one of the things that Reb said when we were studying Seigaki ceremony together, he said, another kind of ghost is all karma of body, speech and mind that has not been done with full presence.

[07:33]

If I die without having recognized it, that is maybe a ghost for other people and I cannot do anything to complete it. The ceremony of Seigaki is to release the ghost to help them burn up and complete their process. This purifies us and the temple. But this karma, karma just means action, this karma of body, speech and mind that has not been done with full presence sounds very much like what Suzuki Roshi is talking about in this talk about actions that we do without attention to what the consequences might be. And of course the actions, the karmic actions which create result, create consequences, create, leave energy still to be taken care of,

[08:35]

of those which are done based on self-cleaning. As he said, as long as we have an idea of self, karma has an object to work on. The best ways to make karma work on the voidness of space is to work on emptiness of self, the lack of substantial continuity of the self. I was having a discussion group, I can't remember what it was, there was one person in the group that whenever it was suggested that there was no actual continuity here,

[09:39]

she actually, she couldn't stand, I mean, it was just too much to think that there's not something continuous happening right here, that it's constantly arising fresh as a result of the causes and conditions of this moment, and there's nothing continuous to hold on to and it was very distressing every time. I can't remember what we were studying together but it was talking about no continuity and it just made her extremely uneasy whenever it was suggested no continuity. Do you think it's possible that people's belief in that can create a kind of energy that could exist in physical space after they die, such as ghosts or poltergeists? I don't know. Have you had such experience yourself?

[10:44]

I lived in a haunted house. When I was a kid we lived in a haunted house on a farm. So apparently the answer is yes, there must be energies that continue. I mean, this is actually what Rev was talking about, there's energy that continues after people are dead, you know of it in what you're holding on to in the form of resentments or acting out in various ways which you attribute to people who are already dead and gone. Isn't that true? Are any of you influenced by thoughts related to people who are no longer among the living? I know very well, I felt very well that when my grandma on my mother's side,

[11:51]

she committed suicide in 1992 and I really could, for example during my own psychoanalysis, I really could feel this kind of, let's say, dark, very heavy, very closed feeling and kind of energy that is still kind of part of me as well. And I kind of connect this to what you just said. Yes? I'm not sure what you mean by no continuity, like the woman who was, who became very upset about who you could see there is no continuity. In what sense? In what sense? That we are not some fixed entity which continues moment after moment. The understanding of ourselves is actually empty of own being and arising fresh on each moment in response to the causes and conditions of this moment which we call pratityasamutpada. Somebody help me with the English just now? Interdependent co-arising.

[12:53]

Thank you. It was a threat to her sense of her own history? It was a threat to her sense of her own existence as a continuous person. So she wanted to have like a soul? Well she wanted to have a self. A self. In one moment, a self. Well for her that wasn't good enough. Is it good enough for you? Yeah. Right there when I asked, when I answered you, yes. Anyhow, it's not, you know, it's not my favorite thought. I like to think that, you know, there's certainly a part of me likes to think I was born on May 8th, 1926 and that's the same person that I am right now and will be for however much longer I have.

[13:54]

I mean there is certainly a part of me that thinks like that and that gets a little shaky when I realize that this is not actually how we exist. I mean I understand her concern. It was just that it was very marked. I mean she couldn't even discuss it. It was just too distressing. Yes. But even if, I mean I've looked at pictures of myself and I think, wow, he's back. So cute. Yes. I've read in various places that if the concept of a lack of continuity doesn't distress you somewhat, it's probably because you're not actually able to do anything. Because you're not actually understanding the scope of that statement. Yes, I threw that out there because I just wonder how many of you actually give any thought

[15:13]

to what the Buddhist understanding of dependent co-arising is actually saying in your own life. Somebody over here. Why don't we just turn it off for now and if I need it to read, I will turn it on. I keep trying to find out what angle I can do this light so that it doesn't distress people. Yeah, but then it was... I see, okay. Right now, let's do without it. But are you aware of actions in your life which have left some incomplete energy that's still bouncing around and causing difficulties? I mean, in 12-step programs, they're talking about making amends.

[16:17]

What? In 12-step programs, they're talking about making amends. Yeah, yeah. Acknowledging that there have been actions of body, speech and mind that have been done with self-clinging. If you look at those kinds of actions, don't you notice that there's some self-concern at the core of them? Yes. It seems like our whole way-seeking mind is kind of bringing up with everything that's still facing us. All the actions and all the situations that we're still holding in. Yeah, yeah. I recall a time when, maybe I mentioned this already, when all the new people were doing way-seeking mind talks and one time I said, well, that's not fair. What about some of the old people doing way-seeking mind talks? We don't know who you are either. So I said, okay.

[17:18]

And I was thinking about it. Wow, you know, I could tell the story of my idyllic childhood or I could tell the story of my deprived childhood or my difficult childhood and they'd both be true. And, you know, it's not like it's all one way or another. But there's no point in me getting stuck on either one of them because that's past. Someone asked me once in Dzogchen, what's wasting time? It says on the Han, don't waste time. And it says in Sando Kai, don't waste time. And in various places, don't waste time. And I couldn't come up with much of an answer at the moment. And then the next person that came in was talking about some resentment they had from childhood.

[18:20]

And I thought, that's wasting time. Whatever that is, to hang on to this old resentment and keep chewing on it and keep making oneself miserable over what happened then is a wasting time. You know, how can we let go of those things and face our life at this moment with some freshness? How can we say, this is what happened in the past and I don't want to keep dragging it with me because it's too painful? I often find that there's things that I carry with me and go on. Periodically there's some piece that's unresolved that I'm not facing. It's like I'm holding on to this one piece that's painful and very familiar but not sitting with the other part that is painful in a very different way

[19:25]

and it's when I can sit with the and, the other, usually a feeling piece underneath that I didn't want to go. I'm like hanging on to a thought, staying away from a feeling. And when I get to the feeling then the whole thing kind of passes. It's my experience with old feelings or feelings that are called repressed feelings is they don't pass until you feel them. But if you can actually allow yourself to feel the feeling, the physical sensation of the feeling, you can begin to relinquish it. If you stay in the thinking about it, as you say, it kind of builds, it kind of keeps the engine going. Does that need time and space now? It may need time and space now, yes. If you haven't felt the feelings and they're coming up then you need to feel the feelings.

[20:29]

You don't need to get into the story about them and keep retelling the story, which is what we often do. So what does it mean to feel feelings? In your body. Is there a breakdown, a cry, a shout? No, no. If anger arises, what does it say in the Great Mindfulness Sutra? If anger arises, the monk says, anger has arisen. So the first thing is to recognize it. The second thing is to see where do you feel it in your body. Sometimes anger I feel in a clenched jaw. Sometimes I feel it in a clenched stomach. Sometimes I feel it in a closed heart. I'm talking about actually feeling, like physical sensation.

[21:30]

But also part of that is to be fully aware. But to be fully aware of what you're feeling, not the story about whose fault it is, what you're going to do about it to fix it. Whose fault it is, it's past. What you're going to do to fix it is future. What's happening now? What's actually happening now? What is the experience that you're feeling in this moment? Not that you're thinking about, but that you're feeling. We're not so used to doing this, so I'm not surprised that you're kind of furrowing your brow and trying to figure out what I'm talking about. Now that I'm thinking of this happening and wondering, was I totally feeling that? Or was I, you know, it's sort of a muddle. It sounds so clear. Yeah. And there's definitely a feeling there, right? But is it, I mean, I guess you're saying your experience is, oh, you feel it and then it goes away. Well, I may have to give it a lot of attention. I may have to keep breathing with it.

[22:33]

I may have a real knot that does not want to open up. I worked with one where my breathing was not flowing freely. There was a real closure at some point at a physical location. And I kept offering my breath to it and offering my breath to it. And I realized I was offering my breath to it because I wanted it to go away. Not because I wanted to be aware of it or take care of it or just be with it or feel it. Because I wanted it to go away. And I realized, oh, I'm going to have to be willing. It's taken 40 years to get there. I'm going to have to be willing for this to be here the rest of my life. And I'm going to have to be willing to let go of it. Either one has to be okay. I have to be willing for it to be what it is and do what it does and just be with it as it is and not try to fix it.

[23:42]

Not try to get rid of it or hold on to it, but just be with it and feel it and let it be what it is. Not long after I realized that and just staying with it, trying to really cultivate the willingness to have it stay or go. But just to feel it. It wasn't so very long after that that it began to open up. But the first thing I had to realize was I was trying to feel it to get rid of it. Not really to really feel it, but just enough to get rid of it. When I talk about an experience like that, I'm talking about two or three days of session. I'm not talking about it happening in a minute. I'm talking about just sitting with this and sitting with this. I had at that time, the image came to me, it was like granite.

[24:47]

And then I remembered a photograph in a National Geographic. Someone with a telephoto lens had photographed a ledge on a cliff face where there was an eagle's nest. And right above the eagle's nest was a declivity in the cliff face that had been formed by generations, the wingtips of generations of eagle mothers feeding their eagle babies on that ledge. And so then I thought of each breath as a feather brushing this granite whatever in my breathing. And then after doing that for a while, I realized I was still, I wanted it to go away.

[25:51]

I was doing this as a technique to get it to go away, not as really feeling the sensation. And that's the point at which I began to feel it in a different way. Digression, excuse me. Your story has a happy ending, but maybe it wouldn't go away, right? That's right, that's right. It would just keep going, and for the rest of your life it would be there. That's right, that's right. There's a really nice Neera Ratna story, where Neera Ratna is up in this cave meditating and everything is going smoothly. But one day he comes home and there's all these demons in this cave. And he tries various mantras, some of them go away, and he does eight prayers, and some of them go away. And he says, ah, maybe these are the spirits of the place, we need to appease them, so we appease these mortals. But there's still some that are stubborn. And then he tries to, I think, love them.

[26:53]

And then all but a few go away. But finally he says, okay, demons, whether you stay or you go, it's all the same to me. And it's only when it gets to that point, they all fly away. So, yeah, this is the same as Eric was saying, maybe. But it really has to be. Yeah. It's just what it is. It's just what it is. Is there a possibility that demons can give us strength also? I don't know, give us strength for compassion and action? I don't know. Is that your experience? In comic books, but... No, no, I don't know. I don't know, it's getting a little speculative and cerebral for me, Peter.

[27:54]

I don't know. But what I do know is that if we hold on to... negative feelings, they continue to cause us pain. And only by just not grasping them. Not clinging either way, not clinging by pushing or clinging by pulling. Both are a kind of clinging. I think only in that way do they stop hurting us or causing us suffering or causing us to do actions which may cause suffering to others as well.

[29:03]

Yes? I guess I've always found the idea of the non-consciousness to be very relieving. And I'm wondering if maybe you can elaborate on the idea that if you're not being anxious by it, then you have to release it. Could you indicate a bit more of the definition? Indicate a bit more of the what? The depth, maybe? Or the consciousness? Thinking that it's a relieving thought that you're releasing. Well, I think that there is something implied in what we've been talking about is that there is, as long as our actions are done with full awareness... In the first place, if our actions are done with full awareness, we are not likely to produce leftover energy.

[30:17]

Because it's not like the precepts or some rules out there that we have to check in and see. It's like the precepts aren't in us, so if we're fully aware of what we're doing, if we're about to do something that is harmful, we'll feel some hesitation and we won't do it. If we're acting without full awareness, we may find ourselves doing actions that do have leftover energy. We call it karma. Karma actually just means action. The technical word for the results of action, volitional action, willful action, action done by a self, is karma.

[31:25]

And the word for the resultant is called vipaka. But the way karma has come into the English language, and I don't know how it is in Europe, how it's come in to be used in other languages, but the way it's come into the language, we speak of it as if karma were the result, or you've got bad karma, like you're carrying the result of bad actions from the past, but actually the word simply means volitional action. But action based on a thought of self. So if you're actually acting not based on a thought of self, but acting with full awareness in the moment, you're not likely to leave leftover energy. Because you'll notice, oh, this is maybe not to do, or not to say.

[32:26]

I don't know if that's at all responsive to your question. Yes? Go ahead. When you ask me to waste my time, I notice in myself, when my personal demons start coming to me in a strong way, I do things like multitasking, softening the blow, like turning compost, for example, and paying attention to this feeling, and it's such a strong sensation, this smell, this sight, what you're doing, or cooking, that somebody suggested to me, often it's making a mess, it's a ghost, and he's been working wonders with art, or another one, activity that's like a moratorium on karma,

[33:40]

it's actually softened, and your awareness of the things that you're doing, it works on your awareness also, this sight, 10,000 things. Yeah, Trungpa Rinpoche, when he first came to this country, was speaking at Zen Center, and he smoked, and he also drank, and somewhere toward the end of the talk, someone said something about, what good is it doing for all beings, how is it saving all beings, just sitting, I can't remember how the question was, but he said, how many people are here, maybe 200, and you've been here for almost two hours, and nobody's caused anybody any trouble,

[34:45]

and all that, that's not bad. Yeah. And then somebody else started ranting at him for smoking, and setting all these bad examples, and so forth, and I was walking down the hall with Suzuki Roshi, after the talk, and he said, if only people could see how he's teaching them. Suzuki Roshi appreciated Trungpa Rinpoche as a teacher. Is somebody over here? Yeah. Okay, so here's what gets under my skin. So what seems to keep coming up in this chapter is, in the beginning, he gives the quote, a tiger catches a mouse with his whole strength, and it seems to keep coming up, performing actions and leaving no trace, completely with the whole body and mind,

[35:48]

you mentioned earlier, that volitional action is what results in karma, and such. The best way is to make karma work on the voidness of space. The problem is, you can't just up and decide to do that. And if you do, that's volitional action. How does one practice this? It's the same with zazen. You have this presumably goal-less practice, but even to put on a robe, you walk into a Zen temple, you sit down, you try to do this. It's a paradox. What is it we're trying to do? That's the interesting thing. What is this non-doing that they talk about in Buddhism? It's in Zen all the time. This is a great question. My son said to me, what do you mean no desires?

[36:50]

Don't you desire enlightenment? I don't have a clue about what enlightenment is. I think I desire harmlessness. More than anything else. I think what he's suggesting here is that karma comes from acting out of an idea of a separate self. So all we can really do, or all I know really to do, is just to notice when that idea of a separate self arises and be careful.

[37:51]

That's really all I understand how to do. But I have some confidence that if I'm paying attention, or that when I'm paying attention, harm doesn't seem to occur. And when I'm not paying attention, harm seems to occur. That's just what I notice. Even if it's just small harm still. Someone's feelings are hurt. Maybe just slightly, but even so. That the more I'm present and aware, the less likely harm will occur. It feels to me very provisional.

[39:10]

What do you mean by provisional? It seems like, well, since you can't do that, well, try doing these little things. And that's like the next best thing. Really, the instruction. But at the same time, it's a sort of helpful thing. It's like the ultimate teaching as well. Make karma work on voidness. Make what? Make karma work on voidness. Well, I think what he's saying there is don't cling to self. As I say, the only thing I know is to be aware when this, when I notice this thought of self arising and get cautious. It sharpens my attention when I notice that. Yes? I kind of have two things.

[40:20]

One is from a while ago, but this part awakens for me the sense that a thought of self doesn't always arise as hi, I'm a thought of self. It's like a little intention. And it seems like a good intention or a harmless intention. But then some energy will come up around it. It's like, maybe there's a problem here. And then the self comes in to override it and do what I want. I think where I've seen karma come up is when I try to, oh, there's an awareness but I'm resisting the awareness and I override it. It's like a willful thing. You try not to do so much, but I have to, to know the feeling, and it's almost as if that feeling is a thought of self, not someone else. Yeah, yeah. And the earlier thing I had was about

[41:21]

stories. Well, you said they're a willful thing and that's exactly volitional action. Exactly. And it's about exchanges with pure thoughts. I think it was with Peter about the story and it seems to me, I kind of want to speak up for story in a way. It's my background, it's my conditioning. The sense that story, I mean, there is that story that you get trapped in that just recycles and repeats and you get caught in the analysis and it's just consumption. But there's also a story that's the door that opens to feeling. And I think sometimes maybe that's even more trying to find the door and the story that opens. I mean, sometimes it's closing the door. But sometimes telling the story or finding a new angle or vision or image in the story opens to feeling. Yeah, what I'm trying to caution against

[42:24]

is telling, retelling, [...] retelling. And if you notice that happening, you'll see in it, I think, the kind of, this is finding someone to blame or finding some way to get even or something you're going to do in the future to take care of it. I should tell them or or finding something in the past to dwell on. And I think both of those things I'm saying that both of those things don't take care

[43:25]

of the energy that's happening with attention to what's happening in physical sensations in your body can give you the opportunity to take care of what's happening. Yeah, I think that's probably a fairly common experience. But I'm a little curious about what's the importance of someone else hearing the story. Well, Doc, I don't have any ready answer to that question. That's a good question. But

[44:26]

I do know in my experience that sometimes it's easier to relinquish and it's easier for me to have some kind response to my own sensations uncomfortable sensations. When I can get it out of my system in some way and be met with a kind of compassionate response. I know that in sitting with hospital patients mostly what they needed was somebody who would just sit and listen and comment and actually hear what was going on with them and that would discharge a lot of

[45:28]

stuff. So I don't know what's important about it. Yeah, I think it's fairly common. And I think if I think if I learned my job better in Doksan, I would listen more than I talk. I talk too much because I do think you're right. I think that the most significant thing that happens in Doksan and practice discussion is somebody is hearing you and not judging. Well, shall we get a start on the next one or what do you think? About what? This previous one?

[46:29]

Yeah. As we were reading all this stuff about food and the parable about just taking food, I kept and put it in their bowls for dinner. And he thought this was such a great teaching. And I was completely revolted by that story. And I thought, what an abusive jerk the teacher was. And it just kept coming up as I was reading the story. Gosh, I'll remember that story. I don't know that I have anything to say about it. I remember a time when we made some curry down here when Katagiri Roshi was leading the practice and it was too hot to eat. And

[47:29]

so it got diluted in the gruel the next night, you know, the medicine bowl. It was still too hot to eat. And at that time we used to make gruel bread. We would take the gruel and add flour and stuff and bake bread and serve that. So they put the gruel bread. And finally he said, you could throw it out. The third time it came around. So I don't know. I'm not sure what Kyokuchin Soen was responding to, whether it was don't waste food or whether it was don't be naughty boys. I don't know. Suzuki Roshi speaks of him both in two ways. One way as being extremely strict. He said,

[48:31]

that's why he calls, he says, you know, everybody else ran away. I was too dumb to run away. On the other hand, he talks about him with great love and devotion as having been a wonderful teacher. I know Katagiri Roshi talked about his teacher too. He said it was so hard that he ran away from the temple. I don't know, he was going up a road, down a road somewhere. And he just kind of collapsed and fell asleep. And he woke up and what he saw was the full moon. And he went back to the temple. So I don't know. There's something about this hard training that both of them spoke of. Both that it was

[49:34]

really, really hard. And there was something about it also that they really, really appreciated. Katagiri Roshi, the story I love about Katagiri Roshi and his teacher is I guess they must have just the two of them lived at the temple together. He was his Anja. And he would prepare his bath every night. And you know, in a small temple like that, there's a state in a temple like that with Jyotishin-san and I was visiting and so I was the guest and so I had to take the first bath. So this is this copper tub with a little wooden platform that kind of floats in it. And there's a fire underneath it. There's a wood fire underneath it. So you don't want to touch the sides

[50:34]

of the tub. Anyhow, so it was his job to make the fire and get the bath ready. And I had that experience too at Green Gulch. We had a wood fire before for Nakamura sensei, although it was not a copper pot. I mean, I felt like I was being cooked in there. You know, being the guest, I was, I had to take the first bath because that's, that's hospitality. But it had to be really hot so it wouldn't be too cold for people who took bath after me, so it was really hot. But he would prepare the bath and then his teacher would get in and he'd say, shall I scrub your back? No. Every day. Shall I scrub your back? No. But he just kept thinking, I ought to scrub his back. So one day he just picked up the loofer or whatever it was and started scrubbing his back. And he's just, ah. But as long as he

[51:37]

was asking, as long as he just didn't do what was obvious, you know, unless he asked permission, no. But when he did it, he clearly appreciated it. I don't know how long that went on. It was very interesting. This kind of, this kind of very close hanging out together with teacher and student, you know, we don't have so much an opportunity to do where you live in a temple with your teacher, maybe you and two or three other students, and that's it. We don't have that happening so much here. More temples? Maybe so. More teachers.

[52:38]

This always really intrigues me because we have these founding teachers and these teachers who were like perhaps abusive jerks, right? But on the other hand, they produced the teachers who produced what we're doing now. So, one, why weren't they abusive jerks to us? And two, you know, like, where are the abusive jerk teachers who produced the school-like Zen Master teachers? This is a serious question. Our approach is so much different. Yeah. And if we tried to serve value-added pickles, it just wouldn't happen. part of me worries that something is being lost, to be honest. I just don't know. That's what I was talking about with Kiyosaku. Incidentally, there is an issue of Tri-Cycle, which Catherine

[53:38]

lent me, which right now I lent Maya. I wonder, Catherine, if we could put it up on the reserve shelf, and may us through, that there are seven different views of Kiyosaku, and a discussion of it in Tri-Cycle, in the section on practice. It might be interesting to look at it. Yeah, I mentioned that myself. I have some concern about that, in that there has to be some toughness in training to take away the kind of ego supports that we hang on to. That's always

[54:41]

kind and compassionate, but it's not always experienced as kind and compassionate. That is, it's kind and compassionate because the longer we hold on to the ego supports, you know, the more we cling to ego, and the more pain we get ourselves into. So, you know, you bring up a real question that I don't really know the answer to. But, yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to say something about the toughness that has to be commensurate with the culture that it's in. when we read that story about the pickles, yeah, I had the same feeling. It was like, really, really bad. But, you know, they didn't have enough to eat, for one thing. You know,

[55:41]

they didn't have the kind of, you know, walk-in and storehouse full of food that we have here at Tassajara, you know, in the truck coming in every couple of days with more food. So, I think you have to look at it in the context of one thing, of they're just really poor, and everyone else was really poor and didn't have a lot of food. So, I think that's a big factor. so, I think it doesn't, toughness in one situation doesn't really translate exactly into another. So, like, what is, you know, I feel like for us, just exactly following the Tassajara schedule is, is pretty good. And there's a certain toughness in that. anyway, I think it's a live question, but it has to be something that works for us. And I think Suzuki Roshi,

[56:41]

I mean, obviously understood that, that if he was going to do that kind of practice, you know, in pastry, he wasn't going to have Well, he actually really struggled with whether to have a large, you know, whether to work with a large group as he was doing, or whether to take, you know, the handful of his closest students and go off somewhere with them and just work with them. And he struggled with this question. He didn't, you know. Well, you know, we've had times, too, when we were not as affluent as we are now. It was a question of cutting out the butter. That's right. It was a question of cutting out the butter. It was a question of deciding we could not afford to get any nuts but peanuts. But we never went hungry. No, no, we never went hungry. That's right. Except, except the time

[57:44]

that they got snowed in. You know, you remember, Casa Hortenso's ordered a lot of dry goods in September and October because in 1968 when the road got obliterated, there was not a lot of dry goods and they were sort of eating split pea soup every day with whatever kind of bread they could make or croutons from yesterday. Anyhow, there was, there was about a month there when, you know, now we order a lot of dry goods so there's always stuff there. Yeah? I just also want to mention that even during Shakyamuni's time, his cousin Devadatta broke with him because he thought Shakyamuni was not ascetic enough in terms of the practice. He actually took a lot of months with him. So it's been an ongoing issue throughout the millenniums. It's not something that's just occurring now. Well, the Buddha, you know, broke with the ascetics that he was practicing with

[58:44]

and practically starved himself to death and they at first were not going to speak to him because he hadn't been strong enough as an ascetic. It's time.

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